Architectural Technologist Register

4Sticks · 21-07-2014 12:57pm

on Friday 18th July 2014 the CIAT issued the following advice note of the above meeting to its members:

Dear Member

Architectural Technologists’ Register meeting update

Following a meeting with Aidan O’Connor and Martin Vaughan at the DECLG, which was also attended by representatives of the RIAI, I would confirm the following:

Minister Kelly has not yet been briefed (he had been in post less than one-week)
The commitment to develop Architectural Technologists’ Registers is supported by the Minister (this would be ongoing with the new Minister) and Department
There could be two Registers (CIAT’s and RIAI’s)
CIAT made clear our position that our Register would hold competent Architectural Technologists in relation to the intention of acting as an Assigned Certify (sic) and Design Certifier
John Graby, RIAI Director General said that he could make no such statement
CIAT would be working with the various stakeholders across Ireland to gain support for a Statutory Register
Any potential Statutory Register would need to be supported by primary legislation
This is separate to the inclusion in the S.I.09 of 2014 the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations in relation to certification; the Minister can include the Register without the need for additional primary legislation.
CIAT is to launch its Voluntary Register before the end of July.CIAT is to start liaising with the necessary stakeholders in preparation of a Statutory Register for Architectural Technologists. Those on the Statutory Register for Architectural Technologists established by CIAT will be competent to lead projects of all sizes from conception through to completion AND act as the Design Certifier and Assigned Certifier – we will continue to work with the Minister, Department and stakeholders in this regard.

At the time of writing we are not aware of any statement being issued by the DECLG or by the RIAI to its Architectural Technologist members in relation to the above meeting. We asked the RIAI to provide a statement prior to publication but this has not been forthcoming at this time.

The RIAI should butt out now as they have no honest role to play in these talks.
They are clearly there to frustrate competition to the advantage of their primary members i.e Architects.
Any Architectural Technician who continues to pay fees to the RIAI after this is a fool undermining himself / herself and all other Architectural Technicians

topcatcbr · 21-07-2014 5:34pm

4Sticks wrote: »

The RIAI should butt out now as they have no honest role to play in these talks.
They are clearly there to frustrate competition to the advantage of their primary members i.e Architects.
Any Architectural Technician who continues to pay fees to the RIAI after this is a fool undermining himself / herself and all other Architectural Technicians

I think the only real reason they have as much support is because practice's that pay staffs fees often limit the fees to certain orgs.

I know government bodies do this. I doubt many self respecting tech would volunteer their own money to the RIAI. I know I wouldn't.

Bazlyons · 31-07-2014 8:48am

I’m new to this forum but have been following it recently.

I published some thoughts on the BRegs Forum in May 2014 on a register for Architectural Technologists which also addresses the recently published RIAI “policy” on Techs. I can post a link as I'm a new member here. so i'll repost it in a reply

If you are a Technologist and think the RIAI are the way forward then you pretty much deserve everything you won’t get.

I’ve been an RIAI Tech ‘member’ for 6 years (as a condition of my PI Insurance) and have never got anything for my €240. Their mandate is to protect Architects and if that means standing on Techs then so be it.

The CIAT are the only way forward. I’ve recently completed membership and my PI Insurance costs alone have halved through them because it's Tech Specific. The process isn't onerous any more.

As of this morning the CIAT have their voluntary Register operational with a view to it getting statutory recognition in the future. You don’t have to be a CIAT member to be on this register, just demonstrate competence.

The website is even due to go live this week at architecturaltechnologistsregister.ie

What have the RIAI done to this end so far? Nothing.

Techs should forget about progressing with the IATGN, RIAI or some new organisation and put our weight behind an already established organisation who only represent Techs, know what they are, respect the profession and are ready and willing to operate a register. Any other option sets us back minimum 5 years.

This is a no brainer

Bazlyons · 31-07-2014 8:50am

My piece from the Building Regs Forum

A few thoughts on the establishment of a Register of Architectural Technologists

Let me begin by stating a few things. I’m taking from reading posts on this forum that most people on here agree on the following;

1. The current building control system is no better for the consumer than the old system and should be scrapped.

But now that we’re stuck with the system…

2. The exclusion of Architectural Technologists from acting in the role of the Assigned Certifier is baffling and a serious oversight and should be corrected immediately.

3. A register of Architectural Technologists should be established to ensure competence.

If we accept that a register needs to happen, and it seems even Minister Hogan is leaning that way, then serious consideration needs to be given now as to how this is established and who maintains the register. To try and get the Minister’s Department to rectify two of his mistakes could be a lifetime’s work.

As far as I see it there are three options (four if you include do nothing, which let’s face isn’t beyond the bounds of possibility)

Option 1: Establish an Independent Registration Body.

I think we can safely assume this will take months of talking as to how to best establish such a body and probably wouldn’t happen within the lifetime of this Government or mine.

Let’s call that the Nuclear option.

Option 2: Ask the Chartered Institute of Architectural Technologists CIAT to establish and manage the register of Architectural Technologists in Ireland.

The CIAT is already establishing a “CIAT-operated Register” in the Republic of Ireland for Architectural Technologists competent in certification of design and compliance. This will be open to all professionals who can demonstrate competence and would not be restricted to CIAT members.

The CIAT is the UK’s Competent Authority for Chartered Architectural Technologists and already has systems in place to determine competency levels in the same way the RIAI and SCSI did for their Registers and has many Irish Members already. Cost and time for this option are negligible.

Full disclosure, I’m currently going through the process of becoming a Member myself.

Option 3: Let the RIAI establish a second Register in accordance with their policy statement below, reissued only this week:

At the 7th March 2014, the RIAI Council voted to support in principle the following policy in relation to Architectural Technologists:

1.RIAI will set up an RIAI Register of Architectural Technologists immediately.

2.RIAI acknowledges and will support the need for a Statutory Register of Architectural Technologists.

3.RIAI will promote such a statutory Registered Architectural Technologist as a competent person to:

(a) Carry out Performance Calculation & Technical Design in accordance with
Building Regulations
(b) Certify Performance Calculation and Technical Design carried out in accordance in
Building Regulations
(c) Inspect the construction of buildings as required to certify compliance with
Building Regulations
4.The RIAI will support the development and establishment of an Architectural Technologist Register Admissions Examination (ATRAE) for purposes of entry to the Statutory Register of Architectural Technologists. The examination should be at a level which recognises the education, experience and skills of the Architectural Technologist.

5.RIAI will develop and establish an RIAI Code of Conduct and a Professional Conduct Committee for professional practice as a Registered Architectural Technologist.

As a reluctant Technician Member of the RIAI (a condition of my PI Insurance cover) I have serious reservations about allowing the RIAI establish and maintain this register.

In my time as a Technician Member of the RIAI (c. 5 years) I can honestly say I don’t remember a single thing that the RIAI have done specifically for Technologists. We pay our fees, still have to do the 40 hours of CPD and yet are barred from even signing the RIAI certs of compliance with Planning and Building Regulations on projects we’ve designed and supervised ourselves. To be fair, I do get a nice sticker for my letter head though.

In relation to certifying I’d draw your attention point 3(c) in the above policy statement.

…RIAI will promote such a statutory Registered Architectural Technologist as a competent person to … Inspect the construction of buildings as required to certify compliance with Building Regulations.

Did you see it… Inspect, but not actually certify themselves.

In case you’re thinking this is a wilfully dishonest reading of the wording check out point 3(b) where they specifically state “Certify Performance Calculation and Technical Design carried out in accordance in Regulations”

This is the worry.

The RIAI are there to protect their members, Architects. As a Technologist I’m not convinced this aim wouldn’t be best served by restricting the ability of Technologists to act in the role of Assigned certifier. And we haven’t even started on the time it’ll take to establish their register, put the systems in place to determine competency levels, etc etc. Actually let’s call this the Nuclear Option.

I’m speaking in a personal capacity here and not on behalf of the CIAT or any other technologist but as a Technologist, should Registration ever happen, I’d like it to be handled by an authority who has a proven track record in acting for Architectural Technologists, has the capacity and resources to establish the Register without delay and most importantly is willing to do so.

The CIAT is the only logical option.

BryanF · 31-07-2014 11:50am

Bazlyons wrote: »

As of this morning the CIAT have their voluntary Register operational with a view to it getting statutory recognition in the future. You don’t have to be a CIAT member to be on this register, just demonstrate competence.

The website is even due to go live this week at architecturaltechnologistsregister.ie

how do you access the register to request inclusion - please comeback and tell us when it goes live

Bazlyons · 31-07-2014 11:59am

Applications for this register only opened yesterday.

Initially the CIAT have written to their members to get on the register but included the following note on the email issued yesterday.

"All non-Chartered Members of CIAT or unregistered Architectural Technologists will need to demonstrate competence to join the Register and pay a €150 fee; the information for achieving this will be found on the Register’s website"

Presumably once the website is live this information will be on it for non-members. Obviously there is a process for demonstrating competence to be allowed onto the register otherwise there'd be little point in having it at all. I imagine the process will be less onerous (and certainly cheaper) than trying to get on the Architect's Register.

CIAT members have already gone through a similar process and are therefore eligible to join.

4Sticks · 31-07-2014 4:07pm

It is live now

No6 · 31-07-2014 4:36pm

HHmmm Maybe not quite!!! I am only getting a hosting message!! Nevertheless well done CIAT for actually doing something.

Bazlyons · 31-07-2014 4:37pm

Not quite yet. I was giving them the rest of the week to iron out bugs. :-)

Bazlyons · 31-07-2014 9:42pm

The ATR is live now.

Bazlyons · 27-08-2014 6:45pm

The CIAT's AT register is live and fortunately Techs are joining and supporting it but it could be two years to achieve statutory recognition. In the meantime here's a workaround I found out today that could enable MCIAT to act as DC/AC under the BC(A)R.

CABE in the UK accept MCIAT as members. Membership of CABE enables entry onto the Building Surveyors register here. It's crap we have to come up with a work around considering we're more than qualified but needs must.

I've already lost out on one project this week by not being able to offer AC services.

No6 · 28-08-2014 1:35pm

Have any MCIAT's got on to the surveyors register this way Baz, I know a lot of guys have tried a few routes but SUSI were a bit resistant!!

Bazlyons · 28-08-2014 3:02pm

Hey No6

I know of one so far. Be warned though they have a lot of experience (20yrs + like myself)

You apply to the Register and submit a "report", similar to what we submitted to CIAT outlining education, work, experience etc as a building surveyor (eg surveys, project management Planning, FSC and DAC applications etc.) play down the Architecture angle and up the site and PM elements.

Put it this was. it's easier for an experienced Tech to get on the Building Surveyors register than accepted into the Royals Register.

Bazlyons · 29-08-2014 2:24pm

Email from RIAI today about their establishment of a voluntary register for Technologists.

I'm of a mind to tell them not to include me on it as I'm 100% behind the CIAT register instead. What is everyone else's view?

No6 · 30-08-2014 4:36am

with a view to get them to act as assigned and design certifiers or as ancillary certifiers only?

Bazlyons · 30-08-2014 9:20am

I've emailed John Graby for clarification.

No6 · 01-09-2014 6:47am

Good luck with that I wrote to him two years ago resigning from the RIAI and I still haven't got a response!!

Bazlyons · 01-09-2014 9:46am

i'm going to hound him until i get a response

No6 · 03-09-2014 6:52am

Hi BAz can you please post the content of the notice? I haven't seen it yet

Bazlyons · 03-09-2014 2:51pm

No 6 - Content below

Dear ....

As you will know from a previous circulation, the RIAI intends to set up a Voluntary Register of Architectural Technologists. There is a commitment from the DECLG to advance a Statutory Register for Architectural Technologists but this RIAI Register, at this time, does not have a Statutory basis.

In order to satisfy Date Protection issue, you have a choice of either:
1. Showing the full address held by the RIAI as above or as you may wish to see it corrected or
2. Simply showing your Region ie: Dublin 2, Tipperary etc.

I would be grateful if you could respond by 8th September at the latest. If no response is received, it will be assumed that you have no objection to your full address being shown on the Voluntary Register. The RIAI sees the Voluntary Register as an important step in reinforcing the role of Architectural Technologists.

Regards,

No6 · 04-09-2014 6:29am

That should be interesting so, the RIAI are going to self populate their register with all their members so they can claim they have more than CIAT, classic

Glebee · 04-09-2014 8:09am

No6 wrote: »

That should be interesting so, the RIAI are going to self populate their register with all their members so they can claim they have more than CIAT, classic

How many tech members would RIAI have?

No6 · 04-09-2014 1:37pm

They used to have over 300 but I am sure its fallen below that by now, any RIAI techs there!!

Supertech · 04-09-2014 5:04pm

No6 wrote: »

They used to have over 300 but I am sure its fallen below that by now, any RIAI techs there!!

Around 230, and still applications going in, including a raft of people applying to take the AT entry exam. The mind boggles.

sydthebeat · 04-09-2014 5:15pm

I wonder are the college's still shoe horning graduates to riai?
Absolutely disgraceful if they are.

Bazlyons · 05-09-2014 11:28am

Re: the RIAI Register of Technologists

Just got off the phone with John Graby asked him the following questions. (I’m paraphrasing the conversation but the essence is correct)

Me: If in time the RIAI Voluntary Register of Architectural Technologists achieves statutory recognition, will the RIAI deem Architectural Technologists on their register competent to act in the roles of Design Certifier and/or Assigned Certifier and specified under the BC(A)R?

John: It’s not within the gift of the RIAI to say that Technologists on their register are competent to act on as assigned and design certifiers. That determination will be made by the Department of the Environment.

Me: Ok but will the RIAI be making a case to the Department that Architectural Technologists on their register are competent to act in these roles?

John: There is no policy defined by the RIAI in relation to this yet.

I’ll be writing today to ensure my name does not appear on this sham register.

No6 · 05-09-2014 1:15pm

Bazlyons wrote: »

John: There is no policy defined by the RIAI in relation to this yet.

Well thats definative, round us all up and avoid having a policy defined for ever!! I am afriad that Architectural Technologists supporting the RIAI position is like turkeys voting for Christmas!! So if you like cranberry sauce, go for it!!

Bazlyons · 09-09-2014 12:19pm

No6 wrote: »

Have any MCIAT's got on to the surveyors register this way Baz, I know a lot of guys have tried a few routes but SUSI were a bit resistant!!

Got confirmation of my membership of CABE today. Will be doing the application for the Building Surveyors Register over the Weekend.

Will keep you updated.

Bazlyons · 16-10-2014 11:28am

Confirmed acceptance onto the Building Surveyors Register received today.

I suggest this route for Arch Tech's while we're waiting for out own Register.

sydthebeat · 16-10-2014 11:40am

Bazlyons wrote: »

Confirmed acceptance onto the Building Surveyors Register received today.

I suggest this route for Arch Tech's while we're waiting for out own Register.

did you go straight on, or around the houses?

did they accept architectural technology as being comparable with a surveyors course?

Bazlyons · 16-10-2014 11:54am

Syd,

I cant answer the course question as i didn't go direct. They basically took my experience in the role of a Building Surveyor.

The route i took was.

I became a member of CIAT, which allowed me join CABE in the UK, membership of which is acceptable to be on the BS Register.

While it seems around the houses it's a lot less crap than trying to get on the RIAI one.

I started the process in February, made my full submission to CIAT in April, had my CIAT interview in July and rest followed from there.

Once i was in CABE getting on the Register was really just a CV.

sydthebeat · 16-10-2014 12:51pm

Bazlyons wrote: »

Syd,

I cant answer the course question as i didn't go direct. They basically took my experience in the role of a Building Surveyor.

The route i took was.

I became a member of CIAT, which allowed me join CABE in the UK, membership of which is acceptable to be on the BS Register.

While it seems around the houses it's a lot less crap than trying to get on the RIAI one.

I started the process in February, made my full submission to CIAT in April, had my CIAT interview in July and rest followed from there.

Once i was in CABE getting on the Register was really just a CV.

much appreciated, thanks baz

jsn.mcclintock · 30-10-2014 5:36pm

Been registered on boards since 2010 but this is my first post, better make it a good one!

I'm currently employed full time as a technician/technologist by a small architecture/engineering firm since the beginning of this year, with a year and a half part time employment with them before that. I've got a BSc in Architectural Technology Level 7 which I graduated from in 2010, I never did get round to advancing to Level 8. I'm extremely, stupidly lucky to have found full time employment in a position I went to college for with no previous experience less than half an hour from where I live. I've been involved in a good few large/medium/small scale projects through all the different phases.

I've only recently started looking into this whole professional qualifications business so I'm just looking for some advice. Should I try and register with the newly set up ATR or would there be a benefit to me applying to CIAT? At the minute I have no real need to have the ability to be the DC or AC for any projects we undertake as the architect who employs me covers that base and his brother is also a chartered engineer within the firm.

Also a general question regarding membership, do I need to provide my own personal PI insurance or would I be covered under the firm's insurance?

atech · 31-10-2014 12:09am

Only chartered architectural technologists can get on the CIAT register hence the reason less than 200 technologists have signed up to it so far.

With only 4 years experience I'm not sure if you will have sufficient experience to become chartered.
Also I may be wrong but If you don't have a level 8 degree I think you may need to become a TCIAT before you can progress to MCIAT.

Regards the PI Insurance, as a member of CIAT if you are providing services for clients you need PII.

If the clients are part of the company the company PII will suffice but if you want to do private work on the side you'll need your own as the company PII probably won't cover that.

Bazlyons · 31-10-2014 9:41am

Hi jsn.mcclintock

atech is correct except to say you don't have to be Chartered to join the ATR. As in you don't have to become a full member of the CIAT to get on it.
However the assessment process and qualification criteria to get on the ATR is the exact same as joining the CIAT except you don't do the final interview. I'm not sure why someone wouldn't go the final step as the interview is not difficult at all.

I would say you don't have the experience yet to become a full member but you should contact CIAT anyway and start the process. You can progress your membership along with your experience and eventually achieve full membership which will stand to you in the future.

The other option is to become an RIAI tech but you may as well burn your money in the garden.

jsn.mcclintock · 31-10-2014 11:55pm

Thanks for your replies!

I am in absolutely no rush to get chartered yet, I still have a lot to learn and I can even admit myself that there are still a lot of gaps in my knowledge. You can't rush experience. I wouldn't mind just starting to make baby steps now towards become chartered down the line. I had a once over of the various documents on the ATR website last night and my initual feeling towards the educational section is that my degree is very meagre compared to the requirements, I studied 3 years in the LYIT and I could/should have progressed to do Level 8 in Napier but personal and financial reasons at the time dissuaded me from doing it. In saying that, the professional section looks to be fairly well covered in the short space of time I've been in employment, I have been fortunate enough to have been involved in a good few projects at different stages doing different roles. I need to have a good discussion with my boss on Monday.

What would you recommend I do at this stage, apply to the ATR or apply to the CIAT? From reading here and other place, I don't think the RIAI is even close to being a runner!

Bazlyons · 02-11-2014 8:03pm

CIAT should be your first port of call. you cant get on the ATR until you're experienced enough to join CIAT.
Good Luck

No6 · 03-11-2014 7:51am

JSN, you can join CIAT as a Associate (ACIAT) as you are currently employed. You do not have to do anything other than fill in the form and pay the subs. When you have more experience you can progress to TCIAT or MCIAT. There is a reasonable ammount of work involved in this but it is well worthwhile. MCIAT will allow inclusion on the ATR too as mentioned above.

sydthebeat · 04-11-2014 10:43am

for anyone who STILL thinks RIAI are a proper representative body for Technicians.....

This is the second of the two new motions. It is being proposed by nine of the current RIAI Council members of whom two are RIAI Past Presidents. The original resolution was signed by the Architectural Technologist Member of the RIAI Council, Darren Bergin, but his name was not permitted for inclusion as Architectural Technologists are currently not recognised as full members under the RIAI By-Laws.

from:

http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/11/03/riai-egm-tuesday-4th-november-2014/

anybody still members of that sham, get out now!!!!!

Corkblowin · 04-11-2014 8:36pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

for anyone who STILL thinks RIAI are a proper representative body
anybody still members of that sham, get out now!!!!!

At the EGM tonight one if the supposed benefits of BCAR is that it puts clear water between architects & technicians.

Surprised it was said out loud.

sydthebeat · 04-11-2014 8:42pm

So did they chicken out of the vote again?

Corkblowin · 04-11-2014 8:50pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

So did they chicken out of the vote again?

Haven't a clue, stopped following it on twitter after that.

Supertech · 04-11-2014 8:55pm

Motion No. 2 - the vanilla option as BRegs Blog so eloquently put it - was passed, with the others defeated according to Twitter.

“That the registered members endorse and confirm their support for the decision of the Council made at the July 2014 Council Meeting to develop a working document on Building Control that would propose amendments to S.I.9 of 2014 and constructively engage with stakeholders in order to realise the best interests of the profession for the long term”

Poor Uncle Tom · 04-11-2014 9:11pm

No surprises there so. I would have been shocked if it had been any other outcome. How long before the spin that somehow this was the radical option that everyone was waiting for.....:rolleyes:

sydthebeat · 04-11-2014 9:19pm

Well, no one can more say they didn't have a chance.

With councils, tds and senators calling for its revokation, this was the best time to nail their colours, and they have. ....

RITwing · 05-11-2014 2:23pm

Look who remains standing after the push to change things. Looks pleased doesn't he?

Charliebull · 20-01-2015 12:36pm

i see some more updates out today on this

Architectural Technologists’ Register (ATR) – update January 2015

Launched on 31 July 2014, the voluntary Register for Architectural Technologists in Ireland was established to represent those practising within the Republic of Ireland. It sets, assesses and monitors the competency standards for Architectural Technologist applicants.

The objective of the voluntary Architectural Technologists’ Register is for it to gain the necessary Statutory status and for its Registrants to be accepted as competent to provide Design and Assigned Certifier services under the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2014. This is its only objective as indicated to the Department for Environment, Communities and Local Government (DECLG) at a meeting with its representatives on 17 July 2014. It is important to note that for this to be achieved, primary legislation will be required and the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2014 will require amendment. Attached is a flyer on the ATR.

The ATR Registration Board can also record the names and contact details on the ATR website of individuals who have indicated their wish to support the profession and intend to join the ATR in due course.

In order to demonstrate a need and a demand for Architectural Technologists to provide these services, it is vital that you register on the ATR or indicate your support and intent to register.

National standard for Architectural Technology in Ireland

The Register is currently voluntary and is supported by the DECLG. The DECLG confirmed it was willing to support the establishment of a Statutory Register (and, if required, more than one Register) once we have undertaken a consultation and demonstrated support for it. Consequently we are working to that aim. This includes working with the Quality and Qualifications Ireland (QQI) and the RIAI to develop an Irish national standard for Architectural Technology. Responsibility for this national standard ultimately rests with QQI and as such the external consultation and engagement of the standard will be undertaken by them. The QQI standard development group will draft and recommend a national standard for Architectural Technology in Ireland in the context of the National Framework of Qualifications. The standard will express expected knowledge, skill and competence for National Framework of Qualifications (NFQ) higher education qualifications at levels 6, 7, 8 and 9.

Members of the standard development group will participate on the basis of their experience and expertise with regard to Architectural Technology, the construction sector and educational standards in Ireland and will include international representation. The aim for the standard development group is to produce a complete first draft standard by the end of May 2015 for consultation, with the final recommendations to QQI in August 2015.

Consultation on the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2014

With this correspondence we also take the opportunity to advise that we will be preparing a formal response to the review of the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2014 and would welcome your comments on the operation of the Regulations in practice – over and above the case for competent Architectural Technologists to be included within the Regulations with their own Register to act as Assigned and/or Designer Certifiers.

In order for us to prepare the response we invite you to provide your comments by 28 February 2015, please address these to Denise Germaine, Chairman and Councillor, Republic of Ireland Centre at denisegerm@gmail.com and also to me at berriman@ciat.org.uk.

Hairy mellon · 02-04-2015 2:06pm

any news on this after last friday's meeting in DIT?

Charliebull · 02-04-2015 2:18pm

Hairy mellon wrote: »

any news on this after last friday's meeting in DIT?

what was the meeting about

Glebee · 02-04-2015 3:28pm

Never heard anything about it..

Architectural Technologist Register

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