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Irish Over 50s & over 65s Championships

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Comments

  • #52
    Joedryan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    sodacat11 wrote: »
    If a draw suits both parties there is nothing that can prevent them from pre arranging a draw. Players can offer draws at any time, even before a game starts.
    I played a morning game last year that was drawn in 130 moves so I got no break or lunch before the next round started. I was playing a lower rated player so I offered him a quick draw which he refused. This annoyed me enough to get the adrenaline going again so I thrashed the ungrateful oaf. Very satisfying☺

    I dont think you can offer a draw before the game starts, you might want to re-read your FIDE rules there.

    Actually I couldnt care less as long as it doesnt affect me, if it is one round per day I will deal with the culprits the next day no issues.

    If not though something is amiss.


  • #53
    spidersweb
    Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭spidersweb


    Yes, pre-arranged games are just wrong and it is cheating for sure. There are many events which do not allow draw offers before move 30, which is an option. It is the pre-arranged part that is so eggregious plus the fact that these soft draws do save energy.


  • #54
    sodacat11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    Joedryan wrote: »
    I dont think you can offer a draw before the game starts, you might want to re-read your FIDE rules there..

    Players "CAN" and frequently do offer draws before games regardless of what the FIDE rule book says.
    I really don't see the difference between a prearranged draw and players offering and accepting draws after 10 or 12 moves or in positions where all three results are still possible. If a draw suits both parties then a draw it shall be. Draws are a part of chess, I don't like artificial efforts to try and eliminate them any more than I like rapid and blitz play offs..


  • #55
    spidersweb
    Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭spidersweb


    sodacat11 wrote: »
    Players "CAN" and frequently do offer draws before games regardless of what the FIDE rule book says.
    I really don't see the difference between a prearranged draw and players offering and accepting draws after 10 or 12 moves or in positions where all three results are still possible. If a draw suits both parties then a draw it shall be. Draws are a part of chess, I don't like artificial efforts to try and eliminate them any more than I like rapid and blitz play offs..



    It is the pre-arranged part that is so egregious.


    World of a difference between short draws and quick draws. Agree that people can, and are free to, make draws, but pre-arranged draws is just wrong.



    As I previously mentioned, many events do not allow draw offers before move 30 (which does not prevent a draw from happening, but does make it harder and does discourage this) and while draws are indeed part of chess and not a problem, pre-arranged fixing of a game in advance should be discouraged as much as possible surely?



    If you can't see the HUGE difference "between a prearranged draw and players offering and accepting draws after 10 or 12 moves or in positions where all three results are still possible" then yeah, maybe there is no hope for you.



    Perhaps a basic course on fair play, sporting etiquette and ethics might be enlightening for you?


  • #56
    sodacat11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    spidersweb wrote: »


    If you can't see the HUGE difference "between a prearranged draw and players offering and accepting draws after 10 or 12 moves or in positions where all three results are still possible" then yeah, maybe there is no hope for you.



    Perhaps a basic course on fair play, sporting etiquette and ethics might be enlightening for you?
    Perhaps you would be good enough to explain the difference between agreeing a draw at 2.45 or at 3.10 when a game starts at 3? Take for instance the recent game between O'Connor and Delaney in the over 50s. A quick draw suited them both so what difference would it have made if they had made an agreement before the game instead of just playing a few meaningless moves in the knowledge that a draw would soon be offered and accepted?

    Your comment about my ethics and sportsmanship is just silly. Ask anyone that I've ever played whether I conduct myself in a sporting manner at the board instead of making stupid comments without any foundation.


  • #57
    spidersweb
    Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭spidersweb


    sodacat11 wrote: »
    Perhaps you would be good enough to explain the difference between agreeing a draw at 2.45 or at 3.10 when a game starts at 3? Take for instance the recent game between O'Connor and Delaney in the over 50s. A quick draw suited them both so what difference would it have made if they had made an agreement before the game instead of just playing a few meaningless moves in the knowledge that a draw would soon be offered and accepted?

    Your comment about my ethics and sportsmanship is just silly. Ask anyone that I've ever played whether I conduct myself in a sporting manner at the board instead of making stupid comments without any foundation.


    You clearly just don't seem to get it on some levels and seem to have a rather narrow and very limited understanding of the issues involved.



    I repeat, pre-arranged draws are wrong and unethical to say the least, by their very nature. The fact that in practice there may be no apparent untoward or obvious negative consequence does not avoid the violation of principle involved.



    Think about it for a while and you will hardly need me to explain the many reasons why this is so. It is akin to the notion of justice not merely being done, but being seen to be done.


    Likewise, it is important that the perception of not corrupting a game in any sport, by circumventing the normal course of a game by pre-agreeing a result be upheld, and people not have cause to doubt or be suspicious about the genuineness of a game. It is all relative of course and in most cases this is benign and not a big deal, but in terms of ethics and principle it is just wrong.


    As for your own conduct or sportsmanship? I have made no comment good or bad about that, and assume you have an impeccable record for all I know. Or that I would ever dare to speculate upon.



    I am very sorry if you thought anything otherwise. I merely feel that you could do with a bit more reflection and enlightening on the principles involved to make the sort of distinctions that would show you fully appreciate the sporting and ethical implications of condoning pre-arraanged games (match/game fixing).


    The idea too, that in a chess game there are ever any "meaningless moves" is flawed as there is always meaning to be found in any game of chess and any moves played. There is, and will always be, some meaning or story behind the moves played and the result in and of a chess game.



    Slippery slop to goodness only knows what, if we start condoning pre - arranged games. Players should have the good grace to go through the motions of at least pretending to play a few moves first anyway, and turn up and play at the agreed times as all the other participants surely?


  • #58
    spidersweb
    Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭spidersweb


    sodacat11 wrote: »
    Perhaps you would be good enough to explain the difference between agreeing a draw at 2.45 or at 3.10 when a game starts at 3? .
    25 minutes difference.


  • #59
    sodacat11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    spidersweb wrote: »
    25 minutes difference.

    Exactly! that is the only difference.
    In your Utopian chess world every game would be played down to King v King before a draw was agreed. Players would never try to win on time . People wouldn't discuss their games with friends while they are still playing. Players wouldn't access the internet during games. They wouldn't paddle their feet under the table like hyperactive ducks shaking the board and annoying other nearby competitors. They wouldn't arrive at the board smelling of garlic, cigarette smoke or B.O. They would arrive at the board on time . They would offer proper handshakes before and after a game. etc etc.
    Unfortunately that is not the real chess world.


  • #60
    cdeb
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,265 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    spidersweb wrote: »
    You clearly just don't seem to get it on some levels and seem to have a rather narrow and very limited understanding of the issues involved.
    Spidersweb - keep it civil please. There's no need to personalise things


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  • #61
    sodacat11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    cdeb wrote: »
    Spidersweb - keep it civil please. There's no need to personalise things

    What issues? If two players want a draw then what's to stop them agreeing one? It is nothing like fixing a horse race or a boxer taking a dive.
    There are a lot of Leinster league games agreed drawn every season without a single move being played or the players even turning up. Do you think that the players and teams involved should be disqualified?


  • #62
    zeitnot
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭zeitnot


    sodacat11 wrote: »
    What issues? If two players want a draw then what's to stop them agreeing one? It is nothing like fixing a horse race or a boxer taking a dive.
    There are a lot of Leinster league games agreed drawn every season without a single move being played or the players even turning up. Do you think that the players and teams involved should be disqualified?

    From the FIDE Laws of Chess taking effect from 1 January 2018:
    "5.2.3 The game is drawn upon agreement between the two players during the game , provided both players have made at least one move. This immediately ends the game."

    There's nothing (or at least nothing in 5.2.3) to stop players agreeing in advance to agree a draw. But it seems they actually have to show up and agree a draw.

    Either player has the right to change his mind once the game starts, so is there really a problem? All that matters is the agreement at the board.

    Whatever has happened in the Leinster leagues in the past in terms of fictitious games, it might be time to retire the practice now, given the latest rules. Especially if the games are going to be rated.


  • #63
    Joedryan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    sodacat11 wrote: »
    Players "CAN" and frequently do offer draws before games regardless of what the FIDE rule book says.
    I     really don't see the difference between a prearranged draw and players offering and accepting draws after 10 or 12 moves or in positions where all three results are still possible. If a draw suits both parties then a draw it shall be. Draws are a part of chess, I don't like artificial efforts to try and eliminate them any more than I like rapid and blitz play offs..

    Well you are right of course, I think Carlsen even created a minor fuss on Norwegian TV when he was asked about a game Mamedyarov-Karjakin which everybody was raving about and ended in perpetual check, Carlsen took one look at the position and smiled intimating they had obviously pre-arranged a draw.

    I realise it does goes on, still doesnt mean I have to like it!


  • #64
    spidersweb
    Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭spidersweb


    Joedryan wrote: »

    I realise it does goes on, still doesnt mean I have to like it!


    Or accept it on principle or condone it. It is wrong, just depending on the context not a big deal- at all. Not a good example to set though is it? Think of the kids Joedryan, afteral they are our future. Save the next generation and be like Thunderberg!


  • #65
    mikhail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,862 ✭✭✭mikhail


    spidersweb wrote: »
    Keep it civil you suggest? Are you kidding?
    Picking a fight with a forum moderator is ... not likely to produce any results you want.

    For what it's worth, I'm mostly with Sodacat on this one. It happens, there's shag all we can do about it, and in my experience measures like the 30 move minimum game are as bad as the problem they slightly impede.
    zeitnot wrote: »
    Whatever has happened in the Leinster leagues in the past in terms of fictitious games, it might be time to retire the practice now, given the latest rules. Especially if the games are going to be rated.
    It's never been legal. Those games have always been rated. The only way to stop it from happening is to insist all matches be played in front of an independent observer or arbiter, which is probably coming with the multi-million euro TV deal any day now.


  • #66
    zeitnot
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭zeitnot


    mikhail wrote: »
    Picking a fight with a forum moderator is ... not likely to produce any results you want.

    For what it's worth, I'm mostly with Sodacat on this one. It happens, there's shag all we can do about it, and in my experience measures like the 30 move minimum game are as bad as the problem they slightly impede.


    It's never been legal. Those games have always been rated. The only way to stop it from happening is to insist all matches be played in front of an independent observer or arbiter, which is probably coming with the multi-million euro TV deal any day now.

    Eh, well, it has never been "legal", but the only rules violated were the LCU's, and maybe the ICU's (for rating purposes). If they don't mind, why should anybody else?

    It's a different matter if FIDE is involved. Fiddling ratings is harder to explain to a wider audience. Better to mark the games down as unplayed (as was done for one game in the recent New Year GM norm event).

    While we're on the topic, I heard a related story that happened in the Armstrong a while back (a few decades but not really very long ago). Team A and team B were both threatened with relegation, and were drawn against each other in the last round. (In the days before the last round was played on one day in the same place.) The captains calculated that a 4-4 draw would leave them both safe, and 8 draws were duly entered, without any pieces being moved (saving one team a long journey). Alas! Someone miscalculated, one of the teams actually tied for relegation, then lost the playoff match.


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  • #67
    Joedryan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    mikhail wrote: »
    Picking a fight with a forum moderator is ... not likely to produce any results you want.

    For what it's worth, I'm mostly with Sodacat on this one. It happens, there's shag all we can do about it, and in my experience measures like the 30 move minimum game are as bad as the problem they slightly impede.


    It's never been legal. Those games have always been rated. The only way to stop it from happening is to insist all matches be played in front of an independent observer or arbiter, which is probably coming with the multi-million euro TV deal any day now.

    Carbon copy score sheets of the game signed by both players, its not rocket science and its required to be submitted to FIDE for most FIDE events as I understand.

    Also, all players of both teams should turn up on the day, and the captains sign off that they have done so and played the match.


  • #68
    sodacat11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    The rating system gets distorted in lots of ways. Fictitious games and prearranged draws get rated.Players throw games. I lost to an 1100 player once who had a RP of 2150 for the tournament and another time to a 1500 kid who became an I.M a couple of years later. Then again I have beaten people with quite high FIDE ratings but low domestic ones.
    If a player's phone goes off he loses rating points even if he is completely winning the game. Some players avoid tournaments where they might meet lower rated players thereby keeping their own rating artificially high. Even at the top of world chess the same players play each other ad nauseam in elite closed events when if they entered more opens like Gibraltar or the Isle of Man they would struggle big time to keep their over inflated ratings. There is no foolproof rating system so probably the one we have is as good as it gets despite all the flaws.


  • #69
    Joedryan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    sodacat11 wrote: »
    The rating system gets distorted in lots of ways. Fictitious games and prearranged draws get rated.Players throw games. I lost to an 1100 player once who had a RP of 2150 for the tournament and another time to a 1500 kid who became an I.M a couple of years later. Then again I have beaten people with quite high FIDE ratings but low domestic ones.
    If a player's phone goes off he loses rating points even if he is completely winning the game. Some players avoid tournaments where they might meet lower rated players thereby keeping their own rating artificially high. Even at the top of world chess the same players play each other ad nauseam in elite closed events when if they entered more opens like Gibraltar or the Isle of Man they would struggle big time to keep their over inflated ratings. There is no foolproof rating system so probably the one we have is as good as it gets despite all the flaws.

    I get the feeling these days a lot of players are far more worried about their rating instead of trying to play some decent games.

    Perhaps its time to abolish the rating system and go back to the good old days of Capablanca and those, what a joy it must have been not to worry about rating and just play.


  • #70
    sodacat11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    Joedryan wrote: »
    I get the feeling these days a lot of players are far more worried about their rating instead of trying to play some decent games.
    .
    Very true, people are obsessed with their ratings, one only has to look at some of the dull openings that they play.
    A few chess players have told me that they don't enjoy the actual games at all, it is only afterwards if they have had a decent result that they get any satisfaction. I find this hard to understand, I love the playing of the game regardless of the result.


  • #71
    ishidaogo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 172 ✭✭ishidaogo


    Can you sad guys either migrate to a different thread or, even better a different server. This thtead is for over 50 and over 65


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  • #72
    sodacat11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    ishidaogo wrote: »
    Can you sad guys either migrate to a different thread or, even better a different server. This thtesd is for over 50 and over 65
    If the slight change of subject upsets you so much perhaps it is you who is the sad one.:pac:


  • #73
    Joedryan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    ishidaogo wrote: »
    Can you sad guys either migrate to a different thread or, even better a different server. This thtesd is for over 50 and over 65

    Are you a mod? If not then please desist, talk is good.


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