Irish Over 50s & over 65s Championships

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 08-01-2020 11:37pm

zeitnot wrote: »

Definitely a problem. And they would be rated first.

He would lose 9.2 or 11.2, depending on whether the November or December ratings applied, I think.

Killian has played and won round 6 of the league which was enough to get over 2300.

cdeb · 08-01-2020 11:43pm

That'll do it so.

Although I see there's one game still adjourned from round 5; if that's still outstanding, the two rounds may be rated after the IM norm tournament?

Either way, well done!

Joedryan · 09-01-2020 5:27pm

Wasnt Killian very close to the IM norm?

Either way well done.

zeitnot · 09-01-2020 5:50pm

How were the titles of Irish 50+ and Irish 65+ champions awarded?

For 50+, John Delaney and Jonathan O'Connor tied on 5.5 (with Robin Moss, who was ineligible for the title).

For 65+, Tim Harding, Eamon Keogh, Pete Morriss and Jim Murray tied on 5.

Shared titles? Rapid playoffs? Median Buchholz etc.?

cdeb · 09-01-2020 7:54pm

Title/cash shared, but tie break for the trophy I think it was.

Pete Morriss · 10-01-2020 5:59pm

It seems that there is no trophy for the over-65s, but I was told that I had won the title on tie-break. Jonathan was awarded the over-50s trophy and title, also on tie-break.

ishidaogo · 13-01-2020 12:06am

Pete Morriss wrote: »

It seems that there is no trophy for the over-65s, but I was told that I had won the title on tie-break. Jonathan was awarded the over-50s trophy and title, also on tie-break.

I have the old DeLoughry trophy and can present it as the o 65 trophy if no one objects.

cdeb · 13-01-2020 8:39am

Is there not the JJ Walsh Cup for the over 65s? Who has that if it wasn't there last week?

jj-walsh-cup.jpg?w=370&h=

RooksPawn · 13-01-2020 11:04am

I thought the perpetual trophy for the overall winner was presented by Ray Byrne two years ago. Is that the one in your picture?
There was a cup (to keep) for the 65+ winner in 2018 when ICU still had their deal with Awards and Gifts, and last year Tony Doyle was presented with a small cup (to keep).

cdeb · 13-01-2020 12:41pm

The Ray Byrne Cup is for the Over 50s.

(Don't know how to resize the image below unfortunately)

sodacat11 · 13-01-2020 11:49pm

The trophy for the Leinster Senior is missing too. It should be a simple enough matter to ask the previous winners where it went. I am pretty sure that it is one of two people who has it so it shouldn't be too hard for the ICU to track it down.
I could be wrong but I think that the Leinster Intermediate trophy might be missing too.

RooksPawn · 14-01-2020 12:04pm

The Drogheda Chess Club (who used to run the old 60+ veterans tournament) should maybe be asked about the J. J. Walsh Cup.
It certainly was not in evidence at any of the three Seniors championships so far run by ICU.

cdeb · 14-01-2020 1:15pm

Drogheda used a different trophy for the veterans' event though. It's the one below. I thought the Ray Byrne and JJ Walsh Cups were both acquired when the event switched to the New Year. That said, while the Ray Byrne photo is in a hotel room, the JJ Walsh photo isn't, and I'm not sure where it was when I took that.

sodacat11 · 14-01-2020 6:12pm

That looks like a turd on a piece of wood.

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 14-01-2020 8:11pm

The JJ Walsh Cup is still used for a different unrelated event; it pre-existed the 50+/65+ events.

I’ll talk to Drogheda about the Veterans Cup - when we created the 50+/65+, the understanding was that the Veterans would continue and that we wouldn’t be standing in its way and would look to promote it as always; but it hasn’t been run since unfortunately. I had hoped it would expand but Andrew preferred it to be smaller and more manageable; which was fine as it then offered something different to 50+/65+ in a weekend format.

The Leinster titles would be up to LCU to track down - the last photo I’ve seen of the senior title was it being presented to Gavin Wall in roughly 2007 by Phil Hogarty. I’d imagine Gavin didn’t cart it home so probably stayed with the LCU.

RooksPawn · 14-01-2020 9:22pm

I think the last time the Drogheda event was played was September 2017.
Eamon Keogh won; you could ask him whether he ever received the trophy.
Tim Harding won in 2016. The trophy cannot be seen in the presentation photo that was once on the Drogheda club website.
I gather that Tim was promised they would get it to him eventually but they never did.

Joedryan · 20-01-2020 10:50pm

so who won the over 65?

on the norm events the 2 rds a day has some issues, a couple of times I played people who had short draws before my game,

Not complaining because I signed up but its there for all to see

sodacat11 · 21-01-2020 12:27am

Joedryan wrote: »

so who won the over 65?

on the norm events the 2 rds a day has some issues, a couple of times I played people who had short draws before my game,

Not complaining because I signed up but its there for all to see

Some people have to travel long distances to games. Others might not be feeling well or may not have slept well. Some may have worries outside chess or maybe health issues. Some may be using the wrong pen. etc etc. It is impossible to have a completely level playing field all the time.

Joedryan · 21-01-2020 1:14am

sodacat11 wrote: »

Some people have to travel long distances to games. Others might not be feeling well or may not have slept well. Some may have worries outside chess or maybe health issues. Some may be using the wrong pen. etc etc. It is impossible to have a completely level playing field all the time.

And some may be playing pre-arranged draws, but we carry on regardless.

sodacat11 · 21-01-2020 1:57am

Joedryan wrote: »

And some may be playing pre-arranged draws, but we carry on regardless.

If a draw suits both parties there is nothing that can prevent them from pre arranging a draw. Players can offer draws at any time, even before a game starts.
I played a morning game last year that was drawn in 130 moves so I got no break or lunch before the next round started. I was playing a lower rated player so I offered him a quick draw which he refused. This annoyed me enough to get the adrenaline going again so I thrashed the ungrateful oaf. Very satisfying☺

Joedryan · 21-01-2020 2:31am

sodacat11 wrote: »

If a draw suits both parties there is nothing that can prevent them from pre arranging a draw. Players can offer draws at any time, even before a game starts.
I played a morning game last year that was drawn in 130 moves so I got no break or lunch before the next round started. I was playing a lower rated player so I offered him a quick draw which he refused. This annoyed me enough to get the adrenaline going again so I thrashed the ungrateful oaf. Very satisfying☺

I dont think you can offer a draw before the game starts, you might want to re-read your FIDE rules there.

Actually I couldnt care less as long as it doesnt affect me, if it is one round per day I will deal with the culprits the next day no issues.

If not though something is amiss.

spidersweb · 21-01-2020 8:15am

Yes, pre-arranged games are just wrong and it is cheating for sure. There are many events which do not allow draw offers before move 30, which is an option. It is the pre-arranged part that is so eggregious plus the fact that these soft draws do save energy.

sodacat11 · 21-01-2020 10:25am

Joedryan wrote: »

I dont think you can offer a draw before the game starts, you might want to re-read your FIDE rules there..

Players "CAN" and frequently do offer draws before games regardless of what the FIDE rule book says.
I really don't see the difference between a prearranged draw and players offering and accepting draws after 10 or 12 moves or in positions where all three results are still possible. If a draw suits both parties then a draw it shall be. Draws are a part of chess, I don't like artificial efforts to try and eliminate them any more than I like rapid and blitz play offs..

spidersweb · 21-01-2020 12:02pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

Players "CAN" and frequently do offer draws before games regardless of what the FIDE rule book says.
I really don't see the difference between a prearranged draw and players offering and accepting draws after 10 or 12 moves or in positions where all three results are still possible. If a draw suits both parties then a draw it shall be. Draws are a part of chess, I don't like artificial efforts to try and eliminate them any more than I like rapid and blitz play offs..

It is the pre-arranged part that is so egregious.

World of a difference between short draws and quick draws. Agree that people can, and are free to, make draws, but pre-arranged draws is just wrong.

As I previously mentioned, many events do not allow draw offers before move 30 (which does not prevent a draw from happening, but does make it harder and does discourage this) and while draws are indeed part of chess and not a problem, pre-arranged fixing of a game in advance should be discouraged as much as possible surely?

If you can't see the HUGE difference "between a prearranged draw and players offering and accepting draws after 10 or 12 moves or in positions where all three results are still possible" then yeah, maybe there is no hope for you.

Perhaps a basic course on fair play, sporting etiquette and ethics might be enlightening for you?

sodacat11 · 21-01-2020 12:10pm

spidersweb wrote: »

If you can't see the HUGE difference "between a prearranged draw and players offering and accepting draws after 10 or 12 moves or in positions where all three results are still possible" then yeah, maybe there is no hope for you.

Perhaps a basic course on fair play, sporting etiquette and ethics might be enlightening for you?

Perhaps you would be good enough to explain the difference between agreeing a draw at 2.45 or at 3.10 when a game starts at 3? Take for instance the recent game between O'Connor and Delaney in the over 50s. A quick draw suited them both so what difference would it have made if they had made an agreement before the game instead of just playing a few meaningless moves in the knowledge that a draw would soon be offered and accepted?

Your comment about my ethics and sportsmanship is just silly. Ask anyone that I've ever played whether I conduct myself in a sporting manner at the board instead of making stupid comments without any foundation.

spidersweb · 21-01-2020 12:45pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

Perhaps you would be good enough to explain the difference between agreeing a draw at 2.45 or at 3.10 when a game starts at 3? Take for instance the recent game between O'Connor and Delaney in the over 50s. A quick draw suited them both so what difference would it have made if they had made an agreement before the game instead of just playing a few meaningless moves in the knowledge that a draw would soon be offered and accepted?

Your comment about my ethics and sportsmanship is just silly. Ask anyone that I've ever played whether I conduct myself in a sporting manner at the board instead of making stupid comments without any foundation.

You clearly just don't seem to get it on some levels and seem to have a rather narrow and very limited understanding of the issues involved.

I repeat, pre-arranged draws are wrong and unethical to say the least, by their very nature. The fact that in practice there may be no apparent untoward or obvious negative consequence does not avoid the violation of principle involved.

Think about it for a while and you will hardly need me to explain the many reasons why this is so. It is akin to the notion of justice not merely being done, but being seen to be done.

Likewise, it is important that the perception of not corrupting a game in any sport, by circumventing the normal course of a game by pre-agreeing a result be upheld, and people not have cause to doubt or be suspicious about the genuineness of a game. It is all relative of course and in most cases this is benign and not a big deal, but in terms of ethics and principle it is just wrong.

As for your own conduct or sportsmanship? I have made no comment good or bad about that, and assume you have an impeccable record for all I know. Or that I would ever dare to speculate upon.

I am very sorry if you thought anything otherwise. I merely feel that you could do with a bit more reflection and enlightening on the principles involved to make the sort of distinctions that would show you fully appreciate the sporting and ethical implications of condoning pre-arraanged games (match/game fixing).

The idea too, that in a chess game there are ever any "meaningless moves" is flawed as there is always meaning to be found in any game of chess and any moves played. There is, and will always be, some meaning or story behind the moves played and the result in and of a chess game.

Slippery slop to goodness only knows what, if we start condoning pre - arranged games. Players should have the good grace to go through the motions of at least pretending to play a few moves first anyway, and turn up and play at the agreed times as all the other participants surely?

spidersweb · 21-01-2020 12:51pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

Perhaps you would be good enough to explain the difference between agreeing a draw at 2.45 or at 3.10 when a game starts at 3? .

25 minutes difference.

sodacat11 · 21-01-2020 1:02pm

spidersweb wrote: »

25 minutes difference.

Exactly! that is the only difference.
In your Utopian chess world every game would be played down to King v King before a draw was agreed. Players would never try to win on time . People wouldn't discuss their games with friends while they are still playing. Players wouldn't access the internet during games. They wouldn't paddle their feet under the table like hyperactive ducks shaking the board and annoying other nearby competitors. They wouldn't arrive at the board smelling of garlic, cigarette smoke or B.O. They would arrive at the board on time . They would offer proper handshakes before and after a game. etc etc.
Unfortunately that is not the real chess world.

cdeb · 21-01-2020 1:55pm

spidersweb wrote: »

You clearly just don't seem to get it on some levels and seem to have a rather narrow and very limited understanding of the issues involved.

Spidersweb - keep it civil please. There's no need to personalise things

sodacat11 · 21-01-2020 3:13pm

cdeb wrote: »

Spidersweb - keep it civil please. There's no need to personalise things

What issues? If two players want a draw then what's to stop them agreeing one? It is nothing like fixing a horse race or a boxer taking a dive.
There are a lot of Leinster league games agreed drawn every season without a single move being played or the players even turning up. Do you think that the players and teams involved should be disqualified?

Irish Over 50s & over 65s Championships

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