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Lead ban

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    #602
    Fastnet50
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭Fastnet50


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Nobody is asking you to put an angle grinder through your firearms but there's no point denying the fact that this legislation will cause problems for shooters here.

    There are several problems for us that I can see.

    1. The definition of wetlands. It's quite possible that pretty much all of Ireland could be classed as a wetland.

    2. If most of Ireland is classed as a wetland, they might make the decision to get rid of lead altogether, and not just in the wetlands.

    3. Even if it's not contained in EU legislation, our own Government might sneak in a few extra conditions as they did with the EU magazine ban about a year ago. Mags could have been grandfathered for sporting purposes. They Irish Government didn't do that. The EU legislation had nothing in it regarding keeping ammo in locked containers but our legislation added that in.

    I'm not scaremongering here but this legislation poses a real threat to shooting here.

    Yes it does and I am always concerned when new regulations are enforced on us. I do not want to see leadshot banned for game shooting here and my only point was I do not feel that enforcement here will take into account puddles etc but would purely stick to lakes, rivers etc. I could be totally wrong and hope I am not I do however feel that lead bullets whenever they can not be suitably replaced by some other material will remain with us. I shot deer here when you had to jump over hoops to get a 22-250 license and the gains made since then are being gradually clawed back both from the EU and our own authorities. So yes I fully agree with you this legislation does pose a threat to shooting but I remain hopeful things will turn out in our favour.


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    #603
    GooseB
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭GooseB


    ... I do not feel that enforcement here will take into account puddles etc but would purely stick to lakes, rivers etc.

    I can't find the quote but somewhere in the texts I've read it was suggested that in countries with a high proportion of their lands categorised as wetlands and as such would have difficulty in policing whether lead shot was for hunting or target shooting purposes (ie: clays), then in those circumstances a total ban on the sale of lead shot would be permitted to make the policing task easier.

    There's a lot of information in this ECHA report from a few years ago regarding all forms of lead ammunition (hunting & at target ranges) and fishing weights and it's the basis of the new laws coming from the EU. It's worth having a flick through it for anyone with an interest in any form or shooting.

    https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/13641/lead_ammunition_investigation_report_en.pdf/


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    #604
    TrimeTime
    Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭TrimeTime


    GooseB wrote: »
    I can't find the quote but somewhere in the texts I've read it was suggested that in countries with a high proportion of their lands categorised as wetlands and as such would have difficulty in policing whether lead shot was for hunting or target shooting purposes (ie: clays), then in those circumstances a total ban on the sale of lead shot would be permitted to make the policing task easier.

    People could still buy .22LR lead-free rounds though right(heard they are quite inaccurate)? I mean I doubt .22 caliber would get removed completely. Also looked at other calibers and the jump in ammo costs in a joke. Banning lead ammo makes it so expensive.


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    #605
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,946 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    The case against rifle ammo is not very strong and is based on meat pollution caused by h/v ammo disintegrating and splashing on impact and therefore making its way to the human and animal food chain
    .

    It is proably less than what you absorb from pollution on an annual basis from the enviroment...however, THEY DONT CARE... It is LEAD and must be removed from society no matter what.

    The case for target ranges are less strong as most bullets can be caught in bullet catchers and recycled.

    At great cost.,you have a serious rebuilding job to do, and in some cases an impossibility on older ranges that were just embankments with no under protection for water runoff or the like. Plus it will limit the size of the shooting positions to how many of the traps are in operation. Of course, a lot of this could also be negated if you are using "non-lead ammo":rolleyes:
    However I think they have a huge way to go to have this implemented as firstly they have no alternative to lead for most small-calibre bullets.
    Again...They Don't care!!. I mean their solution is to use steel core ammo.Which if anyone knows is basically an armour piercing round. And prohibited under the EU firearms laws as it stands. You have the classic case of the arrogance and ignorance not wishing to be educated by those with knowledge of the subject...Lead and guns Bad....Baaaan them. That is their logic and agenda simplified.
    I also feel that we should not try to discourage younger shooters from entering the sport by complete negative posting. If and when they come up with a suitable alternative to rifle ammo I have no doubt they will switch to that but until then I do not think they will. Appreciate your thoughts .

    Indeed.Keep calm and go shooting for the time being.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #606
    GooseB
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭GooseB


    People could still buy .22LR lead-free rounds

    For the moment the ban of lead only concerns lead shot for use in shotguns. The next step is to legislate for ALL lead in CIVILIAN ammunition, that covers everything. It's mentioned previously if you read back through the pages of this thread.


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    #607
    TrimeTime
    Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭TrimeTime


    GooseB wrote: »
    For the moment the ban of lead only concerns lead shot for use in shotguns. The next step is to legislate for ALL lead in CIVILIAN ammunition, that covers everything. It's mentioned previously if you read back through the pages of this thread.

    Have they spoken about banning lead in all civilian ammunition or is it what people are imagining the next step the EU will take?


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    #608
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,946 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Fastnet50 wrote: »
    Yes it does and I am always concerned when new regulations are enforced on us. I do not want to see leadshot banned for game shooting here and my only point was I do not feel that enforcement here will take into account puddles etc but would purely stick to lakes, rivers etc
    .

    For your information.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-pNA1BNVgk&feature=emb_logo

    The EU council voted to affirm this idiocy on Wed.:mad:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #609
    tudderone
    Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    TrimeTime wrote: »
    People could still buy .22LR lead-free rounds though right(heard they are quite inaccurate)? I mean I doubt .22 caliber would get removed completely. Also looked at other calibers and the jump in ammo costs in a joke. Banning lead ammo makes it so expensive.

    Made of what ? Copper ? Copper is three times the cost of lead, so your 30 odd quid brick you use for range time, could become a 100 odd quid brick of ammo.


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    #610
    GooseB
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭GooseB


    Have they spoken about banning lead in all civilian ammunition or is it what people are imagining the next step the EU will take?

    As mentioned, this can be found by reading back through this thread as it's been covered. See my post #562 for a start


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    #611
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,946 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    TrimeTime wrote: »
    Have they spoken about banning lead in all civilian ammunition or is it what people are imagining the next step the EU will take?

    FACT!! It is not imagined. it is mentioned in this thread of what the plan is. In fact I mentioned this here 3 years ago in this post.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057783670

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #612
    GooseB
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭GooseB


    The last paragraph looks like there may be some wiggle room in the definition of "wetlands"

    https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/law/eu-lead-ban-envi-committee-approves-the-proposal-from-the-ec/


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    #613
    juice1304
    Registered Users Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭juice1304


    tudderone wrote: »
    Made of what ? Copper ? Copper is three times the cost of lead, so your 30 odd quid brick you use for range time, could become a 100 odd quid brick of ammo.

    Not only that you will have to rebarrel your rifle because the rate of twist will be wrong.


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    #614
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,946 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Nor is it a promised "end of the matter"material.If you read these EU statements ,they say they can also investigate other materials for suitability, and ban then toi if they find them hazardous. So in 10,20 years we could be back to square 1 with alt shot.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #615
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Nor is it a promised "end of the matter"material.If you read these EU statements ,they say they can also investigate other materials for suitability, and ban then toi if they find them hazardous. So in 10,20 years we could be back to square 1 with alt shot.

    I did a literature review earlier this year into the use of lead shot in wetlands (I wonder where I got the idea for that topic :D) and found that copper can cause more harm to certain organisms than lead.


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    #616
    tudderone
    Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/vintage-friendly-eco-steel


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    #617
    Mississippi.
    Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭Mississippi.


    I just got an email from the ECHA saying that they are going to postpone their submission concerning the restriction proposal for the use of lead in shot,bullets and fishing Tackle until January 2021.

    Would that mean that the October deadline we heard about for the European parliament was also pushed back I wonder ?


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    #618
    GooseB
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭GooseB


    I got that email too. I don't know if the particular submission mentioned that has gotten postponed is also the same submission that the following below article mentions. The article was published today and the ECHA email came in yesterday but maybe due to deadlines they didn't get the info in time to change the article. Or maybe they're just totally different submissions - I'm finding this hard to follow at times:confused:

    https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/law/lead-ammunition-and-wetlands-the-battle-continues/

    The article mentions "Hunters and sport shooters will also play an active role, and in this respect they will receive all instructions from their national hunting and sport shooting associations."

    Anyone know if any organisations here are following this? The lead ban is coming after all lead ammunition, the shot over "wetlands" is just the first step. I'd imagine all our national bodies should be following this, from hunting to clay shooting and target shooting since it'll affect every firearm with the exception of crossbows!:rolleyes:

    EDIT: Just after posting the above I saw this: https://www.nargc.ie/cpages/lead-campaign


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    #619
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,946 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Lads,for anyone who has a senior NARGC ear, can I point out 2 slight critiques?

    1] You as an EU citizen are NOT limited to just contacting Irish MEPS! You can contact ALL of them from every EU country. Don't worry, they all speak English , or will have it translated for them in their native lingo. Even if all our lot voted in favour [not that half of them will either:(]with both hands up, it wouldn't make a blind bit. So spread your chances contact every MEP with an email.It's how Firearms United got out the message all across Europe.

    2] Is a background pic of sawn-off double barrels from some police evidence locker a good idea for this??? Considering PR and "Optics" these days and post the latest PR disaster on RTE?.... Just saying.:)

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #620
    Richard308
    Registered Users Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭Richard308


    Did the ban pass?


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    #621
    GooseB
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭GooseB


    Did the ban pass?

    Voting tomorrow.

    https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/law/lead-ammunition-and-wetlands-the-battle-continues/


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    #622
    tudderone
    Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    I was watching this chap earlier. Start the video at about 4.50 mins in.

    This is being pushed by the United Nations. The lead ban is being brought in under the African-Eurasian wildbird agreement (AEWA), which the BASC, the UK version of NARGC, are receiveing funding. This agreement and BASC are being funded by the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP).

    Are any Irish orgs being funded like this ?


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdK2PQLkASI


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    #623
    berettaman
    Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭berettaman


    tudderone wrote: »
    I was watching this chap earlier. Start the video at about 4.50 mins in.

    This is being pushed by the United Nations. The lead ban is being brought in under the African-Eurasian wildbird agreement (AEWA), which the BASC, the UK version of NARGC, are receiveing funding. This agreement and BASC are being funded by the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP).

    Are any Irish orgs being funded like this ?


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdK2PQLkASI


    I do not know about the others but according to the Treasurer of the NARGC they do not receive any outside funding whatsoever.


    What about the rest? Sports coalition of vested interests are too small but should be asked anyway.


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    #624
    tudderone
    Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    berettaman wrote: »
    I do not know about the others but according to the Treasurer of the NARGC they do not receive any outside funding whatsoever.


    What about the rest? Sports coalition of vested interests are too small but should be asked anyway.

    Well NARGC have been fighting the ban, but as you seen in the video BASC were all for it. I seen the countryside alliance mentioned but don't know if they were for it or against it. When big sums of money start flying around, principles disappear.


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    #625
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,946 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    The reason a lot of UK shooters are starting to look around for something other than BASC to represent them. All it seems to do is fold at every opportunity, and allow a Fudd level of administration to live a champagne lifestyle that is now becoming wholly out of touch with its members. So them getting brown paper envelopes from the UN wouldn't surprise.

    SCOVI with all of its members fittable in a phone box these days is not going to be of any interest to people like Soros or the UN. Depending also on how it is registered, NGO, lobby group, company,charity etc.It probably would also have to declare those interests and funding.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #626
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,946 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Yeah the ban passed!:(:(Only thing that seems to have got thru is the 2-year phase-in.:(
    So it is now also official policy the EU presumption of innocence has been thrown out the window as well.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #627
    tudderone
    Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Yeah the ban passed!:(:(Only thing that seems to have got thru is the 2-year phase-in.:(
    So it is now also official policy the EU presumption of innocence has been thrown out the window as well.

    Oh goodie :(, but lets face it, what the EUSSR wants, they gets. I think by the time the voting happens, its already a fait accompli.


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    #628
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    What's the bets that the definition of wetland will cover 100% of Ireland?


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    #629
    tudderone
    Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    What's the bets that the definition of wetland will cover 100% of Ireland?

    100% it'll be 100%, :rolleyes:


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    #630
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,946 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Yeah, because it is the easiest cop-out for the bunch of sleeveens that we elect to govern us.:mad:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #631
    tudderone
    Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Yeah, because it is the easiest cop-out for the bunch of sleeveens that we elect to govern us.:mad:

    They are only the rubber stampers to the EU, and have been since the bail-out. The real government is in Brussels, has been for some time.


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