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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail

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    #632
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    you're not really reading it right.

    I'm suggesting that the rail lobby will not believe that the Greenway lobby do not want to forever prevent a rail service, and will move heaven and earth to prevent a Greenway on that basis.

    I'm not touting a line that the Greenway people actually want to prevent a rail rail forever.

    I'm suggesting a middle line (sic) trying to understand the desires of both parties who are in deeply entrenched positions.


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    #633
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Isambard wrote: »
    you're not really reading it right.

    I'm suggesting that the rail lobby will not believe that the Greenway lobby do not want to forever prevent a rail service, and will move heaven and earth to prevent a Greenway on that basis.

    I'm not touting a line that the Greenway people actually want to prevent a rail rail forever.

    I'm suggesting a middle line (sic) trying to understand the desires of both parties who are in deeply entrenched positions.

    The simple point is it is not the "greenway people" who will prevent the railway from returning, it is the government of whatever shade and Irish Rail, when will you understand there is simply no desire to re-open this railway on the part of national government. if a greenway is built in any case there will be a strict licence in place for return to rail, this has already been agreed between Sligo county council and Irish Rail for the Sligo greenway, it has been agreed on other closed railway routes so what part of this legal agreement don't west on track understand?

    Read page 47 of the Meehan Tully Associates report prepared for Sligo coco back in 2016

    What about the potential reopening of the line?
    Communication with Irish Rail and other greenway projects has repeatedly highlighted the absolute requirement of a clause in the greenway licence that requires the revocation of the licence if the line is reopened at any stage. This is strictly enforced and reemphasised by Irish Rail, who also require, where necessary, additional costs to be incurred in the development of the greenway to ensure future-proofing in the event of a reopening of the line.
    What is the final recommendation?
    The final recommendation is that Option Two, the single-use greenway should be pursued in the short-term, however Option One, the reopening of the line to rail traffic should be the longer-term objective.


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    #634
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Here is the Meehan Tully report it fully explains why the Alongside greenway would be a complete waste of money compared to using the existing trackbed and having the strict licensed arrangement with Irish Rail what part of this watertight legal agreement don't West on Track understand, even the IRD in Kiltimagh have a similar agreement in place for that daft project.


    Sligo Western Rail Corridor Assessment June 23 - Final.pdf


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    #635
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Isambard wrote: »
    you're not really reading it right.

    I'm suggesting that the rail lobby will not believe that the Greenway lobby do not want to forever prevent a rail service, and will move heaven and earth to prevent a Greenway on that basis.

    I'm not touting a line that the Greenway people actually want to prevent a rail rail forever.

    I'm suggesting a middle line (sic) trying to understand the desires of both parties who are in deeply entrenched positions.

    Ok, so it's just in your head then, thanks for the clarification


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    #636
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    it's going nowhere with an attitude like that


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    #637
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Isambard wrote: »
    it's going nowhere with an attitude like that

    What attitude? It's been pointed out that the final decision would not be impacted by any greenway due to the lease agreement but you are choosing to ignore that one simple fact and instead keep trotting out an illogical fallacy with no basis in reality.


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    #638
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Isambard wrote: »
    it's going nowhere with an attitude like that

    What attitude? It's been pointed out that the final decision would not be impacted by any greenway due to the lease agreement but you are choosing to ignore that one simple fact and instead keep trotting out an illogical fallacy with no basis in reality.


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    #639
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What attitude? It's been pointed out that the final decision would not be impacted by any greenway due to the lease agreement but you are choosing to ignore that one simple fact and instead keep trotting out an illogical fallacy with no basis in reality.


    Da Cor is it worth it? they just don't gettit, Irish Rail are adamant this clause goes in these closed railway to greenway projects, it is there in black and white and signed by the county councils not the mythical "greenway people" its not worth wasting anymore time on the argument. If a greenway happens and the route is required again for rail, that's it. The railway gets rebuilt. Simple as. It is in black and white, it is legally binding and please don't come back to us with Comber Valley or any other case. That is why this clause in. Da Cor they just don't gettit. Not worth the effort engaging.


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    #640
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    westtip wrote: »
    Da Cor is it worth it? they just don't gettit, Irish Rail are adamant this clause goes in these closed railway to greenway projects, it is there in black and white and signed by the county councils not the mythical "greenway people" its not worth wasting anymore time on the argument. If a greenway happens and the route is required again for rail, that's it. The railway gets rebuilt. Simple as. It is in black and white, it is legally binding and please don't come back to us with Comber Valley or any other case. That is why this clause in. Da Cor they just don't gettit. Not worth the effort engaging.

    While I agree, in large part, with most of your post, I would be more inclined to say that only through engagement can the fallacies be exposed, the worries acknowledged and addressed and the opportunities realised.

    As a wise old man (Bob Hoskins) used to say, its good to talk ;)


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    #641
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    How is the Velo Rail project going? Should be approaching Letterkenny by now. :pac:

    ****



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    #642
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    How is the Velo Rail project going? Should be approaching Letterkenny by now. :pac:

    How much use able track is actually still there for a velorail project, (or any other rail type project)

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #643
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    How is the Velo Rail project going? Should be approaching Letterkenny by now. :pac:

    I heard they are in a bit of bother as they have no planning permission for any part of the project and that Mayo county council tried to pull a stroke and say they didn't need planning permission as the whole project was all part of the plan to restore the railway, I think this view got challenged and Mayo Coco and the Kiltimagh IRD got referred to An Bord Pleanala. Last I heard the decision is pending with ABP.

    Mind you they are not wanting for money as Ringer has chucked nearly 500k (yes that is right half a million) at the project in three separate tranches of
    September 2016 €180,000
    December 2017 €118,000
    March 2019 €198,794
    Total €496,794..

    He did this apparently against the advice of his department officials (but it does buy more votes in Mayo) and in the full knowledge the whole matter was under investigation by ABP. The project though appears to have come to a grinding halt.

    I think there is more to come on it, must check with my sources :D

    You can find out more on the Kiltimagh Greenway Group page on FB.


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    #644
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Deleted User wrote: »
    While I agree, in large part, with most of your post, I would be more inclined to say that only through engagement can the fallacies be exposed, the worries acknowledged and addressed and the opportunities realised.

    As a wise old man (Bob Hoskins) used to say, its good to talk ;)

    Exactly, case in point about fallacies being exposed, look at how they actually got the whole show on the road back in 2005 with the McCann Report, which was virtually adopted as policy. This one is always worth revisiting I amreproducing a post I saw on the Quiet Man Greenway FB page over the weekend, what a stitch up that McCann Report was, a lobby group basically writing policy!
    Here is something to mull over during the Easter break, bear with me and read it if you have any desire to know what we have been up against over the years.

    EY DKN who are they? EY DKN is the consulting company which has won the half million euro contract to undertake the economic review of the closed railway from Athenry to Claremorris. The review is the price of support for the government from independent TD Sean Canney. For those of you steeped in the history of the Western Rail Corridor let me explain why this review is so important and why it is undertaken by well-qualified people. The original basis for re-opening the railway was based on a report called the McCann Report back in 2005; this report presented to the then Minister of Transport as the blueprint and reasoning to re-open the railway, with phase one being Athenry Ennis. Now here is the fly in the ointment.

    The McCann report, was written by what was rather quaintly called "An Expert Working Group".....Members of this so called expert working group included from West on Track Mr Martin Cunniffe Claremorris,Cllr Tom McHugh Tuam,
    Ms Helen Rochford-Brennan Tubbercurry, Co Sligo, There was a sub group of the working group called the WRC Dimensions and Costs and Benefits Sub-Group, and low and behold look a the members of this sub cmt: Mr Frank Dawson, Galway County Development Board (Chairman) Mr John McAleer, Director, South West Regional Authority Mr Gerry Behan (for Edmond Gleeson, Limerick County Manager)
    Cllr Tom McHugh, West on Track Mr Robert Leech, Railway Procurement Agency

    Frank Dawson may be known to some of you as a prominent member and support of West on Track, and we all know about Cllr McHugh. Not a single well qualified Transport Economist was on the entire expert working group.

    Then look at the shape of another sub committee
    The Rail Travel Demand Sub-Group
    Mr Hubert Kearns, Sligo County Manager (Chairman)
    Mr Tom Kirby, Director, Mid West Regional Authority
    Mr Michael Reidy, Manager, Programmes and Projects Unit, CIE
    Fr Michéal MacGréil SJ, Inter-County Rail Committee
    Mr Martin Cunniffe, West on Track

    Father Micheal MacGreil a member of the Inter County Rail committee is one of the founding members of West on Track.
    This sub committee to look at Rail Travel demand has not got a single qualified transport planning professional on its membership but has two members of lobby group West on Track!

    Effectively the McCann report which was to shape policy on the Western Rail Corridor was written by West on Track, asa Michael Caine said "Not a lot of people know that "

    It was akin to a government asking the tobacco industry to write the policy on tobacco advertising

    This is why spending 500k using the skill sets of highly qualified economists, transport planners, intelligent people with no agenda who understand demographics to produce this new report should be money well spent. Mr Canney should be careful what he wishes for.

    We actually have the chance to cast off the anvil around our necks the McCann report written and presented to government 14 years ago by the very lobby group who wants to re-open the railway.

    EY DKN have been told to carry out a public consultation process in which we can all let EY DKN know what we think. This is the next important step, to once again make our voice heard. Interesting times ahead, but the outcome of this report cannot be allowed to be another discredited McCann Report, lets hope those days are over.

    For those that have read this piece on a Bank Holiday Monday many thanks.


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    #645
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,354 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Colm McCarthy has an article on the WRC in last week's Farmers Journal.. you have to sign up to read it

    Nothing new in there but a reality check for the supporters of the WRC north of Athenry, especially when the spend on further rail services could go a long way towards dualling the N17 which improves bus service times.


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    #646
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    marno21 wrote: »
    Colm McCarthy has an article on the WRC in last week's Farmers Journal.. you have to sign up to read it

    Nothing new in there but a reality check for the supporters of the WRC north of Athenry, especially when the spend on further rail services could go a long way towards dualling the N17 which improves bus service times.

    See attached


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    #647
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    More worthless rubbish from a well known anti-railway pundit. Paper never refused ink but how he gets paid for repeating the same old tripe over and over again.

    ****



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    #648
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    More worthless rubbish from a well known anti-railway pundit. Paper never refused ink but how he gets paid for repeating the same old tripe over and over again.

    Which provable fact that he stated do you have a problem with?


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    #649
    jasper100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 455 ✭✭jasper100


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Which provable fact that he stated do you have a problem with?


    The fundamental issue is that constantly building roads and motorways is not the solution. It just leads to further congestion at the edges of cities and more gridlock. Ireland also needs to get its emissions under control and more roads and cars ain't the answer.


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    #650
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    jasper100 wrote: »
    The fundamental issue is that constantly building roads and motorways is not the solution. It just leads to further congestion at the edges of cities and more gridlock. Ireland also needs to get its emissions under control and more roads and cars ain't the answer.

    Can you clarify how half-empty 2 carriage trains address that


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    #651
    jasper100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 455 ✭✭jasper100


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Can you clarify how half-empty 2 carriage trains address that

    High density housing clustered around a railway station with a frequent and reliable service.


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    #652
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,529 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    jasper100 wrote: »
    High density housing clustered around a railway station with a frequent and reliable service.

    High density housing. In rural Ireland? Lads... there'll be war over the restrictions needed for that :pac:


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    #653
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,354 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Time to revive the Ballyglunin Towers proposal.


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    #654
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    jasper100 wrote: »
    High density housing clustered around a railway station with a frequent and reliable service.

    Lol, If the WRC had the power to change national planning policy I'd feckin build it myself


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    #655
    London Correspondent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26 ✭London Correspondent


    The only lols around here are those who actually take what Colm McCarthy has to say on railways seriously. This is the “economist” who not only tried to stop both the Dart and the Luas but Failed miserably to forecast the collapse of the Celtic Tiger years.


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    #656
    London Correspondent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26 ✭London Correspondent


    jasper100 wrote: »
    The fundamental issue is that constantly building roads and motorways is not the solution. It just leads to further congestion at the edges of cities and more gridlock. Ireland also needs to get its emissions under control and more roads and cars ain't the answer.

    This is a very serious point; Ireland’s emissions are not under control and we face significant carbon taxes as a result. Listening to fools like McCarthy and those who believe him has led us to the place we are in now.


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    #657
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    London Correspondent wrote: »
    This is a very serious point; Ireland’s emissions are not under control and we face significant carbon taxes as a result. Listening to fools like McCarthy and those who believe him has led us to the place we are in now.

    Cyclists produce no emissions, sounds like we should have a lot more greenways


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    #658
    jasper100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 455 ✭✭jasper100


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Cyclists produce no emissions, sounds like we should have a lot more greenways

    Another round of silly cyber high five LOL's all round posts from the lads.

    Commuters travelling to work over a long distance won't be taking the bike.:rolleyes:


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    #659
    Muckyboots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Muckyboots


    jasper100 wrote: »
    Another round of silly cyber high five LOL's all round posts from the lads.

    Commuters travelling to work over a long distance won't be taking the bike.:rolleyes:

    They won't be taking a train to Athenry either - rolls eyes, dishes out high fives and L'sOL...


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    #660
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    Muckyboots wrote: »
    They won't be taking a train to Athenry either - rolls eyes, dishes out high fives and L'sOL...

    I wouldn’t be surprised if there’ll be a fella soon with a megaphone on the Galway - Limerick trains roaring “Why aren’t ye on yer bikes!!!!” at the passengers...


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    #661
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    I wouldn’t be surprised if there’ll be a fella soon with a megaphone on the Galway - Limerick trains roaring “Why aren’t ye on yer bikes!!!!” at the passengers...

    don't worry they can all get on the velorail from Kiltimagh to Athenry, no news on that project moving forward is there?:D


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