Vatican issues document rejecting idea that people can choose or change gender

TuringBot47 · 11-06-2019 10:56pm

Elemonator wrote: »

All politics aside, I have heard as close as 2%. I helped do some research for this topic while in college.

If you want to visualise that, that's about the same percentage of people who are redheads.

There's no way it's anywhere near that high.

Typical exaggeration to make their cause seem more important.

_blaaz · 11-06-2019 10:57pm

TuringBot47 wrote: »

There's no way it's anywhere near that high.

Typical exaggeration to make their cause seem more important.

On an international context maybe.....some south pacific nations would have large transgender communties afaik.....but be a near non issue in western culture?

cgcsb · 11-06-2019 10:58pm

Always curious why people get so annoyed over these church statements. Like yeah that's what they think, that's partly why they're deeply unpopular and their business model is failing in Europe.

Tilikum17 · 11-06-2019 11:02pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Always curious why people get so annoyed over these church statements. Like yeah that's what they think, that's partly why they're deeply unpopular and their business model is failing in Europe.

30 years from now they’ll be virtual non existent in this country.

Moving onto countries in Africa that haven’t a pot to piss in.

Rotten *****.

cursai · 11-06-2019 11:27pm

Tilikum17 wrote: »

30 years from now they’ll be virtual non existent in this country.

Moving onto countries in Africa that haven’t a pot to piss in.

Rotten *****.

Nonsense. They'll still be here. People will still have a need for spiritual guidance, whether or not it only exists in their own heads............

They'll be known as progressive trans-religionaries.

ILoveYourVibes · 12-06-2019 12:56am

Take control of the schools and hospitals and they are gone.

paleoperson · 12-06-2019 3:30pm

Tilikum17 wrote: »

30 years from now they’ll be virtual non existent in this country.

Moving onto countries in Africa that haven’t a pot to piss in.

Rotten *****.

Same goes for trans people. It's already on the downturn.

Trans ideology is a crud.

12-06-2019 5:53pm

paleoperson wrote: »

I reckon he's going to say "I was just being sarcastic, I thought it was obvious".

It obviously wasn't and you knew people could misinterpret you. When you act like that you're trolling, even if you put your hand up to it afterwards that doesn't make it not a troll.

We're in a world with many crazies so pretending that someone else should know that you aren't one is just misleading and trolling.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Bear in mind I grew up in a world where gay people hid their sexuality. My daughter volunteers in a Community group, where they have an LGBT group. Strangely enough, one member, who happens to be gay, admitted last night that she didn't fully understand what it was to be trans - so how are the rest of us meant to understand it, when any deviation from " Of course, you can change the meaning of words to mean what ever you want" results in accusations of trolling?

I'm not trolling. I don't care what people do with their lives, if they're not hurting others - but if I'm happy to accept how other people view life and sexuality, I expect the same level of respect in return.

As to this business of children receiving sex change hormones - that's crazy. I've raised tomboys who wished they were boys, who are now mothers, and laugh at their tomboy antics.

I'm sure there are genuinely people who are trans - but I don't believe they can be identified as young children. I've also known people who come out as gay as teenagers, who decide a few years later that they're heterosexual, just as some have come out as gay, and actually are gay.

Or, to put it another way - wait until kids are mature enough to make a responsible decision before rushing down the sex change route.

Elemonator · 13-06-2019 12:38pm

TuringBot47 wrote: »

There's no way it's anywhere near that high.

Typical exaggeration to make their cause seem more important.

I really doubt that. 2% is backed by academic studies.

Older research systems seemed to suggest that the rate of intersex was roughly about 0.5% of the population but that research only referred to one intersex trait which was ambiguous genitalia. It can come in various forms however (sex chromosome composition, gonadal structure, hormone levels, and the structure of the internal genital duct systems and external genitalia). 1.7%
is an estimate given was Anne Fausto Sterling at Brown University who specialises in biology. Another academic puts it at a higher rate again. You can check out the article “How Sexually Dimorphic Are We?” published in the American Journal of Human Biology by Blackless.

klaaaz · 13-06-2019 2:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

As to this business of children receiving sex change hormones - that's crazy. I've raised tomboys who wished they were boys, who are now mothers, and laugh at their tomboy antics.

Kids do not receive sex change hormones in this country unless you're talking about 16 yr olds. Depends on your definition of kid

Deleted User wrote: »

Or, to put it another way - wait until kids are mature enough to make a responsible decision before rushing down the sex change route.

Kids(that definition again) do not get sex change surgery either until they're 16 but I don't think they has ever been a case of an Irish 16 yr old getting sex change surgery. If there was, we would have heard the loud condemnation from the tabloids, the Vatican supporters and the tiny minority of posters here who are obsessed with condemning trans issues.

Elemonator wrote:

I really doubt that. 2% is backed by academic studies.

In this country, there has been from the last count under 400 people changing gender by obtaining gender recognition certs. A recent controversial Primetime program stated about a dozen children under 18(likely 16-18 yrs old) who changed gender, that's out of 900,000 plus pupils. That tiny number of people generate such rage and vitriol in some people, quite amazing.

olestoepoke · 13-06-2019 2:09pm

FFred wrote: »

Man has Willy.
Woman has front bum.
End.

:D

13-06-2019 2:25pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Kids do not receive sex change hormones in this country unless you're talking about 16 yr olds. Depends on your definition of kid

Kids(that definition again) do not get sex change surgery either until they're 16 but I don't think they has ever been a case of an Irish 16 yr old getting sex change surgery. If there was, we would have heard the loud condemnation from the tabloids, the Vatican supporters and the tiny minority of posters here who are obsessed with condemning trans issues.

In this country, there has been from the last count under 400 people changing gender by obtaining gender recognition certs. A recent controversial Primetime program stated about a dozen children under 18(likely 16-18 yrs old) who changed gender, that's out of 900,000 plus pupils. That tiny number of people generate such rage and vitriol in some people, quite amazing.

16 is still a kid, in my book.

They're still exploring who they are, and some of them are still exploring their sexuality.

Better be sure someone wants a sex change, than have regrets later. I.M.O., of course.

Neyite · 13-06-2019 3:22pm

Of course the Vatican was going to say this. Dunno why anyone is surprised. It's a Cis-men only club.They've kept women out of the clergy for millennia. In the era of self-ID and acceptance of gender fluidity they can't risk a woman getting in by transing, or risk people already in the club becoming women. Because then the cis-women will want in as well. And that would really make the old farts in Rome shít themselves.

TuringBot47 · 13-06-2019 3:48pm

klaaaz wrote: »

That tiny number of people generate such rage and vitriol in some people, quite amazing.

And there's the poor victim syndrome again.
In fairness I imagine most people consider trans people to be something of an amusement like someone with turrets syndrome.
There's no rage and vitriol.

But when the "extremists" in the trans community state and push for the state to legal enforce their view that they are 100% indistinguishable from whatever sex/gender they identify with, then people will call them out over it.

Neyite wrote: »

Of course the Vatican was going to say this. Dunno why anyone is surprised. It's a Cis-men only club.They've kept women out of the clergy for millennia. In the era of self-ID and acceptance of gender fluidity they can't risk a woman getting in by transing, or risk people already in the club becoming women. Because then the cis-women will want in as well. And that would really make the old farts in Rome shít themselves.

A feminist hijacking a trans thread... it's handbags at dawn here.

If anything I reckon keeping women out of the church was to keep men in it.
If priests were allowed to marry and have kids then there would be more reason/pressure from the missus for them to leave the priesthood.

So I'd argue the complete opposite, the Vatican kept women out to enslave men.

klaaaz · 13-06-2019 4:22pm

TuringBot47 wrote: »

And there's the poor victim syndrome again.
In fairness I imagine most people consider trans people to be something of an amusement like someone with turrets syndrome.
There's no rage and vitriol.

So trans people are to be laughed at and mocked at in your view, so much bitterness in you. That's quite sad.

TuringBot47 wrote: »

But when the "extremists" in the trans community state and push for the state to legal enforce their view that they are 100% indistinguishable from whatever sex/gender they identify with, then people will call them out over it

That has been law since 2015 here in Ireland, nothing extreme about granting people their civil rights.

branie2 · 13-06-2019 5:08pm

I'm Catholic, but I would disagree with the Vatican on this, and their views on homosexuality

NaFirinne · 13-06-2019 5:16pm

where does the whole trans thing start getting ridiculous though.

I mean a grown 40 year old identifying as a 3 year old girl.

I women identifying as a donkey.

All I do is try an respect people the way I would like to be respected. Doesn't mean I understand or comprehend their decisions.

I wonder sometimes though are we enabling people that have a mental illness instead of helping them over come it. I guess time will tell.

klaaaz · 13-06-2019 5:24pm

NaFirinne wrote: »

where does the whole trans thing start getting ridiculous though.

I mean a grown 40 year old identifying as a 3 year old girl.

I women identifying as a donkey.

All I do is try an respect people the way I would like to be respected. Doesn't mean I understand or comprehend their decisions.

I wonder sometimes though are we enabling people that have a mental illness instead of helping them over come it. I guess time will tell.

None of that is transgender.

TuringBot47 · 13-06-2019 6:27pm

klaaaz wrote: »

So trans people are to be laughed at and mocked at in your view, so much bitterness in you. That's quite sad.

Where did I say laughed at and mocked ?
There's a difference between regarding someone with amusement and laughing/mocking them to their face.

At most, I don't like the social media attacks on peoples reputation/career when the trans activists target them.

Some of the adjectives you leak like bitterness and sad are actually quite telling, you're projecting your own feelings.

klaaaz · 13-06-2019 6:34pm

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Where did I say laughed at and mocked ?
There's a difference between regarding someone with amusement and laughing/mocking them to their face.

At most, I don't like the social media attacks on peoples reputation/career when the trans activists target them.

Some of the adjectives you leak like bitterness and sad are actually quite telling, you're projecting your own feelings.

What's so amusing about transgender people that causes you to laugh at them?

GrumpyMe · 13-06-2019 6:35pm

"Vatican rejects idea people can choose or change genders"
Fair's fair!
"People reject idea Vatican can choose or change breads"

TuringBot47 · 13-06-2019 6:42pm

klaaaz wrote: »

What's so amusing about transgender people that causes you to laugh at them?

Didn't say I laughed at them either.
Brendan O'Carroll pretends to be a woman and I certainly don't laugh at him.

Men in drag have always been the subject of comedy especially old BBC material.
Comedy can be something that's too incredible / ridiculous to fully accept.

klaaaz · 13-06-2019 8:42pm

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Didn't say I laughed at them either.
Brendan O'Carroll pretends to be a woman and I certainly don't laugh at him.

Men in drag have always been the subject of comedy especially old BBC material.
Comedy can be something that's too incredible / ridiculous to fully accept.

Drag is not transgender.

TuringBot47 · 13-06-2019 9:50pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Drag is not transgender.

But throw in some hormones and a few snips from a surgeon and what's the difference?

Ruraldweller56 · 13-06-2019 9:51pm

the culture of deference wrote: »

What can you say anymore about the RCC. They are just determined to destroy themselves from the inside. Remember they control our schools.

The Vatican has issued an official document rejecting the idea that people can choose or change their genders and insisting on the sexual “complementarity” of men and women to make babies.

Pope Francis has repeatedly argued the position that people cannot choose their genders.
The document called for a new alliance among families, schools and society to offer a “positive and prudent sexual education” in Catholic schools so children learn the “full original truth of masculinity and femininity”.

It called gender fluidity a symptom of the “confused concept of freedom” and “momentary desires” that characterise post-modern culture.

It rejected terms such as “intersex” and “transgender” and said the purpose of the biological “complementarity” of the male and female sex organs was to ensure procreation.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/vatican-rejects-idea-people-can-choose-or-change-genders-1.3921015

Thank God. Some common sense at last.

branie2 · 14-06-2019 12:15am

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

Thank God. Some common sense at last.

bigotry, actually

Ruraldweller56 · 14-06-2019 12:18am

branie2 wrote: »

bigotry, actually

Ah give over man. Lots of us are sick to death of listening to this crap.

Live and let live my hole.

branie2 · 14-06-2019 12:22am

And lots of us are sick of hearing about transgender people being called mentally ill, when they're actually not.

Ruraldweller56 · 14-06-2019 12:25am

branie2 wrote: »

And lots of us are sick of hearing about transgender people being called mentally ill, when they're actually not.

Wow. Go them.

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2019 12:31am

branie2 wrote: »

And lots of us are sick of hearing about transgender people being called mentally ill, when they're actually not.

Gender dysphoria is a recognised mental illness

branie2 · 14-06-2019 12:32am

not by the WHO though

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2019 12:32am

branie2 wrote: »

not by the WHO though

It was in the DSM for decades until activists lobbied to have it removed.

Dante7 · 14-06-2019 12:45am

branie2 wrote: »

And lots of us are sick of hearing about transgender people being called mentally ill, when they're actually not.

Where do you think their dysphoria resides? In their liver?

Gimme A Pound · 14-06-2019 12:58am

Dante7 wrote: »

Where do you think their dysphoria resides? In their liver?

Why not treat them just with psychiatric drugs so? It's part of it yes but recognised medically that it's not the full story.

batgoat · 14-06-2019 2:43am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It was in the DSM for decades until activists lobbied to have it removed.

This is the exact same claim that people have made in the past about homosexuality being removed from the dsm... A working group concluded that moving to gender identity disorder and keeping the classification to maintain supports for the affected person made the most sense. Nothing to do with lobbyists, just that knowledge has changed.

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Where did I say laughed at and mocked ?
There's a difference between regarding someone with amusement and laughing/mocking them to their face.

At most, I don't like the social media attacks on peoples reputation/career when the trans activists target them.

Some of the adjectives you leak like bitterness and sad are actually quite telling, you're projecting your own feelings.

In fairness, the fact you're amused by people who are transgender or have tourettes is a terrible reflection upon you...

Sam Quentin · 14-06-2019 3:13am

Believe it or not,.. there are millions upon MILLIONS of people who agree with and follow the Catholic churches teachings and believes. Spin that and twist that whatever way you want. It's not gonna change. Amen.

mikemac2 · 14-06-2019 4:04am

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok. (Prepares to be annihilated!)

This old Fogey can't keep up with all the definitions of sexuality that keep appearing.

*raises hand*

Me too

Urban dictionary is handy for all the unfamiliar words

America today, rest of world tomorrow

batgoat · 14-06-2019 4:05am

Sam Quentin wrote: »

Believe it or not,.. there are millions upon MILLIONS of people who agree with and follow the Catholic churches teachings and believes. Spin that and twist that whatever way you want. It's not gonna change. Amen.

But very few in Ireland that will blindly follow everything as demonstrated by last two referendums.

mikemac2 · 14-06-2019 4:13am

Hobosan wrote: »

Have you accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior?

That’s more Protestant tbh

TuringBot47 · 14-06-2019 7:51am

batgoat wrote: »

In fairness, the fact you're amused by people who are transgender or have tourettes is a terrible reflection upon you...

I'm also amused by your opinion of me and give it the same level of credibility and respect.

klaaaz · 14-06-2019 9:44am

TuringBot47 wrote: »

I'm also amused by your opinion of me and give it the same level of credibility and respect.

Ignorance is nothing to be proud of.

Ruraldweller56 · 14-06-2019 10:17am

batgoat wrote: »

This is the exact same claim that people have made in the past about homosexuality being removed from the dsm... A working group concluded that moving to gender identity disorder and keeping the classification to maintain supports for the affected person made the most sense. Nothing to do with lobbyists, just that knowledge has changed.

In fairness, the fact you're amused by people who are transgender or have tourettes is a terrible reflection upon you...

Definitely nothing to be amused about.

TuringBot47 · 14-06-2019 11:28am

klaaaz wrote: »

Ignorance is nothing to be proud of.

It's not.
But I am well informed and capable of making up my own mind on the subject.

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

Definitely nothing to be amused about.

People slipping on banana peels, cars being caught in the bus lane by the guards,
men wearing dresses, peoples pant splitting... it's all in the same ballpark.

batgoat · 14-06-2019 11:40am

TuringBot47 wrote: »

It's not.
But I am well informed and capable of making up my own mind on the subject.

People slipping on banana peels, cars being caught in the bus lane by the guards,
men wearing dresses, peoples pant splitting... it's all in the same ballpark.

People who have Tourettes are like people who slip on banana peels? People who identify as a different gender are too? Even though it's a very real thing... You sound neither well informed or like a nice person..

TuringBot47 · 14-06-2019 12:14pm

batgoat wrote: »

You sound neither well informed or like a nice person..

Demonizing people with other opinions is a classic denial tactic.
Don't forgot to throw in "transphobe" too.
Or maybe rebrand it to "trans-denier" as it hooks into the legitimacy of other terms like anti-vaxxers, anti-evolutionists and holocaust-deniers.

As a man I know no procedure on earth will transform me into a woman regardless of whatever self image I might have.

batgoat · 14-06-2019 12:25pm

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Demonizing people with other opinions is a classic denial tactic.
Don't forgot to throw in "transphobe" too.
Or maybe rebrand it to "trans-denier" as it hooks into the legitimacy of other terms like anti-vaxxers, anti-evolutionists and holocaust-deniers.

As a man I know no procedure on earth will transform me into a woman regardless of whatever self image I might have.

You're the guy who says he's amused by both transgender and people with Tourettes... I'm literally just saying how your statements come across...

TuringBot47 · 14-06-2019 12:38pm

batgoat wrote: »

You're the guy who says he's amused by both transgender and people with Tourettes... I'm literally just saying how your statements come across...

Welcome to human nature 101, at least for most men.
Don't read the newspapers you'd probably faint in shock.

batgoat · 14-06-2019 12:47pm

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Welcome to human nature 101, at least for most men.
Don't read the newspapers you'd probably faint in shock.

Cool, I'll just leave it at. I don't treat vulnerable people as objects of amusement. It's a pretty cruel view to take.

klaaaz · 14-06-2019 12:48pm

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Welcome to human nature 101, at least for most men.
Don't read the newspapers you'd probably faint in shock.

So says the person offended by people with tourettes or anyone who is different to his mighty wonderful self.

TuringBot47 · 14-06-2019 1:09pm

batgoat wrote: »

Cool, I'll just leave it at. I don't treat vulnerable people as objects of amusement.

I don't treat them as objects of amusement either.
There's a difference between opinions and behavior.

klaaaz wrote: »

So says the person offended by people with tourettes or anyone who is different to his mighty wonderful self.

I'm not offended by trans in general at all, only the trans activists who target people, celebrities even those in the health care sector who don't subscribe to their doctrine. People has lost contracts, jobs, businesses damaged etc.

Using social media and the legal system as a weapon against them.

Vatican issues document rejecting idea that people can choose or change gender

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