Home heating automation

Blowheads wrote: »

Are ye not fond of climote?
Do we like tado?
What about hive?

You really need to decide what you want from a system.

Tado will give you advanced control per radiator, essentially turning each rad into it's own zone, whereas Hive will turn the whole boiler on or off based on the temperature read from where it's cited.

I prefer the Tado type approach where the front north facing side of the house will be cooler than the rear, so an upstairs downstairs split doesn't necessarily fit.

Do you need an installer to put in Tado TRVs?

I’m moving into a house with 2 zones and HW too. I and have a nest but would like HomeKit, and have to get something for the second zone anyway.

Debating whether to get a second nest or go for something else and the North/South point is a good one I think!

championc wrote: »

Tado is a Single Zone (and HW when an Extension Kit is added) system. A Tado Smart Thermostat can only support 10 rads. If you had 10 rads in total or less, you could just set one zone permanently open, and the rads will look after themselves.

@deezell is your expert on here. He's better to guide you both. I can't remember if you can run Tado with two WIRED Smart Thermostats each wired to it's own zone valve - he'll know

Yes you can. If there already are wired wall stats for both zones, Tado is one of few smart stats with a direct wire in option. If you want HW control then you need the wireless receiver aka extension kit, which has a relay for the HW zone and also a relay for the Tado stat it's paired too, making that stat wireless if needed. Tado, afaik to date, still only supports one wireless stat per installation, additional stats must be wired direct to their zone valves.

TRVs are wireless to the Tado bridge device, and are paired to the stat of the zone they are fitted in. If uou have existing mechanical TRVs, Tado TRVs are drop in replacements. Otherwise you will need a plumber or good DIY skills to replace the radiator control valve body with a TRV compatible one. Tado trv sensor wall stats are wireless, but these are just used as sensors for TRVs when the TRV location is not accurately returning measured room temperature.
The latest versions of Tado can be controlled by Homekit.

If you create a "room" in the settings when you start adding "devices" i.e TRV or Room Thermostat it will ask you what room to allocate it to. You can add multiple "devices" to the same room.

If TRV's and Room Thermostats are added to the same room the Room Thermostat can over ride the TRV's

Bawnmore wrote: »

Worth noting that you need to delete and re-add the device - you can't change it to add it to a room if it's not added to one originally (or at least, I couldn't figure out how).

If you go into the Devices in settings and open the device you wish to allocate it then offers you an edit option to change its designated room.

paulhardman wrote: »

Hi all, I've read an awful lot of this thread this morning and just am looking for some advice.

We've got a 3-zone (upstairs CH, downstairs CH and HW) Daikin air to water heat pump, controlled by EPH Curve CDTPs linked to EPH motorised valves (the big yellow yokes). HW is always on, and we have solar for the water too.

I want to replace one of the zones with a Nest E, as this looks like the least painful option. The stats have connections on L, N, 2 and 3, and L is jumped across to 2.

Is it going to be straightforward enough to install the E - just put the heatlink in place of the existing stat, and not use the N wire?

Correct, nest heatlink E is battery powered, so you are just connecting the live to Com and the wire from EPH 3 to NO, normally open.
Yoy could also use an alternative wired smart stat such as a Tado, or a Netatmo, a single device instead of the two battery/charger powered devices of the Nest E. Either of these stats is a complete replacement for the EPH, though bsattery operated. Also consider the HubR receiver of a Drayton wiser wireless stat, which could be installed and powered from the existing mains at the EPH point, the battery powered wiser stat located in a suitable area.

Blowheads wrote: »

Hi,
The Drayton Wiser Ch system says its no compatible with gravity fed systems. I have mix of oil and solid fuel so have a header tank. Does this make my system gravity fed and incompatible?
Or am I still ok to go ahead?

From controller point of view, the fundamental difference between fully pumped and gravity systems is the ability to only switch heating on, without heating water.

If you can independently heat the house and not heat water in the tank, then you don't have gravity system.

Maybe one for Deezel,,,,

Current Tado is setup for pumped CH and gravity HW.

Getting a new boiler tomorrow and TRVs fitted to the rads, (Zone valves involves new pipe work etc so didn’t want to go down that road)

My question is, what should the new wiring setup be for the extension kit?

Boiler has pump connections on it.

Thanks

maxamillius wrote: »

Maybe one for Deezel,,,,

Current Tado is setup for pumped CH and gravity HW.

Getting a new boiler tomorrow and TRVs fitted to the rads, (Zone valves involves new pipe work etc so didn’t want to go down that road)

My question is, what should the new wiring setup be for the extension kit?

Boiler has pump connections on it.

Thanks

HW relay to the boiler, CH relay to the pump, and the system configured to operate in Gravity mode. Support will push this to the Tado, or you can look back here to the configuration I posted some months ago, where you can put the systen in gravity mode yourself. I'll have a dig back, and repeat the steps.
The new extension kit has two full spdt relays. A simple bit of wiring will set these to operate in Gravity mode. Gravity mode is where one relay ( the HW one) closes and fires the boiler for either timed event, HW or CH. The CH relay only closes for CH events and is used to power the circulation pump. Some basic two channel timers will have a little switch to select this mode. A timer with spdt relays, i.e, NO, Com and NC terminals for each channel can be easily wired to replicate gravity control. Tado made it soft configurable in their old ext. kit, their new one is more versatile with the full set of terminals, so should be soft configurable, or wired configurable. I'll attach link for eired gravity for the nest which is similar to the new tado ext kit.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V9ZjV3nwFZpFnWsGfvakpGW2QauSwT-n/view?usp=drivesdk

maxamillius wrote: »

That’s the way I have it setup at the moment, so it just stays in gravity mode?!

For some reason I thought the connections on the new boiler meant it was just one switched live so boiler and pump come on at same time,i could be wrong on that!!

You don't have to use the pump connection from the boiler interconnection, but... as you say you're getting a new boiler, it's most likely a condenser boiler. Due to the design of these, some are not recommended for gravity heat exchange, due to smaller fluid channels in the heat exchangers, and also the location of the flow return pipes. The grant condensor boiler that my son bought to replace an ancient "80s boiler had flow and return pipes routed to the top of the boiler, 22mm connectors, not suitable for gravity connection to the cylinder. The old boiler had standard 1" connectors located top and bottom of the jacket, on both sides to facilitate gravity only for HW and pumped for CH, though few would install this way. Anyway, we had to install 2 motorised valves and go fully pumped.
I replaced my own boiler with a firebird condensor, and I was happier to see it was designed with a more traditional thermal flow, 1" plugs top and bottom both sides, making it a direct drop in for the old boiler, though I didn't use gravity for the HW.
You'll have to check if your new boiler is suitable for gravity, if not, you'll need at least one zone valve on the CH circuit to facilitate HW only. With a single valve, you will still need the ext kit to operate in gravity mode, with the HW relay firing the now pumped boiler for both CH and HW, while the CH relay just opens the CH valves.

maxamillius wrote: »

So boiler is a 50/90 grant condensing oil boiler, however it’s moving outside so gravity isn’t an option anymore.

I’ll have TRVs on all rads so if I want HW separate I presume I just close all TRVs.

I suppose the question is do I then only use one relay on the extension kit to fire the boiler and the pump?

If you have full TRVs, that would work, but both relays still required. You can just bind the two relay NO terminals together to the boiler/pump, live to both COMs, then the boiler will fire for either event, HW or a TRV CH call. HW will obviously heat during a CH only call.

Out of interest, if you were to place a Tado TRV on the flow into hot water cylinder, would that act as a temperature limit? IE heat the water to a certain temp and then shut off.

championc wrote: »

It would surely only measure the air temperature around the TRV. It doesn't measure the temperature of the water in the pipe nor does it have any form of probe that could be fixed to the tank / cylinder

Ye that’s a fair point ha, wonder is there a market for something like that but with a probe attached. Saves all the wiring required for zone valves etc!!

Louisemurp wrote: »

Hi all, I have read most of this thread & seeing great reviews for Tado & Drayton.

We got a quotation to install 3 way zoning (upstairs/downstairs/water) , install EPH Amber & TRV on each rads (numbered 1-5). We already have a new grant vortex boiler installed 2yrs ago... now I'm questioning myself... should I be going the smart way i.e Tado/Drayton or Honeywell with the zoning or leave the zoning �� We're getting a bigger cylinder installed too so budget is 2k (incl SEAI grant) if smart is more expensive than EPH i don't know... any opinions greatly appreciated ðŸ‘

Previously before selecting the honeywell evohome, I got a quote on splitting the house into 3 zones for the EPH Ember. At the time they didn't have any support for individual TRVs on radiators so I dropped it due to cost of reworking the plumbing and limitations in that to heat any single room in the downstairs or upstairs zones, you have to heat all of it.

Personally due to the layout of our house and mixed usage between upstairs/downstairs, I wouldn't change my mind now if I had to go back and do it again. I can use the study in the morning at weekends and just turn on the heating for just that room for a couple of hours without heating the rest of the house unless it needs it, and that room is a little colder than the rest.

Looking at the cost of parts

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/eph-controls-s-plan-3-zone-rf-control-pack/588HK puts the ember system at ~€500 but no TRVs mentioned.

For the evohome system you'll want the control unit, hot water, a motorized valve for the hot water, and some number of TRVs so it's cost will depend on how many radiators you have.

I originally got a starter pack from https://theevohomeshop.co.uk/honeywell-home-evohome-connected-value-packs/75-honeywell-evohome-wi-fi-connected-value-pack-a.html and added a motorized valve and 3 additional TRVs to it. Not sure if they have the VAT sorted for Ireland there yet. I would contact them to be sure before buying.

By comparison getting the different parts from screwfix looks a lot more expensive to me:
control: €307 https://www.screwfix.ie/p/honeywell-home-evohome-wi-fi-connected-thermostat-pack/4512h
hot water: €116 https://www.screwfix.ie/p/honeywell-home-evohome-hot-water-kit/8406h
1x Motorized valve (hot water): €100 https://www.screwfix.ie/p/honeywell-home-v4043h-2-port-motorised-valve-22mm-22mm-compression/31480
4xTRVs: €294 https://www.screwfix.ie/p/honeywell-home-evohome-radiator-multi-zone-kit/5769H

If you go the honeywell/tado approach for the heating control grant the plumber we got indicated that we would need the automatic TRVs on all radiators in the house to comply. I'm not entirely sure that is actually needed as not having one on some radiators just means they won't activate the heating to warm up that area. So when pricing I'd assume you need the motorized ones for all radiators and if you can skip one subsequently and leave it as a partial heat dump with a manual TRV instead it will be a bonus.

The ability to get a starter pack or not may change your mind on the cost.

While even the EPH Ember system will help with heating your house more efficiently, I think they are really missing out on not integrating motorized radiator TRVs as an option. What I saw from the app looked slicker than what I have with the honeywell mobile app, however tbh, the wall control unit works really well in laying out the schedule so I can live with the app being less polished.

Looking at the EPH Ember system I'm not seeing much mention about TRVs being integrated with it, so are these manual TRVs that you set in the room to get the desired temperature and then the 3 zone controls manage when the heat is enabled?

To give you something to compare, have a 3 bed house with 1 ensuite, main bathroom, large downstairs study, separate utility room with adjoining bathroom, kitchen/dinning area, and sitting room. Since the last week of Dec we've spend a total of €430 on heating oil, €150 of that being 2 weeks ago as we're just looking to keep some oil in the tank until the replacement is installed and that was the smallest amount we could get. Both working full time from home, so using the house 100% of the time, and €280 did us for just under 4 months.

We have 2 offices at home at the moment, so the honeywell system has been really helpful in being able to heat the downstairs hallway, study (office 1) and upstairs box (office 2) during the day, without needing to heat the rest of the house until evening when the heating comes on for a while in the main bedroom before 6pm to get it to the desired temp for an hour, and at the same time the kitchen and sitting room are also brought up to the desired temp, while both offices turn off. There are 11 TRVs in the house in addition to the motorized valve for the hot water, to cover all radiators.

I nearly forgot to mention, while the rest of the house isn't kept warm during the day, the system does ensure everywhere is kept at a baseline temp of 18C with the exception of the utility which we leave at 17C all the time. Even if we leave for a few days it can keep the house at 16C, or when it's quite warm outside we can quickly ask it to drop the temp by 3C to the min of 16C everywhere with a single option select. So the house never gets really really cold unless we ever run out of oil.

The other thing, I nearly forgot about was there is no immersion control for the honeywell system. That's the only piece to me that is missing. So we have a manual timer unit for that, but I'm sure I can probably rig something with a home automation system in the future to sort it out. For the most part we don't use it at all except if we need a quick boost combined with the oil heating to get a lot of hot water in a real hurry.