EU to recommend abolishing DST

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 14-11-2019 2:53pm

highdef wrote: »

Around the winter solstice, this would be the case. Can't disagree there however it's later in the winter when it becomes more beneficial. With all year round Irish Standard Time, sunset at the end of February would be about 19:00 in Dublin.....add about 10 minutes to that if you are in the southwest or west of the country. With a 19:00 sunset, you'd have about 20 minutes or so of usable light as long as it's not overcast. To me, that is a massive increase of post-work light and longer time for outdoor activities at the weekends/when not working.

By mid March, you've another 30 minutes of daylight available with sunset around about 19:30 with usable daylight heading for 20:00. At this stage the weather is usually picking up somewhat and going for walks, gardening, outdoor painting, etc are tasks that become more regular. This is still about a fortnight before the clocks would be changing and I know from my own point of view, every week counts greatly as I await the longer evenings from late March onwards.

Anyone who truly wants to do outdoor exercise doesn’t let darkness stop them. Colour me dubious that we’ll see any winter (or early spring and late autumn) outdoor exercising upswing if we go to year-round summertime. A family member runs a rural walking group and they go out every day of the week in varying numbers right throughout the year and often in darkness. I loved cycling in the dark myself. Very refreshing.

As for outdoor tasks, the best compromise to maximise daylight whilst not having those horribly dark midwinter mornings would be to move the clock change dates a bit to earlier and later in the year respectively, not do away with them entirely. As said earlier, I envy anyone for whom changing clocks is a big problem in their life.

facehugger99 · 14-11-2019 3:17pm

Gerald Echoing Birthmark wrote: »

No, I don't. I'm sure you can look it up if you're interested.

No sign of it online.

In my view it's not a credible result and I wouldn't be changing that view unless I'm convinced otherwise.

highdef · 14-11-2019 3:30pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Anyone who truly wants to do outdoor exercise doesn’t let darkness stop them. Colour me dubious that we’ll see any winter (or early spring and late autumn) outdoor exercising upswing if we go to year-round summertime. A family member runs a rural walking group and they go out every day of the week in varying numbers right throughout the year and often in darkness. I loved cycling in the dark myself. Very refreshing.

I also live in a rural area with no footpaths, narrow roads where two cars can only pass at certain spots and of course no lighting. Walking the 5km around the local loop in darkness is far from pleasant and there is the added danger from road vehicles (I've a torch and a high viz at all times and dog has a collar with flashing lights so in theory it should not be an issue). Looking at my average steps per day, month by month, it's very clear that the extended daylight makes a big difference in how much I walk or am at least on foot doing gardening or whatever outside.

Average Steps per day:

Jan 2018: 8114
Feb 2018: 9097
March 2018: 9135
April 2018: 13358
May 2018: 14509
June 2018: 12807
July 2018: 10738
Aug 2018: 11452
Sep 2018: 11125
Oct 2018: 10881
Nov 2018: 8993
Dec 2018: 9230
Jan 2019: 8830
Feb 2019: 11428
March 2019: 10598
April 2019: 12307
May 2019: 12414
June 2019: 13480
July 2019: 14277
Aug 2019: 14245
Sep 2019: 11433
Oct 2019: 9375
Nov 2019: 9539

Now that's a VERY obvious pattern going on there, purely due to the lack of available daylight meaning my post work walks on weekdays are far shorter due to lack of usable light in the area where I live. A large percentage of the people living in my village walk to 5km "loop" every day but this drops off dramatically during weekday evenings when it's dark when people get home from work and I'm pretty sure that this is repeated countless times in other rural communities.

I spoke with a local farmer about the clocks and he said it wouldn't bother him as it's dark for several hours after he starts his day anyway and it doesn't cause him any issues whatsoever.

14-11-2019 3:35pm

highdef wrote: »

Now that's a VERY obvious pattern going on there,

Yeah, TV is shíte in the summer

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 14-11-2019 3:39pm

highdef wrote: »

I also live in a rural area with no footpaths, narrow roads where two cars can only pass at certain spots and of course no lighting. Walking the 5km around the local loop in darkness is far from pleasant and there is the added danger from road vehicles (I've a torch and a high viz at all times and dog has a collar with flashing lights so in theory it should not be an issue). Looking at my average steps per day, month by month, it's very clear that the extended daylight makes a big difference in how much I walk or am at least on foot doing gardening or whatever outside.

Average Steps per day:

Jan 2018: 8114
Feb 2018: 9097
March 2018: 9135
April 2018: 13358
May 2018: 14509
June 2018: 12807
July 2018: 10738
Aug 2018: 11452
Sep 2018: 11125
Oct 2018: 10881
Nov 2018: 8993
Dec 2018: 9230
Jan 2019: 8830
Feb 2019: 11428
March 2019: 10598
April 2019: 12307
May 2019: 12414
June 2019: 13480
July 2019: 14277
Aug 2019: 14245
Sep 2019: 11433
Oct 2019: 9375
Nov 2019: 9539

Now that's a VERY obvious pattern going on there, purely due to the lack of available daylight meaning my post work walks on weekdays are far shorter due to lack of usable light in the area where I live. A large percentage of the people living in my village walk to 5km "loop" every day but this drops off dramatically during weekday evenings when it's dark when people get home from work and I'm pretty sure that this is repeated countless times in other rural communities.

I spoke with a local farmer about the clocks and he said it wouldn't bother him as it's dark for several hours after he starts his day anyway and it doesn't cause him any issues whatsoever.

That all pretty much highlights my point. The walking group I speak of has to contend with literally everything you list there and it doesn’t stop them. They do far more than 5k loop walks. That would be a stroll to them. People speaking of all the things they will do with the small bit of evening light gained - hope springs eternal. The brightness won’t suddenly make it warmer either.

highdef · 14-11-2019 3:51pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That all pretty much highlights my point. The walking group I speak of has to contend with literally everything you list there and it doesn’t stop them. They do far more than 5k loop walks. That would be a stroll to them. People speaking of all the things they will do with the small bit of evening light gained - hope springs eternal. The brightness won’t suddenly make it warmer either.

I don't mind the cold, it's the dark that puts me off walking.....pitch black. The figures I show are unarguably a reflection of the amount of walking/on my feet exercise I get on average every day so yes, the small bit of evening light gained would make a substantial difference for me. I go out for a shorter walk with the dog after work when it's dark and I rarely bump into anyone. When I walk at the same time when it's daylight out, I pass several people/groups of people.

The village goes into a semi hibernation during the winter time evenings and once we get the extra hour back in late March there are literally dozens of people out walking , when there were few or none at the same time before the clock change. Plus many of those neighbours who I might chat to will be saying that they're back out walking after work and are trying to lose a few pounds/kilos of weights that they have gained over the winter months. When the clocks go forward in late March, it instantly gives the whole village enough time to complete the 5k loop in daylight after getting home from work on a weekday.

ForestFire · 14-11-2019 3:56pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

As said earlier, I envy anyone for whom changing clocks is a big problem in their life.

I posted this info 4 months ago, so worth posting again, as some people actually think the reasons to stop changing the clocks is in anyway related to the physical task.....

- stroke was 8% higher in the two days after daylight saving time.
- Cancer victims were 25% more likely to have a stroke during that time, and people older than 65 were 20% more likely to have a stroke.
- associated with a 10% increase in heart attacks
- more workplace injuries, auto accidents and even hinders moral decision making

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/11/h...cts/index.html

Depression Trigger

- A Danish study found an 11% increase in depression cases after the time seasonal change. The cases dissipated gradually after 10 weeks.
- An Australian study found that male suicide rates increased the days after the spring and fall DST shift.

https://www.timeanddate.com/time/dst...ng-health.html

- IVF success rates drop in March
- Heart attacks spike after the spring time change

https://www.health.com/sleep/dayligh...e-health-risks

Other Links
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wel...nce/ar-BBPd9px

https://www.mnn.com/health/fitness-w...ht-saving-time

prunudo · 14-11-2019 4:38pm

-Heart attacks spike after the spring time change

Maybe thats because all the unhealthy people who have done nothing all winter over exert themselves with the excitement of the brighter evenings. They really need to ease themselves into fitness.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 14-11-2019 8:07pm

ForestFire wrote: »

I posted this info 4 months ago, so worth posting again, as some people actually think the reasons to stop changing the clocks is in anyway related to the physical task.....

- stroke was 8% higher in the two days after daylight saving time.
- Cancer victims were 25% more likely to have a stroke during that time, and people older than 65 were 20% more likely to have a stroke.
- associated with a 10% increase in heart attacks
- more workplace injuries, auto accidents and even hinders moral decision making

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/11/h...cts/index.html

Depression Trigger

- A Danish study found an 11% increase in depression cases after the time seasonal change. The cases dissipated gradually after 10 weeks.
- An Australian study found that male suicide rates increased the days after the spring and fall DST shift.

https://www.timeanddate.com/time/dst...ng-health.html

- IVF success rates drop in March
- Heart attacks spike after the spring time change

https://www.health.com/sleep/dayligh...e-health-risks

Other Links
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wel...nce/ar-BBPd9px

https://www.mnn.com/health/fitness-w...ht-saving-time

Not one of those links works.

I look on stats published by media outlets warily. Misinterpretations are incredibly commonplace and journalists are more interested in headlines than analysing the data. I saw an NYTimes article that said that walking a certain distance every week reduces breast cancer recurrence risk by 40-50%. I don’t even know how you’d quantify that. That’s just an example of dubious health science reporting. Many journalist don’t even appear to be qualified to report faithfully on scientific data.

ForestFire · 14-11-2019 9:09pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Not one of those links works.

I look on stats published by media outlets warily. Misinterpretations are incredibly commonplace and journalists are more interested in headlines than analysing the data. I saw an NYTimes article that said that walking a certain distance every week reduces breast cancer recurrence risk by 40-50%. I don’t even know how you’d quantify that. That’s just an example of dubious health science reporting. Many journalist don’t even appear to be qualified to report faithfully on scientific data.

I did say I posted them 3 months ago.... All of the articles linked to proper research and some of these are included below.

Stroke frome American academy neurology
https://www.aan.com/PressRoom/Home/PressRelease/1440

https://www.heart.org/en/news/2018/10/26/can-daylight-saving-time-hurt-the-heart-prepare-now-for-spring

This one has links to other studies
https://journalistsresource.org/studies/environment/energy/daylight-savings-time-health-accidents-energy/

Quantum Erasure · 29-03-2020 2:28pm

When you wake up on Sunday, you might not even realise it’s Sunday. Or the weekend. On Monday morning, when you stumble into your kitchen and see the oven clock reads 08:00, you can go back to bed for another hour. Except you can’t, because it’s actually 09:00. The oven clock hasn’t updated and you’re now late for work. Except you’re not, because you can work from bed. Result.

What’s the point of time, after all, when each day is an excruciating repeat of the one that preceded it, stuck on a loop of endless Zoom calls and Houseparty drinking sessions? Or to put it another way: the clocks changing means even less than it has before. At least the clocks jumping forward an hour takes us (artificially) one hour closer to the end of lockdown.
...

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/clocks-change-uk-2020-daylight-saving-time

Mantis Toboggan · 29-03-2020 3:53pm

No reason why the clocks can't go forward at the end of February.

0lddog · 29-03-2020 4:28pm

If the EU want to do something usefull they could apply themselves to stuff that really matters - like sorting out paying for this Covid hiatus

29-03-2020 4:46pm

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

No reason why the clocks can't go forward at the end of February.

I would prefer it if they did, would then be in sync with the US.

Fr Tod Umptious · 29-03-2020 4:59pm

Some advocated for staying all year summer time because the change of clock twice a year was some sort of inconvenience.

Given the current situation changing clocks twice a year is trivial.

Let's have common sense and keep the status quo.

Mantis Toboggan · 29-03-2020 5:27pm

Permanent summer time would be much more environmentally friendly.

ForestFire · 29-03-2020 5:58pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Some advocated for staying all year summer time because the change of clock twice a year was some sort of inconvenience.

Given the current situation changing clocks twice a year is trivial.

Let's have common sense and keep the status quo.

Who is saying this? If there is anyone I would say they are a small minority, but I like to see a reference to someone that is actually using this as their main/sole reason.

As I said a few time in this thread now, it's not the physical task that's the issue, (which is almost nonexistent now with modern tech), it's the consequences of the chance, to both health and solical life.

Quackster · 29-03-2020 6:03pm

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

No reason why the clocks can't go forward at the end of February.

Well we could have an extra month of summer time and be in sync with North America if summer time was from the first Sunday in March to the first Sunday in November.

ForestFire · 29-03-2020 6:14pm

Quackster wrote: »

Well we could have an extra month of summer time and be in sync with North America if summer time was from the first Sunday in March to the first Sunday in November.

My first preference at the moment is all year summer time (not to be confused with all year summer).

After this I would be willing to give all year winter time a trial, before reverting back to the change system.

Why not even try splitting the 2 and go in between?
Some states in Australia, I believe, have very unusual time zones!

If we do revert or stay with the changes then yes a number of changes to the current system could be done, including adjusting the very later return to summer time after the 21 Dec, to the same time it changes to winter time before this.

Quantum Erasure · 29-03-2020 6:19pm

the whole world should stick to GMT (or UTC or whatever) and just adjust work hours accordingly...

Cork Boy 53 · 29-03-2020 6:24pm

I doubt that the vast majority of people give a flying **** about changing the clocks right now but anyway, if things do return to some semblance of normality, I would be in favour of keeping DST all year round.

LaFuton · 29-03-2020 6:26pm

nnnnnnoooooooooooooooo

Quantum Erasure · 29-03-2020 6:29pm

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

I doubt that the vast majority of people give a flying **** about changing the clocks right now but anyway,

you'd miss the bi-annual time-change threads though, and the pubs closed on Good Friday one as well... Hopefully we'll be back to normal for the annual poppy thread

29-03-2020 6:46pm

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Permanent summer time would be much more environmentally friendly.

Makes no difference whether the lights are on an extra hour in the morning or evening.

Bobblehats · 29-03-2020 6:57pm

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

the whole world should stick to GMT (or UTC or whatever) and just adjust work hours accordingly...

Can’t see it :rolleyes: the half hour difference makes things particularly awkward. And unnecessary it would be at least something to be in the same minute; whatever the hour but then there’s that rubbish on top

kowloon · 29-03-2020 6:59pm

Obligatory spamming of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84aWtseb2-4

See you all for the same next year.

Stark · 29-03-2020 6:59pm

Bobblehats wrote: »

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

the whole world should stick to GMT (or UTC or whatever) and just adjust work hours accordingly...

Can’t see it :rolleyes: the half hour difference makes things particularly awkward. And unnecessary it would be at least something to be in the same minute; whatever the hour but then there’s that rubbish on top

Eh, wut?

Bobblehats · 29-03-2020 7:00pm

Bobblehats wrote: »

Eh, wut?

- there’s a half hour difference some places too

recyclebin · 29-03-2020 7:02pm

Is the EU still going ahead with abolishing DST? What's the latest on this?

29-03-2020 7:56pm

recyclebin wrote: »

Is the EU still going ahead with abolishing DST? What's the latest on this?

Last I heard was that it had been postponed until 2021, but even it happening then is not confirmed.

Mantis Toboggan · 29-03-2020 7:58pm

Quackster wrote: »

Well we could have an extra month of summer time and be in sync with North America if summer time was from the first Sunday in March to the first Sunday in November.

I'd be happy enough with that

the_pen_turner · 29-03-2020 8:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Makes no difference whether the lights are on an extra hour in the morning or evening.

I don't think that's true. I would like to see a study on it
I would guess that the people that get up in the morning and need power will still do it , those that don't get up are still in bed and wont use it either way. lights in jobs are on either way

its in the evening that the saving will be made. 1 hour extra will reduce heating bills and lights on etc and other things dues to people be outside more

Hamsterchops · 29-03-2020 8:32pm

So to save me trawling through this entire thread, here's my question (which may already have been answered)?

Last night four of our radio controlled (analogue) wall clocks changed themselves thanks to the radio beacon situated in Anthorne/Cumbria.

This "atomic" beacon sends out a pulse which is received by millions of clocks & watches in Britain & Ireland, from church clock towers, shop facia clocks, hotels, schools, to all sorts of timepieces that rely on this signal.

So what happens if Europe go ahead with the directive and we agree to follow suit? All our clocks that receive the Anthorne signal will be wrong won't they?

29-03-2020 10:18pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

So to save me trawling through this entire thread, here's my question (which may already have been answered)?

Last night four of our radio controlled (analogue) wall clocks changed themselves thanks to the radio beacon situated in Anthorne/Cumbria.

This "atomic" beacon sends out a pulse which is received by millions of clocks & watches in Britain & Ireland, from church clock towers, shop facia clocks, hotels, schools, to all sorts of timepieces that rely on this signal.

So what happens if Europe go ahead with the directive and we agree to follow suit? All our clocks that receive the Anthorne signal will be wrong won't they?

Depends on the setting of the clock, if they're set to GMT/BST then they will follow the UK timezone, if set to another timezone then I believe that the time signals also factor this in and send the correct time offset for each zone within range.

ruwithme · 29-03-2020 10:33pm

recyclebin wrote: »

Is the EU still going ahead with abolishing DST? What's the latest on this?

It will never see the light of day again.covid legacy will be long enduring.

Mantis Toboggan · 29-03-2020 10:40pm

ruwithme wrote: »

It will never see the light of day again.covid legacy will be long enduring.

What does that mean?

Hamsterchops · 29-03-2020 11:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Depends on the setting of the clock, if they're set to GMT/BST then they will follow the UK timezone, if set to another timezone then I believe that the time signals also factor this in and send the correct time offset for each zone within range.

Yeah, it's the mechanisms themselves that are manufactured to a certain spec, (Anthorne in this instance) so all the clocks in Ireland I'm talking about would become obsolete overnight as they would remain aligned to British Time.

Other clock mechanisms manufactured to receive the German signal would be ok, but then we'd have the discrepancy between here & Belfast, Derry, London, Cardiff & Edinburgh & Glasgow!

What a mess.

dxhound2005 · 24-10-2020 10:25am

This will probably not be the last clock change. But I hope we will stick to one clock all year round soon. I don't care if it is what we have since March, or what we are switching to tonight. No amount of manipulation can change the fact that there are less daylight hours during winter, and the current system is a throwback to Germany in World War 1.

If the UK goes their own way, no big deal. Spain and Portugal, Sweden and Finland and lots more can cope with having an hour difference over the border, so we should be able to as well.

Mantis Toboggan · 24-10-2020 10:29am

Yes I'd much rather longer, brighter evenings than brighter mornings. At least after work we can still get out with the kids in brightness. Permanent summer time would be ideal.

Leo hadn't the balls to it let's hope micheal does.

dxhound2005 · 24-10-2020 10:45am

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Yes I'd much rather longer, brighter evenings than brighter mornings. At least after work we can still get out with the kids in brightness. Permanent summer time would be ideal.

Leo hadn't the balls to it let's hope micheal does.

The current arrangements are agreed EU wide, including an opt out allowing Ireland and the UK to change clocks a couple of weeks apart from the other countries, if I recall correctly.

The new arrangement will also be all EU countries, each one free to choose whatever time zone they want, but they have to stick to it all year round.

Eleven Benevolent Elephants · 24-10-2020 11:26am

If the UK opt for permanent wintertime I hope Ireland doesn't follow suit just to keep the whole island in one time zone.

Permanent summer time for me, even if it means a zone change going from Newry to Dundalk.

JustAThought · 24-10-2020 11:26am

wasn’t this started to facilitate farmers and achieve more daYlight in olden tomes
prior to headlights on tractors and indooor electricity in sheds for milking etc.

It will make total havoc out of the international navagation systems and tide tables for sailors and the maritime induatry.

dxhound2005 · 24-10-2020 11:30am

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

If the UK opt for permanent wintertime I hope Ireland doesn't follow suit just to keep the whole island in one time zone.

Permanent summer time for me, even if it means a zone change going from Newry to Dundalk.

The speculation is that the UK will continue to change their clocks, while we would be the same all year round. Could mean being in line with them six months of the year, and being one hour different for six months. Or even one hour for six months and two hours the other six.

Hotblack Desiato · 24-10-2020 11:40am

JustAThought wrote: »

wasn’t this started to facilitate farmers

Farners work to the weather and the sun, it doesn't matter a damn to them what it says on a clock.

JustAThought wrote: »

It will make total havoc out of the international navagation systems and tide tables for sailors and the maritime induatry.

All of that stuff works relative to UTC. Many countries already don't have a clock change, and/or have several time zones within the country, and not always 1 hour differences between the zones either.

completedit · 24-10-2020 11:49am

The only good thing about Ireland are long summer evenings; if they get rid of them it will be so grim. Winter is a right off in most of Europe; it's grey and bleak anyway; You'd hardly notice an extra hour in the mornings or the evenings. Think about it; most people work till 5. You basically have one hour max of extra sunlight; no time to prepare yourself to do anything. Most activities take place later in the evening and it'll be dark anyway. Much better to have that light at the end of the tunnel and the advent of summer with that additional hour stretch in the summer.

astrofool · 24-10-2020 1:19pm

The UK will do the opposite to the EU just to be contrary, hopefully Ireland doesn't follow their lead.

Eleven Benevolent Elephants · 24-10-2020 1:32pm

astrofool wrote: »

The UK will do the opposite to the EU just to be contrary, hopefully Ireland doesn't follow their lead.

If the UK continue to change clocks just to be recalcitrant I will be extremely angry if Ireland follows suit.

Permanent summer time for me.

dxhound2005 · 24-10-2020 1:59pm

There won't be an option for any EU country to keep changing their clocks. Just like the current agreed rule means that they all have to change their clocks.

Mantis Toboggan · 24-10-2020 2:01pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There won't be an option for any EU country to keep changing their clocks. Just like the current agreed rule means that they all have to change their clocks.

Think it's upto each country to decide, when Leo was the leader he said he'd follow the UK with whatever they decided.

dxhound2005 · 24-10-2020 2:21pm

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Think it's upto each country to decide, when Leo was the leader he said he'd follow the UK with whatever they decided.

Whatever Leo said Brexit changes things. We cannot follow the UK if they decide to keep the clock changes. If and when the new EU arrangements come.

EU to recommend abolishing DST

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