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Papal Visit - Poor show by the Defense Forces

2»

Comments

  • #52
    mrsoundie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭mrsoundie


    Irish Kings wrote: »
    Might be best if you like to dish it out but can't take it, can't control your reactions, and then and resort to inferences about live ammunition.

    So far I haven't seen much reputable behavior from members of the DF here, or evidence of their CO's and PA's enforcing any recent discipline in their Units.

    Certainly no reason for taxpayers to fork out even more of there hard earned taxes for this kind of continued deterioration in DF standards of behavior.

    You were told already that you don't know what you are talking about.

    Get that chip off your shoulder and make a decent contribution. All you have done so far is recycle old jokes.


  • #53
    padd b1975
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,782 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Victor wrote: »
    Why didn't the just move somewhere else?

    Paid from the neck down like all squaddies.


  • #54
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,687 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Irish Kings wrote: »
    Might be best if you like to dish it out but can't take it, can't control your reactions, and then and resort to inferences about live ammunition.

    So far I haven't seen much reputable behavior from members of the DF here, or evidence of their CO's and PA's enforcing any recent discipline in their Units.

    Certainly no reason for taxpayers to fork out even more of there hard earned taxes for this kind of continued deterioration in DF standards of behavior.

    I have been measured with my responses.

    You however, cannot accurately comprehend them. That is a failing on your part.

    Your word choice is abysmal. You say 'inference about live ammunition'. That makes no sense, do you know what the word 'inference' means?

    You have been told once, now you will be told again because you dont understand what a metaphor is.

    Your illinformed points, arguments and opinions are baseless....therefore the implied metaphor is your brain (or weapon) is using blank ammunition. You were advised to use 'Live ammunition' next time, as in, get your brain to compose a post containing relevent and informed points and opinions.

    Unfortunately for you and indeed all of us here, not only are you not clever enough to debate on the subject, you are deficient the knowledge, context or ability to engage with anyone with the knowledge.

    Keep up the top notch posts with references to historic deafness claims and lying on beds.

    Thats a good lad welcome to my ignore list.


  • #55
    RobbieMD
    Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭RobbieMD


    Chewbacca wrote: »
    This is not about pay parity between services. You do not seem to have a grasp of the situation.

    This is about payment for out of hours service.

    In this scenario, the Defence Forces conducted tasks that An Garda Siochana could/would not do.

    An Garda Siochana were rotated every couple of hours. They got to wind down in the local pubs and hotels which were booked out exclusively for them. Hot, fresh carvery food, tea, water and shelter. They recieved up to €40 per hour for this.

    The Defence Forces were sent into the Phoenix Park on Saturday to perfrom armed patrols and were told, "See ye on Sunday evening lads, hope ye have yer wet gear".

    "Rest areas" were provided. This was a 10 man tent which 40 lads were meant to be able to squeze into...no chance. Lads had to bivi up along the railings out in the rain. Unfortunately in locations which had used needles and bags of faeces strewn around. The food was pre packed sandwiches and substandard tin foil meals.

    The Defence Forces are no strangers to hardship, this was not particularly hard by any means. They dont care about patrolling or sleeping in the rain with limited shelter or insufficient food.

    They care about being paid on par with the lads who requested their presence at the event in the first place...i.e AGS. Soldiers are cheaper than AGS members despite being better trained with a higher skillset and vast armed operational experience gleaned from operating in hostile environments.

    Monetarily, you get 30+ soldiers for the price of 1 AGS member. If you don't see a problem with that then Im not going to try to convince you.

    I know a few AGS members who were working at the Papal visit. They will be close to clearing €1k for working less time sitting down dry in a car while the soldier wont even clear €100.

    Out of interest, how much does your job pay you for overtime, is it less than €2 per hour?

    I'd have an issue with some of what you've raised here. Members of AGS were not rotated every couple of hours, into hotels and pubs for hot carvery, or sitting dry in cars all day.

    Like the DF personnel there, members were out from 5am, got soaked standing at the gates and walking their beats in the park and surrounds. They were not stood down til 8pm or later.

    As broadcast by RTE, they were given brown paper bag lunches with sandwiches, apples, a bottle of water and for some reason wine gums. 1000s of bags of which were dumped. They too had no shelter except for their break in the tents.

    I sincerely doubt anyone got €1000 for the day. Even at your rates of €40/hr it's still 25hrs of work.
    and you can deduct slightly more than half of that in taxes and pension levies etc. It's closer to €20/hr

    You also said "Soldiers are cheaper than AGS members despite being better trained with a higher skillset and vast armed operational experience gleaned from operating in hostile environments"

    I absolutely agree that DF personnel were/are treated poorly and remunerated poorly. But it's not fair to either PDF or AGS to compare their roles or denigrate what the other offers. Both roles are more complicated than simply appears on the surface or what the public see. They complement each other and ultimately are at the whim of government in events such as the popes visit. Is it not true that AGS train the DF in certain areas?

    AGS rep bodies have consistently fought for better pay and conditions for their members. The DF deserves the same and their rep bodies should be fighting for it.

    I know plenty of members of AGS who wouldn't have worked the popes visit only rest days were cancelled, annual leave refused and members forced to work ridiculous hours. I assume that the DF members working there were under similar instruction.


  • #56
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,687 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    Paid from the neck down like all squaddies.

    British troops are known as Squaddies.

    They actually tidied the area so civilians would not come across the drug paraphanalia.

    In fact, on their down time they used what was above their neck to look for more paraphanalia and arranged for it to be disposed of.

    Soldiers are trained to follow orders, they are also trained to use their own initiative, which they do.


  • #57
    mrsoundie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭mrsoundie


    It's refreshing to see those in the know, make coherent arguments and rebuttals.

    Whereas those with limited knowledge make outlandish claims and then scurry away when confronted. Stop listening to the rumours and contact those who are serving or who have served, they will put you straight.


  • #58
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,687 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    RobbieMD wrote: »
    I'd have an issue with some of what you've raised here. Members of AGS were not rotated every couple of hours, into hotels and pubs for hot carvery, or sitting dry in cars all day.

    No AGS members were stationed or fed from Commiskys or the Hole in the Wall? They were both closed to civilians for the duration.

    According to an AGS member I know, they were. Is that false? Can you check with the guys you know and get back to me.
    RobbieMD wrote: »
    Like the DF personnel there, members were out from 5am, got soaked standing at the gates and walking their beats in the park and surrounds. They were not stood down til 8pm or later.

    Thats true and I agree and did not think otherwise....I saw them there.
    RobbieMD wrote: »
    As broadcast by RTE, they were given brown paper bag lunches with sandwiches, apples, a bottle of water and for some reason wine gums. 1000s of bags of which were dumped. They too had no shelter except for their break in the tents.

    Ridiculous situation, I agree....wine gums were for morale.
    RobbieMD wrote: »
    I sincerely doubt anyone got €1000 for the day. Even at your rates of €40/hr it's still 25hrs of work.
    and you can deduct slightly more than half of that in taxes and pension levies etc. It's closer to €20/hr

    I was informed, again by a different AGS member...well boasted to in fact, that for the weekend in OT, it was worth almost €1k to him.

    Have I been misinformed? Were they pulling my leg? If so, let me know what it was worth...not a figure based on your doubt. A figure from an AGS member. Thats all I have been going on.
    RobbieMD wrote: »
    You also said "Soldiers are cheaper than AGS members despite being better trained with a higher skillset and vast armed operational experience gleaned from operating in hostile environments".

    I absolutely agree that DF personnel were/are treated poorly and remunerated poorly. But it's not fair to either PDF or AGS to compare their roles or denigrate what the other offers. Both roles are more complicated than simply appears on the surface or what the public see. They complement each other and ultimately are at the whim of government in events such as the popes visit. Is it not true that AGS train the DF in certain areas?

    I completely agree. My point was that the Government see soldiers as a lesser asset. It wasnt intended to be a dig at AGS, it was to highlight the monetary value which the Government has assisgned to both services.

    The issue is with the Government but to highlight that, a comparison needs to be made.
    RobbieMD wrote: »
    AGS rep bodies have consistently fought for better pay and conditions for their members. The DF deserves the same and their rep bodies should be fighting for it.

    They have been but dont really have a voice.
    RobbieMD wrote: »
    I know plenty of members of AGS who wouldn't have worked the popes visit only rest days were cancelled, annual leave refused and members forced to work ridiculous hours. I assume that the DF members working there were under similar instruction.

    Same same.


  • #59
    RobbieMD
    Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭RobbieMD


    I'm sure some members up around there were fed at the pub. I know I wasn't. I wasn't fed in a tent with loads of others. I'm sure the local members were cuter about where they were posted and used it to their advantage.

    As regards pay, I'm at the top of my scale. Ordinary OT is about €37/hr. Sunday is about €50/hr.

    Between the two days I got my 15hrs OT.

    Say approx €650, or just under half of that after deductions.

    Junior members would be on less pay so their overtime rates would be less accordingly. Say €24-€32/hr depending on ordinary v Sunday overtime.

    I was rostered to work both days anyways, so the first 10hrs were just ordinary pay before the overtime kicked in.


  • #60
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Irish Kings wrote: »
    I'm another taxpayer that pays your wages, that already pays too much for you lie around around complaining all day.
    Irish Kings wrote: »
    And another overpaid bed scratcher leaps to the rescue, no cats stuck up a tree or power washing to do this morning ?

    [mod]One-line posts consisting of nothing but insult are not acceptable behaviour. Week ban.[/mod]
    They were both closed to civilians for the duration.

    And here I was hoping that the military forum would be the last bastion of the legal definition of 'civilian' from the encroachment which has been going on for several years, starting in the US.

    Gardai are civilians. You would want to say "Private citizens"


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  • #61
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,687 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    RobbieMD wrote: »
    I'm sure some members up around there were fed at the pub. I know I wasn't. I wasn't fed in a tent with loads of others. I'm sure the local members were cuter about where they were posted and used it to their advantage.

    As regards pay, I'm at the top of my scale. Ordinary OT is about €37/hr. Sunday is about €50/hr.

    Between the two days I got my 15hrs OT.

    Say approx €650, or just under half of that after deductions.

    Junior members would be on less pay so their overtime rates would be less accordingly. Say €24-€32/hr depending on ordinary v Sunday overtime.

    I was rostered to work both days anyways, so the first 10hrs were just ordinary pay before the overtime kicked in.

    My guy must have been pulling my leg on the €1k so. Thanks for the clarification.


  • #62
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,687 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    [mod]One-line posts consisting of nothing but insult are not acceptable behaviour. Week ban.[/mod]



    And here I was hoping that the military forum would be the last bastion of the legal definition of 'civilian' from the encroachment which has been going on for several years, starting in the US.

    Gardai are civilians. You would want to say "Private citizens"

    Maybe I should have said "locals" but I appreciate the correction.


  • #63
    smelly sock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭smelly sock


    Chewbacca wrote: »
    They always have and always will perform all tasks assigned, at home or overseas.

    They have long standing grievences which have been continuously ignored by the government and military leadership.

    This is a product of frustration and their only outlet to be heard...unlike other jobs, careers, state services.

    It's not ideal to do a similar but more robust task and get paid less than €2 per hour while another guy doing less work, in better conditions gets paid 20 times that.

    Looking in from the outside, it looks like whinging but thats all you see...from the outside.

    Technically, OPSEC wasnt breached but PERSEC was and they still performed their task as assigned....in the rain...for low pay...at a religious festival...which they shouldnt have been assigned.

    Anyway, these lads train to defend the State and have been doing it since 1922. They are entrusted as you said to defend its citizens...their most important task.

    It's so important that they are rewarded as the lowest paid body in the public sector.

    They signed up to fight for you under any circumstances and any time. They travel overseas and put themselves in a position to fight for someone else if needed.

    Let them fight for themselves here now, because nobody else will.

    You are trying to paint a rainbow using only black and white colours. How about supporting them instead of bashing them?

    Nobody asked them to join the army.


  • #64
    RobbieMD
    Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭RobbieMD


    Chewbacca wrote: »
    My guy must have been pulling my leg on the €1k so. Thanks for the clarification.

    He'd wanna be doing some amount of OT to get that. Again it could be a before tax figure of 20+ hours of all Sunday OT to get that, but like when the queen was over and Obama, the press had mad figures. I worked it too and made nowhere near what was going around the papers.


  • #65
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    smelly sock wrote: »
    Nobody asked them to join the army.

    Same could be said for the many private sector workers who sign up to their companies and then suddenly don't like the conditions they signed up to. The difference is that they are legally entitled to join a union and protest/strike. The Defence Forces aren't.
    Like all public / civil servants, their pay and conditions were cut drastically when their employers failed to manage the budget.


  • #66
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,687 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    smelly sock wrote: »
    Nobody asked them to join the army.

    Nobody asked for your opinion...but here it is.

    The worst and laziest type of opinion might I add.


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  • #67
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,687 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    RobbieMD wrote: »
    He'd wanna be doing some amount of OT to get that. Again it could be a before tax figure of 20+ hours of all Sunday OT to get that, but like when the queen was over and Obama, the press had mad figures. I worked it too and made nowhere near what was going around the papers.

    He might have been doing OT in Friday too?


  • #68
    wpd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 492 ✭✭wpd


    first i have to say i found the soldiers in the phonix park very helpful and professional
    I didnt really understand why they were there as i only saw them directing people as they were leaving

    surely the army has a setup to feed personnel with field kitchens so why were these not used?

    I spoke to 2 soldiers on the day and they said they hadnt slept out overnight


  • #69
    RobbieMD
    Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭RobbieMD


    Chewbacca wrote: »
    He might have been doing OT in Friday too?

    Possibly. Most just worked the Saturday and Sunday on OT. I'm sure there was some who were part of the planning and got more overtime than the average member.


  • #70
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,687 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    wpd wrote: »
    first i have to say i found the soldiers in the phonix park very helpful and professional
    I didnt really understand why they were there as i only saw them directing people as they were leaving

    surely the army has a setup to feed personnel with field kitchens so why were these not used?

    I spoke to 2 soldiers on the day and they said they hadnt slept out overnight

    Different troops were doing different tasks. The ones sleeping out were armed security, you most likely wouldnt have seen them. The "guides" would have had an easier time of it.


  • #71
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,687 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    RobbieMD wrote: »
    Possibly. Most just worked the Saturday and Sunday on OT. I'm sure there was some who were part of the planning and got more overtime than the average member.

    Thanks for replying to my posts and providing clarity from the AGS side of the house.

    It was very welcome and informative.

    I'm sure you will be stung again with the Donald visit!


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  • #72
    RobbieMD
    Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭RobbieMD


    Chewbacca wrote: »
    Thanks for replying to my posts and providing clarity from the AGS side of the house.

    It was very welcome and informative.

    I'm sure you will be stung again with the Donald visit!

    Hopefully he just goes to Doonbeg and stays away from Dublin !


  • #73
    mikeym
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,985 ✭✭✭mikeym


    Theres a good few lads that have left the DF for The Guards.


    It used to be a great job and when it comes to pay restoration the lads get the scraps.


  • #74
    Kat1170
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,638 ✭✭✭Kat1170


    Chewbacca wrote:
    I'm sure you will be stung again with the Donald visit!


    Given they had a couple of years to plan the Pope's visit and how the lads ended up being treated, I can just imagine the hames the top brass will make of this with only a couple of months notice.


  • #75
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Irish Kings wrote: »
    And another overpaid bed scratcher
    I've never heard of a hypodermic needle being paid. :pac:


  • #76
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    osheen wrote: »
    What I can't understand is why the lads weren't rotated in and out of McKee .
    No shortage of facilities there and only a 10 minute walk from the stage . It just baffles me the disregard that was shown to the lads forcing them to camp out with a mostly empty barracks so close .

    There was no money in the budget for the use of Mckee. Civilian contractors would have been required.


  • #77
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    There was no money in the budget for the use of Mckee. Civilian contractors would have been required.

    What does that mean?.


  • #78
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,687 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Cristiano Small Ping-pong wrote: »
    What does that mean?.

    Theres a lot of "wrong" in just those 2 sentences!


  • #79
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Chewbacca wrote: »
    Theres a lot of "wrong" in just those 2 sentences!

    He has me completely baffled alright.

    No money in what budget, and civilian contractors for what in McKee?


  • #80
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Cristiano Small Ping-pong wrote: »
    He has me completely baffled alright.

    No money in what budget, and civilian contractors for what in McKee?

    Civilian caterers and supplies.


  • #81
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,687 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Civilian caterers and supplies.

    Civilian caterers?

    The Defence Forces have hundreds of cooks, McKee has a large cookhouse with a number of army cooks working there everyday, breakfast, lunch and dinner.

    You were misinformed, consider yourself informed.


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  • #82
    mrsoundie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭mrsoundie


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Civilian caterers and supplies.

    Civilian caterers when the School of Buns is there already. No.


  • #83
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Civilian caterers and supplies.
    Chewbacca wrote: »
    Civilian caterers?

    The Defence Forces have hundreds of cooks, McKee has a large cookhouse with a number of army cooks working there everyday, breakfast, lunch and dinner.

    You were misinformed, consider yourself informed.

    You're talking through your hole This ^^^


  • #84
    leinsterjack
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭leinsterjack


    BowSideChamp wrote: »
    The Defense Forces were assigned the task of protecting the 100k's visiting the Phoenix Park during the Papal visit. It is their most important fuction- to protect the state and the citizens. They have not only bitched and moaned about it on social media but probably breached opsec by posting pictures online. Anyone else disappointed at their conduct?

    I know that I am incredibly late and most of my argument has already been mentioned but....

    2 euros an hour..... military neutrality does not mean we treat the small military we have like s***.

    I have huge sympathy for the lack of respect shown to the people who would willingly sacrifice thier own life for the Irish nation.


  • #85
    DanMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭DanMurphy


    We Irish just love our soldiers.
    NOT


  • #86
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Just saw your post fair play lad. I was in the service myself. Retained. Cheap way for the council to have 24hour cover. Absolute p*ss take. Often on call at 3 In the morning and in to my regular job at 8. Hard life.

    Off topic, but was it worth it in your opinion? Might be something I'm interested in in the future.


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