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Papal Visit - Poor show by the Defense Forces

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  • 28-08-2018 9:40pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 272 ✭✭


    The Defense Forces were assigned the task of protecting the 100k's visiting the Phoenix Park during the Papal visit. It is their most important fuction- to protect the state and the citizens. They have not only bitched and moaned about it on social media but probably breached opsec by posting pictures online. Anyone else disappointed at their conduct?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭scuby


    To be fair, not being paid similar to guards and sleeping rough under a tarp in the park, surrounded by needles... would you happily do it


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,685 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    They always have and always will perform all tasks assigned, at home or overseas.

    They have long standing grievences which have been continuously ignored by the government and military leadership.

    This is a product of frustration and their only outlet to be heard...unlike other jobs, careers, state services.

    It's not ideal to do a similar but more robust task and get paid less than €2 per hour while another guy doing less work, in better conditions gets paid 20 times that.

    Looking in from the outside, it looks like whinging but thats all you see...from the outside.

    Technically, OPSEC wasnt breached but PERSEC was and they still performed their task as assigned....in the rain...for low pay...at a religious festival...which they shouldnt have been assigned.

    Anyway, these lads train to defend the State and have been doing it since 1922. They are entrusted as you said to defend its citizens...their most important task.

    It's so important that they are rewarded as the lowest paid body in the public sector.

    They signed up to fight for you under any circumstances and any time. They travel overseas and put themselves in a position to fight for someone else if needed.

    Let them fight for themselves here now, because nobody else will.

    You are trying to paint a rainbow using only black and white colours. How about supporting them instead of bashing them?


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    They were there to act as yellow pack stewards* not to protect the state. hard to do while unarmed. Told to live in filthy conditions surrounded by discarded needles. despite this they still did the job assigned to them and did it with good humour by all accounts. Those that complained publicly were right to do so.



    *this is not an insult to the members of the PDF. the way they were treated was.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,292 ✭✭✭Adamocovic


    From people I know in the Defense Forces they were on ridiculously low pay for the shifts while Gardaí I think received over-time.

    I dont' have any annoyance towards them. I don't want to say specifics incase I am remembering the exacts wrong but the hourly pay was insultingly low for the hours required.

    Also in some areas like Knock they were scheduling shifts there but had received complaints from locals about feeling uncomfortable about military presence and the operation was scraped a couple of hours in.

    I would definitely understand some of the Defense Force not being happy and voicing that opinion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    The Defense Forces were assigned the task of protecting the 100k's visiting the Phoenix Park during the Papal visit. It is their most important fuction- to protect the state and the citizens. They have not only bitched and moaned about it on social media but probably breached opsec by posting pictures online. Anyone else disappointed at their conduct?


    Here you are bitching and moaning about the DF. The irony.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Faith+1


    Adamocovic wrote: »
    Also in some areas like Knock they were scheduling shifts there but had received complaints from locals about feeling uncomfortable about military presence and the operation was scraped a couple of hours in.

    The same useless b*stards who are delighted to see the Army assisting them during the floods, snow, storms etc....
    The utter contempt people have for the military in this Country is a disgrace.

    Maybe if they had to do their 16 weeks basic they'd feel a bit different about the Army.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭gunnerfitzy


    Chewbacca wrote: »
    They always have and always will perform all tasks assigned, at home or overseas.

    They have long standing grievences which have been continuously ignored by the government and military leadership.

    This is a product of frustration and their only outlet to be heard...unlike other jobs, careers, state services.

    It's not ideal to do a similar but more robust task and get paid less than €2 per hour while another guy doing less work, in better conditions gets paid 20 times that.

    Looking in from the outside, it looks like whinging but thats all you see...from the outside.

    Technically, OPSEC wasnt breached but PERSEC was and they still performed their task as assigned....in the rain...for low pay...at a religious festival...which they shouldnt have been assigned.

    Anyway, these lads train to defend the State and have been doing it since 1922. They are entrusted as you said to defend its citizens...their most important task.

    It's so important that they are rewarded as the lowest paid body in the public sector.

    They signed up to fight for you under any circumstances and any time. They travel overseas and put themselves in a position to fight for someone else if needed.

    Let them fight for themselves here now, because nobody else will.

    You are trying to paint a rainbow using only black and white colours. How about supporting them instead of bashing them?

    Excellently articulated post about where the DF is currently from a serving soldier's perspective.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,871 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Faith+1 wrote: »
    The same useless b*stards who are delighted to see the Army assisting them during the floods, snow, storms etc....
    The utter contempt people have for the military in this Country is a disgrace.

    Maybe if they had to do their 16 weeks basic they'd feel a bit different about the Army.

    Couldnt agree more. It should be mandatory for all people between 18 and 25 or so. It would have value in so many ways.

    Oh, and the way the DF lads were treated in the Phoenix Park at the weekend was a diagrace. Whatever about the money, a decent campground and billets wouldnt have hurt anyone, and a rotation into McKee for grub and sanitation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    scuby wrote: »
    To be fair, not being paid similar to guards and sleeping rough under a tarp in the park, surrounded by needles... would you happily do it

    Why should different job roles be paid the same by default? Join the guards if you want their pay.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,929 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    The residents of knock are obviously knobheads that don't deserve protection (if they turned their noses up as detailed in this thread)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,685 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    Why should different job roles be paid the same by default? Join the guards if you want their pay.

    This is not about pay parity between services. You do not seem to have a grasp of the situation.

    This is about payment for out of hours service.

    In this scenario, the Defence Forces conducted tasks that An Garda Siochana could/would not do.

    An Garda Siochana were rotated every couple of hours. They got to wind down in the local pubs and hotels which were booked out exclusively for them. Hot, fresh carvery food, tea, water and shelter. They recieved up to €40 per hour for this.

    The Defence Forces were sent into the Phoenix Park on Saturday to perfrom armed patrols and were told, "See ye on Sunday evening lads, hope ye have yer wet gear".

    "Rest areas" were provided. This was a 10 man tent which 40 lads were meant to be able to squeze into...no chance. Lads had to bivi up along the railings out in the rain. Unfortunately in locations which had used needles and bags of faeces strewn around. The food was pre packed sandwiches and substandard tin foil meals.

    The Defence Forces are no strangers to hardship, this was not particularly hard by any means. They dont care about patrolling or sleeping in the rain with limited shelter or insufficient food.

    They care about being paid on par with the lads who requested their presence at the event in the first place...i.e AGS. Soldiers are cheaper than AGS members despite being better trained with a higher skillset and vast armed operational experience gleaned from operating in hostile environments.

    Monetarily, you get 30+ soldiers for the price of 1 AGS member. If you don't see a problem with that then Im not going to try to convince you.

    I know a few AGS members who were working at the Papal visit. They will be close to clearing €1k for working less time sitting down dry in a car while the soldier wont even clear €100.

    Out of interest, how much does your job pay you for overtime, is it less than €2 per hour?


  • Registered Users Posts: 644 ✭✭✭Dank Janniels


    Genuine question, why wasnt there a marquee or tent structure put up for them, like a temperary basecamp as sum1 alredy mentioned above? Sleeping out rough and then expected to put in a shift? Where was the nearest barricks?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭Autochange


    Faith+1 wrote: »
    The same useless b*stards who are delighted to see the Army assisting them during the floods, snow, storms etc....
    The utter contempt people have for the military in this Country is a disgrace.

    Maybe if they had to do their 16 weeks basic they'd feel a bit different about the Army.

    Paid 16 weeks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Chewbacca wrote: »
    This is not about pay parity between services. You do not seem to have a grasp of the situation.

    This is about payment for out of hours service.

    In this scenario, the Defence Forces conducted tasks that An Garda Siochana could/would not do.

    An Garda Siochana were rotated every couple of hours. They got to wind down in the local pubs and hotels which were booked out exclusively for them. Hot, fresh carvery food, tea, water and shelter. They recieved up to €40 per hour for this.

    The Defence Forces were sent into the Phoenix Park on Saturday to perfrom armed patrols and were told, "See ye on Sunday evening lads, hope ye have yer wet gear".

    "Rest areas" were provided. This was a 10 man tent which 40 lads were meant to be able to squeze into...no chance. Lads had to bivi up along the railings out in the rain. Unfortunately in locations which had used needles and bags of faeces strewn around. The food was pre packed sandwiches and substandard tin foil meals.

    The Defence Forces are no strangers to hardship, this was not particularly hard by any means. They dont care about patrolling or sleeping in the rain with limited shelter or insufficient food.

    They care about being paid on par with the lads who requested their presence at the event in the first place...i.e AGS. Soldiers are cheaper than AGS members despite being better trained with a higher skillset and vast armed operational experience gleaned from operating in hostile environments.

    Monetarily, you get 30+ soldiers for the price of 1 AGS member. If you don't see a problem with that then Im not going to try to convince you.

    I know a few AGS members who were working at the Papal visit. They will be close to clearing €1k for working less time sitting down dry in a car while the soldier wont even clear €100.

    Out of interest, how much does your job pay you for overtime, is it less than €2 per hour?

    I'm on salary so I don't get paid for extra hours....

    If you want to go down the lines of my job, I used to work in a job where I earned 10 quid an hour while a person in another company earned about 15 euro an hour for the same work.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Elemonator


    Troll post. Next.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    Don't bother with lads like that.

    They're of the mindset that anyone who earns less is a useless b*stard and anyone who earns more is an overpaid c#nt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭fiload


    In fairness, if you are in the army and not overseas you basically have nothing to do everyday. The majority of the time is spent sweeping the yard, gym or computer games.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,244 ✭✭✭swarlb


    fiload wrote: »
    In fairness, if you are in the army and not overseas you basically have nothing to do everyday. The majority of the time is spent sweeping the yard, gym or computer games.

    Same could be said of firefighters (not allowed call them firemen anymore).. maybe we should shut down all the barracks and fire stations, and just hand out mobile phones (paid by themselves of course). Just give them a call whenever a war breaks out, a forest or hotel goes up in flames or the next time El Papa pays a call !


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭FirefighterT7


    I agree Defence Forces members do a excellent job and deserve far more support. I agree with Swarlb, as a member of Fire Service people seem to think we have a great time of it, try to forget what we see at 3am, the same goes for the Defence forces, they deserve so much more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,312 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    scuby wrote: »
    surrounded by needles
    Why didn't the just move somewhere else?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    I agree Defence Forces members do a excellent job and deserve far more support. I agree with Swarlb, as a member of Fire Service people seem to think we have a great time of it, try to forgetb what we see at 3am, the same goes for the Defence forces, they deserve so much more.

    what we see at 3am

    Why do you be lining up the crosshairs on some bloke while thinking "wonder if he has kids......they'll be off to an orphanage in 3....2....1 " ?



    Tell us again how much you get paid ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,292 ✭✭✭Adamocovic


    Everyone's entitled to their opinion but some of the posts regarding the Defence Force here seem so odd in my eyes.

    I can't see how anyone can hear the huge divide in pay for the event and think it was acceptable. Both the Gardaí and Defence Force are governmental services.

    The Gardaí were given up to €30 an hour for overtime during the event.
    The Defence Forces were given up to €24 a day for overtime, for performing a similar role. Ones who worked 24-hour shifts got up to €48 euro a day.

    It's an outrageous divide between the two. It's also been reported that the facilities provided for people performing 24-hour shifts were very poor.

    It's odd to me that people are taking the side of the Government on this one regarding the facilities and pay when our society seems to mostly side against the Government these days.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Faith+1


    Adamocovic wrote: »

    The Gardaere given up to €30 an hour for overtime during the event.
    The Defence Forces were given up to €24 a day for overtime, for performing a similar role. Ones who worked 24-hour shifts got up to €48 euro a day.

    And they wonder why they can't fill their recruitment quotas. It's not that there's a lack of suitable candidates, it's the simple fact that the pay is fcuking atrocious.

    I understand people have aspirations of serving their Country but that won't pay the bills, especially when you can earn more working in Dominos pizza. Plus the public probably have more respect for a pizza maker than their soldiers :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,244 ✭✭✭swarlb


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Why do you be lining up the crosshairs on some bloke while thinking "wonder if he has kids......they'll be off to an orphanage in 3....2....1 " ?



    Tell us again how much you get paid ?

    They get paid basically for this...
    Being on call for every minute that they report for work, unlike most people who have set times for breaks, lunch etc.
    This work usually includes...
    Dealing with drunks, drug addicts and whatever else is to be found in need of 'emergency care' as in, transport to whatever hospital may be on call.
    Scraping the remains of humans unlucky to be found dead at the scene of a road traffic accident, not an easy job at the best of times.
    Also having to deal with human remains found either rotting or burnt, people who either died of natural causes and were not found for days or weeks, or victims of house fires, men, women, children, babies...A man called Birmingham springs to mind.
    Being called out to a 999 emergency call, only to find the person who called has a toothache.. and yes, they are required to attend, and it does happen.
    The fire service (in Dublin at least) also operates the ambulance service.
    Many firefighters suffer as a result of what they have seen and had to endure down through the years, and more than a few have turned to drink. Relationships and family life have also suffered as a result.
    Yes, they get paid well, and they deserve every penny and more.
    As for joining the defence forces, the one thing that can be guaranteed about this job, is that in the event of conflict, they usually get shot at.
    Unusually other occupations, people who work in IT, or Deli shops tend not to get to see half of what a firefighter sees on a regular basis, yet one thing is certain, if they are involved in a car crash, an assault by a thug, or need a cat rescued from a tree, it'll be a firefighter who turns up to help.
    Maybe they should ask what the pay is ?

    By the way.. I'm not a firefighter...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    I'm on salary so I don't get paid for extra hours....

    According to THIS THREAD you don't do over time. You work ten minutes from home, for 8.5 hours per day. You're off every weekend, but you're "too bollixed" to do anything with it (free weekends) and you've twenty annual leave days per year.

    You're able to save €15k per annum and have €60k savings. For a soldier to make that kind of wedge they'd have to travel oversea's to someone else's misery.. Kiddo, at 26 you're not doing too bad for yourself

    So why not answer the question put to you, would you work for €2 per hour OT?. If you don't want to answer that, answer this then. When everyone else in society wants nothing else but equality, respect and fairness do you think a soldier, airman or sailor should settle for anything less?.


  • Registered Users Posts: 318 ✭✭osheen


    What I can't understand is why the lads weren't rotated in and out of McKee .
    No shortage of facilities there and only a 10 minute walk from the stage . It just baffles me the disregard that was shown to the lads forcing them to camp out with a mostly empty barracks so close .


  • Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    Chewbacca wrote: »
    Technically, OPSEC wasnt breached but PERSEC was and they still performed their task as assigned....in the rain...for low pay...at a religious festival...which they shouldnt have been assigned.

    Since when did the DF start getting political ? It was a large public event whether you like it or not, and finally something for them to assist with as an aid to the civil power, or should they be paid to be left in the guardhouse all day playing cards and sitting on their arses whining and talking shyte as usual ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭FirefighterT7


    =FirefighterT7;107938100]

    what we see at 3am

    Why do you be lining up the crosshairs on some bloke while thinking "wonder if he has kids......they'll be off to an orphanage in 3....2....1 " ?


    Tell us again how much you get paid ?
    If you must Know I earned a hardly huge €22000 after tax last year, to be on call 24/7 365, all the while holding down a second job to pay my bills and feed my family. What about you? Ever put in a 48 hour shift? I hope you or yours never need us, but if you should we don’t discriminate because of ignorance, abuse or any of the rest of it, so rest assured we will drop everything and come.


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭FirefighterT7


    swarlb wrote: »
    gctest50 wrote: »
    Why do you be lining up the crosshairs on some bloke while thinking "wonder if he has kids......they'll be off to an orphanage in 3....2....1 " ?



    Tell us again how much you get paid ?

    They get paid basically for this...
    Being on call for every minute that they report for work, unlike most people who have set times for breaks, lunch etc.
    This work usually includes...
    Dealing with drunks, drug addicts and whatever else is to be found in need of 'emergency care' as in, transport to whatever hospital may be on call.
    Scraping the remains of humans unlucky to be found dead at the scene of a road traffic accident, not an easy job at the best of times.
    Also having to deal with human remains found either rotting or burnt, people who either died of natural causes and were not found for days or weeks, or victims of house fires, men, women, children, babies...A man called Birmingham springs to mind.
    Being called out to a 999 emergency call, only to find the person who called has a toothache.. and yes, they are required to attend, and it does happen.
    The fire service (in Dublin at least) also operates the ambulance service.
    Many firefighters suffer as a result of what they have seen and had to endure down through the years, and more than a few have turned to drink. Relationships and family life have also suffered as a result.
    Yes, they get paid well, and they deserve every penny and more.
    As for joining the defence forces, the one thing that can be guaranteed about this job, is that in the event of conflict, they usually get shot at.
    Unusually other occupations, people who work in IT, or Deli shops tend not to get to see half of what a firefighter sees on a regular basis, yet one thing is certain, if they are involved in a car crash, an assault by a thug, or need a cat rescued from a tree, it'll be a firefighter who turns up to help.
    Maybe they should ask what the pay is ?

    By the way.. I'm not a firefighter...

    Thank you Swarlb,
    I couldn’t have summed it up better apart from the highly paid part, most of Irish fire service is retained and a lot struggle to make ends meat, hence why I can relate to Defence Forces and feel so sorry for them and how they are treated. Thank you for the support and be safe!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    According to THIS THREAD you don't do over time. You work ten minutes from home, for 8.5 hours per day. You're off every weekend, but you're "too bollixed" to do anything with it (free weekends) and you've twenty annual leave days per year.

    You're able to save €15k per annum and have €60k savings. For a soldier to make that kind of wedge they'd have to travel oversea's to someone else's misery.. Kiddo, at 26 you're not doing too bad for yourself

    So why not answer the question put to you, would you work for €2 per hour OT?. If you don't want to answer that, answer this then. When everyone else in society wants nothing else but equality, respect and fairness do you think a soldier, airman or sailor should settle for anything less?.

    Not sure what my spending habits or commute have to do with my job. Those are my choices.

    I don't do overtime but I also am not out on the button every day. I was in work until 11pm multiple days this year. I get 0 extra for this.

    In 22 years I'll be forced to work where a defence force member can retire with a pension.


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