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Papal Visit - Poor show by the Defense Forces

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    According to


    Hope that lad found his way to the "burns unit". Well done.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Thank you Swarlb, I couldn’t have summed it up better apart from the highly paid part, most of Irish fire service is retained and a lot struggle to make ends meat, hence why I can relate to Defence Forces and feel so sorry for them and how they are treated. Thank you for the support and be safe!


    Just saw your post fair play lad. I was in the service myself. Retained. Cheap way for the council to have 24hour cover. Absolute p*ss take. Often on call at 3 In the morning and in to my regular job at 8. Hard life.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Pussyhands wrote:
    In 22 years I'll be forced to work where a defence force member can retire with a pension.


    Wrong, do some research.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    Not sure what my spending habits or commute have to do with my job. Those are my choices.

    I don't do overtime but I also am not out on the button every day. I was in work until 11pm multiple days this year. I get 0 extra for this.

    In 22 years I'll be forced to work where a defence force member can retire with a pension.

    When you have to spend your off time cutting the noose of some poor f+cker who decided to end his life, you might not be so quick to complain about staying in a bit late.

    The ignorance of some people is unbelievable


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    Not sure what my spending habits or commute have to do with my job. Those are my choices.

    I don't do overtime but I also am not out on the button every day. I was in work until 11pm multiple days this year. I get 0 extra for this.

    In 22 years I'll be forced to work where a defence force member can retire with a pension.

    1. I'm pointing out that you know little about the DF and have absolutely nothing to compare your living & working (plus pay) conditions to a soldiers.

    I'm sure if you had worked until 11pm on multiple days you'd have mentioned it in the other thread, you whinged just about everything else.

    Some soldiers can retire at 21 years pension, a tiny number can. But its not a pension you can retire from work on and in their last few years of service a soldier starts to prepare themselves for civilian employment. Where as you're moaning in the other thread that your life is so hard that you'd like to retire at 40. Nothing wrong with that, we'd all love to do that but most of us live in the real world.

    I'm not going to engage with you further. Since you've failed to answer the questions put to you I'm going to assume that 1, you wouldn't work for less than €2 an hour OT. You like your 8.5 hours work a day and your weekends free, so would I.

    2. That you think the DF's pay and conditions are fair.. Well I don't, and fair play to soldiers, sailors and airmen for finally fighting back and speaking up for themselves.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,543 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Adamocovic wrote: »

    Also in some areas like Knock they were scheduling shifts there but had received complaints from locals about feeling uncomfortable about military presence and the operation was scraped a couple of hours in.
    Are you seriously suggesting that a military operation was scrapped became of a few complaints?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,685 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Since when did the DF start getting political ? It was a large public event whether you like it or not, and finally something for them to assist with as an aid to the civil power, or should they be paid to be left in the guardhouse all day playing cards and sitting on their arses whining and talking shyte as usual ?

    I hope you wiped the shyte from the side of your mouth after that drivel.

    What do you mean by "finally something for them to assist with as an aid to the civil power"? They provide ATCP multiple times a year.

    The only reason large numbers of the DF were tasked is because they are cheaper labour than AGS members.

    Oh and nobody plays cards on duty anymore, that died out in the early 2000's, plus it was a weekend....3000 lads wouldnt be in the Guard Room that day.

    Anyway, this is about two seperate State assets providing a similar task for the State but being paid astronomically different OT by the State. What is your opininon on that?

    If youre going to have a pot shot at someone, at least bring some live ammo with you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,685 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    In 22 years I'll be forced to work where a defence force member can retire with a pension.

    Now now, lets give you an update pussy...hands.

    But first, if you work extra hours, is it sitting behind a desk or is it self sufficient and out in the elements with no support? Is there a guy next to you doing the same job for more pay?

    DF members who joined before 2006 can retire at 21 years service on a pension. An Enlisted rank will still need to secure employment as (in my case) the pension will cover the mortgage payment but I will still need to eat....so I am very much forced to work....like yourself.

    DF members who joined later (I think there are 3 more variants) will have differing contracts. Some need to serve 31 years before becoming eligible for a pension. Some need to serve 31 years but cannot draw their pension until they are 60 and others 65.

    We all cannot leave at 21 and draw down pension.

    There are valid reasons why soldiers can leave at 21 and recieve a pension but the ones cited to me may not be correct so I wont post them. I will endevour to find out though if requested.


  • Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    Chewbacca wrote: »
    I hope you wiped the shyte from the side of your mouth after that drivel.

    Anyway, this is about two seperate State assets providing a similar task for the State but being paid astronomically different OT by the State. What is your opininon on that?

    Well if that knacker response is representative of the DF then I hope their pay is reduced so. A spoiled brat pack that are not even required by the state, paid by taxpayers that actually have to work for a living, to hide away inside their billets and lie in their bunks all week all week, and then whining when they are given anything to do.
    Chewbacca wrote: »
    If youre going to have a pot shot at someone, at least bring some live ammo with you.

    Yeah, as if the Irish DF have a large stock of ammo, how much did you sign out, and what are you going to threaten me next with ? A hard of hearing or a sore back claim ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,685 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Also, just FYI.

    Soldiers frustrations are not aimed at just this event. There are 10+ years of context you guys are missing.

    Someone earlier asked "when did the DF get political"?

    Well the answer is, as soon as the DF were used as the "fall guy" by the State when the recession hit. And most recently by a 'weak as puppy sh1t' Chief of Staff whose sole focus is to get a cushy gig when he retires. Instead of looking after his troops, he is feathering his own nest and taking that Government cock at both ends.

    Fcuk the lads.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,685 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Well if that knacker response is representative of the DF then I hope their pay is reduced so. A spoiled brat pack that are not even required by the state, paid by taxpayers that actually have to work for a living, to hide away inside their billets and lie in their bunks all week all week, and then whining when they are given anything to do.

    Yeah, as if they Irish DF have a large stock of ammo, so what are you going to threaten me next with ?

    Come back to us when you have an idea of what you are taking about....you clearly dont.

    I didnt threaten you....please read again and this time, try to understand. Or at least get someone else to read it and explain it to you.....it was a methaphor for you having useless information...i.e blank rounds...not live rounds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    Chewbacca wrote: »
    Come back to us when you have an idea of what you are taking about....you clearly dont.

    I didnt threaten you....please read again and this time, try to understand. Or at least get someone else to read it and explain it to you.....it was a methaphor for you having useless information...i.e blank rounds...not live rounds.

    Just try threatening someone else with live rounds again and see how you get on. Go and have a lie down in your bunk and scratch your balls again, your'e well paid for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭FirefighterT7


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Thank you Swarlb, I couldn’t have summed it up better apart from the highly paid part, most of Irish fire service is retained and a lot struggle to make ends meat, hence why I can relate to Defence Forces and feel so sorry for them and how they are treated. Thank you for the support and be safe!


    Just saw your post fair play lad. I was in the service myself. Retained. Cheap way for the council to have 24hour cover. Absolute p*ss take. Often on call at 3 In the morning and in to my regular job at 8. Hard life.

    You know what I’m talking about! It’s a hard life but it’s harder when treated like crap and more cuts every 2 weeks.. Well done for you’re service Hitman3000


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭FirefighterT7


    Chewbacca wrote: »
    Come back to us when you have an idea of what you are taking about....you clearly dont.

    I didnt threaten you....please read again and this time, try to understand. Or at least get someone else to read it and explain it to you.....it was a methaphor for you having useless information...i.e blank rounds...not live rounds.

    Just try threatening someone else with live rounds again and see how you get on. Go and have a lie down in your bunk and scratch your balls again, your'e well paid for it.

    It’s funny that you are the one on about knacker responses when that’s what you come back to the table with, kettle pot springs to mind.. do us all a favour and go stir Crap somewhere else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    It’s funny that you are the one on about knacker responses when that’s what you come back to the table with, kettle pot springs to mind.. do us all a favour and go stir Crap somewhere else.

    And another overpaid bed scratcher leaps to the rescue, no cats stuck up a tree or power washing to do this morning ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭FirefighterT7


    It’s funny that you are the one on about knacker responses when that’s what you come back to the table with, kettle pot springs to mind.. do us all a favour and go stir Crap somewhere else.

    And another overpaid bed scratcher leaps to the rescue, no cats stuck up a tree or power washing to do this morning ?

    What do you do?? Come on tell us


  • Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    What do you do?? Come on tell us

    I'm another taxpayer that pays your wages, that already pays too much for you lie around around complaining all day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭FirefighterT7


    What do you do?? Come on tell us

    I'm another taxpayer that pays your wages, that already pays too much for you lie around around complaining all day.

    Yeah I’m sure you work very hard being a Keyboard warrior but that’s not taxable, so have a nice day being ignorant


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,685 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Just try threatening someone else with live rounds again and see how you get on. Go and have a lie down in your bunk and scratch your balls again, your'e well paid for it.

    More nonsense out of you.

    I apologise for being curt but it's hard to debate with people like yourself that have no idea what they are talking about but continue to post as if they do...but hey, thats your problem.

    Please highlight where I threatened anyone with live ammunition. Feel free to report it to the Mods or An Garda Siochana if you want to make a fool of yourself.

    I think its best if we ignore each other...unless you actually have something relevent to say or when your comprehension improves.

    Best of luck

    Edit:

    Actually, I just copped you joined the site 2 weeks ago. LOL, I wont be reponding to you again :pac: Cant believe I fell for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    Chewbacca wrote: »
    More nonsense out of you.

    I apologise for being curt but it's hard to debate with people like yourself that have no idea what they are talking about but continue to post as if they do...but hey, thats your problem.

    Please highlight where I threatened anyone with live ammunition. Feel free to report it to the Mods or An Garda Siochana if you want to make a fool of yourself.

    I think its best if we ignore each other...unless you actually have something relevent to say or when your comprehension improves.

    Best of luck

    Edit:

    Actually, I just copped you joined the site 2 weeks ago. LOL, I wont be reponding to you again :pac: Cant believe I fell for it.

    Might be best if you like to dish it out but can't take it, can't control your reactions, and then and resort to inferences about live ammunition.

    So far I haven't seen much reputable behavior from members of the DF here, or evidence of their CO's and PA's enforcing any recent discipline in their Units.

    Certainly no reason for taxpayers to fork out even more of there hard earned taxes for this kind of continued deterioration in DF standards of behavior.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭mrsoundie


    Might be best if you like to dish it out but can't take it, can't control your reactions, and then and resort to inferences about live ammunition.

    So far I haven't seen much reputable behavior from members of the DF here, or evidence of their CO's and PA's enforcing any recent discipline in their Units.

    Certainly no reason for taxpayers to fork out even more of there hard earned taxes for this kind of continued deterioration in DF standards of behavior.

    You were told already that you don't know what you are talking about.

    Get that chip off your shoulder and make a decent contribution. All you have done so far is recycle old jokes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,710 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Victor wrote: »
    Why didn't the just move somewhere else?

    Paid from the neck down like all squaddies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,685 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Might be best if you like to dish it out but can't take it, can't control your reactions, and then and resort to inferences about live ammunition.

    So far I haven't seen much reputable behavior from members of the DF here, or evidence of their CO's and PA's enforcing any recent discipline in their Units.

    Certainly no reason for taxpayers to fork out even more of there hard earned taxes for this kind of continued deterioration in DF standards of behavior.

    I have been measured with my responses.

    You however, cannot accurately comprehend them. That is a failing on your part.

    Your word choice is abysmal. You say 'inference about live ammunition'. That makes no sense, do you know what the word 'inference' means?

    You have been told once, now you will be told again because you dont understand what a metaphor is.

    Your illinformed points, arguments and opinions are baseless....therefore the implied metaphor is your brain (or weapon) is using blank ammunition. You were advised to use 'Live ammunition' next time, as in, get your brain to compose a post containing relevent and informed points and opinions.

    Unfortunately for you and indeed all of us here, not only are you not clever enough to debate on the subject, you are deficient the knowledge, context or ability to engage with anyone with the knowledge.

    Keep up the top notch posts with references to historic deafness claims and lying on beds.

    Thats a good lad welcome to my ignore list.


  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭RobbieMD


    Chewbacca wrote: »
    This is not about pay parity between services. You do not seem to have a grasp of the situation.

    This is about payment for out of hours service.

    In this scenario, the Defence Forces conducted tasks that An Garda Siochana could/would not do.

    An Garda Siochana were rotated every couple of hours. They got to wind down in the local pubs and hotels which were booked out exclusively for them. Hot, fresh carvery food, tea, water and shelter. They recieved up to €40 per hour for this.

    The Defence Forces were sent into the Phoenix Park on Saturday to perfrom armed patrols and were told, "See ye on Sunday evening lads, hope ye have yer wet gear".

    "Rest areas" were provided. This was a 10 man tent which 40 lads were meant to be able to squeze into...no chance. Lads had to bivi up along the railings out in the rain. Unfortunately in locations which had used needles and bags of faeces strewn around. The food was pre packed sandwiches and substandard tin foil meals.

    The Defence Forces are no strangers to hardship, this was not particularly hard by any means. They dont care about patrolling or sleeping in the rain with limited shelter or insufficient food.

    They care about being paid on par with the lads who requested their presence at the event in the first place...i.e AGS. Soldiers are cheaper than AGS members despite being better trained with a higher skillset and vast armed operational experience gleaned from operating in hostile environments.

    Monetarily, you get 30+ soldiers for the price of 1 AGS member. If you don't see a problem with that then Im not going to try to convince you.

    I know a few AGS members who were working at the Papal visit. They will be close to clearing €1k for working less time sitting down dry in a car while the soldier wont even clear €100.

    Out of interest, how much does your job pay you for overtime, is it less than €2 per hour?

    I'd have an issue with some of what you've raised here. Members of AGS were not rotated every couple of hours, into hotels and pubs for hot carvery, or sitting dry in cars all day.

    Like the DF personnel there, members were out from 5am, got soaked standing at the gates and walking their beats in the park and surrounds. They were not stood down til 8pm or later.

    As broadcast by RTE, they were given brown paper bag lunches with sandwiches, apples, a bottle of water and for some reason wine gums. 1000s of bags of which were dumped. They too had no shelter except for their break in the tents.

    I sincerely doubt anyone got €1000 for the day. Even at your rates of €40/hr it's still 25hrs of work.
    and you can deduct slightly more than half of that in taxes and pension levies etc. It's closer to €20/hr

    You also said "Soldiers are cheaper than AGS members despite being better trained with a higher skillset and vast armed operational experience gleaned from operating in hostile environments"

    I absolutely agree that DF personnel were/are treated poorly and remunerated poorly. But it's not fair to either PDF or AGS to compare their roles or denigrate what the other offers. Both roles are more complicated than simply appears on the surface or what the public see. They complement each other and ultimately are at the whim of government in events such as the popes visit. Is it not true that AGS train the DF in certain areas?

    AGS rep bodies have consistently fought for better pay and conditions for their members. The DF deserves the same and their rep bodies should be fighting for it.

    I know plenty of members of AGS who wouldn't have worked the popes visit only rest days were cancelled, annual leave refused and members forced to work ridiculous hours. I assume that the DF members working there were under similar instruction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,685 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    Paid from the neck down like all squaddies.

    British troops are known as Squaddies.

    They actually tidied the area so civilians would not come across the drug paraphanalia.

    In fact, on their down time they used what was above their neck to look for more paraphanalia and arranged for it to be disposed of.

    Soldiers are trained to follow orders, they are also trained to use their own initiative, which they do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭mrsoundie


    It's refreshing to see those in the know, make coherent arguments and rebuttals.

    Whereas those with limited knowledge make outlandish claims and then scurry away when confronted. Stop listening to the rumours and contact those who are serving or who have served, they will put you straight.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,685 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    RobbieMD wrote: »
    I'd have an issue with some of what you've raised here. Members of AGS were not rotated every couple of hours, into hotels and pubs for hot carvery, or sitting dry in cars all day.

    No AGS members were stationed or fed from Commiskys or the Hole in the Wall? They were both closed to civilians for the duration.

    According to an AGS member I know, they were. Is that false? Can you check with the guys you know and get back to me.
    RobbieMD wrote: »
    Like the DF personnel there, members were out from 5am, got soaked standing at the gates and walking their beats in the park and surrounds. They were not stood down til 8pm or later.

    Thats true and I agree and did not think otherwise....I saw them there.
    RobbieMD wrote: »
    As broadcast by RTE, they were given brown paper bag lunches with sandwiches, apples, a bottle of water and for some reason wine gums. 1000s of bags of which were dumped. They too had no shelter except for their break in the tents.

    Ridiculous situation, I agree....wine gums were for morale.
    RobbieMD wrote: »
    I sincerely doubt anyone got €1000 for the day. Even at your rates of €40/hr it's still 25hrs of work.
    and you can deduct slightly more than half of that in taxes and pension levies etc. It's closer to €20/hr

    I was informed, again by a different AGS member...well boasted to in fact, that for the weekend in OT, it was worth almost €1k to him.

    Have I been misinformed? Were they pulling my leg? If so, let me know what it was worth...not a figure based on your doubt. A figure from an AGS member. Thats all I have been going on.
    RobbieMD wrote: »
    You also said "Soldiers are cheaper than AGS members despite being better trained with a higher skillset and vast armed operational experience gleaned from operating in hostile environments".

    I absolutely agree that DF personnel were/are treated poorly and remunerated poorly. But it's not fair to either PDF or AGS to compare their roles or denigrate what the other offers. Both roles are more complicated than simply appears on the surface or what the public see. They complement each other and ultimately are at the whim of government in events such as the popes visit. Is it not true that AGS train the DF in certain areas?

    I completely agree. My point was that the Government see soldiers as a lesser asset. It wasnt intended to be a dig at AGS, it was to highlight the monetary value which the Government has assisgned to both services.

    The issue is with the Government but to highlight that, a comparison needs to be made.
    RobbieMD wrote: »
    AGS rep bodies have consistently fought for better pay and conditions for their members. The DF deserves the same and their rep bodies should be fighting for it.

    They have been but dont really have a voice.
    RobbieMD wrote: »
    I know plenty of members of AGS who wouldn't have worked the popes visit only rest days were cancelled, annual leave refused and members forced to work ridiculous hours. I assume that the DF members working there were under similar instruction.

    Same same.


  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭RobbieMD


    I'm sure some members up around there were fed at the pub. I know I wasn't. I wasn't fed in a tent with loads of others. I'm sure the local members were cuter about where they were posted and used it to their advantage.

    As regards pay, I'm at the top of my scale. Ordinary OT is about €37/hr. Sunday is about €50/hr.

    Between the two days I got my 15hrs OT.

    Say approx €650, or just under half of that after deductions.

    Junior members would be on less pay so their overtime rates would be less accordingly. Say €24-€32/hr depending on ordinary v Sunday overtime.

    I was rostered to work both days anyways, so the first 10hrs were just ordinary pay before the overtime kicked in.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,259 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I'm another taxpayer that pays your wages, that already pays too much for you lie around around complaining all day.
    And another overpaid bed scratcher leaps to the rescue, no cats stuck up a tree or power washing to do this morning ?

    [mod]One-line posts consisting of nothing but insult are not acceptable behaviour. Week ban.[/mod]
    They were both closed to civilians for the duration.

    And here I was hoping that the military forum would be the last bastion of the legal definition of 'civilian' from the encroachment which has been going on for several years, starting in the US.

    Gardai are civilians. You would want to say "Private citizens"


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,685 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    RobbieMD wrote: »
    I'm sure some members up around there were fed at the pub. I know I wasn't. I wasn't fed in a tent with loads of others. I'm sure the local members were cuter about where they were posted and used it to their advantage.

    As regards pay, I'm at the top of my scale. Ordinary OT is about €37/hr. Sunday is about €50/hr.

    Between the two days I got my 15hrs OT.

    Say approx €650, or just under half of that after deductions.

    Junior members would be on less pay so their overtime rates would be less accordingly. Say €24-€32/hr depending on ordinary v Sunday overtime.

    I was rostered to work both days anyways, so the first 10hrs were just ordinary pay before the overtime kicked in.

    My guy must have been pulling my leg on the €1k so. Thanks for the clarification.


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