Munster vs Exeter Chiefs, Sat 19th Jan 5:30pm, Virgin Media / C4 / BT

20-01-2019 2:54pm

I don't think that's fair Venjur, Munsters tactics/strategy aren't what cost Exeter the game - it was silly decision after silly decision and stupid mistakes (like winning a scrum penalty near their own 22, opting for another scrum and then giving away a penalty / having a lineout within range of a driving maul try and taking so long to throw the lineout that they give away a penalty).

That wasn't Munster winning a chess match, not to take away from what Munster did extremely well.

From start to finish this game was always Exeter's to lose. They were always in control but let themselves down time and time again.

20-01-2019 3:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think that's fair Venjur, Munsters tactics/strategy aren't what cost Exeter the game - it was silly decision after silly decision and stupid mistakes (like winning a scrum penalty near their own 22, opting for another scrum and then giving away a penalty / having a lineout within range of a driving maul try and taking so long to throw the lineout that they give away a penalty).

That wasn't Munster winning a chess match, not to take away from what Munster did extremely well.

From start to finish this game was always Exeter's to lose. They were always in control but let themselves down time and time again.

Except Munster took the points on offer when they presented and Exeter didn't.

Which to me means that Munster's on field decision making was superior despite Exeter's physical dominance...?

CatFromHue · 20-01-2019 3:12pm

It looked like Exeter were trying to get 4 trys which makes it a very different game and seems strange as if they'd won and stopped Munster getting a lbp they'd have topped the pool.

20-01-2019 3:21pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Except Munster took the points on offer when they presented and Exeter didn't.

Which to me means that Munster's on field decision making was superior despite Exeter's physical dominance...?

Munster took the points because they had no other reasonable options. It wasn't a tactical choice in response to the score board or Exeter's game plan.

Have you ever actually played chess? A chess match isn't what you seem to imagine it is.

Making what turns out to be the right choice in hindsight isn't the same thing as a reactive strategy. Munster kicked their penalties from start to finish regardless of what Exeter did or did not do. The overreliance on Beirne for winning penalties at the breakdown wasn't some sort of chess match, nor was Conor Murray pointlessly returning possession via bad box kicks every time Munster actually had possession for a few seconds. One Exeter player looked particularly bad under the high ball but instead of targeting him specifically it was just relentlessly kick the ball away wherever and to whoever, anything to avoid retaining possession.

Where exactly is the comparison to a chess match in any of that? It seems you believe that any team who wins= playing a chess match because they won, a fairly standard post-hoc fallacy and ludicrously reductive.

Peregrine · 20-01-2019 3:23pm

Exeter kicking to touch wasn't poor on field decision making and it surely wasn't a surprise. I think they've slotted just one penalty since the start of December. That's how they've been playing and it's coming from higher up.

Snickers Man · 20-01-2019 3:40pm

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

Am I right in saying we'll be away to Edinburgh? Assuming, of course, Leinster win their game.

I'd take that.

Almost certainly Munster's q final will be away to Edinburgh. The only combination of results that will see an alternative will be Leinster losing without a bonus point AND Toulouse getting any result other than a bonus point win.

In that eventuality, Munster will be home to whoever wins Leinster/Toulouse group.

Book your tickets to Edinburgh already.

Boscoirl · 20-01-2019 3:41pm

Took the gamble last night and booked flights

shootermacg · 20-01-2019 3:51pm

mystic86 wrote: »

I thought it was a poor spectacle and a poor Munster performance. Shoot me.

Yeah not one for the show ponies. Exeter competed at almost every ruck, so every ruck had to be resourced and battled. You want to play wide wide against Exeter?

A lot of teams try that and a lot of teams fail.

Stout Warrior · 20-01-2019 4:01pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Munster took the points because they had no other reasonable options. It wasn't a tactical choice in response to the score board or Exeter's game plan.

Have you ever actually played chess? A chess match isn't what you seem to imagine it is.

Making what turns out to be the right choice in hindsight isn't the same thing as a reactive strategy. Munster kicked their penalties from start to finish regardless of what Exeter did or did not do. The overreliance on Beirne for winning penalties at the breakdown wasn't some sort of chess match, nor was Conor Murray pointlessly returning possession via bad box kicks every time Munster actually had possession for a few seconds. One Exeter player looked particularly bad under the high ball but instead of targeting him specifically it was just relentlessly kick the ball away wherever and to whoever, anything to avoid retaining possession.

Where exactly is the comparison to a chess match in any of that? It seems you believe that any team who wins= playing a chess match because they won, a fairly standard post-hoc fallacy and ludicrously reductive.

The over reliance on Beirne at the breakdown isn't a tactic he makes the decisions on the field which rucks to target and more often than not gets it right. That isn't a coaching decision it's a player decision.

Also when you have the best scrumhalf in the world at box kicking that is a tactic you rely on. It's playing to the teams strengths. Also when you have wingers like Conway and Earls who are very good at retrieving high balls off box kicks you play to that tactic as it is also a strength.

If one Exeter player looked bad under high balls it is up to the leaders on the pitch like Murray to determine that and go to that tactic. It's very difficult for coaches to relay decisions like that on to the field in real time.

You're trying to highlight a shortcoming in the coaching setup which is not necessarily there. Van Graan has brought Joey on to being one of the best fly halves in Europe in a very short space of time. Did you ever think of talking about his strengths to balance your argument?

Clegg · 20-01-2019 4:11pm

Joey is not yet one of the best 10's in Europe. It's mad to even suggest so. He's a promising player but not yet the finished article. It's only 6 weeks ago that he had an absolute meltdown against Castres.

I think he will be great eventually. But he isn't there yet.

budhabob · 20-01-2019 4:15pm

Clegg wrote: »

Joey is not yet one of the best 10's in Europe. It's mad to even suggest so. He's a promising player but not yet the finished article. It's only 6 weeks ago that he had an absolute meltdown against Castres.

I think he will be great eventually. But he isn't there yet.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out even the best experienced players have melt downs - Sexton against Munster a few weeks ago.

Stout Warrior · 20-01-2019 4:20pm

Clegg wrote: »

Joey is not yet one of the best 10's in Europe. It's mad to even suggest so. He's a promising player but not yet the finished article. It's only 6 weeks ago that he had an absolute meltdown against Castres.

I think he will be great eventually. But he isn't there yet.

Well out of the top 8 teams in Europe where does he rank? He's better than Toulouse fly half he's better than Ulster fly half. Can't think of the Edinburgh fly half but I would think he's probably better than him. The only ones not up for debate are Farrell Sexton and Russell.

Off the top of my head the only better French outhalves are Steyn urdapilleta and Lopez. Beaucxis is arguable. Who else do you have Plisson or Trin Duhc? He's better than them

Who is there from wales patchell and Biggar? Biggar would be ahead of him but I'm not sure Patchell would be.

F.nelson · 20-01-2019 5:13pm

Boscoirl wrote: »

Took the gamble last night and booked flights

I'm afraid to book them until the date has been announced. Edinburghs last 2 home games were Friday night games. And with football being on in Edinburgh on the Saturday it could be the Sunday either

Boscoirl · 20-01-2019 5:29pm

F.nelson wrote: »

I'm afraid to book them until the date has been announced. Edinburghs last 2 home games were Friday night games. And with football being on in Edinburgh on the Saturday it could be the Sunday either

I booked the outbound flight on Friday night for €25 after the Edinburgh game. Booked the return flight last Night for Sunday and will cover a Sunday game.

If I am Unlucky and have to get a Friday flight. I won’t have lost too much

xredmanlfcx · 20-01-2019 5:36pm

I have 3 Airbnb's for Edinburgh for Friday 29th March to checkout on Monday 1st April that I now do not need. While it stated there was a full cancellation within 48 hours, they now will only give back 75% of what I paid, and not the 100% they promised. 3 nights, for 4 people, for about €300 (€100 a night). All 3 are located in the city centre (old town).

If anyone wants one, PM me. I'll give it for €10 off!

F.nelson · 20-01-2019 6:37pm

Boscoirl wrote: »

I booked the outbound flight on Friday night for €25 after the Edinburgh game. Booked the return flight last Night for Sunday and will cover a Sunday game.

If I am Unlucky and have to get a Friday flight. I won’t have lost too much

For what it's worth and I'm just wondering as I'm limited in when I can go (a Friday night game would be ideal for me. Racing Toulouse will definitely be a Sunday game. So between the 3 other games BT will want saracens v Glasgow on the Saturday and Leinster v Ulster too I would suspect. In my opinion that could put Munster Edinburgh on the friday night, or maybe an early Sunday kick off, but I have a feeling the friday is what they'll go with

aloooof · 21-01-2019 11:27am

I'll chime in on my thoughts on this:

1. Brutally physical, thoroughly enjoyable game. Tense throughout but a great one to come out on the right side of.

2. After Exeter's maul try, I thought we'd be up against it and expected to see at least one repeat of that before the end of the game. All credit to the defence for that.

3. That period before half-time when time was up was crazy. Think we were lucky to get out of that without conceding; if we had, Exeter would've had their backs up.

4. Their 9 was exceptionally good throughout. I'd go as far as saying he was better than his opposite number. It isn't often you'd say that!

5. In the second half, I think Munster won some of the big moments. Billy Holland's steal comes to mind (even putting 2 jumpers into the lineout took some balls). Kleyn's jackal turnover as well was a big moment. Can't remember the last time he's won a pen like that!

6. Our attacking play, the limited times when we did try to put it through the hands, reminded me of the Leinster semi in RDS. Stuff just not quite sticking.

7. Having said that, it's only the second time we've had our starting 9-10-12-13 play together. Coupled with a new, young 10 into the mix this season. This stuff doesn't happen over night.

8. I fear we're going to have a large injury toll from this match. Lots of players seemed to be carrying knocks by the end.

Cookiemunster · 21-01-2019 11:45am

aloooof wrote: »

8. I fear we're going to have a large injury toll from this match. Lots of players seemed to be carrying knocks by the end.

Other than Beirne, who's out for the first two rounds of the 6N, and Conway who's out for a week with a 'knock', I doubt there'll be anything worse than sore bodies. The other 9 internationals are traveling to Portugal.

phog · 21-01-2019 12:50pm

I was delighted with our performance on Saturday - whoever did the analysis on Exeter did their homework - we had their measure.

A few of lour lads had below par performances with ball in hand but top notch in defence.

I think Exeter played into our hands by not taking their points but we defended the set piece and open play very well.

The only downer from the game was the two injuries - TOB and Beirne.

ArmchairQB · 21-01-2019 1:03pm

shootermacg wrote: »

Yeah not one for the show ponies. Exeter competed at almost every ruck, so every ruck had to be resourced and battled. You want to play wide wide against Exeter?

A lot of teams try that and a lot of teams fail.

I thought Munster rode their luck abit POM very lucky not to give away penalty for last play of the game came steaming in from the side no hands used in the clear out either.

Delighted Munster got the win great to see all the provinces go thru in Europe. Can it be an All Ireland final or would they meet at semi final?

Buer · 21-01-2019 1:04pm

aloooof wrote: »

6. Our attacking play, the limited times when we did try to put it through the hands, reminded me of the Leinster semi in RDS. Stuff just not quite sticking.

7. Having said that, it's only the second time we've had our starting 9-10-12-13 play together. Coupled with a new, young 10 into the mix this season. This stuff doesn't happen over night.

Munster are definitely taking it slowly with Carbery but I do believe it's also the preferred game plan to an extent. It's not that common in this part of the world to see scrum half run the show but when your scrum half is Conor Murray, it's not exactly a bad plan.

But it's more unusual for the outhalf to be involved as little as Carbery is. He's not really used as a game runner or to direct Munster's attack. In a weird way, he's used more for strike plays or set moves when the pack has stretched the defence and his pace and passing can be used to maximum effect.

In both of the last two rounds of the tournament, Carbery has been involved less than any other outhalf on both weekends passing the ball 10 times against Gloucester and only 7 times against Exeter. In 150 minutes, that equates to the outhalf passing the ball around every 9 minutes. It's obviously not doing too bad a job given Munster are into the quarter finals but, when a team can match Munster physically, they need to have more spark and involvement from Carbery to open up the opposition.

There were three games in this pool stage where the opposition pack were able to really put it up to Munster; the Exeter games and away to Castres. Those three games resulted in a single try which was a pick and go. To beat the likes of Saracens, Munster are going to have to develop another aspect to their back play and bring Carbery into the fold more. They're not going to beat their forwards up.

People have pointed the finger at Felix Jones but I'm not sure he can shoulder all the blame. It's clearly a pre-determined approach to take things on up front and only move to Carbery at certain moments rather than letting Carbery direct things. With a few months under his belt now, I'd hope/expect that we see a substantial increase in the backs involvement post-6N.

phog · 21-01-2019 1:05pm

ArmchairQB wrote: »

I thought Munster rode their luck abit POM very lucky not to give away penalty for last play of the game came steaming in from the side no hands used in the clear out either.

Delighted Munster got the win great to see all the provinces go thru in Europe. Can it be an All Ireland final or would they meet at semi final?

If the ref blew that he'd have to have been smuggled out of Thomond Park as he hadn't blown any instance of coming in from the side for the previous 80 mins.

Now from reading the Munster thread that's all I'll say about the ref.

monkeybutter · 21-01-2019 3:41pm

Thought it was a very poor game

Exeter just didn't want to win, just crazy, Munster got a let off because of it

Not kicking penalties, it was just mad, rarely seen the likes of it. New Zealand vs France 2003 no drop goals might almost match it, but not quite as that was more a bottle issue.

Henry Ford III · 21-01-2019 3:47pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

...Exeter just didn't want to win, just crazy, Munster got a let off because of it......

I'm not sure what game you watched but there was no lack of desire from Exeter imho.

Munster took them on physically and edged it. Both teams were totally committed.

It was a nail biter of a game, and in it's own way was absolutely absorbing.

phog · 21-01-2019 3:59pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

Thought it was a very poor game

Exeter just didn't want to win, just crazy, Munster got a let off because of it

Not kicking penalties, it was just mad, rarely seen the likes of it. New Zealand vs France 2003 no drop goals might almost match it, but not quite as that was more a bottle issue.

Exter absolutely wanted to win it they just wanted to win like they usually do by scoring tries. According to their fans that I met at both fixtures they don't usually opt to kick at goal, they prefer to go to the corner and score from the lineouts.

They're the top team in the premiership and I think they have the highest number of tries scored this season.

phog · 21-01-2019 4:05pm

From Murray Kinsella

Munster's top tacklers against Exeter.

25 - CJ Stander
17 - Jean Kleyn, Dave Kilcoyne
16 - Peter O'Mahony
11 - Niall Scannell, Chris Farrell, Arno Botha
10 - Conor Murray

Some work rate from the lads.

yerrahbah · 21-01-2019 4:10pm

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1086964056022441985

Buer · 21-01-2019 4:12pm

Fantastic from Holland. Loughman actually loses him in the air briefly but he still maintains his shape and focus. Massive couple of weeks for him and the plaudits couldn't go to a more deserving guy.

who_me · 21-01-2019 4:15pm

phog wrote: »

From Murray Kinsella

Some work rate from the lads.

The competition stats make very good reading for Munster players. Stander is in the top 3 for tackles and carries, Beirne is the top for turnovers, Carbery the top points scorer.

In terms of tries scored / defenders beaten / offloads... it's not as good.

Boscoirl · 21-01-2019 4:19pm

Unbelievable stats for a 15min cameo

Sabre0001 · 21-01-2019 4:20pm

But also difficult to score against

https://twitter.com/threeredkings/status/1087281708247011328

Definitely would like to see more in attack (and we've seen glimpses), but some nice stats to reflect upon from the group stage.

aloooof · 21-01-2019 4:53pm

Anyone got any lineout stats? I remember after the first 2 rounds, there was some talk of our lineout malfunctioning. Personally, I thought that was just down to a small sample size, coupled with conditions in Sandy Park.

EPCR site has us 6th for lineouts won (71) but that's completely devoid of context e.g. lineouts taken, lineouts won on opposition throw etc.

razorblunt · 21-01-2019 4:58pm

phog wrote: »

Exter absolutely wanted to win it they just wanted to win like they usually do by scoring tries. According to their fans that I met at both fixtures they don't usually opt to kick at goal, they prefer to go to the corner and score from the lineouts.

They're the top team in the premiership and I think they have the highest number of tries scored this season.

That's all fine and well in a league format but this was KO rugby where all they needed to do was win by +8.
Absolute madness they stuck to their guns.

Riskymove · 21-01-2019 5:02pm

razorblunt wrote: »

That's all fine and well in a league format but this was KO rugby where all they needed to do was win by +8.
Absolute madness they stuck to their guns.

in fairness if they had gotten a second try in the first half from some of their opportunities they probably would have started kicking penalties

very had to try and win a game (especially such a well matched one) by more than 8 just through penalties

thomond2006 · 21-01-2019 5:03pm

They absolutely had to go for the lineout that was eventually stolen by Holland. They were up by one and needed to win by eight, kicking a penalty would have been meaningless.

ArmchairQB · 21-01-2019 5:09pm

phog wrote: »

From Murray Kinsella

Some work rate from the lads.

Yet he doesn't list Holland as one of the top tacklers with the 13 he says he had??

Sabre0001 · 21-01-2019 5:12pm

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Yet he doesn't list Holland as one of the top tacklers with the 13 he says he had??

Last fortnight for BH stats.

Sangre · 21-01-2019 5:14pm

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Yet he doesn't list Holland as one of the top tacklers with the 13 he says he had??

He says impact over last fortnight so presumably those are stats over course of 2 games rather than 1?

molloyjh · 21-01-2019 5:38pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

They absolutely had to go for the lineout that was eventually stolen by Holland. They were up by one and needed to win by eight, kicking a penalty would have been meaningless.

Yep, but having had the last one knicked by POM they should have been smarter about the call.

phog · 21-01-2019 5:41pm

razorblunt wrote: »

That's all fine and well in a league format but this was KO rugby where all they needed to do was win by +8.
Absolute madness they stuck to their guns.

That hardly means they didn't want to win which is what was stated in the post I replied to.

Originally Posted by monkeybutter

Exeter just didn't want to win

They wanted to win just went about it poorly

thomond2006 wrote: »

They absolutely had to go for the lineout that was eventually stolen by Holland. They were up by one and needed to win by eight, kicking a penalty would have been meaningless.

If they kicked their earlier penalties then they might not have had to go for that lineout but as you say with the scoreboard the way it was at that particular time then yes, their only option was to go for the try.

who_me · 22-01-2019 3:29pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

They absolutely had to go for the lineout that was eventually stolen by Holland. They were up by one and needed to win by eight, kicking a penalty would have been meaningless.

In a weird way - getting the try so easily on their 1st lineout & maul attempt was a great result for Munster. Probably partially because of that (I know Exeter's maul game is always strong) they kept opting for it throughout the game, even though if they had made the penalty kicks they could well have ground out the margin they needed.

But at that late stage, they had to go for the corner. Munster's defence was incredibly well disciplined, it was very unlikely they'd get 3 kickable penalties in that time period.

leakyboots · 22-01-2019 5:45pm

Both packs completely cancelled each other out. Exeter had something like 80 carries for 80m and we had 34 carries for 34m according to Twitter.

Ferreira is doing a great job with the defence this year

aloooof · 22-01-2019 5:47pm

leakyboots wrote: »

Both packs completely cancelled each other out. Exeter had something like 80 carries for 80m and we had 34 carries for 34m according to Twitter.

Ferreira is doing a great job with the defence this year

I feared our defence could regress when Neinaber left, but credit where it's to due to Ferreira alright!

phog · 22-01-2019 5:48pm

leakyboots wrote: »

Both packs completely cancelled each other out. Exeter had something like 80 carries for 80m and we had 34 carries for 34m according to Twitter.

Ferreira is doing a great job with the defence this year

I absolutely enjoyed that match from start to finish - the defence was hard and accurate. Nearly every play went backwards from the gainline.

who_me · 22-01-2019 8:55pm

phog wrote: »

I absolutely enjoyed that match from start to finish - the defence was hard and accurate. Nearly every play went backwards from the gainline.

It was brilliant, each ruck was an absolute battle; with brief skirmishes of rugby breaking out in between.

I remember one ruck in particular, Stander is hanging onto the ball thinking he's won it, Simmonds was trying to pull it out of his hands and out of the ruck. Someone illegally flies in from the side clearing Stander out of it (scuffle breaks out). Meanwhile someone (Hill?) flies in at the back of the ruck, and Murray is yelling to the ref to check it for a shoulder charge. Absolute chaos. Ref just wants to call a scrum and get on with the game as painlessly as possible.

I think the only people capable of reffing these games would be a primary level schoolteacher. Or an Irish mum. Preferably, both.

Munster vs Exeter Chiefs, Sat 19th Jan 5:30pm, Virgin Media / C4 / BT

Comments