Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

jonnybigwallet · 15-12-2018 4:55pm

The Cessnas are even aulder! These F4's are still in front line service with 2 highly professional air forces and no doubt have been well maintained. The AC could cherry pick the airframes with lowest hours / rotations on the clock. Its a very versatile multirole aircraft which would be useful for maintaining an air exclusion zone and for defence of the nation post brexit. Anyway....they could be acquired at a good price. BTW. I see the DF have just splashed out 60 million on some surface to air missiles. Big wonga! Thanks for your quick fire response Sparky!

ZeroThreat · 15-12-2018 4:58pm

sparky42 wrote: »

:rolleyes:
The trolling is getting stupid now.

Between the costs (including human) involved in ancient airframes falling out of the sky and high maintenance time & costs on such antique machines, it would probably just be cheaper over time to operate a single squadron of gripens rather than go down that road....

ohnonotgmail · 15-12-2018 5:00pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

The Cessnas are even aulder! These F4's are still in front line service with 2 highly professional air forces and no doubt have been well maintained. The AC could cherry pick the airframes with lowest hours / rotations on the clock. Its a very versatile multirole aircraft which would be useful for maintaining an air exclusion zone and for defence of the nation post brexit. Anyway....they could be acquired at a good price. BTW. I see the DF have just splashed out 60 million on some surface to air missiles. Big wonga! Thanks for your quick fire response Sparky!

The youngest japanese plane is 35 years old. the youngest. The aussie planes are all older. not really a long term prospect.

jonnybigwallet · 15-12-2018 5:04pm

That's all very well...sure we'd all love to buy a brand new top of the range Mercedes....but if ya aren't all that flush (say yer an auld pensioner like meself) ya have to cut your cloth accordingly. That's why Im buyin me turkey from Aldi this year ( staying with the avian theme)

Heraldoffreeent · 15-12-2018 6:50pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

That's all very well...sure we'd all love to buy a brand new top of the range Mercedes....but if ya aren't all that flush (say yer an auld pensioner like meself) ya have to cut your cloth accordingly. That's why Im buyin me turkey from Aldi this year ( staying with the avian theme)

Maybe stick with commenting on Turkeys?

jonnybigwallet · 15-12-2018 6:54pm

Happy Christmas all my friends here and a jet fuelled new year!

Larbre34 · 15-12-2018 9:51pm

Be careful not to use jet fuel to flambé your pudding. That'd be, um,......terrible.

captpaulf · 16-12-2018 1:55pm

It's 60M Swedish Kroner - about 6M Euro. NOT 60M Euro.

ZeroThreat · 17-12-2018 12:20pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

That's all very well...sure we'd all love to buy a brand new top of the range Mercedes....but if ya aren't all that flush (say yer an auld pensioner like meself) ya have to cut your cloth accordingly. That's why Im buyin me turkey from Aldi this year ( staying with the avian theme)

hmmm a theme of a certain avian variety then?......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WNrx2jq184

Leonidas BL · 14-01-2019 1:08pm

Nice article here about the F-5 Tiger II.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-f-5e-%E2%80%9Ctiger%E2%80%9D-fighter-jet-keeps-getting-better-despite-getting-older-41317

jonnybigwallet · 14-01-2019 6:24pm

Its an absolute cracker! Lets have a dozen of them....

sparky42 · 14-01-2019 6:55pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Its an absolute cracker! Lets have a dozen of them....

Not really, you seem to be missing this point

Brazilian experts stress that the FAB’s capability gap with neighboring air forces was only narrowed by the upgrade and that the F-5EM still remains an outclassed fighter in modern air combat due to its shortcomings and old-school design. Regardless, it was the best the FAB could do on a limited budget and the resulting craft was quite good for the money spent.

They are making use of what they have and their aerospace industry, while not having a budget to do better (given what they have and what they've wasted) doesn't make the fighter anything other than an old design that's "limited" at best. We'd have to source retired airframes then go through a utter rebuild of said airframes in another nation, along with buying all the support equipment.

All up I couldn't see it making any economic sense for what limited capability they would bring.

roadmaster · 14-01-2019 7:02pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Not really, you seem to be missing this point

They are making use of what they have and their aerospace industry, while not having a budget to do better (given what they have and what they've wasted) doesn't make the fighter anything other than an old design that's "limited" at best. We'd have to source retired airframes then go through a utter rebuild of said airframes in another nation, along with buying all the support equipment.

All up I couldn't see it making any economic sense for what limited capability they would bring.

What would be the F5 of today?

CrankyHaus · 14-01-2019 7:05pm

roadmaster wrote: »

What would be the F5 of today?

KAI T50 Golden Eagle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAI_T-50_Golden_Eagle

Leonidas BL · 14-01-2019 8:01pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Not really, you seem to be missing this point

They are making use of what they have and their aerospace industry, while not having a budget to do better (given what they have and what they've wasted) doesn't make the fighter anything other than an old design that's "limited" at best. We'd have to source retired airframes then go through a utter rebuild of said airframes in another nation, along with buying all the support equipment.

All up I couldn't see it making any economic sense for what limited capability they would bring.

You also seem to be missing some points. The main problem the Brazilians seemed to have was range. We would only be using them for air policing, not taking on the most modern fighters.
If Private company's can buy them and upgrade them and then use them as aggressor squadrons, then why can we have some for basic air patrols???
As for economic sense, they are possibly one of the cheapest supersonic fighters in the western world to operate. Hence why some air forces chose them over the F-16.
I agree they have some limits, (range, service ceiling) but really and truly Ireland only really needs something to intercept unknown aircraft and to police its airspace.

sparky42 · 14-01-2019 8:27pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

You also seem to be missing some points. The main problem the Brazilians seemed to have was range. We would only be using them for air policing, not taking on the most modern fighters.
If Private company's can buy them and upgrade them and then use them as aggressor squadrons, then why can we have some for basic air patrols???
As for economic sense, they are possibly one of the cheapest supersonic fighters in the western world to operate. Hence why some air forces chose them over the F-16.
I agree they have some limits, (range, service ceiling) but really and truly Ireland only really needs something to intercept unknown aircraft and to police its airspace.

And if range is an issue how do you deal with a Bear fecking around off the West Coast (as if we had some air patrol capability could we assume that the RAF would still do that?). There's also the lack of the radar supports (either ground based or AWACs).
Using them for Aggressor work is completely different than using them continuously for active duty.
For cheapness, sure they were at the time, the question now is how much it would cost to take such old airframes basically rebuild them from the ground up for the duties that we need compared. The Brazilians had the airframes and the industrial capacity and even they are moving to the Gripens for their future.
I mean is it viable compared to the contracts Eastern EU nations got from Sweden for Gripen airframes on loan? I mean the Czechs got 14 for 10 years for 780m.

cameramonkey · 14-01-2019 8:31pm

https://www.timesofisrael.com/croatia-formally-nixes-f-16-purchase-from-israel-after-us-objection/

few f16s going cheap.

sparky42 · 14-01-2019 8:33pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

https://www.timesofisrael.com/croatia-formally-nixes-f-16-purchase-from-israel-after-us-objection/

few f16s going cheap.

If the US wasn't going to let Croatia (a NATO nation) buy full up Israeli variants they aren't going to let us get them.

Leonidas BL · 14-01-2019 8:50pm

sparky42 wrote: »

And if range is an issue how do you deal with a Bear fecking around off the West Coast (as if we had some air patrol capability could we assume that the RAF would still do that?). There's also the lack of the radar supports (either ground based or AWACs).
Using them for Aggressor work is completely different than using them continuously for active duty.
For cheapness, sure they were at the time, the question now is how much it would cost to take such old airframes basically rebuild them from the ground up for the duties that we need compared. The Brazilians had the airframes and the industrial capacity and even they are moving to the Gripens for their future.
I mean is it viable compared to the contracts Eastern EU nations got from Sweden for Gripen airframes on loan? I mean the Czechs got 14 for 10 years for 780m.

A Bear will mess with the range of any jet, but the fact still remains that we cant even get to them and identify them by ourselves.
The Gripen lease is probably the best for us as I thing it includes training and they can reach about 15,000 ft higher than the F-5.

jonnybigwallet · 14-01-2019 9:32pm

I think we'll have to put that fella SPARKY in charge of the entire defence of Ireland ! Sure the fella has the last word on everything.. the man is a military genius! If auld Jonny Hitler had him on board we would probably had a different outcome for WW2. God Bless him. Sure he's a grand auld divil. A genius !

Heraldoffreeent · 14-01-2019 9:35pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I think we'll have to put that fella SPARKY in charge of the entire defence of Ireland ! Sure the fella has the last word on everything.. the man is a military genius! If auld Jonny Hitler had him on board we would probably had a different outcome for WW2. God Bless him. Sure he's a grand auld divil. A genius !

He is a hell of a lot more clued in than your self.

sparky42 · 14-01-2019 9:57pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I think we'll have to put that fella SPARKY in charge of the entire defence of Ireland ! Sure the fella has the last word on everything.. the man is a military genius! If auld Jonny Hitler had him on board we would probably had a different outcome for WW2. God Bless him. Sure he's a grand auld divil. A genius !

Never said any of the above, just that you tend to post a lot of "out there" suggestions.

As I've said Brazil has them, has the corporate knowledge of sustaining them and the industrial base to rebuild them to a new generation, so it makes sense for them to have gone down this route.

For us, buying surplus F5's and upgrading them to such a standard is utterly pointless, either the Gripen leasing option or F/A 50's would make much more sustainable sense (with current international trends I'd prefer European but that's just me).

Larbre34 · 16-01-2019 4:25am

European is indeed the way to go. In fact the Learjet is already the only non European airframe left in service. It would be the Gripen leasing option for me too.

Jonny Hitler must be an ancestor of our friend above. Figures.

prinzeugen · 17-01-2019 2:25am

sparky42 wrote: »

If the US wasn't going to let Croatia (a NATO nation) buy full up Israeli variants they aren't going to let us get them.

We could. Ireland is not a NATO member. The issue with Israeli jets is that they are kitted out with domestic avionics etc which is not compatible with NATO kit.

Also the US tends to block the sales of any aircraft that that Iran uses. So thats the F5 out. The US buys back all components of scrapped planes to stop Iran getting hold of spares on ebay etc (its happened).

Thats why there are almost no F4 phantoms in museums outside the US. It was a condition of sale.

sparky42 · 17-01-2019 2:31am

prinzeugen wrote: »

We could. Ireland is not a NATO member. The issue with Israeli jets is that they are kitted out with domestic avionics etc which is not compatible with NATO kit.

Actually in this case it seems to be that other Eastern EU/NATO members started asking for the same deal from Israel and the US demanded Israel turn them down, when they didn't the US pulled permission to sell.

A few days later Bulgaria announces they are buying new build F16v's from the States...

jonnybigwallet · 08-03-2019 7:53pm

I wonder when the PC12's are arriving? Two expected this year I believe.

Savage93 · 09-03-2019 9:22pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I wonder when the PC12's are arriving? Two expected this year I believe.

Question and answer

jonnybigwallet · 10-03-2019 7:25pm

Now that's a clever chap!

jonnybigwallet · 11-03-2019 8:13pm

This discussion has become somewhat moribund of late.

Savage93 · 11-03-2019 9:11pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

This discussion has become somewhat moribund of late.

Maybe you should try MENSA or suchlike as we are obviously not intelligent enough to engage with you

jonnybigwallet · 12-03-2019 10:16pm

Good suggestion.

jonnybigwallet · 12-03-2019 10:16pm

Good suggestion.

Leonidas BL · 13-03-2019 1:45am

Nigel Dodds wrote: »

Should it be established, the Irish Air Force should have:

44 F-35A multirole fighter jets, 40 for operational use and 4 as conversion trainers.
4 P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft in addition to the 2 CASA aircraft.
6 Atlas C-1 and 6 C-17 transport aircraft.
8 Apache gunships, 56 Chinooks.
2 MQ-9 Reaper drones.
2 Airbus Voyager and 2 Learjet 45 aircraft as government jets.

That's probably more money than exists in this country lol

sparky42 · 13-03-2019 3:48am

Nigel Dodds wrote: »

It is achievable.

It's non-sensible.

jonnybigwallet · 13-03-2019 10:09am

It's a little over ambitious. I would suggest 8 Scorpion light attack aircraft or the Aeromacchi equivalent. 12 Gripens. 2 of them new Embraer military transports for troops and a Phenome jet for VIP use. Some lighter attack helicopters which could operate off ships would be handy as well.

Captain Chaos · 13-03-2019 10:16am

Nigel Dodds wrote: »

Should it be established, the Irish Air Force should have:

44 F-35A multirole fighter jets, 40 for operational use and 4 as conversion trainers.
4 P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft in addition to the 2 CASA aircraft.
6 Atlas C-1 and 6 C-17 transport aircraft.
8 Apache gunships, 56 Chinooks.
2 MQ-9 Reaper drones.
2 Airbus Voyager and 2 Learjet 45 aircraft as government jets.

That would be a better airforce than what most EU countries have lol.:D

Heraldoffreeent · 13-03-2019 8:56pm

Nigel Dodds wrote: »

Should it be established, the Irish Air Force should have:

44 F-35A multirole fighter jets, 40 for operational use and 4 as conversion trainers.
4 P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft in addition to the 2 CASA aircraft.
6 Atlas C-1 and 6 C-17 transport aircraft.
8 Apache gunships, 56 Chinooks.
2 MQ-9 Reaper drones.
2 Airbus Voyager and 2 Learjet 45 aircraft as government jets.

You're gettin' bored a' th'ould' Brexit Nige?

Heraldoffreeent · 13-03-2019 8:58pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

It's a little over ambitious. I would suggest 8 Scorpion light attack aircraft or the Aeromacchi equivalent. 12 Gripens. 2 of them new Embraer military transports for troops and a Phenome jet for VIP use. Some lighter attack helicopters which could operate off ships would be handy as well.

For once, Johnny makes a little more sense than another poster on the thread.

Its true that the longer you live, you will see everything.

Markcheese · 14-03-2019 2:22pm

Careless of me I know, but who is it we're planning on invading...?

ohnonotgmail · 14-03-2019 2:24pm

Nigel Dodds wrote: »

What the Irish Navy needs is:

12 patrol vessels.
8 frigates.
2 guided missile destroyers.
2 submarines.
Establishment of an Irish Marine Corps.

nuclear or diesel-electric?

sparky42 · 14-03-2019 4:10pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Careless of me I know, but who is it we're planning on invading...?

Waiting for Jonny to come in about Rockall...:P

sparky42 · 14-03-2019 4:11pm

Nigel Dodds wrote: »

What the Irish Navy needs is:

12 patrol vessels.
8 frigates.
2 guided missile destroyers.
2 submarines.
Establishment of an Irish Marine Corps.

Ah, what? Like seriously what?

Heraldoffreeent · 14-03-2019 7:51pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Careless of me I know, but who is it we're planning on invading...?

With that fleet, I'd fancy our chances against the Russians, problem is that it would take all 4.8 million of us to occupy them, and who would keep the lights on back here?

sparky42 · 14-03-2019 9:29pm

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

With that fleet, I'd fancy our chances against the Russians, problem is that it would take all 4.8 million of us to occupy them, and who would keep the lights on back here?

Ah but its cold up there, couldn't we pick a nice sunny island chain to conquer just for a national holiday destination?

skooterblue2 · 14-03-2019 9:36pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

nuclear or diesel-electric?

Solar Duh!!! We can get Duncan Stuart to install solar panels on them, it would be great for the environment.

Psychlops · 14-03-2019 11:15pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

It's a little over ambitious. I would suggest 8 Scorpion light attack aircraft or the Aeromacchi equivalent. 12 Gripens. 2 of them new Embraer military transports for troops and a Phenome jet for VIP use. Some lighter attack helicopters which could operate off ships would be handy as well.

Why the scorpion? Its unproven, nice looking jet but why exactly? Why the new Embraer KC-390, also unproven, are you picking it because it was shown to the IAC? Also, who are we going to get to fly them? The AC is losing pilots quicker than getting them. DF as a whole has a huge manpower shortage.

sparky42 · 14-03-2019 11:28pm

Psychlops wrote: »

Why the scorpion? Its unproven, nice looking jet but why exactly? Why the new Embraer KC-390, also unproven, are you picking it because it was shown to the IAC? Also, who are we going to get to fly them? The AC is losing pilots quicker than getting them. DF as a whole has a huge manpower shortage.

There seems to always be an issue with the AC particularly for looking at "flashy new ****e" no matter whether it makes sense or not. I'd stick with airframes that are in more widespread use particularly look at those nations that we might be serving with (ie European designs). As to the manpower issue without question that's the huge outstanding issue.

prinzeugen · 15-03-2019 3:07am

Nigel Dodds wrote: »

Should it be established, the Irish Air Force should have:

44 F-35A multirole fighter jets, 40 for operational use and 4 as conversion trainers.
4 P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft in addition to the 2 CASA aircraft.
6 Atlas C-1 and 6 C-17 transport aircraft.
8 Apache gunships, 56 Chinooks.
2 MQ-9 Reaper drones.
2 Airbus Voyager and 2 Learjet 45 aircraft as government jets.

44 x F35A?? Lol! 10 x F16 are more realistic.

Ireland does not need the F35. 44 airframes in service at any point is what the RAF are looking at over the 40+ year timeframe of the aircraft.

sparky42 · 15-03-2019 5:14pm

Nigel Dodds wrote: »

20 F-35s for operations and 4 for traing. Would that be more realistic?

Subs would be diesel-electric BTW.

No, there's zero need for us to have a 5th gen fighter, particularly when we go from nothing to Jets. The Gripens would most likely be the utter high point.

Honestly none of the suggestions are realistic or sensible, even if we were going to increase defence spending even back to 90's level (1%).

Psychlops · 15-03-2019 10:31pm

At best we could hope to see is Hawk T2's, they are plumbed for AAM's.

Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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