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Name a Good Irish Recording

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    #122
    krd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    I'm not sure what I've said that makes you think I disagree with any of this?

    I don't!

    I agree 100% with all of this!

    My main explanation of how musicians get success is this:

    A businessman hears your music and it sounds like money.

    My WHOLE plan is to get them to come to me (and they are).

    I'm just not biting yet, because if I do I've undersold my ****. Never sign a deal unless you've got at least 4-5 offers.... better yet, wait for 10.

    That's my belief... and my plan.

    Well, hope you stick your plan, and remember the money men are never going to make the music for you, or make it great music through their money.

    Do you have a link where I can download you're stuff you've already put up?

    I can't do I-tunes or anything like that - the credit card company have taken away my card - and I didn't have an I-tunes account to start with.


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    #123
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    krd wrote: »
    I would actually like to Paul defend himself.

    Is Paul Brewer the godfather of generic Irish indie?


    He may say no.


    But if brought before a court - something like the Nurembourg trials - would he be able to say in all conciousness he was not responsible - that he was only following orders, and fixing the eq etc - he couldn't have stopped even if he had wanted to. Do you think the Brewer defence would fly in an international court of music lovers.

    Paul, how many sessions have you sat in upon where you could have said stop, but you didn't?


    Thank god, I only make music, badly, for my own pleasure. If I depended on it for a living I'd be in the dock with Paul. (Maybe they'd cut me a plea bargain - if I'd turned the big fish in)

    But seriously -

    That's a crazy suggestion, however hypothetical and, in many ways, by the asking shows the common weakness in bands - namely ..... it's the bands responsibility how they sound, not the engineers or producers - they do what they do, that's why you hire them !


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    #124
    Rockshamrover
    Registered Users Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭Rockshamrover


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    Well I've recorded very little rock really ....

    I may well be The God of Country and Irish though. ;)

    Give the people what they want.


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    #125
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    krd wrote: »
    Well, hope you stick your plan, and remember the money men are never going to make the music for you, or make it great music through their money.

    Do you have a link where I can download you're stuff you've already put up?

    I can't do I-tunes or anything like that - the credit card company have taken away my card - and I didn't have an I-tunes account to start with.

    Hey man I sent you a PM, but wanted to publicly say thanks for your interest in my band!


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    #126
    i57dwun4yb1pt8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭i57dwun4yb1pt8


    jtsuited wrote: »
    telepaul, i think a MAJOR thing you are forgetting is that the vast majority of the public (nevermind the music-buying public) are fcukin idiots.

    The records that sell the most are those that have the BROADEST appeal. Simple maths really. Of course you end up with 'broad' art which is by definition 'lowest common denominator'.
    Now that's not saying that it's automatically rubbish. some of the greatest music works on a universal level and is accessible by idiots and intellectuals alike.
    But you get the point.

    Here's a thought....Charlie Sheen is the highest paid TV actor in the world right now. Depressing huh?


    not all of em .
    at least not anyone under 30 ,
    but they are being trained to be

    everything around us is being dumbed down ,
    easier to control,and make consume - the stupid and those of low expectation

    its as plain as the nose on your face that everything is being turned down a notch intellectually in the western world.


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    #127
    Aridstarling
    Closed Accounts Posts: 650 ✭✭✭Aridstarling


    TelePaul wrote: »
    That's my point. They wouldn't have sold millions of records - ergo, I wouldn't have heard of them - if they weren't good enough to warrant label interest, sales, an established fan base paying to see them play, and, par consequence, heavy radio rotation.

    Maybe you should say not commercial enough to warrant major label interest. That would probably be far more accurate. For the record I know Adebisi Shank have sold out all the copies of their first album. Many more I named would be in similar positions.

    Nobody said 'failure'. I havn't bought a U2 CD in the last fifteen years, I don't like their music, but I'm extremely aware of them on account of their massive radio rotation, sell out shows and the hype that goes with them. The bands you've listed, by contrast, have sold comparatively few albums, have had comparatively little radio play and have yet to sell out Croke Park. It doesn't mean they wont, it just shows that their product has not been deemed viable enough to warrant this kind of attention just yet. Probably because people like me aren't buying their albums.

    But what if it's not meant to warrant that kind of attention? What if they would rather concentrate on making music they love as opposed to music others love? How do you expect a band who release 500 copies of their album to sell out Croke Park? Take for instance Enemies, who have just released their first record. They have played sold out tours in Japan and just the other week packed out Whelans for their album launch. That counts as success in my books.

    I think you're taking this the wrong way. But the music industry is just that, an industry. I'm sorry if you're pissed off, maybe you're in the music business and are trying to make a go of it. I work for a company. We make products. If nobody likes our products, they wont sell, we don't get paid, I don't eat. Why should the music industry be any different? If I'm gonna shell out twenty bills for your music, you're going to have to impress me - why should it be any other way?

    The music industry is something built up around the music though, not the other way around. I know it sounds naive to say but it is genuinely about the art of it. Anything else is a compromise and really, why compromise the one thing you get to do in life that doesn't require it? My point is you would be impressed if you listened to the bands in question, the vast majority of music lovers would be, but you aren't interested in giving them a chance because they haven't broken into mainstream consciousness. Which seems like utter madness to me.

    Philip Glass played in Dublin tonight, would you dismiss him out of hand because he doesn't get hours of radioplay and isn't playing Croke Park? The same logic applies to the bands I'm talking about here.


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    #128
    krd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    But seriously -

    That's a crazy suggestion, however hypothetical and, in many ways, by the asking shows the common weakness in bands - namely ..... it's the bands responsibility how they sound, not the engineers or producers - they do what they do, that's why you hire them !

    Only joking Paul. But it has got to the point of comedy, where there are literally hundreds of well engineered Irish indie albums being produced every year - that no one wants to listen to.

    There's a whole industry now based around making these recordings. I'm not knocking it, as it gives people work. But it's not producing music anyone really wants to hear. It's not producing great art either. Generic Whelan's sound indie jangle is not great art.

    Bands and producers are going about it the wrong way. Bands are paying for the recordings - so the production is being geared towards turning out what the band thinks they need - which is an album for the sake of an album.

    The more common approach in the past: The record company pays the producer to produce something that will get played on the radio, or will be popular with a particular group of people - not necessarily to compete with Lady Ga Ga, there are lots of different audiences. Ultimately, the producer ends up working for the people, not the band. It doesn't always work - but if a producer's bread and butter is making music that other people will want to listen to - even if it's a really small group of people, the approach is very different. They can't afford to make generic uninteresting music. They can't afford to walk away from a recording knowing there's a few little things wrong with it, that are killing it - or that it doesn't have enough life in it.

    Band are wasting their time making albums - their focus should be to make one or two songs that stand head shoulders above everything else about.

    My approach to a producer would be, not can you record our album of generic indie and make the recording quality very high, but can you help us make a song or whatever that is going to achieve something - like getting radio plays on some DJs show - or something memorable that will get gigs - or be infectious enough to get attention. It's a different approach - I've heard albums of Irish bands - that if only they would have concentrated all their energies into one or two songs they may have made an impact.

    It's not a case that every producer can work with every band, but I'm sure a producer can see the potential in a song or something, and can or can't turn it into something. And glorious failures have their place. An interesting recording will find a place somewhere.

    Something like - Generic indie band approaches producer. Producer hears their set, a few of their songs. It's all generic Indie. Producer hears one song they think they can do something with. Drops out bits and pieces here and there, focuses on bits like bass riffs - drum riff - rips off bits and piece from songs they like - gets the singer to put more into the song. Then if everything goes to plan, the song can be transformed from generic Indie into something like Franz Ferdinand's Take Me Out - Which is basically a generic Indie song with loads of gimmicks.

    Bell X1's Flame is full of gimmicks as well.

    Gimmicks work in pop music.

    Paul next time you're doing a Country and Western track - throw in a whip crack in the intro. It will be as cheesy as hell - it will make you cringe - but it will work. There was a big country hit in the US a few years back - a song about a dog - what I think made the record and gave it its' appeal was the samples of dogs barking and howling. Cheesy enough to make your eyes water - but it would have been a forgettable generic country song otherwise. It's a country song I wish I could forget.


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    #129
    novarock
    Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭novarock


    I agree with krd to a point, but your talking about writing songs for a band, if they cant write the hooks, whats the point at all? Our stuff was produced in the sense that we were asked to change tempo's, put in an extra chorus here, a violin would sound great here etc.. but the bare bones of the song never really changed.


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    #130
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    :eek:
    krd wrote: »

    Paul next time you're doing a Country and Western track .

    I haven't made a C+W Album in about 12 years now ..... but I may have to get into the saddle again if this recession doesn't blow over soon !

    I agree with your point about 'The Album' though ..... most bands want to make one, very few know why.

    I know of two local guys/bands here who have spent a phenomenal amount of time energy and money on projects that every molecule in my being tells me are destined for Grand Ma's CD player and nowhere else.

    One guy has been 'making the album' since I met him when he was 18 .... 14 years ago.:(

    Another guy has an Album recorded (with a name producer!) and all the songs are about a girl he broke up with 5+ years ago ....

    I'm wincing thinking about it all ...


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    #131
    TelePaul
    Registered Users Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    Aridstarling wrote: »
    Maybe you should say not commercial enough to warrant major label interest. That would probably be far more accurate.

    No, I stand by what I've said. Some 'niche' acts have done extremely very well out of big labels.
    Aridstarling wrote: »
    But what if it's not meant to warrant that kind of attention? What if they would rather concentrate on making music they love as opposed to music others love?

    That's fine. I make music I love too. I just don't expect to get paid for it. If you can make a living doing something you love, then go for it, you're extremely lucky.
    Aridstarling wrote: »
    The music industry is something built up around the music though, not the other way around. I know it sounds naive to say but it is genuinely about the art of it.

    There have been dozens of examples in this thread alone detailing how the music industry is not necessarily built around the music - Jedward being the most prominent example. And like I said before, if it was really 'about the music, man', people wouldn't try to earn a living from it. Do you think Monet or Renoir cared whether their paintings sold?
    Aridstarling wrote: »
    Anything else is a compromise and really, why compromise the one thing you get to do in life that doesn't require it?

    We may be at crossed purposes here. Art for the sake of art shouldn't involve a compromise. I love the music I play, and I couldn't care what anyone thinks of it. But I don't have to take it to market, and that's a huge luxury.

    Aridstarling wrote: »
    My point is you would be impressed if you listened to the bands in question, the vast majority of music lovers would be, but you aren't interested in giving them a chance because they haven't broken into mainstream consciousness.

    I really doubt I'd like the music in question. My tastes are varied and hard to quantify. Much of the Irish indie scene has left me, well, cold. Probably because alot of acts and their material sounds so similar. For instance, I heard 'Pinball Machine' by Bell X1 ten years ago. I thought it was a very average song. Five years later, everyone was listening to Bell X1 - but I still found them distinctly average. Of course they've done extremely well for themselves in the US, they've appeared on Letterman, Conan O'Brien, they've had a ton of airplay...which really shows how irrelevant the views of one person are. Actually, maybe it's me that's missing something...maybe I'll give them another shot.


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    #132
    TelePaul
    Registered Users Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    PaulBrewer wrote: »

    I haven't made a C+W Album in about 12 years now ..... but I may have to get into the saddle again if this recession doesn't blow over soon !

    Ireland needs an alt-country star.


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    #133
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    TelePaul wrote: »
    Ireland needs an alt-country star.

    You know I'm from Arkansas.

    I even have a country song... well, it's got joke lyrics, but it's a hit with me friends...

    Now if only I liked any country music made after 1965 we'd be all set.


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    #134
    TelePaul
    Registered Users Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    You know I'm from Arkansas.

    I even have a country song... well, it's got joke lyrics, but it's a hit with me friends...

    Now if only I liked any country music made after 1965 we'd be all set.

    Joke lyrics are essential!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAOVRkSCWmg


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    #135
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    novarock wrote: »
    I agree with krd to a point, but your talking about writing songs for a band, if they cant write the hooks, whats the point at all? Our stuff was produced in the sense that we were asked to change tempo's, put in an extra chorus here, a violin would sound great here etc.. but the bare bones of the song never really changed.

    My attitude is kinda different/kinda the same...

    Find people that understand what you're going for and let them loose... not that I have NO say, believe me, I do, but if you don't trust the people you're working with, you're working with the wrong people.

    I guess, as long as you trust that they are on the same musical wavelength (<- look at the hippy), in the most simple sense, that they "get your genre," AND as long as they have the same commercial understanding of the "purpose" of a track, which one is a single, which ones are there to help define your sound, etc., then why NOT let them add stuff, change arrangements, etc.?

    The point is to allow your songs to become what they are, at their core... don't defend you're own writing for NO REASON.

    I actually LOVE LOVE LOVE working with people that have strong ideas and opinions... I DEMAND that these people add their own passions into the tracks, as long as the integrity of the tune/hooks/etc is maintained... well, let's just make the best damn song/recording we can!

    I think WAAAAAAY to many bands have this misguided idea that producers are like drummers (no offence, it's an analogy folks). What I mean is, songwriters tend to work with musicians who's endless "ideas" slow them down and don't add a lot.

    The producers I know have the opposite affect.

    In fact, I hope to always be working with producers. As long as I'm making music... and one day, when I'm a shrivelled husk, maybe I'll help others by being one.

    Sorry, to wax on, but I've having a good day.


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    #136
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    TelePaul wrote: »
    Joke lyrics are essential!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAOVRkSCWmg

    [I hadn't heard that in YEARS!]


    One day, I'll buy some whiskey and demo it for you!

    ;)


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    #137
    i57dwun4yb1pt8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭i57dwun4yb1pt8


    im going to throw in Emotional Fish -

    that album with Celebrate , Grey Matter , etc on it .

    I thought that was a damn fine record , recording and tune wise.


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    #138
    krd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    DaDumTish wrote: »
    im going to throw in Emotional Fish -

    that album with Celebrate , Grey Matter , etc on it .

    I thought that was a damn fine record , recording and tune wise.

    I actually really loved that album - I had it on tape for years - then lost the tape.

    I could never get over how simple the guitar playing was, but how great it sounded. Their rhythm section had a real character to it. I've forgotten nearly everything else but I can remember how the guy played the hi-hats.

    I didn't like anything they ever did after that. I've met people who've known them over the years - they all said Gerry slipped on a wet patch and disappeared up his own hole. There was something off with the stuff they did with Dave Stewart - it sounds weird to me - like the drums are lagging or something.


    Another record - The 4ofUS's first album - I met a 19 year-old kid, a while back - he's probably 21 now - he told me it was one of his favourite records of all time - I think he found the tape in his mothers car. There's real emotion in whatshisface's singing. The songs really leave an impact on you.

    But like the Fish - they lost the plot.


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    #139
    krd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    :eek:

    I haven't made a C+W Album in about 12 years now ..... but I may have to get into the saddle again if this recession doesn't blow over soon !

    Dust off your cowboy hat Paul. This recession is not going to roll out of town like some tumbleweed.
    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    :eek:

    Another guy has an Album recorded (with a name producer!) and all the songs are about a girl he broke up with 5+ years ago ....

    I'm wincing thinking about it all ...

    Dolores Riordans best songs were from her ill-fated relationship with the drummer or bass player. Can't remember which. She eventually got over him. Same with Boy George. All his big songs were about his drummer. Every day is like survival.

    Trent Resnor's Pretty Hate Machine and the Downward Spiral are inspired by his break up with his Ex. It's really funny - he broke up with his Ex just before doing Pretty Hate Machine - and when it was a success, he thought he'd get back with her. Then he heard her current boyfriend had got her pregnant and they were about to get happily married -- which sent him on a downward spiral.

    **** it, it is a little creepy and obsessed - but if it inspires great songs.

    You picked a fine time to leave me, Lucille.

    Resnor made two great country albums - Ok, they were electronic, but essentially they're country albums - like Star Wars is actually a cowboy film pretending to be a science fiction.


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    #140
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    krd wrote: »
    Dust off your cowboy hat Paul. This recession is not going to roll out of town like some tumbleweed.



    Dolores Riordans best songs were from her ill-fated relationship with the drummer or bass player. Can't remember which. She eventually got over him. Same with Boy George. All his big songs were about his drummer. Every day is like survival.

    Trent Resnor's Pretty Hate Machine and the Downward Spiral are inspired by his break up with his Ex. It's really funny - he broke up with his Ex just before doing Pretty Hate Machine - and when it was a success, he thought he'd get back with her. Then he heard her current boyfriend had got her pregnant and they were about to get happily married -- which sent him on a downward spiral.

    **** it, it is a little creepy and obsessed - but if it inspires great songs.

    You picked a fine time to leave me, Lucille.

    Resnor made two great country albums - Ok, they were electronic, but essentially they're country albums - like Star Wars is actually a cowboy film pretending to be a science fiction.

    I've heard from a few different songs on TDS were about reznors dead dog... Which jumped off the top of a tour bus or something???

    Your ver makes more sense, but it's not as funny.

    Mine is also def more country.


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    #141
    i57dwun4yb1pt8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭i57dwun4yb1pt8


    no, Dolores songs were about another musician she lived with , who was not in the band - I used to drum for an act in limerick and stayed at the lead singers place - this was apparently the same flat Dolores had shared with this guy, and various letters between them were left behind - which this old lead singer of mine still has far as i know.

    also before i moved to dublin i used to drum in other bands in Limerick
    I remember the cranberries ( the were called The Cranberry Sawus - formed by Niall - the drummer of The Hitchers ) before Dolores joined , and met them once rehearsing in Xeric studios after she joined ,( after Niall left ) about late 1990 far as i rem .
    sounded great even in those early days .


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    #142
    bedbugs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭bedbugs


    Stephen Shannon has produced some great sounding albums in the past few years. Most recently, Adrian Crowley's Choice Prize winner.

    Also, Miriam Ingram's "Trampoline" was a fantastic sounding record and really pushed boundaries. that was recorded by a few Irish folk -Dave Odlum, Joe Chester etc.


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    #143
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    bedbugs wrote: »
    Stephen Shannon has produced some great sounding albums in the past few years. Most recently, Adrian Crowley's Choice Prize winner.

    Also, Miriam Ingram's "Trampoline" was a fantastic sounding record and really pushed boundaries. that was recorded by a few Irish folk -Dave Odlum, Joe Chester etc.

    That also features Graham Hopkins, who I first conciously heard on that Jape record, which is also pretty awesome really.


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    #144
    bedbugs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭bedbugs


    He's an awesome drummer.

    And Trevor Hutchinson plays some double bass on it -noice.


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    #145
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    Heartworm by the Whippers. 15 years old at this stage...


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    #146
    Rockshamrover
    Registered Users Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭Rockshamrover


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    I've heard from a few different songs on TDS were about reznors dead dog... Which jumped off the top of a tour bus or something???

    Your ver makes more sense, but it's not as funny.

    Mine is also def more country.

    Most of the songs we connect with come from a shared emotion or feeling.
    If the performer doesn't feel it the audience definitely wont.

    There's the song, the listener and the bit in the middle that connects them.

    The bit in the middle is where it's at;)


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    #147
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    studiorat wrote: »
    Heartworm by the Whippers. 15 years old at this stage...

    +1


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    #148
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    krd wrote: »
    but if it inspires great songs.

    This is more 'Moon in June' stuff ...


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    #149
    bedbugs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭bedbugs


    studiorat wrote: »
    Heartworm by the Whippers. 15 years old at this stage...

    It's good, but I really thought they lost a lot of the energy they had on Submarine and the I Think I Miss You ep. While I still like Heartworm, I can't help but feel that signing to a major was a mistake for them and quite possibly the beginning of the end.

    I had a demo of Twinkle and Tripped years ago which IMO were MILES better than the final strings-laden product.


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    #150
    krd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    This is more 'Moon in June' stuff ...

    Then again it can inspire some pretty awful songs.

    Why doesn't he just spend a weekend writing the definitive stalker album? We'll all think it's incredibly entertaining - she'll flee the country and change her name. Art has a price - it doesn't necessarily say on the price tag who's going to have to pay that price, but there you go.


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    #151
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    bedbugs wrote: »
    It's good, but I really thought they lost a lot of the energy they had on Submarine and the I Think I Miss You ep. While I still like Heartworm, I can't help but feel that signing to a major was a mistake for them and quite possibly the beginning of the end.

    I had a demo of Twinkle and Tripped years ago which IMO were MILES better than the final strings-laden product.

    I worked as a lowly assistant on some of the Submarine demos and the EP as well as the Sony demos for what became heartworm. I guess the ones you were talking about could have been some of those. As well as the line about JJ Smyths "where the punks did play when the Jazzmen had their day." My abiding memory of them was that they were really nice fellas.

    With Columbia I suppose it was the old story, the record company staff change and the new staff just don't get it...


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