Project bike

magicbastarder · 06-09-2020 6:37pm

also, lest anyone is in aldi, this is €2.90 a bottle. bought it to soak some of the components (they're too grubby to assess as it is), don't know yet if it's any cop:

Blanchy90 · 06-09-2020 7:04pm

Great to see more people restoring old bikes

Here's a pic of the crack under the bottom bracket, do you think it would be ok to just leave it?

I still haven't started back working on the bike but I've been out for a good few spins on my new Kelly's road bike and I'm loving it

hesker · 06-09-2020 8:03pm

Drill a hole where it ends near the middle of the bb. That will stop it moving further. I wouldn’t bother plugging the hole. Let it act as a drain point

But it might be worth getting a frame builders opinion. Every time you stand on the crank you will be stressing that crack as it’s gone out to the edge.

cletus · 06-09-2020 9:12pm

@blanchy: the biggest problem you have with repairing that crack is the location. Even a good Tig welder will have difficulty not warping the BB sue to heat, so you could be looking at redrilling, facing and retapping. As it's a steel frame, perhaps a medium term solution would be to drill the hole as hesjer has suggested, and then use some steel putty or similar to fill the crack

@magicbastarder: dunno where your based, but I'm working in Naas, so if you're anywhere near, I have any of the tools you need for pulling those cranks

magicbastarder · 06-09-2020 10:13pm

cheers, i'm in dublin so might be a bit of a trek. there's at least one other boardsie near me who *might* have tools.

that aldi degreaser did an absolutely fine job, btw.
brakes look well serviceable too:

CoBo55 · 06-09-2020 10:35pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

where i am currently with mine; was around the folks, got sorted for the socket wrench there and now need a crank puller.
may bring it around to the LBS; i want to pull the cranks, take out the BB and knock out the headset cups. they'd be able to do all that in five minutes where i'd be trying to bodge something together for a couple of hours.

the worst the rust had been here:

note the nut welded to the right tine. also i've not thought fasr enough ahead about what's involved with removing the chrome (or if it's necessary).

A long screwdriver should be able to tap out the headstock bearing cups. Don't touch the cranks without the proper extractor or it'll end in tears.

magicbastarder · 06-09-2020 10:56pm

That crankset is shagged anyway. There's damage to two teeth on the middle chainring, looks like a chap stamped steel type. I can't imagine I'll be keeping it, it's definitely not original to the bike.

Blanchy90 · 07-09-2020 9:50am

Thanks I'll drill a small hole at the end of the crack to stop it going any further

magicbastarder · 08-09-2020 6:27pm

i'd been hoping to keep the rear wheel intact - a weinmann rim on a pelissier (never heard of them) hub, but:

i don't think drilling a hole at the end of the crack is the tactic that will work here.
the front wheel is an unbranded (though i haven't taken off the tyre yet) rim with too much wear on the braking surface, on a maillard hub.

and i borrowed a crank puller (thanks Weepsie!) and promptly stripped the threads on the drive side.

cletus · 08-09-2020 6:55pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'd been hoping to keep the rear wheel intact - a weinmann rim on a pelissier (never heard of them) hub, but:

i don't think drilling a hole at the end of the crack is the tactic that will work here.
the front wheel is an unbranded (though i haven't taken off the tyre yet) rim with too much wear on the braking surface, on a maillard hub.

and i borrowed a crank puller (thanks Weepsie!) and promptly stripped the threads on the drive side.

That rim looks fubar.

Re pulling the crank, with the threads stripped, your best bet is heat and a bearing puller

magicbastarder · 08-09-2020 7:02pm

Ah yeah, it's scrap. It has a future as drinks cans.

Weepsie · 08-09-2020 8:23pm

Was it the fault of my crank puller?

iwillhtfu · 08-09-2020 8:36pm

Weepsie wrote: »

Was it the fault of my crank puller?

I'd imagine it was a case of round peg square hole. You need an adaptor to go through the square hole and hit the spindle. I usually use a 6 mm nut and bolt with some grease to hold it in place as it's blind once you put the crank puller on.

If you don't have the adaptor your hit the cranks and it's pulling against itself which ends up stripping the threads out.

magicbastarder · 08-09-2020 8:50pm

Weepsie wrote: »

Was it the fault of my crank puller?

no, i'd say it was a badly adjusted wheel - there was already a spoke broken on it.

magicbastarder · 08-09-2020 9:03pm

iwillhtfu wrote: »

If you don't have the adaptor your hit the cranks and it's pulling against itself which ends up stripping the threads out.

the push rod (for want of a better word) on both tools weepsie lent me fit through the hole in the crank. but the damn things are welded on. thankfully, i didn't strip the threads as completely as i expected, so i'll have another go in the morning. have squirted in some penetrating oil.

8valve · 08-09-2020 9:28pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'd been hoping to keep the rear wheel intact - a weinmann rim on a pelissier (never heard of them) hub, but:

i don't think drilling a hole at the end of the crack is the tactic that will work here.
the front wheel is an unbranded (though i haven't taken off the tyre yet) rim with too much wear on the braking surface, on a maillard hub.

and i borrowed a crank puller (thanks Weepsie!) and promptly stripped the threads on the drive side.

I think the technical term for that is ''f****d''....!

I might have some usable wheels in the spare parts pile that will suit.

8valve · 08-09-2020 9:30pm

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I'd imagine it was a case of round peg square hole. You need an adaptor to go through the square hole and hit the spindle. I usually use a 6 mm nut and bolt with some grease to hold it in place as it's blind once you put the crank puller on.

If you don't have the adaptor your hit the cranks and it's pulling against itself which ends up stripping the threads out.

An old school trick is to use a ball bearing small enough to fit into the square hole of the crank but big enough that it can't be driven into the threaded hole in the bb spindle by the force exerted by the crank puller. Less likely to crush as the head of a bolt might.

8valve · 08-09-2020 9:33pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

the push rod (for want of a better word) on both tools weepsie lent me fit through the hole in the crank. but the damn things are welded on. thankfully, i didn't strip the threads as completely as i expected, so i'll have another go in the morning. have squirted in some penetrating oil.

Use a heat gun on the crank arm before removal; the alloy will expand more than the hardened steel of the bb spindle.

Hairdryer at its highest setting can also work, provided you don't get caught!

Alternatively pour boilng water on the crank but avoid getting it on the steel spindle...or your leg (speaking from experience lol)

cletus · 08-09-2020 9:39pm

If it's a steel spindle and aluminium crank, you've more than likely got galvanic corrosion.

I'd put money on heat being your best friend here

magicbastarder · 08-09-2020 9:41pm

i was actually about to head back out to have a go of it with the heat gun, would you believe. i also have a bog standard gas torch should i need it.

cletus wrote: »

If it's a steel spindle and aluminium crank, you've more than likely got galvanic corrosion.

certainly looks like it.

regarding the hubs, cos i want to reuse as much of the bike as possible (bar the horrible chainwheel); is it a stupid idea to buy 36 spoke rims and try to lace them onto the old hub(s) myself? i guess everyone had to start at some time...

magicbastarder · 08-09-2020 9:43pm

8valve wrote: »

I might have some usable wheels in the spare parts pile that will suit.

just spotted this now - that's very generous!

magicbastarder · 08-09-2020 10:19pm

well, brute force and ignorance won in the end; though i reckon i discovered i'd been making a rookie mistake on my first attempt. i was not bracing the crank puller against itself, i was bracing it against the crank.

CoBo55 · 09-09-2020 9:17am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was actually about to head back out to have a go of it with the heat gun, would you believe. i also have a bog standard gas torch should i need it.

certainly looks like it.

regarding the hubs, cos i want to reuse as much of the bike as possible (bar the horrible chainwheel); is it a stupid idea to buy 36 spoke rims and try to lace them onto the old hub(s) myself? i guess everyone had to start at some time...

Absolutely no way I'd recommend this, been there and ended up in a mess of spokes, nipples, hub, rim and tears!! I felt like Gubnet O Lunacy... I brought the whole sorry mess to Terry in Wexford, yes he did laugh at the Scalder trying to be a wheel builder...

cletus · 09-09-2020 9:21am

I'd be of the opposite opinion of CoBo55 above. Give it a shot. The very worst that could happen is you wont succeed, but you'll almost definitely learn something from it

CoBo55 · 09-09-2020 9:24am

magicbastarder wrote: »

well, brute force and ignorance won in the end; though i reckon i discovered i'd been making a rookie mistake on my first attempt. i was not bracing the crank puller against itself, i was bracing it against the crank.

A good penetrating oil is a must for a project like this. One in a can is much better than any spray. We had 3in1 penetrating and easing oil it was fantastic we never could get it again, Plus gas is very good too.

iwillhtfu · 09-09-2020 11:13am

cletus wrote: »

I'd be of the opposite opinion of CoBo55 above. Give it a shot. The very worst that could happen is you wont succeed, but you'll almost definitely learn something from it

I was the same until I gave it a shot.

It looks a hell of a lot easier when looking at videos but what a ball ache. I'd happily pay a wheel builder, I had whip lash going back and forth to videos. I'd say if you did it regularly it would a piece of piss but for a one off wheelset I'd happily pass.

magicbastarder · 09-09-2020 11:20am

you mean looking backwards and forwards to get the lacing pattern right, before tightening everything up?

iwillhtfu · 09-09-2020 11:28am

magicbastarder wrote: »

you mean looking backwards and forwards to get the lacing pattern right, before tightening everything up?

Yup just following the video I can't recall which one, I always seemed to need a third fourth and fifth hand and then when you have a kind of circular looking thing is when the real fun begins. It's not difficult just really tedious.

If you had a proper wheel stand,dishing and spoke tensioning gauge it would probably be easier. I jerry rigged the whole lot.

CoBo55 · 09-09-2020 12:26pm

cletus wrote: »

I'd be of the opposite opinion of CoBo55 above. Give it a shot. The very worst that could happen is you wont succeed, but you'll almost definitely learn something from it

Always work within your abilities...

cletus · 09-09-2020 1:03pm

CoBo55 wrote: »

Always work within your abilities...

Jesus, if I did that I'd never give anything a go

Blanchy90 · 09-09-2020 4:15pm

CoBo55 wrote: »

Always work within your abilities...

If you don't test your abilities you'll never know what you can do.

8valve · 09-09-2020 6:55pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was actually about to head back out to have a go of it with the heat gun, would you believe. i also have a bog standard gas torch should i need it.

certainly looks like it.

regarding the hubs, cos i want to reuse as much of the bike as possible (bar the horrible chainwheel); is it a stupid idea to buy 36 spoke rims and try to lace them onto the old hub(s) myself? i guess everyone had to start at some time...

One method is to tape the new rim beside the old one and transfer the spokes one by one. Tension them all evenly to dish the wheel then, when all are attached to the new rim.

Worth a shot if you want to give it a go.

CoBo55 · 09-09-2020 11:21pm

Blanchy90 wrote: »

If you don't test your abilities you'll never know what you can do.

It was a joke, I should have put 10 smiley faces after it.... Your reply got you a thanks so that should make you happy:rolleyes:

CoBo55 · 09-09-2020 11:30pm

8valve wrote: »

One method is to tape the new rim beside the old one and transfer the spokes one by one. Tension them all evenly to dish the wheel then, when all are attached to the new rim.

Worth a shot if you want to give it a go.

Good luck with trying to open 30 year old spoke nipples, seriously Op, take up the kind offer from an earlier poster and get a pair of wheels from him. You'll have enough other problems without taking on a specialized area that will kill off your enthusiasm for the project.

8valve · 10-09-2020 8:35pm

CoBo55 wrote: »

Good luck with trying to open 30 year old spoke nipples, seriously Op, take up the kind offer from an earlier poster and get a pair of wheels from him. You'll have enough other problems without taking on a specialized area that will kill off your enthusiasm for the project.

I've gotten 50 year old nipples to move freely (oooooh matron!) with patience, perseverance, penetrating fluid and copious amounts of swearing

MB, I've a pair of wheels that should do the job; please confirm rear axle spacing, number of rear sprockets and whether she's 700c or 27 & 1/4.

FOC as you kindly collected and stored more hardship for me!

magicbastarder · 10-09-2020 8:42pm

i had completely forgotten that the dawes i found also had wheels!
a pair of mismatched rigidas. not sure if they'd be any use to you? i have to check the exact specs on the wheels.

and when you say getting the nipples to move, you mean they will be bonded to the rim?

cletus · 10-09-2020 10:04pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i had completely forgotten that the dawes i found also had wheels!
a pair of mismatched rigidas. not sure if they'd be any use to you? i have to check the exact specs on the wheels.

and when you say getting the nipples to move, you mean they will be bonded to the rim?

I'd imagine more likely bones to the spoke, but don't know for sure

magicbastarder · 10-09-2020 11:29pm

are nipples not easy to get hold of?
(this is the sort of thing i can get away with asking on the cycling forum)

i'd be cutting the spokes anyway, the rim is shot and i'd have no intention of reusing spokes which were old enough to consider nirvana as being 'for the young folk'.
if there was one thing i'd hope so salvage, it'd be the hub and the hub alone. and i've yet to inspect them.

cletus · 11-09-2020 7:04am

magicbastarder wrote: »

are nipples not easy to get hold of?
(this is the sort of thing i can get away with asking on the cycling forum)

i'd be cutting the spokes anyway, the rim is shot and i'd have no intention of reusing spokes which were old enough to consider nirvana as being 'for the young folk'.
if there was one thing i'd hope so salvage, it'd be the hub and the hub alone. and i've yet to inspect them.

I've never rebuilt a wheel (or built one for that matter), so this is all conjecture on my behalf, but the nipples bonding to the spokes might be an issue for removal, rather than reuse. I'm not sure that you can cut spokes under tension, the you'd need to back off all thin nipples first

Large bottle small glass · 11-09-2020 7:34am

magicbastarder wrote: »

are nipples not easy to get hold of?
(this is the sort of thing i can get away with asking on the cycling forum)

i'd be cutting the spokes anyway, the rim is shot and i'd have no intention of reusing spokes which were old enough to consider nirvana as being 'for the young folk'.
if there was one thing i'd hope so salvage, it'd be the hub and the hub alone. and i've yet to inspect them.

Before you dismantle the wheel I'd do the following
*check lacing pattern on both sides; probably 3 cross but check.
*measure a ds and a nds spoke
*figure out how to service that hub, that being serviceable is essential to your wheel project!
*measure rim erd

If you don't do the above you'll need very precise hub measurements and have to find a spoke calculator which allows you to determine the exact spoke you need for the rim you choose. All doable but you'll need to be accurate. Maybe check with website linked below

If you have all the above you can get identical replacement parts, spokes will be easy to get but searching for rim by erd will take a bit of time I would think.

Once you have all that and are happy you have right components you could giving building a go. Try and borrow the wheel stand, decent spoke key, tensiometer etc, you'll have enough to be doing without messing with bike frame, homemade jigs or whatever. You'll have a much better chance with good tools. The only DIY tool I have is a dishing tool my carpenter BIL made for me.

Before you do anything read Roger Musson's ebook, it's a brilliant book which take the mystery away from wheels and breaks down what you need to do. Brandt's book is great to, especially at explaining what a bike wheel actually is.

Take you time, walk away when you get frustrated and enjoy doing it.

The is a huge tread on bike radar forum I think where Malcolm Borg and an Italian wheelbuilder have made a lot of contributions over the years which might be worth checking out
Link to Italian man's website here
https://whosatthewheel.com/2017/11/12/the-bicycle-wheel-basic-dynamics/
Bikeradar thread here
https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/13020726/handbuilt-wheels-the-big-thread

If you don't get answers there yacf.co.uk also has at least two regular wheelbuilders who contribute a lot. @Brucey knows a lot about wheels and seems to answers a lot of technical questions (or used to its been a while since I was on there). He claims to have wheels with 80,000 miles and never broken a spoke or needed truing. He places a huge emphasis on stress relieving as do most builders I've read.

Nice high bar for ya:)

EDIT I just checked @Brucey is still posting. Count how many times he says stress relieve!
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=116714.0

magicbastarder · 11-09-2020 9:11am

cheers! that's useful - as you mention, whether the hubs are shot (as yet unknown) is potentially going to kill the idea dead.

CoBo55 · 11-09-2020 9:42am

Looks like this thread has become a wheel building tome, pity as I was enjoying it.

iwillhtfu · 11-09-2020 1:37pm

CoBo55 wrote: »

Looks like this thread has become a wheel building tome, pity as I was enjoying it.

Tough crowd in here.

It's just one aspect of a build and imo the most difficult to undetake.

magicbastarder · 12-09-2020 10:49pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

note the nut welded to the right tine. also i've not thought fasr enough ahead about what's involved with removing the chrome (or if it's necessary).

haven't started to tackle the fork yet - the chrome is way past the 'scrub it with some balled up tinfoil' approach - not sure how well trying to abrade it off would work?

iwillhtfu · 12-09-2020 10:52pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

haven't started to tackle the fork yet - the chrome is way past the 'scrub it with some balled up tinfoil' approach - not sure how well trying to abrade it off would work?

Did you try the tinfoil? I'm always amazed at how well it works.

I haven't used these guys but they seem to cover all bases if needed. http://www.wechrome.com/

magicbastarder · 12-09-2020 11:08pm

i haven't tried it yet - as you can see, the rust is coming through quite pronounced on the left tine and i'd assumed it was terminal for the chrome. will give it a shot in the morning though. also have a good supply of 0000 steel wool, is that something i should let near chrome?

iwillhtfu · 13-09-2020 8:26am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i haven't tried it yet - as you can see, the rust is coming through quite pronounced on the left tine and i'd assumed it was terminal for the chrome. will give it a shot in the morning though. also have a good supply of 0000 steel wool, is that something i should let near chrome?

I'd try the tinfoil first if that doesn't clear the rust the chrome is shot anyway and will need to be redone or painted. You might need to use a few balls of tinfoil but I'd say it'll clean up but the left leg does look pretty bad.

8valve · 13-09-2020 11:40am

tallaght powder coating do chrome finish powdercoat, which is quite presentable, but obviously not as durable as genuine chrome plating.

magicbastarder · 15-09-2020 9:27pm

got the non-drive side of the BB out with less fuss than expected, just waiting for some oil to penetrate the drive side before i tackle it. i would be very surprised if it's italian thread (given it's a british brand) but was just checking - the width of the non-drive side threads is just a shade under 35mm (i assume this is the dimension i should be measuring) which would confirm it's english. i think.

obviously i have visions of sweating over the frame trying to get the thing out by turning it the wrong way.

Type 17 · 15-09-2020 9:57pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

...the width of the non-drive side threads is just a shade under 35mm (i assume this is the dimension i should be measuring) which would confirm it's english...

English thread is 1.37" diameter which is about 34.8mm. Chances of a Reynolds 531 Falcon frame not being an English BB thread are miniscule.

Project bike

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