ASTI ballot

Icsics wrote: »

Yes but I would view the INTO along the same lines as TUI & it needs to be over 60% voting for strike for INTO. Still, good news but the crucial question is what next?!

Needs to be 67% of turnout for strike. Judging by feeling on the ground would say this highly unlikely...

Well done ASTI

What is the next step? Union officials meet and discuss....either get asti members to ballot on strike action or reballot members on pay or maybe stop doing croke park hours?

If there is no strike action what was the point in voting no? There will be no 2 year CIDs, no 1% rises or whatever rate is applicable and no increments. Or am I missing something?

All this talk of shame on the TUI....If the INTO and ASTI go out on strike and win the day then it’s correct. But until that happens it’s an insulting statement.

I think we all know there’ll be no strikes as the ASTI were badly burned last time and the INTO are well, the INTO. And sitting waving a rejection of a pay deal is nothing the government are worried about.

doc_17 wrote: »

All this talk of shame on the TUI....If the INTO and ASTI go out on strike and win the day then it’s correct. But until that happens it’s an insulting statement.

I think we all know there’ll be no strikes as the ASTI were badly burned last time and the INTO are well, the INTO. And sitting waving a rejection of a pay deal is nothing the government are worried about.

And the TUI are, well the TUI!!

The union who is always the first to cave into Govt demands and run scared at threats, the union who left ASTI out in the cold on many occasions. And worse, the union who poached dissident ASTI members during a dispute, a disgusting act of trade union betrayal.

So I wouldn't be getting up on my high horse if I were you!

doc_17 wrote: »

All this talk of shame on the TUI....If the INTO and ASTI go out on strike and win the day then it’s correct. But until that happens it’s an insulting statement.

What was insulting to LPTs was accepting that pay agreement having the top brass advocate a Yes vote on the sly.

ASTI have never accepted a pay agreement that did not have Equal Pay for Equal Work, and it's time that people realised that.

Genuinely hard to fathom why the TUI Executive Committee are so spineless and unprincipled. Their disconnect is fairly astounding now.

That they've been hoovering up new members at the expense of the ASTI, a majority of whose members maintain their principled opposition to these sham "reforms", will forever be a stain on that union's character and its leadership's integrity. A cynic might think the main goal of the TUI is to become the biggest secondary school teachers' union at any cost.

The TUI Executive Committee, and their flaccid membership, are the useful idiots for every Irish government's attempt to undermine the teaching profession. Divide and conquer only ever works if you can purchase one section. The TUI is, consistently, that section. Consistently. When they've spent their 30 pieces of silver, what then? Our conditions will be back to the conditions of Irish teachers decades ago, conditions which will be reduced further in the next recession (has anybody even thought that far ahead yet?). It is the terms and conditions of every teacher which have suffered, and will continue to suffer, from this pernicious cancer that is the existence of more than one secondary school teachers' union.

Most of all, the vast majority of these "reforms" are nothing of the sort. They remain a sham that's desperately in need of being exposed. Having attended a cluster day recently, the work rate they are expecting from teachers for this new JC is comical, so comical that it's all going to turn into a box ticking exercise (to state the blindingly obvious). Nobody is tackling how, and why, these "reforms" failed in England. In detail. Absolute silence. Not a single academic in any Irish university's Education department, or in the employment of the ASTI, has any research done on the model which our system is emulating.

doc_17 wrote: »

If the TUI’s executive committee are spineless then so are the ASTI’s A’s didn’t they put it out to ballot without a recommendation? And to hear them yesterday on the radio wouldn’t lead you to believe they’ll be leading you into battle anytime soon.

Also, there’s not much between the unions is there? 53-47 as opposed to 47-53?

Nothing will come of the ASTI and INTO rejections unless they go out and all out and stay out.

While ye sit back on yer arses like ye do every time, yet still pocket any gains. Is that what you mean???

doc_17 wrote: »

See, I voted to reject the deal. But it’s the muck that I’m reading that is clear rubbish, BS, lies or just plainly untrue and easily demonstrated as such that is astounding in this thread!!!

https://www.asti.ie/haddington-road-agreement-timeline-of-events/

Your attitude is just unbelievable!! We're posting "muck," "rubbish", "BS" and "lies" and you're somehow right are you?? And you post a timeline of events from the ASTI web page to try to prove just what exactly?? You're acting like a really difficult, defensive teenager who is 500% wrong, so wrong that even the dogs in the street would be laughing.

First off, you say the ASTI executive are as spineless as yer excuse for an executive!! You also say in an earlier post that ASTI were badly burned last time. So why is that do you think? And why did the executive err on the side of caution this time by not issuing a recommendation? Because our Judas sister union TUI keeps on stabbing us in the back, that's why!! We got burned because the other second level union had already signed up to everything,thereby hugely weakening,if not downright destroying our campaigns and then helping themselves to our wavering members for good measure! Oh and of course benefitting from any small gains.Such as being able to buy out of S&S. Or the 40 mins professional time. All conceded from ASTI actions. And they've been doing that kind of thing as long as I remember, way back to the benchmarking strikes of the early noughties. Always ASTI fighting the good fight. ALONE. And always having to give in in the end. Therefore, the no recommendation stance from our executive is very understandable given the history [though I personally disagreed] And once that stance was decided there was absolutely no attempt by any element of the ASTI to bully or frighten members into really voting Yes, unlike TUI, where active attempts to do just that were well documented. See Tui grassroots page on facebook.

You badly need to cop on to yourself and stop trying to defend the glaringly indefensible. There is a weak element in all PS unions and none of them are anywhere near as fighting as we'd like, but the TUI have become a liability! Very worryingly so. As another poster pointed out, what happens in the next recession? It doesn't bear thinking about and with TUI such a weak link among teacher trade unions, it's not hard to imagine how we'll be slaughtered.

I cannot see a strike happening. As mentioned lots of no voters will have an eye on CID's. Most will not give up an increment and the lads and ladies at the top table won't recommend it. As mentioned they were hoping for a Yes regardless of what the timeline says.

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Agree nothing will happen unless the INTO do the inconceivable and vote to strike. Cant see that happening....buttt

If it does happen, and ASTI goes out after em (and even if they dont tbh), I firmly believe pay inequality is over within a week. All the unions are looking for is a timeline. Even if the govt have to upgrade every post 2011 public servant's pay, theyve narrowed the gap enough that I dont think not committing to closing the gap altogether is going to be worth the hassle of schools closing indefinitely to them.

But its a big if. Probably too big.

Primary Teachers hold all the power.

acequion wrote: »

While ye sit back on yer arses like ye do every time, yet still pocket any gains. Is that what you mean???




Your attitude is just unbelievable!! We're posting "muck," "rubbish", "BS" and "lies" and you're somehow right are you?? And you post a timeline of events from the ASTI web page to try to prove just what exactly?? You're acting like a really difficult, defensive teenager who is 500% wrong, so wrong that even the dogs in the street would be laughing.

First off, you say the ASTI executive are as spineless as yer excuse for an executive!! You also say in an earlier post that ASTI were badly burned last time. So why is that do you think? And why did the executive err on the side of caution this time by not issuing a recommendation? Because our Judas sister union TUI keeps on stabbing us in the back, that's why!! We got burned because the other second level union had already signed up to everything,thereby hugely weakening,if not downright destroying our campaigns and then helping themselves to our wavering members for good measure! Oh and of course benefitting from any small gains.Such as being able to buy out of S&S. Or the 40 mins professional time. All conceded from ASTI actions. And they've been doing that kind of thing as long as I remember, way back to the benchmarking strikes of the early noughties. Always ASTI fighting the good fight. ALONE. And always having to give in in the end. Therefore, the no recommendation stance from our executive is very understandable given the history [though I personally disagreed] And once that stance was decided there was absolutely no attempt by any element of the ASTI to bully or frighten members into really voting Yes, unlike TUI, where active attempts to do just that were well documented. See Tui grassroots page on facebook.

You badly need to cop on to yourself and stop trying to defend the glaringly indefensible. There is a weak element in all PS unions and none of them are anywhere near as fighting as we'd like, but the TUI have become a liability! Very worryingly so. As another poster pointed out, what happens in the next recession? It doesn't bear thinking about and with TUI such a weak link among teacher trade unions, it's not hard to imagine how we'll be slaughtered.

Yes, some of what is being posted is clearly rubbish. Someone said something untrue and I presented a link to back it up.

ASTI give no recommendation and they’re smart. TUI give no recommendation and they are gutless. That’s pathetic reasoning. And the rejection of ASTI and INTO is meaningless as it won’t be backed up by strike action.

Here’s a fact for you all. ASTI and INTO are in the PSSA. The same as the TUI. Yet the TUI are the worst kind of Union? It’s illogical how people are telling me to cop on!

judeboy101 wrote: »

Asti are covered by pssa, we aren't in it. Ireland is covered by nato, we aren't in it.

That’s a good line. But we choose to be covered by NATO. The same way the ASTI choose to be in the PSSA.

doc_17 wrote: »

Who said that?

Anyway, speaking of leadership, the leadership of the ASTI nearly destroyed their union with their insane actions the last time. And they’ll do nothing this time as there’s no appetite amongst their members.

I suppose your idea of "insane actions" is singelmindedly digging the heels in, which is how changes are forced. And I suppose you think the eventual climb down was the sensible thing to do. The kind of thing TUI always do. Which is why teaching conditions are in the sorry state they're in.But I wouldn't expect you to realise that.

You haven't a clue how things are done in ASTI, nor the mindset behind the various decisions of ASTI, nor for that matter what the "appetite" of members might be and your ignorance of such is laughable. You're like a broken record trotting out the same lines over and over and trying to defend the indefensible, which is the actions of your union. It's a pity you don't put your energies into trying to get it to change!

judeboy101 wrote: »

Nato covers us because we don't have a Russian base or nukes based on our soil, the pssa covers us because we don't stage a mass walk out or refuse to do s&s. It's not so much we choose it as we reject the alternative.

ASTI have agreed to be part of the PSSA for all intents and purposes.

And since when did the TUI become a worse union than the INTO? If ASTI think the INTO are going to do anything like what is required then they are sadly mistaken. In fact, the ASTI won’t even do it.

If I’m like a broken record do forgive me. But I can’t listen to BS like what I read over the last few pages. Don’t forget, TUI include third level lecturers so I would assume the majority of the second level teachers in the TUI rejected the PSSA and yet they are being called all sorts here on this thread. It’ll more about the ASTI if they reject and still accept than it will about the TUI.

Anyway, I await your all out strike action. Because that’s what it’ll take. And if it does happen I wish you all the very best of luck and I hope you’re successful.

doc_17 wrote: »

ASTI have agreed to be part of the PSSA for all intents and purposes.

And since when did the TUI become a worse union than the INTO? If ASTI think the INTO are going to do anything like what is required then they are sadly mistaken. In fact, the ASTI won’t even do it.

If I’m like a broken record do forgive me. But I can’t listen to BS like what I read over the last few pages. Don’t forget, TUI include third level lecturers so I would assume the majority of the second level teachers in the TUI rejected the PSSA and yet they are being called all sorts here on this thread. It’ll more about the ASTI if they reject and still accept than it will about the TUI.

Anyway, I await your all out strike action. Because that’s what it’ll take. And if it does happen I wish you all the very best of luck and I hope you’re successful.

One important point! My ire is most certainly not directed at ordinary grassroots members, second level teachers within either ASTI or TUI who consistently vote no to outlandish "deals." My ire is aimed squarely at the TUI executive, who are dysfunctional at best, corrupt at worst.

judeboy101 wrote: »

Since they are majority non secondary school teachers and don't get affected to the extent that we do in our daily working lives, they can't be blamed for voting the way their constituents want. The game is rigged against secondary school teachers in the tui when it comes to representation.

Have you figures for that?

Education matters wrote: »

TUI has 19 on its Exec, 5 are 3rd level.3rd level lecturers were also involved in this vote as their new entrants are also affected. They do not vote on ballots that are for second level members only like JC previously. TUI does not allow retired members to vote either as those members will not be teaching the new curriculum. We had this clarified at a branch meeting

They also don't accept members from the ASTI when unions are in the middle of industrial action.

Oh wait.

gaiscioch wrote: »

Genuinely hard to fathom why the TUI Executive Committee are so spineless and unprincipled. Their disconnect is fairly astounding now.

That they've been hoovering up new members at the expense of the ASTI, a majority of whose members maintain their principled opposition to these sham "reforms", will forever be a stain on that union's character and its leadership's integrity. A cynic might think the main goal of the TUI is to become the biggest secondary school teachers' union at any cost.

The TUI Executive Committee, and their flaccid membership, are the useful idiots for every Irish government's attempt to undermine the teaching profession. Divide and conquer only ever works if you can purchase one section. The TUI is, consistently, that section. Consistently. When they've spent their 30 pieces of silver, what then? Our conditions will be back to the conditions of Irish teachers decades ago, conditions which will be reduced further in the next recession (has anybody even thought that far ahead yet?). It is the terms and conditions of every teacher which have suffered, and will continue to suffer, from this pernicious cancer that is the existence of more than one secondary school teachers' union.

Most of all, the vast majority of these "reforms" are nothing of the sort. They remain a sham that's desperately in need of being exposed. Having attended a cluster day recently, the work rate they are expecting from teachers for this new JC is comical, so comical that it's all going to turn into a box ticking exercise (to state the blindingly obvious). Nobody is tackling how, and why, these "reforms" failed in England. In detail. Absolute silence. Not a single academic in any Irish university's Education department, or in the employment of the ASTI, has any research done on the model which our system is emulating.

gaiscioch, while I completely agree with 99% of this as indeed I do with all your posts on this matter,it's not quite accurate to say that nobody is tackling the problem. Dr Geraldine Mooney Simmie of UL comes to mind here, who was very vocal and outspoken against Junior Cycle reform and published papers about it,https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.2304/csee.2014.13.3.185
In fact she was guest speaker at the 2017 ASTI conference and spoke really eloquently, even winning over the conservatives in the union with her excellent arguments.

And I think there are many like her. I attended an ASTI run conference celebrating free education in Ireland earlier this year, where a number of academics were guest speakers and what was striking was how irreverent and scathing they all were about recent education policy and reform. In fact one even suggested that the continuing success of Irish education was down to the teachers who largely resist a lot of the nonsense reforms and teach with common sense.

So there definitely are a lot of highly placed people out there calling the Government on all this rubbish. The problem,I think, lies in our almost propaganda style media, pro Government propaganda, where you rarely hear the dissenting voice. The general public have been systematically brainwashed against the public service for so many years now and never get to hear the other side of the argument. And such blatant bias is very worrying in a democracy.

Anyone in any doubt that our little country festers in corruption need only watch the recent Maurice McCabe documentary. Maybe what went on there was the extreme end of corruption or maybe it's the norm,it's abhorrent in any case. And also typifies the need for ordinary people to constantly stand up,mobilise and oppose what they see as wrong. Unlike the French, who refuse to take the BS doled out to them, we Irish, are a nation of sheep.