Border Poll discussion

jm08 · 11-02-2019 1:37pm

seamus wrote: »

Naturally as one would expect where two jurisdictions merge, the seat of parliament would be in the larger one. But it's possible that the Northern Assembly could be maintained - perhaps if each province had its own assembly, with a smaller Dail, we might get more done.

Ireland is too small to have regional assemblies other than maybe upgrading Co. Councils to give them more power.

Stormont seems to be a cesspool of sectarianism, so I think it needs to be shut down.

What I think would be good would be maybe for the Dail to sit in Stormont for 1 week a month which would help unionists see that the Dail is as much their parliament as it is ours.

11-02-2019 1:40pm

Skelet0n wrote: »

Something with green for the Irish and orange for the British, maybe?
Maybe something similar to the Ivory Coast’s flag?

Why Orange for the British?

11-02-2019 1:42pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

A nations symbols should reflect it's people. The Unionist tradition in the north east of the island will be a small minority in a UI. The PUL community will be a regional minority ethnic group whose culture and traditions should enjoy legal protection and access to funding etc in a UI, but should not expect to be given the same prominance as the culture and traditions and symbols that represent the vast majority of the population.

Maybe not, but if those communities find the current symbols and anthem abhorrent, then the government would have to take this in to consideration and act with "Rigorous Impartiality".

Imreoir2 · 11-02-2019 1:51pm

segarox wrote: »

i hope some people from northern ireland are reading this because it concerns them.

i've been watching a few videos on what might happen to the north following brexit and one of the options is to reunify with ireland, which i believe, is not everyone cup of tea. me personally as an irishman, i have no strong feelings about this but i think it'd be nice to see a complete ireland on a map. however, i think i may have seen an option that hasn't been considered.

what if the north was to vote to rejoin ireland but in name only; establish yourselves as a separate state with your own government, your own police force (technically you have that already; Stormont and the PSNI) and your own currency.

could have the benefits of staying in the EU and not have the unpleasant taste of irish in your mouths. or am i talking rubbish? please, i'd to hear what you have to say.

Definatly talking rubbish, there is no option for that under the GFA, the only option is to join with Ireland. After that, decisions are made by the island as a whole, not one or the other part of it seperatly. A UI could choose to devide itself internally in that way, but I can't see much of a case for it.

blanch152 · 11-02-2019 1:51pm

breatheme wrote: »

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, because based on the current state of affairs, I think that a cliff-edge no deal Brexit is the most likely outcome.

I do think that a UK in the EU negates the possibility of a border poll to happen in the decades to come.

I think a cliff-edge no deal Brexit is a real possibility in the short term. But two things. Firstly, agreeing and organising a border poll this year given other priorities because of Brexit is extremely unlikely no matter what happens on March 29. For a start, any border poll would have to set out the parameters of what is being proposed which will require discussion between Dublin and London. How likely is that to happen quickly?

Secondly, it will become apparent later this year that a long-term close relationship with the EU will be needed, and given that the opinion poll you reference changes depending on the nature of the long-term relationship between the UK and the EU, delaying a border poll until that long-term relationship is clear is the most sensible thing to do.

blanch152 · 11-02-2019 1:54pm

Bambi wrote: »

NI doesn't have a flag or an anthem, the United Kingdom does

We can come up with a compromise though, something that would express the equal standing given to both communities and expressed a desire to see them both coexist harmoniously

I'm trying to think what such a flag would like

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick%27s_Saltire

How about St. Patrick's Saltire?

If it was removed from the British flag, it would symbolise independence.

blanch152 · 11-02-2019 1:59pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

A nations symbols should reflect it's people. The Unionist tradition in the north east of the island will be a small minority in a UI. The PUL community will be a regional minority ethnic group whose culture and traditions should enjoy legal protection and access to funding etc in a UI, but should not expect to be given the same prominance as the culture and traditions and symbols that represent the vast majority of the population.

Unionists can expect to enjoy a similar place in a UI that the Welsh have in the UK, equall citizens with equal rights, freedom and legal protecton to practice their own traditions, but it is not the Welsh flag nor the Welsh anthem that represents the UK and no one would expect it to.

That reads like something Edward Carson might have said in the 1920s about Northern Ireland.

Imreoir2 · 11-02-2019 2:09pm

Aegir wrote: »

Maybe not, but if those communities find the current symbols and anthem abhorrent, then the government would have to take this in to consideration and act with "Rigorous Impartiality".

The UK has roundly faild to act given the abhorrence with with many nationalists in NI view British symbols. Lets not forget that while many IRA men's coffins were draped with the tri-colour, many B-specials coffins were draped with the Union Jack. There are no neutral symbols here.

Imreoir2 · 11-02-2019 2:27pm

blanch152 wrote: »

That reads like something Edward Carson might have said in the 1920s about Northern Ireland.

Thats nice. Personally I don't think we should promote a false equlivance between the traditions on this island or set up Unionists to have unrealistic expectations. It is quite likely and in my opinion preferable that the symbols of Ireland become the symbols of a new united Ireland.

Dyr · 11-02-2019 2:39pm

blanch152 wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick%27s_Saltire

How about St. Patrick's Saltire?

If it was removed from the British flag, it would symbolise independence.

What about not?

We can use the erin go bragh flag, it was also the UDR's cap badge so it's not like the other lot can complain about it much.

Not only would we have the only musical instrument on a national flag we'd also have a pair of knockers too.

jm08 · 11-02-2019 2:47pm

Bambi wrote: »

What about not?

We can use the erin go bragh flag, it was also the UDR's cap badge so it's not like the other lot can complain about it much.

Not only would we have the only musical instrument on a national flag we'd also have a pair of knockers too.

Royal Irish Regiment have that harp as their emblem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Irish_Regiment_(1992)

breatheme · 11-02-2019 2:55pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I think a cliff-edge no deal Brexit is a real possibility in the short term. But two things. Firstly, agreeing and organising a border poll this year given other priorities because of Brexit is extremely unlikely no matter what happens on March 29. For a start, any border poll would have to set out the parameters of what is being proposed which will require discussion between Dublin and London. How likely is that to happen quickly?

Not necessarily. Organising the border poll in NI falls on the UK, and I wouldn't past them.

Secondly, it will become apparent later this year that a long-term close relationship with the EU will be needed, and given that the opinion poll you reference changes depending on the nature of the long-term relationship between the UK and the EU, delaying a border poll until that long-term relationship is clear is the most sensible thing to do.

Again, this is assuming the UK's government is competent, but I keep getting the impression that they're not. A lot of this sounds like 2015's "the UK will never vote to leave the EU."

11-02-2019 3:04pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

The UK has roundly faild to act given the abhorrence with with many nationalists in NI view British symbols. Lets not forget that while many IRA men's coffins were draped with the tri-colour, many B-specials coffins were draped with the Union Jack. There are no neutral symbols here.

Which would be valid, if someone was proposing the union flag was adopted, but they’re not.

James Brown · 11-02-2019 7:19pm

It makes no sense including the trappings of a people opposed to a united Ireland in the symbols of a united Ireland.
The red hand of Ulster is there and they took to that.
We would need a different flag.

An Ciarraioch · 11-02-2019 8:26pm

As others have said, either the current Presidential banner or a gold harp on a green background would seem sufficiently neutral for the flag, maybe take the Spanish approach to the anthem by playing the Derry/Londonderry Air. In terms of the Border poll itself, that would likely require years of preparation before holding the vote, even if one were to be called this year - some all-island civic forum would be required to debate the various political and economic issues involved, and while unionists would almost certainly abstain, business and agricultural bodies might partially represent their interests.

Imreoir2 · 11-02-2019 8:49pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

As others have said, either the current Presidential banner or a gold harp on a green background would seem sufficiently neutral for the flag, maybe take the Spanish approach to the anthem by playing the Derry/Londonderry Air. In terms of the Border poll itself, that would likely require years of preparation before holding the vote, even if one were to be called this year - some all-island civic forum would be required to debate the various political and economic issues involved, and while unionists would almost certainly abstain, business and agricultural bodies might partially represent their interests.

National symbols like flags are not corporate logos, they don't have to be neutral. The tri-colour as a national symbol has represented Ireland for over 100 years and I don't think there is a good reason to drop it in a UI. The justification for doing so seems to be to placate unionists, but it won't placate unionists. They will be equally opposed to a united Ireland under any flag. On the other hand, andoning the nations symbols merly creates a greivence among nationalists at their abandoment while at the same time making them available for uncontested use by disedent republicens and far right wing groups.

In short you achieve nothing more than annoying the greatest supporters of a United Ireland, northern nationalists, while doing nothing to satisfy its greatest opponents, northern unionists.

blanch152 · 11-02-2019 11:49pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

National symbols like flags are not corporate logos, they don't have to be neutral. The tri-colour as a national symbol has represented Ireland for over 100 years and I don't think there is a good reason to drop it in a UI. The justification for doing so seems to be to placate unionists, but it won't placate unionists. They will be equally opposed to a united Ireland under any flag. On the other hand, andoning the nations symbols merly creates a greivence among nationalists at their abandoment while at the same time making them available for uncontested use by disedent republicens and far right wing groups.

In short you achieve nothing more than annoying the greatest supporters of a United Ireland, northern nationalists, while doing nothing to satisfy its greatest opponents, northern unionists.

There is a very good reason to drop the tricolour - it alienates a significant proportion of the population.

Those wishing to retain it have the same triumphalist mentality as the Northern Ireland state before civil rights.

Symbolism is important. Both northern unionists and northern nationalists need to know that a united Ireland doesn't mean reversing roles.

Peregrinus · 12-02-2019 2:48am

I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves choosing the emblems for a united Irish state. Just sayin'.

circadian · 12-02-2019 9:21am

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves choosing the emblems for a united Irish state. Just sayin'.

I'd be inclined to agree with this. As a northern nationalist living in Dublin I'd like to see a solid proposal of how a United Ireland may look should a border poll pass, before a border poll is proposed. Brexit has shown us that being unprepared for a fundamental change and not having these discussions before asking the electorate leads to absolute chaos.

For me and for most people north of the border, flags won't be an issue despite it being a northern trope most people care about roofs over heads and food on the table. It's always a minority that seems to get the lions share of the media's attention in the north and I feel this misrepresents that majority of the population there.

If Brexit goes as badly as expected then the north will be the hardest hit first, health service will suffer, access to produce and essential services will become strained. This will be a harsh reality for the unionists who voted remain and those that go are now on the fence having seen what a shambles the whole thing is. Ultimately, they'll want stability and quality of life and talking to my friends and family who are moderate unionists, providing food and a home for their children is far, far more important than an ideology that could possibly put them in a very dangerous position.

I've quoted Carson before but I think it is possibly the most fitting quote for the state of Unionism as it has always been, but it is now laid bare and more obvious than ever before in the shambles that is Brexit;

"What a fool I was! I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into Power."

Havockk · 12-02-2019 10:41am

blanch152 wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick%27s_Saltire

How about St. Patrick's Saltire?

If it was removed from the British flag, it would symbolise independence.

Did you read this article? This flag isn't connected to Ireland at all.

James Brown · 12-02-2019 2:58pm

circadian wrote: »

I'd be inclined to agree with this. As a northern nationalist living in Dublin I'd like to see a solid proposal of how a United Ireland may look should a border poll pass, before a border poll is proposed. Brexit has shown us that being unprepared for a fundamental change and not having these discussions before asking the electorate leads to absolute chaos.

For me and for most people north of the border, flags won't be an issue despite it being a northern trope most people care about roofs over heads and food on the table. It's always a minority that seems to get the lions share of the media's attention in the north and I feel this misrepresents that majority of the population there.

If Brexit goes as badly as expected then the north will be the hardest hit first, health service will suffer, access to produce and essential services will become strained. This will be a harsh reality for the unionists who voted remain and those that go are now on the fence having seen what a shambles the whole thing is. Ultimately, they'll want stability and quality of life and talking to my friends and family who are moderate unionists, providing food and a home for their children is far, far more important than an ideology that could possibly put them in a very dangerous position.

I've quoted Carson before but I think it is possibly the most fitting quote for the state of Unionism as it has always been, but it is now laid bare and more obvious than ever before in the shambles that is Brexit;

"What a fool I was! I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into Power."

A handy statement or get out of jail free card for using the Conservatives to wield power while putting the greater good on the back burner. Foster can use it. Do even the DUP believe they have the good of the people ahead of themselves?

blanch152 · 12-02-2019 3:12pm

Havockk wrote: »

Did you read this article? This flag isn't connected to Ireland at all.

Did you pick up on this comment?

"Saint Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used as a cross-community symbol with less political baggage than either the Union Flag or the Ulster Banner, seen as pro-Unionist, or the Irish tricolour used by Irish nationalists."

It's provenance predates the Act of Union, and could be seen as a return to those times.

Havockk · 12-02-2019 4:24pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Did you pick up on this comment?

"Saint Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used as a cross-community symbol with less political baggage than either the Union Flag or the Ulster Banner, seen as pro-Unionist, or the Irish tricolour used by Irish nationalists."

It's provenance predates the Act of Union, and could be seen as a return to those times.

I'm on board about the necessity of a new flag for a New Ireland, but this is a flag of a British chivalric order. I've never seen it once, and I've lived over 40 years in the North. It's a non-runner, it is, in dead parrot parlance, dead.

jm08 · 12-02-2019 4:25pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Did you pick up on this comment?

"Saint Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used as a cross-community symbol with less political baggage than either the Union Flag or the Ulster Banner, seen as pro-Unionist, or the Irish tricolour used by Irish nationalists."

It's provenance predates the Act of Union, and could be seen as a return to those times.

What does it symbolise?

blanch152 · 12-02-2019 4:43pm

Havockk wrote: »

I'm on board about the necessity of a new flag for a New Ireland, but this is a flag of a British chivalric order. I've never seen it once, and I've lived over 40 years in the North. It's a non-runner, it is, in dead parrot parlance, dead.

There is a view that its origins are in the coat of arms of the Duke of Leinster.

jm08 · 12-02-2019 4:47pm

Havockk wrote: »

I'm on board about the necessity of a new flag for a New Ireland, but this is a flag of a British chivalric order. I've never seen it once, and I've lived over 40 years in the North. It's a non-runner, it is, in dead parrot parlance, dead.

This New Ireland - how is it meant to differ from what we have now? The Ireland people think of is that old, RC dominated, conservative country. I think we have moved away from that and if you look at the two Ireland's now, its NI that is still extremely conservative (both nationalists and unionists).

James Brown · 12-02-2019 4:49pm

I don't think any part of the British flag would be a runner and as arguable as it's provenance is, it's always going to be associated with the British flag first and foremost. We have variations in the former colonies already. I don't think a united Ireland wants to join the long list of those nations. Complete separation under a new flag IMO.

jm08 wrote: »

This New Ireland - how is it meant to differ from what we have now? The Ireland people think of is that old, RC dominated, conservative country. I think we have moved away from that and if you look at the two Ireland's now, its NI that is still extremely conservative (both nationalists and unionists).

Another reason to ditch any antiquated Saint association too.

blanch152 · 12-02-2019 4:55pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I don't think any part of the British flag would be a runner and as arguable as it's provenance is, it's always going to be associated with the British flag first and foremost. We have variations in the former colonies already. I don't think a united Ireland wants to join the long list of those nations. Complete separation under a new flag IMO.

Another reason to ditch any antiquated Saint association too.

That is a very one-sided nationalist view of a united Ireland. Unless a united Ireland recognises and embraces the legitimacy of its British past, it will not embrace all of its people.

Havockk · 12-02-2019 4:58pm

blanch152 wrote: »

That is a very one-sided nationalist view of a united Ireland. Unless a united Ireland recognises and embraces the legitimacy of its British past, it will not embrace all of its people.

Legitimacy?

blanch152 · 12-02-2019 5:07pm

Havockk wrote: »

Legitimacy?

Well, yes.

The Irish parliament voted for the Act of Union.

The Irish Dail voted to accept the Treaty.

Both of those democratic actions gave legitimacy to various aspects of British rule.

Unpleasant truths for those of a romantic nationalist worldview, but truths nonetheless. You can argue on exactly how much legitimacy they had, but for a significant minority of people living on this island, those decisions are part of their heritage and should be recognised and embraced in a united Ireland.

Havockk · 12-02-2019 5:11pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, yes.

The Irish parliament voted for the Act of Union.

The Irish Dail voted to accept the Treaty.

Both of those democratic actions gave legitimacy to various aspects of British rule.

Unpleasant truths for those of a romantic nationalist worldview, but truths nonetheless. You can argue on exactly how much legitimacy they had, but for a significant minority of people living on this island, those decisions are part of their heritage and should be recognised and embraced in a united Ireland.

Well, we certainly are far apart in what constitutes legitimacy in that case. Personally, I don't consider the parliament of a state that is only comprised of one religion, of which it is a tiny minority to act as the arbiters of either legitimacy or indeed democracy.

jm08 · 12-02-2019 5:14pm

blanch152 wrote: »

That is a very one-sided nationalist view of a united Ireland. Unless a united Ireland recognises and embraces the legitimacy of its British past, it will not embrace all of its people.

I'm not sure what you mean by legitimacy of British past, but I don't think we should be held hostage by the likes of the DUP who will be offended by everything Irish anyway.

cgcsb · 12-02-2019 5:19pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

As others have said, either the current Presidential banner or a gold harp on a green background would seem sufficiently neutral for the flag, maybe take the Spanish approach to the anthem by playing the Derry/Londonderry Air. In terms of the Border poll itself, that would likely require years of preparation before holding the vote, even if one were to be called this year - some all-island civic forum would be required to debate the various political and economic issues involved, and while unionists would almost certainly abstain, business and agricultural bodies might partially represent their interests.

Lol, why? You want to effectively remove/reduce Irish symbolism for the sake of not offending self-identified non-Irish in Ireland. That's pure cuck talk in fairness. If the non-Irish resident in Ireland are offended by Irishness, then they are aware of the location of ports of entry.

Havockk · 12-02-2019 5:21pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Lol, why? You want to effectively remove/reduce Irish symbolism for the sake of not offending self-identified non-Irish in Ireland. That's pure cuck talk in fairness. If the non-Irish resident in Ireland are offended by Irishness, then they are aware of the location of ports of entry.

Rubbish. They have to be accommodated and protected.

jm08 · 12-02-2019 5:21pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, yes.

The Irish parliament voted for the Act of Union.
The Irish Dail voted to accept the Treaty.

Both of those democratic actions gave legitimacy to various aspects of British rule.

Unpleasant truths for those of a romantic nationalist worldview, but truths nonetheless. You can argue on exactly how much legitimacy they had, but for a significant minority of people living on this island, those decisions are part of their heritage and should be recognised and embraced in a united Ireland.

So basically, there was bribary and trickery involved in the passing of the Act of Union.
Terrible war was threatened if partition wasn't accepted.

Is this your idea of democracy?

jm08 · 12-02-2019 5:24pm

Havockk wrote: »

Rubbish. They have to be accommodated and protected.

Protected from what?

Havockk · 12-02-2019 5:27pm

jm08 wrote: »

Protected from what?

Citizenship rights etc for those who claim British as their identity.

An Ciarraioch · 12-02-2019 5:29pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, yes.

The Irish parliament voted for the Act of Union.

The Irish Dail voted to accept the Treaty.

Both of those democratic actions gave legitimacy to various aspects of British rule.

Unpleasant truths for those of a romantic nationalist worldview, but truths nonetheless. You can argue on exactly how much legitimacy they had, but for a significant minority of people living on this island, those decisions are part of their heritage and should be recognised and embraced in a united Ireland.

It's been well established that the 1800 vote only passed through extensive bribery:

https://www.libraryireland.com/JoyceHistory/Union.php

jm08 · 12-02-2019 5:34pm

Havockk wrote: »

Citizenship rights etc for those who claim British as their identity.

Going on the GFA, a very high percentage of people from the republic don't have a problem with people's right to identify as British, Irish or Both.

That will need to fit in with the rest though. Personally, I'd like to see all flags, kerbstone painting etc. being banned in Northern Ireland while I would welcome Orange Parades etc, 12th July a national holiday treated the same as St Patrick's Day with parade on O'Connell Street, Dublin.

I do realise that people from NI are very sensitive to each other's symbolism, but lets embrace both rather than throwing one or the other out completely.

Havockk · 12-02-2019 5:39pm

jm08 wrote: »

Going on the GFA, a very high percentage of people from the republic don't have a problem with people's right to identify as British, Irish or Both.

That will need to fit in with the rest though. Personally, I'd like to see all flags, kerbstone painting etc. being banned in Northern Ireland while I would welcome Orange Parades etc, 12th July a national holiday treated the same as St Patrick's Day with parade on O'Connell Street, Dublin.

I do realise that people from NI are very sensitive to each other's symbolism, but lets embrace both rather than throwing one or the other out completely.

The Kerbs are not much of a blight outside certain areas. Still, I'd be very reticent about being draconian in banning such things. Such things will fade over themselves over time as that identity subsumes into a more homogenous one down the line.

blanch152 · 12-02-2019 5:43pm

jm08 wrote: »

So basically, there was bribary and trickery involved in the passing of the Act of Union.
Terrible war was threatened if partition wasn't accepted.

Is this your idea of democracy?

Isn't doomsday being threatened if the Withdrawal Agreement isn't ratified? We may still have the spectre of the HOC voting for a no-deal Brexit and bravely and democratically telling the world to do one, but is that an advertisement for democracy?

A democratic decision was made taking all of the circumstances into account.

Havockk · 12-02-2019 5:47pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Isn't doomsday being threatened if the Withdrawal Agreement isn't ratified? We may still have the spectre of the HOC voting for a no-deal Brexit and bravely and democratically telling the world to do one, but is that an advertisement for democracy?

A democratic decision was made taking all of the circumstances into account.

Brexit mess is far removed from democracy.

cgcsb · 12-02-2019 6:05pm

Havockk wrote: »

Rubbish. They have to be accommodated and protected.

Of course they'll be accommodated and protected. To say that we have to remove Irish symbols to appease non-Irish people who are offended by Irishness is pure nonsense.

cgcsb · 12-02-2019 6:07pm

Havockk wrote: »

Citizenship rights etc for those who claim British as their identity.

British nationals have the right to reside here unrestricted. Whether or not the Ulster-Scots people remain British Citizens is a matter for the home office to decide.

An Ciarraioch · 12-02-2019 6:09pm

cgcsb wrote: »

British nationals have the right to reside here unrestricted. Whether or not the Ulster-Scots people remain British Citizens is a matter for the home office to decide.

Assuming the GFA remains in force, they would be entitled to British citizenship, similar to nationalists currently with Irish citizenship?

cgcsb · 12-02-2019 6:10pm

jm08 wrote: »

Going on the GFA, a very high percentage of people from the republic don't have a problem with people's right to identify as British, Irish or Both.

That will need to fit in with the rest though. Personally, I'd like to see all flags, kerbstone painting etc. being banned in Northern Ireland while I would welcome Orange Parades etc, 12th July a national holiday treated the same as St Patrick's Day with parade on O'Connell Street, Dublin.

I do realise that people from NI are very sensitive to each other's symbolism, but lets embrace both rather than throwing one or the other out completely.

Such a tradition would be completely alien to Dublin, not having a resident 'orange' community and all. We have Chinese new year and a community to match. That being said we had the Pope's visit in Dublin despite the lack of a significant community of support, the visit would've been better handled in Mayo

12-02-2019 6:14pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Assuming the GFA remains in force, they would be entitled to British citizenship, similar to nationalists currently with Irish citizenship?

There is no time limit on the GFA

blanch152 · 12-02-2019 6:17pm

Havockk wrote: »

Brexit mess is far removed from democracy.

It is democracy. Sometimes the people or the parliamentarians vote for something many of us don't like or don't want, be that Brexit, Act of Union or partition. However, not liking it doesn't make it undemocratic.

jm08 · 12-02-2019 6:24pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Isn't doomsday being threatened if the Withdrawal Agreement isn't ratified? We may still have the spectre of the HOC voting for a no-deal Brexit and bravely and democratically telling the world to do one, but is that an advertisement for democracy?

A democratic decision was made taking all of the circumstances into account.

Lloyd George threatening ''terrible and immediate war''? No one is threatening war if the WA isn't ratified.

One thing that this whole Brexit thing shows is that British democracy is shambolic.

cgcsb · 12-02-2019 6:26pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Assuming the GFA remains in force, they would be entitled to British citizenship, similar to nationalists currently with Irish citizenship?

The GFA will have run it's course by then. Perhaps a new agreement will be in place offering the 2million people of former NI a British passport if they want in a similar way to how Irish people born in the Irish Free State before 1949 could. But that's up to the negotiators at the time. The British state may be reluctant to offer this after having washed their hands of the NI experiment. But who knows they might do for the sake of a quiet life.

Border Poll discussion

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