nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Border Poll discussion

segarox

i hope some people from northern ireland are reading this because it concerns them.

i've been watching a few videos on what might happen to the north following brexit and one of the options is to reunify with ireland, which i believe, is not everyone cup of tea. me personally as an irishman, i have no strong feelings about this but i think it'd be nice to see a complete ireland on a map. however, i think i may have seen an option that hasn't been considered.

what if the north was to vote to rejoin ireland but in name only; establish yourselves as a separate state with your own government, your own police force (technically you have that already; Stormont and the PSNI) and your own currency.

could have the benefits of staying in the EU and not have the unpleasant taste of irish in your mouths. or am i talking rubbish? please, i'd to hear what you have to say.

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

James Brown

circadian wrote: »

I'd be inclined to agree with this. As a northern nationalist living in Dublin I'd like to see a solid proposal of how a United Ireland may look should a border poll pass, before a border poll is proposed. Brexit has shown us that being unprepared for a fundamental change and not having these discussions before asking the electorate leads to absolute chaos.

For me and for most people north of the border, flags won't be an issue despite it being a northern trope most people care about roofs over heads and food on the table. It's always a minority that seems to get the lions share of the media's attention in the north and I feel this misrepresents that majority of the population there.

If Brexit goes as badly as expected then the north will be the hardest hit first, health service will suffer, access to produce and essential services will become strained. This will be a harsh reality for the unionists who voted remain and those that go are now on the fence having seen what a shambles the whole thing is. Ultimately, they'll want stability and quality of life and talking to my friends and family who are moderate unionists, providing food and a home for their children is far, far more important than an ideology that could possibly put them in a very dangerous position.

I've quoted Carson before but I think it is possibly the most fitting quote for the state of Unionism as it has always been, but it is now laid bare and more obvious than ever before in the shambles that is Brexit;

"What a fool I was! I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into Power."

A handy statement or get out of jail free card for using the Conservatives to wield power while putting the greater good on the back burner. Foster can use it. Do even the DUP believe they have the good of the people ahead of themselves?

blanch152

Havockk wrote: »

Did you read this article? This flag isn't connected to Ireland at all.

Did you pick up on this comment?

"Saint Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used as a cross-community symbol with less political baggage than either the Union Flag or the Ulster Banner, seen as pro-Unionist, or the Irish tricolour used by Irish nationalists."

It's provenance predates the Act of Union, and could be seen as a return to those times.

Havockk

blanch152 wrote: »

Did you pick up on this comment?

"Saint Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used as a cross-community symbol with less political baggage than either the Union Flag or the Ulster Banner, seen as pro-Unionist, or the Irish tricolour used by Irish nationalists."

It's provenance predates the Act of Union, and could be seen as a return to those times.

I'm on board about the necessity of a new flag for a New Ireland, but this is a flag of a British chivalric order. I've never seen it once, and I've lived over 40 years in the North. It's a non-runner, it is, in dead parrot parlance, dead.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Did you pick up on this comment?

"Saint Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used as a cross-community symbol with less political baggage than either the Union Flag or the Ulster Banner, seen as pro-Unionist, or the Irish tricolour used by Irish nationalists."

It's provenance predates the Act of Union, and could be seen as a return to those times.

What does it symbolise?

blanch152

Havockk wrote: »

I'm on board about the necessity of a new flag for a New Ireland, but this is a flag of a British chivalric order. I've never seen it once, and I've lived over 40 years in the North. It's a non-runner, it is, in dead parrot parlance, dead.

There is a view that its origins are in the coat of arms of the Duke of Leinster.

jm08

Havockk wrote: »

I'm on board about the necessity of a new flag for a New Ireland, but this is a flag of a British chivalric order. I've never seen it once, and I've lived over 40 years in the North. It's a non-runner, it is, in dead parrot parlance, dead.

This New Ireland - how is it meant to differ from what we have now? The Ireland people think of is that old, RC dominated, conservative country. I think we have moved away from that and if you look at the two Ireland's now, its NI that is still extremely conservative (both nationalists and unionists).

James Brown

I don't think any part of the British flag would be a runner and as arguable as it's provenance is, it's always going to be associated with the British flag first and foremost. We have variations in the former colonies already. I don't think a united Ireland wants to join the long list of those nations. Complete separation under a new flag IMO.

jm08 wrote: »

This New Ireland - how is it meant to differ from what we have now? The Ireland people think of is that old, RC dominated, conservative country. I think we have moved away from that and if you look at the two Ireland's now, its NI that is still extremely conservative (both nationalists and unionists).

Another reason to ditch any antiquated Saint association too.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I don't think any part of the British flag would be a runner and as arguable as it's provenance is, it's always going to be associated with the British flag first and foremost. We have variations in the former colonies already. I don't think a united Ireland wants to join the long list of those nations. Complete separation under a new flag IMO.

Another reason to ditch any antiquated Saint association too.

That is a very one-sided nationalist view of a united Ireland. Unless a united Ireland recognises and embraces the legitimacy of its British past, it will not embrace all of its people.

Havockk

blanch152 wrote: »

That is a very one-sided nationalist view of a united Ireland. Unless a united Ireland recognises and embraces the legitimacy of its British past, it will not embrace all of its people.

Legitimacy?

blanch152

Havockk wrote: »

Legitimacy?

Well, yes.

The Irish parliament voted for the Act of Union.

The Irish Dail voted to accept the Treaty.

Both of those democratic actions gave legitimacy to various aspects of British rule.

Unpleasant truths for those of a romantic nationalist worldview, but truths nonetheless. You can argue on exactly how much legitimacy they had, but for a significant minority of people living on this island, those decisions are part of their heritage and should be recognised and embraced in a united Ireland.

Havockk

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, yes.

The Irish parliament voted for the Act of Union.

The Irish Dail voted to accept the Treaty.

Both of those democratic actions gave legitimacy to various aspects of British rule.

Unpleasant truths for those of a romantic nationalist worldview, but truths nonetheless. You can argue on exactly how much legitimacy they had, but for a significant minority of people living on this island, those decisions are part of their heritage and should be recognised and embraced in a united Ireland.

Well, we certainly are far apart in what constitutes legitimacy in that case. Personally, I don't consider the parliament of a state that is only comprised of one religion, of which it is a tiny minority to act as the arbiters of either legitimacy or indeed democracy.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

That is a very one-sided nationalist view of a united Ireland. Unless a united Ireland recognises and embraces the legitimacy of its British past, it will not embrace all of its people.

I'm not sure what you mean by legitimacy of British past, but I don't think we should be held hostage by the likes of the DUP who will be offended by everything Irish anyway.

cgcsb

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

As others have said, either the current Presidential banner or a gold harp on a green background would seem sufficiently neutral for the flag, maybe take the Spanish approach to the anthem by playing the Derry/Londonderry Air. In terms of the Border poll itself, that would likely require years of preparation before holding the vote, even if one were to be called this year - some all-island civic forum would be required to debate the various political and economic issues involved, and while unionists would almost certainly abstain, business and agricultural bodies might partially represent their interests.

Lol, why? You want to effectively remove/reduce Irish symbolism for the sake of not offending self-identified non-Irish in Ireland. That's pure cuck talk in fairness. If the non-Irish resident in Ireland are offended by Irishness, then they are aware of the location of ports of entry.

Havockk

cgcsb wrote: »

Lol, why? You want to effectively remove/reduce Irish symbolism for the sake of not offending self-identified non-Irish in Ireland. That's pure cuck talk in fairness. If the non-Irish resident in Ireland are offended by Irishness, then they are aware of the location of ports of entry.

Rubbish. They have to be accommodated and protected.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, yes.

The Irish parliament voted for the Act of Union.
The Irish Dail voted to accept the Treaty.

Both of those democratic actions gave legitimacy to various aspects of British rule.

Unpleasant truths for those of a romantic nationalist worldview, but truths nonetheless. You can argue on exactly how much legitimacy they had, but for a significant minority of people living on this island, those decisions are part of their heritage and should be recognised and embraced in a united Ireland.

So basically, there was bribary and trickery involved in the passing of the Act of Union.
Terrible war was threatened if partition wasn't accepted.

Is this your idea of democracy?

jm08

Havockk wrote: »

Rubbish. They have to be accommodated and protected.

Protected from what?

Havockk

jm08 wrote: »

Protected from what?

Citizenship rights etc for those who claim British as their identity.

An Ciarraioch

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, yes.

The Irish parliament voted for the Act of Union.

The Irish Dail voted to accept the Treaty.

Both of those democratic actions gave legitimacy to various aspects of British rule.

Unpleasant truths for those of a romantic nationalist worldview, but truths nonetheless. You can argue on exactly how much legitimacy they had, but for a significant minority of people living on this island, those decisions are part of their heritage and should be recognised and embraced in a united Ireland.

It's been well established that the 1800 vote only passed through extensive bribery:

https://www.libraryireland.com/JoyceHistory/Union.php

jm08

Havockk wrote: »

Citizenship rights etc for those who claim British as their identity.

Going on the GFA, a very high percentage of people from the republic don't have a problem with people's right to identify as British, Irish or Both.

That will need to fit in with the rest though. Personally, I'd like to see all flags, kerbstone painting etc. being banned in Northern Ireland while I would welcome Orange Parades etc, 12th July a national holiday treated the same as St Patrick's Day with parade on O'Connell Street, Dublin.

I do realise that people from NI are very sensitive to each other's symbolism, but lets embrace both rather than throwing one or the other out completely.

Havockk

jm08 wrote: »

Going on the GFA, a very high percentage of people from the republic don't have a problem with people's right to identify as British, Irish or Both.

That will need to fit in with the rest though. Personally, I'd like to see all flags, kerbstone painting etc. being banned in Northern Ireland while I would welcome Orange Parades etc, 12th July a national holiday treated the same as St Patrick's Day with parade on O'Connell Street, Dublin.

I do realise that people from NI are very sensitive to each other's symbolism, but lets embrace both rather than throwing one or the other out completely.

The Kerbs are not much of a blight outside certain areas. Still, I'd be very reticent about being draconian in banning such things. Such things will fade over themselves over time as that identity subsumes into a more homogenous one down the line.

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

So basically, there was bribary and trickery involved in the passing of the Act of Union.
Terrible war was threatened if partition wasn't accepted.

Is this your idea of democracy?

Isn't doomsday being threatened if the Withdrawal Agreement isn't ratified? We may still have the spectre of the HOC voting for a no-deal Brexit and bravely and democratically telling the world to do one, but is that an advertisement for democracy?

A democratic decision was made taking all of the circumstances into account.

Havockk

blanch152 wrote: »

Isn't doomsday being threatened if the Withdrawal Agreement isn't ratified? We may still have the spectre of the HOC voting for a no-deal Brexit and bravely and democratically telling the world to do one, but is that an advertisement for democracy?

A democratic decision was made taking all of the circumstances into account.

Brexit mess is far removed from democracy.

cgcsb

Havockk wrote: »

Rubbish. They have to be accommodated and protected.

Of course they'll be accommodated and protected. To say that we have to remove Irish symbols to appease non-Irish people who are offended by Irishness is pure nonsense.

cgcsb

Havockk wrote: »

Citizenship rights etc for those who claim British as their identity.

British nationals have the right to reside here unrestricted. Whether or not the Ulster-Scots people remain British Citizens is a matter for the home office to decide.

An Ciarraioch

cgcsb wrote: »

British nationals have the right to reside here unrestricted. Whether or not the Ulster-Scots people remain British Citizens is a matter for the home office to decide.

Assuming the GFA remains in force, they would be entitled to British citizenship, similar to nationalists currently with Irish citizenship?

cgcsb

jm08 wrote: »

Going on the GFA, a very high percentage of people from the republic don't have a problem with people's right to identify as British, Irish or Both.

That will need to fit in with the rest though. Personally, I'd like to see all flags, kerbstone painting etc. being banned in Northern Ireland while I would welcome Orange Parades etc, 12th July a national holiday treated the same as St Patrick's Day with parade on O'Connell Street, Dublin.

I do realise that people from NI are very sensitive to each other's symbolism, but lets embrace both rather than throwing one or the other out completely.

Such a tradition would be completely alien to Dublin, not having a resident 'orange' community and all. We have Chinese new year and a community to match. That being said we had the Pope's visit in Dublin despite the lack of a significant community of support, the visit would've been better handled in Mayo

[Deleted User]

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Assuming the GFA remains in force, they would be entitled to British citizenship, similar to nationalists currently with Irish citizenship?

There is no time limit on the GFA

blanch152

Havockk wrote: »

Brexit mess is far removed from democracy.

It is democracy. Sometimes the people or the parliamentarians vote for something many of us don't like or don't want, be that Brexit, Act of Union or partition. However, not liking it doesn't make it undemocratic.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Isn't doomsday being threatened if the Withdrawal Agreement isn't ratified? We may still have the spectre of the HOC voting for a no-deal Brexit and bravely and democratically telling the world to do one, but is that an advertisement for democracy?

A democratic decision was made taking all of the circumstances into account.

Lloyd George threatening ''terrible and immediate war''? No one is threatening war if the WA isn't ratified.

One thing that this whole Brexit thing shows is that British democracy is shambolic.

cgcsb

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Assuming the GFA remains in force, they would be entitled to British citizenship, similar to nationalists currently with Irish citizenship?

The GFA will have run it's course by then. Perhaps a new agreement will be in place offering the 2million people of former NI a British passport if they want in a similar way to how Irish people born in the Irish Free State before 1949 could. But that's up to the negotiators at the time. The British state may be reluctant to offer this after having washed their hands of the NI experiment. But who knows they might do for the sake of a quiet life.