Havockk wrote: » Rubbish. They have to be accommodated and protected.
blanch152 wrote: » Isn't doomsday being threatened if the Withdrawal Agreement isn't ratified? We may still have the spectre of the HOC voting for a no-deal Brexit and bravely and democratically telling the world to do one, but is that an advertisement for democracy? A democratic decision was made taking all of the circumstances into account.
jm08 wrote: » So basically, there was bribary and trickery involved in the passing of the Act of Union. Terrible war was threatened if partition wasn't accepted. Is this your idea of democracy?
jm08 wrote: » Going on the GFA, a very high percentage of people from the republic don't have a problem with people's right to identify as British, Irish or Both. That will need to fit in with the rest though. Personally, I'd like to see all flags, kerbstone painting etc. being banned in Northern Ireland while I would welcome Orange Parades etc, 12th July a national holiday treated the same as St Patrick's Day with parade on O'Connell Street, Dublin. I do realise that people from NI are very sensitive to each other's symbolism, but lets embrace both rather than throwing one or the other out completely.
Havockk wrote: » Citizenship rights etc for those who claim British as their identity.
blanch152 wrote: » Well, yes. The Irish parliament voted for the Act of Union. The Irish Dail voted to accept the Treaty. Both of those democratic actions gave legitimacy to various aspects of British rule. Unpleasant truths for those of a romantic nationalist worldview, but truths nonetheless. You can argue on exactly how much legitimacy they had, but for a significant minority of people living on this island, those decisions are part of their heritage and should be recognised and embraced in a united Ireland.
jm08 wrote: » Protected from what?
cgcsb wrote: » Lol, why? You want to effectively remove/reduce Irish symbolism for the sake of not offending self-identified non-Irish in Ireland. That's pure cuck talk in fairness. If the non-Irish resident in Ireland are offended by Irishness, then they are aware of the location of ports of entry.
An Ciarraioch wrote: » As others have said, either the current Presidential banner or a gold harp on a green background would seem sufficiently neutral for the flag, maybe take the Spanish approach to the anthem by playing the Derry/Londonderry Air. In terms of the Border poll itself, that would likely require years of preparation before holding the vote, even if one were to be called this year - some all-island civic forum would be required to debate the various political and economic issues involved, and while unionists would almost certainly abstain, business and agricultural bodies might partially represent their interests.
blanch152 wrote: » That is a very one-sided nationalist view of a united Ireland. Unless a united Ireland recognises and embraces the legitimacy of its British past, it will not embrace all of its people.
Havockk wrote: » Legitimacy?
Matt Barrett wrote: » I don't think any part of the British flag would be a runner and as arguable as it's provenance is, it's always going to be associated with the British flag first and foremost. We have variations in the former colonies already. I don't think a united Ireland wants to join the long list of those nations. Complete separation under a new flag IMO. Another reason to ditch any antiquated Saint association too.
jm08 wrote: » This New Ireland - how is it meant to differ from what we have now? The Ireland people think of is that old, RC dominated, conservative country. I think we have moved away from that and if you look at the two Ireland's now, its NI that is still extremely conservative (both nationalists and unionists).
Havockk wrote: » I'm on board about the necessity of a new flag for a New Ireland, but this is a flag of a British chivalric order. I've never seen it once, and I've lived over 40 years in the North. It's a non-runner, it is, in dead parrot parlance, dead.
blanch152 wrote: » Did you pick up on this comment? "Saint Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used as a cross-community symbol with less political baggage than either the Union Flag or the Ulster Banner, seen as pro-Unionist, or the Irish tricolour used by Irish nationalists." It's provenance predates the Act of Union, and could be seen as a return to those times.
Havockk wrote: » Did you read this article? This flag isn't connected to Ireland at all.
circadian wrote: » I'd be inclined to agree with this. As a northern nationalist living in Dublin I'd like to see a solid proposal of how a United Ireland may look should a border poll pass, before a border poll is proposed. Brexit has shown us that being unprepared for a fundamental change and not having these discussions before asking the electorate leads to absolute chaos. For me and for most people north of the border, flags won't be an issue despite it being a northern trope most people care about roofs over heads and food on the table. It's always a minority that seems to get the lions share of the media's attention in the north and I feel this misrepresents that majority of the population there. If Brexit goes as badly as expected then the north will be the hardest hit first, health service will suffer, access to produce and essential services will become strained. This will be a harsh reality for the unionists who voted remain and those that go are now on the fence having seen what a shambles the whole thing is. Ultimately, they'll want stability and quality of life and talking to my friends and family who are moderate unionists, providing food and a home for their children is far, far more important than an ideology that could possibly put them in a very dangerous position. I've quoted Carson before but I think it is possibly the most fitting quote for the state of Unionism as it has always been, but it is now laid bare and more obvious than ever before in the shambles that is Brexit;"What a fool I was! I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into Power."
blanch152 wrote: » https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick%27s_Saltire How about St. Patrick's Saltire? If it was removed from the British flag, it would symbolise independence.
Peregrinus wrote: » I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves choosing the emblems for a united Irish state. Just sayin'.
Imreoir2 wrote: » National symbols like flags are not corporate logos, they don't have to be neutral. The tri-colour as a national symbol has represented Ireland for over 100 years and I don't think there is a good reason to drop it in a UI. The justification for doing so seems to be to placate unionists, but it won't placate unionists. They will be equally opposed to a united Ireland under any flag. On the other hand, andoning the nations symbols merly creates a greivence among nationalists at their abandoment while at the same time making them available for uncontested use by disedent republicens and far right wing groups. In short you achieve nothing more than annoying the greatest supporters of a United Ireland, northern nationalists, while doing nothing to satisfy its greatest opponents, northern unionists.
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