New motor tax and VRT regime. Links + calculations

The_Conductor · 16-12-2007 11:42am

Is there any way of getting the new regime applied to cars that are currently Irish registered? If not- thats the second hand market up the creek, in favour of people hopping over the border or to the UK...... Maybe its all just something someone dreamt up to get all those northern regs down here legitimised?

Esel · 16-12-2007 1:04pm

gary the great wrote: »

I was planning on bringing a 2000 - 2001 toyota Celica in from the UK in January. If i wait till July, i can get a 2001 in without paying Vrt and probably less tax?

You'll still have to pay VRT.

gary the great · 16-12-2007 7:54pm

esel wrote: »

You'll still have to pay VRT.

But just a lot less, 20% instead of 30%?

Will just buy one in january if thats the case.

slivebloom · 17-12-2007 2:00pm

[QUOTE=u

A BMW 320d ES (CO2 131 g/km) lists for €47.800.

from the links below a 320d is 153g/km.. !!

http://www.smmtco2.co.uk/co2search2.asp

http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/searchResults.asp

E92 · 17-12-2007 2:12pm

slivebloom wrote: »

unkel wrote:

A BMW 320d ES (CO2 131 g/km) lists for €47.800.

from the links below a 320d is 153g/km.. !!

http://www.smmtco2.co.uk/co2search2.asp

http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/searchResults.asp

Which is of course wrong! Unkel's figure of 131 g/km is wrong too! It actually pollutes 128 g/km. 320d's without EfficientDynamics have the SMMT figure, but EfficientDynamics models have been on sale for a few weeks now and all 2008 MY 3 series are equipped with EfficientDynamics.

unkel · 17-12-2007 2:52pm

Dermo123 wrote: »

VRT on a NEW car is based on the manufacturers pre tax price plus VAT

Nope. Here's a link:

the amount of VRT payable is based on a percentage of the recommended retail price, which includes all taxes

slivebloom · 17-12-2007 4:03pm

Thanks for pointing that out. E92,
For my reference can to tell me where to get the correct C02 details, is there a web site?

E92 · 17-12-2007 4:21pm

slivebloom wrote: »

Thanks for pointing that out. E92,
For my reference can to tell me where to get the correct C02 details, is there a web site?

BMW UK

galwaytt · 18-12-2007 1:11pm

unkel wrote: »

Nope. Here's a link:

the amount of VRT payable is based on a percentage of the recommended retail price, which includes all taxes

Sorry Unkel - but I think that description of the link is incorrect........

The recommended retail price of a car includes taxes. Therefore, to say that tax is based on a calculation of a value which includes the very tax you're trying to work out is.............confusing !!

What that link is for is VRT on USED cars, where the OMSP is calculated based on a % of the new price, adjusted for age, etc.

VRT on new cars is quite simply (I think !), the garages' selling price and adding VRT (at the appropriate rate..), and then adding 21% VAT to the whole lot. So, a 20k net car (@20%VRT rate) from a dealer, would be: 20k car + 4k VRT + 5040 VAT = Total 29040. ( I know, brutal when you see it written down.....):eek:

If, after 3 years, the Revenue decide that it has depreciated by 30%, the OMSP of that car is Eur 20,328. So now, if I want to bring in a 3 yr old one from UK, I pay VRT (again @20% rate) on 20328, and I must cough up 4065.60

Maybe ColmMcM or E92 could chime in here with an actual working example for a new car..........

Esel · 18-12-2007 2:59pm

gary the great wrote: »

I was planning on bringing a 2000 - 2001 toyota Celica in from the UK in January. If i wait till July, i can get a 2001 in without paying Vrt and probably less tax?

Although that would be great, it means I have to wait till july to get myself a new motor!

Road tax on this will be a lot higher if you register it under the new system.

gary the great · 18-12-2007 3:45pm

So basically i'll save money by getting it before July then? But i'll pay 10% more Vrt

Esel · 18-12-2007 9:01pm

gary the great wrote: »

So basically i'll save money by getting it before July then? But i'll pay 10% more Vrt

Before July, VRT will be 30%of the OMSP, road tax will stay on the existing cubic capacity system (e.g. €590 for a 2 litre). This road tax system will apply to the car into the future.

From July, VRT will be based on CO2 figures - I would think your car would be fairly high on the scale? Road tax will also be based on emissions, and for a car like yours will probably cost a fair bit more than it would under the old system (depending on which emission band it is in obviously). Say for arguments sake it costs €800 per year, that means you will be paying €210 more each year for road tax. When you go to sell the car on, a potential purchaser looking at two similar cars, one of which costs €210 more to tax each year.....

The rule is - register a gas guzzling, high-emissions car before July, register a low emissions one after July. For future savings.

Simple really.

E92 · 18-12-2007 10:34pm

After July, you will be charged 36% VRT and €2,000 tax per annum,if you can't prove the car's emissions e.g. show them the official EU test results. That is going to reduce the number of JDM imports a lot, particularly small engined JDM cars because the changes will hit them the hardest. They will cost more in VRT and a lot more to tax, and I don't know how one is supposed to prove the emissions rating because plenty of JDM cars have different engines and were never available here or anywhere in the EU.

galwaytt · 19-12-2007 10:05am

E92 wrote: »

After July, you will be charged 36% VRT and €2,000 tax per annum,if you can't prove the car's emissions e.g. show them the official EU test results. That is going to reduce the number of JDM imports a lot, particularly small engined JDM cars because the changes will hit them the hardest. They will cost more in VRT and a lot more to tax, and I don't know how one is supposed to prove the emissions rating because plenty of JDM cars have different engines and were never available here or anywhere in the EU.

I think this is well open to challenge. The changes state the maximum applicable rate. So a dirty old, pre CO2 car, say a 97 A3 1.8t, could cost Eur2k p.a. to tax. However, a domestic registered one is less than Eur500. I think it's well open to challenge that the applicable rate for that car is in fact, 500 (or whatever). It is interesting to note that the new regs saw that the 'applicable' rate is open to appeal, which would lead me to believe that there is room for maneouvre there.

There is no question of 'calculating' equivalent CO2 readings for non-listed cars, so I think ultimately they will go on the 'old' tax system.

E92 · 19-12-2007 11:30am

galwaytt wrote: »

Maybe ColmMcM or E92 could chime in here with an actual working example for a new car..........

As far as I can tell, unkel's example on page 1 is 100% correct. VRT is done after VAT is added on after all.

copacetic · 19-12-2007 11:44am

has anyone done a calc on a bmw 320d coupe (m-sport) with full leather? (E92 I'm looking at you!). After E92 made me well aware of the new engines in the bmws I have been much more inclined to look at them.

The issue I am having is trying to work out will they pass on the savings on things like the m-sport pack and the leather.

Since they will be 150 tax if bought after July, and should come down nearly 10k, is the concensus that the various versions on carzone will have to come down more than that due to the extra tax?

eg something like this:
http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=714960

is really now only worth 48k or so?

E92 · 19-12-2007 12:32pm

copacetic wrote: »

has anyone done a calc on a bmw 320d coupe (m-sport) with full leather? (E92 I'm looking at you!). After E92 made me well aware of the new engines in the bmws I have been much more inclined to look at them.

The issue I am having is trying to work out will they pass on the savings on things like the m-sport pack and the leather.

Since they will be 150 tax if bought after July, and should come down nearly 10k, is the concensus that the various versions on carzone will have to come down more than that due to the extra tax?

eg something like this:
http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=714960

is really now only worth 48k or so?

Well a new 320d M Sport Coupé costs €62,785 with leather now, but with the VRT changes, I would expect it to cost €52,320 roughly after July, which is more than €10k. And a 320d will cost €590 to tax if registered before July, compared to €150 after July, so cars before July will be worth less no doubt about that the question is how much less will they b e worth?

For €59,720(after July compared to €64,835 now and €62,385 for a 320d now) roughly you could have the 325i with the same spec and a far nicer straight 6 growl and still have an average fuel consumption of 39.8 mpg and it would cost €430 to tax compared to €1,231 now or €590 for a 320d now.

It's difficult to say how an M Sport 3 series rides without having had the luxury of travelling in one but if the 5 series is anything to go by, it should be avoided at all costs. An SE car will likely be a lot comfier(the ride is a shade firm but far from uncomfartable), to my eyes better looking and undeniably a lot cheaper, and if I had the luxury of that kind of money in the morning I would have the SE version anyday over an M Sport.

copacetic · 19-12-2007 12:46pm

personally I like the look, wheels and interior on the m-sport (eg part leather as standard) and found the ride to be fine. However I like the SE too, but it needs a wheel upgrade, the leather is a lot more to add than the m-sport etc which brings in up a lot.

It's the price changes which would bring it into range, the 325i would be too much and I think the performace of the 4 cylinder engines gives the best value and also like the idea of the low co2 but decent performance.

I'm sure everyone on here would be the opposite, but 8 secs 0-60 is plenty fast for me. My choice would be between the 320i and 320d depending on how the prices move tbh.

Cill25 · 19-12-2007 3:54pm

Hi,

Confusing stuff!

Just wondering on classic car situation,

I brought over a 1979 Merc 230 last month and haven't yet registered it,

My understanding VRT would be approx €500 and then tax at full rate until 2009, until car is 30 years old - is this correct?

Will new regime mean classics still just on €46 per year?

Cheers,

C

unkel · 19-12-2007 4:24pm

Cill25 wrote: »

Will new regime mean classics still just on €46 per year?

Yes. See top of this thread

copacetic · 19-12-2007 5:25pm

interesting quote from BMW marketing director Michael Nugent in todays times, who says the brand is committed to passing on savings:

"From M FitzGerald:

It is depressing to read that several motor manufacturers have been supposedly "supporting the sale of 2-litre diesel models" over the years. I simply do not believe it, and suspect that this will be the excuse for maintaining their high prices.

This will particularly be the case with so-called premium marques. Do you realistically expect Audi, BMW and Mercedes to cut prices by €5,000 or more?

Last week's reader considering a BMW 320D coupé should be able to save €10,000 by waiting until June, but pigs may also fly and the Mahon Tribunal may suddenly progress smoothly.

I wonder is there a role for the Competition Authority to closely monitor pre- and post-VRT change prices. Does this body have the power to enforce competition laws or to monitor possible monopolistic type behaviour that I suspect will emerge on this issue?

The car firm quoted last week was a mainstream brand and not premium. Michael Nugent, BMW's marketing director says the brand is committed to passing on the savings. "The only reason that prices will not fall by the full amount is if we increase specifications on models at the same time as the price changes, but if that happens on some models it will be completely evident to buyers," he says.

According to the Competition Authority, it would only arise as an issue for them if the dealers were colluding to maintain the higher price, thereby engaging in price fixing.

It's really down to advocacy groups and others to highlight companies that are not passing on the full savings. As I said last week, we all have to watch the price changes carefully come July 1st.

sounds like good news to me. I'd be happy to see metallic paint and leather added as standard to a car like the 3 series coupe if they wanted to keep entry price up a bit as they should really be standard anyway, the only reason they aren't is vrt.

E92 · 19-12-2007 5:35pm

copacetic wrote: »

sounds like good news to me. I'd be happy to see metallic paint and leather added as standard to a car like the 3 series coupe if they wanted to keep entry price up a bit as they should really be standard anyway, the only reason they aren't is vrt.

Looks like we can take the VRT adjusted prices I and others mentioned before for BMW's to be fact from July 1. At least one make is bothering to do so anyway(pre tax prices for BMW's are already standardised anyway, so it's not like BMW are "subsidising" the cost of their cars for the Irish market anyway, in fact the pre tax price is a shade higher for Irekland than in Germany now because we are an RHD market and they are allowed to charge an RHD supplement). If the other premium brands like Merc and Audi don't pass on the saving, then when people see that they can get a BMW for a lot less they will most likely switch to BMW and increase BMW's sales hugely, so that in itself will force rival brands to pass on any savings available too.

copacetic · 19-12-2007 5:43pm

E92 wrote: »

Looks like we can take the VRT adjusted prices I and others mentioned before for BMW's to be fact from July 1. At least one make is bothering to do so anyway(pre tax prices for BMW's are already standardised anyway, so it's not like BMW are "subsidising" the cost of their cars for the Irish market anyway, in fact the pre tax price is a shade higher for Irekland than in Germany now because we are an RHD market and they are allowed to charge an RHD supplement). If the other premium brands like Merc and Audi don't pass on the saving, then when people see that they can get a BMW for a lot less they will most likely switch to BMW and increase BMW's sales hugely, so that in itself will force rival brands to pass on any savings available too.

agreed, audi will have to move it's equivalent to the same or less than BMW and eat the 4% extra vrt it will pay as it's diesels are mostly 20% rather than 16%. Possibly it will actually have to even reduce prices further as the tax will be a bit more on them too.
If they do I may stick to audi and look at a the 170 2.0TDI coming in the A5 or the rumoured bi-turbo 200bhp one.

Either way we are going to see a lot of knock on effects in the second hand car market. People are trying to sell 320d saloons on carzone for what a new coupe will cost in July at the moment. I'd be more than a bit unhappy if I was trying to shift one of them!

unkel · 19-12-2007 6:11pm

Thanks for the link, copacetic

So BMW is the first to commit to passing on the full savings to the customer. Hopefully all other makes will do the same. There's going to be big time naming & shaming here on the ones that don't!

copacetic wrote: »

audi will have to move it's equivalent to the same or less than BMW and eat the 4% extra vrt it will pay as it's diesels are mostly 20% rather than 16%

It will be interesting to see if they (and others) will!

E92 · 19-12-2007 6:35pm

unkel wrote: »

Thanks for the link, copacetic

So BMW is the first to commit to passing on the full savings to the customer. Hopefully all other makes will do the same. There's going to be big time naming & shaming here on the ones that don't!

It will be interesting to see if they (and others) will!

I would suggest that any VAG car(excluding Seat possibly) will have the full VRT saving available passed onto the consumer, as they will all be distributed by VAG themselves from this January(though I don't know about Seat, but Skoda, VW and Audi most definately are changing over from MDL to themselves, and renault are going direct too, but Seats are imported by the OHM group, so I don't know about them).

As for the notion of whether Audi will set the A4 price at 16% VRT, I would suggest that this would be highly unlikely, the 20% for the A4 TDI I would be fairly certain of yes, but the manufacturers are not going to be subsidising themselves!

And copacetic a 320d is comparable with a 170 bhp Audi TDI not the standard TDI, which is comparable with a 318d(as both have 143 bhp while the 320d enjoys 177 bhp).

Audi's 200 bhp 2.0 TDI whose design is IIRC copied directly from BMW's 535d(it has twin sequential turbos does it not, or just 2 ordinary turbos?)is destined for smaller cars like the A3 and also the TT apparantly(and other VAG cars, I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if the next Golf GTI has this engine available as an option). I doubt it that they will offer such an engine here, because they already have a car with around this much power, the 190 bhp 2.7 TDI, which is a V6 and is most likely a much smoother engine(well certainly a much nicer sounding engine anyway) because of the extra cylinders and would in all probability be a smoother car to drive(same reason, more cylinders=more refinement) than a 2.0 TDI of that power.

If you prefer petrol, it's worth noting that BMW's 4 cylinder petrols i.e. 318i and 320i are in the 20% VRT category which is the same as the diesel 4 cylinder Audis and are still cheaper by as much as €1500 even after VRT adjustment, and cost €290 as opposed to €150 to tax(same as 4 cyl diesel Audi), and Audi's 1.8 A4 is in the 24% VRT band.

copacetic · 19-12-2007 6:59pm

agreed on the comparable engines. I didn't mean that audi will charge 16% vrt, more that they will have to stay in same relative position to bmw to keep sales constant.

The 2.0TDI with 209bhp is planned to be in the Q5, and the new A4 in June if the motoring press is correct. So I am assuming it will go into the A5.

It may not, but the new A4 will have the 140bhp 2.0TDI initially and the 170bhp TDI in June as will the A5.

tbh I prefer audis but this change will affect a lot of peoples decisions depending on where the value is and which companies try and shaft us.

Assuming it all goes to plan and bmw price changes force audis down then a A5 S-line may be in my future, if not, the 320d msport coupe. Either one looks like a great car.

a5 sline:

port · 19-12-2007 9:02pm

A BMW car sales guy told me today that of sixty 2008 520d pre ordered in his garage for January, majority appear to be defered to July and remainder are cancelled due to the new VRT legislation being implemented in July rather than January.He told me that the average stocking charge for each car from Jan to July would be approx €2,500.00 per customer along with additional depreciation of customer's trade-in.

E92 · 19-12-2007 9:25pm

port wrote: »

A BMW car sales guy told me today that of sixty 2008 520d pre ordered in his garage for January, majority appear to be deferred to July and remainder are cancelled due to the new VRT legislation being implemented in July rather than January.He told me that the average stocking charge for each car from Jan to July would be approx €2,500.00 per customer along with additional depreciation of customer's trade-in.

Yes but the 520d is dropping it's price by at least €9,040(the cheapest 5 series from July will cost €45,210 compared €54,250 now), so even if the dealer were to charge the customer the stocking charge, you're still better off to the tune of €6,540 minimum if you choose a manual,(the auto is in the 20% VRT band so you're still €7,160(w/o stocking charge, €4,660 with stocking charge better off minimum) not to mention the fact that tax is falling from €590 to €150(€290 for Auto) because it's emissions are so low minus the reduction in the trade in price.

E92 · 20-12-2007 12:25am

copacetic wrote: »

agreed on the comparable engines. I didn't mean that Audi will charge 16% VRT, more that they will have to stay in same relative position to BMW to keep sales constant.

The 2.0TDI with 209bhp is planned to be in the Q5, and the new A4 in June if the motoring press is correct. So I am assuming it will go into the A5.

It may not, but the new A4 will have the 140bhp 2.0TDI initially and the 170bhp TDI in June as will the A5.

tbh I prefer Audis but this change will affect a lot of peoples decisions depending on where the value is and which companies try and shaft us.

Assuming it all goes to plan and BMW price changes force Audis down then a A5 S-line may be in my future, if not, the 320d msport coupe. Either one looks like a great car.

Well I've checked the VRT adjusted price of an A4 and I got €38,675 for the 2.0 TDI 143 bhp compared to the 318d ES which should retail at €37,170(both are €44,200 and €44,600 respectively now), I don't know how they compare spec wise but I'm guessing that if you specced up a 318d ES to the A4 you'd get a price almost the same as the A4, maybe a bit more, I'm sure the A4 has climate control as standard, something I know the 318d ES hasn't, though in the BMW's favour is the lower road tax and an average fuel consumption of 60.1 mpg as opposed to the Audi's 51.4 mpg. The 318i petrol averages 47.9 mpg, so as you can see petrol BMW's are very close to diesel Audis(and I should add that the diesel Audi would be one of the more frugal diesels available, the 318i petrol matches an Alfa or Saab diesel and because it's petrol has lower CO2 emissions too), in fact the 318i is 2 g/km better than a 2.0 TDI for CO2, even though the A4 is 3.5 mpg more economical.
A 318d SE after VRT adjustment would cost €39,710, which I duly note is about a grand more than the equivalent Audi. A 318i would cost €35,570 in ES spec and €37,450 in SE spec after VRT compared to an A4 1.8TFSI(though the Audi has more power at 160 bhp) which should retail for €39,770 after VRT adjustment, however for only €30 more an SE spec 320i which has 170 bhp and averages 46.3 mpg with €290 tax compared to the 1.8TFSI A4's average of 39.8 mpg and €430 tax.

Here is Audi's launch plan for next year or so(this is their launch plan for Germany though, so a few months more for us). A 170 bhp(125kW) A4 and A5 are on the cards within the next3&6 months respectively in Germany.

According to this, there will be a facelifted(Produktaufwertung) A6 in the middle of next year.

Max_Damage · 20-12-2007 12:34am

Don't mean to interrupt here, but I just need to know something...

While I haven't read the whole thread, I just want to know, say for instance I bought a 1987 Nissan Micra 1.0 in the UK or wherever after next July, since there is no CO2 rating nonsense on a car of that age, what would the tax/VRT and all of that roughly be on it?

New motor tax and VRT regime. Links + calculations

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