New motor tax and VRT regime. Links + calculations

copacetic

you would pay 2k in tax a year if you have no CO2 figure or cert. i.e a lot more than the car is worth!

Max_Damage

copacetic wrote: »

you would pay 2k in tax a year if you have no CO2 figure or cert. i.e a lot more than the car is worth!

That's bloody ridiculous. Fúcking fascist government. :mad:

Especially when CO2 hasn't been proven fully towards this 'global warming' nonsense.

copacetic

E92 wrote: »

Well I've checked the VRT adjusted price of an A4 and I got €38,675 for the 2.0 TDI 143 bhp compared to the 318d ES which should retail at €37,170(both are €44,200 and €44,600 respectively now), I don't know how they compare spec wise but I'm guessing that if you specced up a 318d ES to the A4 you'd get a price almost the same as the A4, maybe a bit more, I'm sure the A4 has climate control as standard, something I know the 318d ES hasn't, though in the BMW's favour is the lower road tax and an average fuel consumption of 60.1 mpg as opposed to the Audi's 51.4 mpg. The 318i petrol averages 47.9 mpg, so as you can see petrol BMW's are very close to diesel Audis(and I should add that the diesel Audi would be one of the more frugal diesels available, the 318i petrol matches an Alfa or Saab diesel and because it's petrol has lower CO2 emissions too), in fact the 318i is 2 g/km better than a 2.0 TDI for CO2, even though the A4 is 3.5 mpg more economical.
A 318d SE after VRT adjustment would cost €39,710, which I duly note is about a grand more than the equivalent Audi. A 318i would cost €35,570 in ES spec and €37,450 in SE spec after VRT compared to an A4 1.8TFSI(though the Audi has more power at 160 bhp) which should retail for €39,770 after VRT adjustment, however for only €30 more an SE spec 320i which has 170 bhp and averages 46.3 mpg with €290 tax compared to the 1.8TFSI A4's average of 39.8 mpg and €430 tax.

Here is Audi's launch plan for next year or so(this is their launch plan for Germany though, so a few months more for us). A 170 bhp(125kW) A4 and A5 are on the cards within the next3&6 months respectively in Germany.

According to this, there will be a facelifted(Produktaufwertung) A6 in the middle of next year.

yeah, thats the list I have too, it's on most of the sites and seems mostly right but the 209bhp 2.0TDI isn't on there. people seem to think that is because this is a definite list and changes could come based on development schedules.

I agree with all your figures, my point is really that they may all go out the window if BMW do pass on all the savings. Audi, Lexus and Mercedes will sell next to nothing if they are being well beaten on price by ultra low tax, decent performace bmws.

However on the other point of view this could bring the BMW downmarket and there could be even more 3 series on the roads which may not be what they want? We could end up more like the uk where there are more 3 series saloons than mondeos on the road.

It is by pricing that the 'premium' marques remain premium, if they come down they will really force the entire market down, we could really see shakeup and see mondeos, mazda 6s, avensis etc have to come down in price to sell against a 3 series that is much closer to them on price.

Interesting times ahead!

copacetic

Max_Damage wrote: »

Especially when CO2 hasn't been proven fully towards this 'global warming' nonsense.

really? says who? even the americans agree now, it's appears to be just you left.

unkel

copacetic wrote: »

Interesting times ahead!

Indeed

copacetic wrote: »

Audi, Lexus and Mercedes will sell next to nothing if they are being well beaten on price by ultra low tax, decent performace bmws.

Agreed. Maybe some or all of them are close to getting similarly low CO2 figures as BMW in the near future. If not, they're in for commercial trouble! Although the importance of the Irish market remains very limited compared to the rest of the EU and indeed, the rest of the world

copacetic wrote: »

this could bring the BMW downmarket and there could be even more 3 series on the roads which may not be what they want? We could end up more like the uk where there are more 3 series saloons than mondeos on the road

That's a non-issue. Any mainstream manufacturer (we're talking BMW here, not Bugatti) will always want to maximise profit by maximising both margin and number of cars sold

Max_Damage

copacetic wrote: »

really? says who? even the americans agree now, it's appears to be just you left.

An example:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6772058898203776825&q=Global+Warming+Swindle&total=210&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Anyway, I don't want to go off topic. Continue.

copacetic

Max_Damage wrote: »

An example:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6772058898203776825&q=Global+Warming+Swindle&total=210&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Anyway, I don't want to go off topic. Continue.

well don't have the last word by posting a link to a video rubbished by it's own contributors then..

E92

copacetic wrote: »

However on the other point of view this could bring the BMW downmarket and there could be even more 3 series on the roads which may not be what they want? We could end up more like the UK where there are more 3 series saloons than Mondeos on the road.

It is by pricing that the 'premium' marques remain premium, if they come down they will really force the entire market down, we could really see shakeup and see mondeos, mazda 6s, avensis etc have to come down in price to sell against a 3 series that is much closer to them on price.

Interesting times ahead!

Indeed, however even the cheapest 3 series will remain at least 9 grand dearer than the cheapest Toyota Avensis after the VRT adjustment and I would remind you that BMWs in the UK still have superb resale values. They might sell a lot more of them now than before, but the brand is still just as aspirational as before for most British buyers. It is still very much perceived as a premium brand there, the reason the 3 series is so popular in the UK is because you can have one as a company car for less than a Mondeo because the contract hire rates lower than a Mondeo because the resale value is so much lower in a Mondeo. This applies to Merc and Audi just as much as it does for BMW. The cars will sell for less than before because they are worth less than before, but who's to say that the resale value is going to take a dive? If they are worth less then who's to say more people won't buy them, because they may now be in the price range of more peoples' budgets, and the car is perceived as better value. The very low tax rate on the 4 and even 6 cylinder BMW's(335i and 135i excluded) will make them a cheaper car to run. Even the 330i and 530i will cost €600 to tax, and you're getting 3 litres of straight 6 power and 272 bhp for only a tenner more than a 4 cylinder 2.0 litre now. Just look at Toyota here, the biggest seller by a country mile and their used cars are still very expensive.

TontoMurphy

Picking up a new Passat in 1st week in Jan.
Tax on that day and forever more will be €590 per year. Exactly same car bought in July will be €290 (Band C 141-155 grams per km). Tell me how 2 identical cars can have such a radically different taxation system.

Might take my chances and "sorry guard, i'm waiting on log book" until July.

Per usual, those eejits an government buildings haven;t thought about anything and just grabbed the first idea that came into their head and ran with it....

The_Conductor

TontoMurphy wrote: »

Picking up a new Passat in 1st week in Jan.
Tax on that day and forever more will be €590 per year. Exactly same car bought in July will be €290 (Band C 141-155 grams per km). Tell me how 2 identical cars can have such a radically different taxation system.

Might take my chances and "sorry guard, i'm waiting on log book" until July.

Per usual, those eejits an government buildings haven;t thought about anything and just grabbed the first idea that came into their head and ran with it....

Seriously- write to Minister Gormley and complain.
The July date was agreed in conjunction with the car industry- it did not have consumers in mind. As for the two regimes running parallel with each other- I couldn't agree more.

Minister Gormley's address is:

Minister John Gormley
Department of the Environment
Custom House
Dublin 1

I would also suggest that you ring the Motor Tax Policy unit of the Department and make your feelings known. Fewer than 30 people in the whole country have rang to complain so far. Their phone number is 01-8882261

They propose to run the 2 regimes in parallel with each other, possibly for a number of years, before eventually phasing out the old scheme as the older cars are retired from active duty. I've a Volvo estate- it could well be on the road in 15 years time- and I went to a lot of trouble to get a nicely specced 1.9 litre diesel- only 146g/km emissions- and yet I'm going to get whacked. Idiots.

S.

E92

unkel wrote: »

Agreed. Maybe some or all of them are close to getting similarly low CO2 figures as BMW in the near future. If not, they're in for commercial trouble! Although the importance of the Irish market remains very limited compared to the rest of the EU and indeed, the rest of the world

I often wonder about this. Is the Irish market really that unimportant? Because BMW, VW, Opel, Renault, Toyota, Suzuki, Nissan and Ford all import models just for us, 316i, Golf and Jetta 1.6 with no FSI technology, 1.6 FSI Passat(now gone), 1.6 Vectra, Corolla, 1.6 Avensis, 1.6 Laguna, the old Laguna had special diesels(Euro 3 only) for Ireland, SX4 saloon, Tiida saloon, 1.4 Focus saloon, Style and Zetec Focus saloon, non Ti-VCT Focus saloon, 1.6 108 bhp and 1.8 TDCi 99 bhp Mondeo saloon and estate(the UK gets these engines in hatchback form) are all Irish specials.

If the Irish market was that unimportant to them, don't you think they wouldn't bother importing these? And also they are able to remove items of equipment specially for us too like air con which has been standard on Focus size cars in the UK for quite a long time now, but apart from the Golf, is still not standard here.

disley

http://http://www.dvla.gov.uk/media/pdf/forms/v149.pdf

These are the Uk CO2 Taxes looks like another rip off here

macplaxton

disley wrote: »

http://http://www.dvla.gov.uk/media/pdf/forms/v149.pdf

These are the Uk CO2 Taxes looks like another rip off here

Sorry, I'm late to the party here. I've been away.

Is it not EU regs to have a taxation system based on emissions? In the UK it applies to vehicles registered after a 1st March 2001, but I think it's based on the worldwide first registration date. So if I imported into the UK a 1600cc motor first registered somewhere in 1999, then I'd be paying £180 VED annually.

It seems a bit mad to charge VRT based on emissions if the car is say from 1990 and no data is available and getting clobbered for top dollar duty. Surely the compromised here is to get a cut-off date sorted so that the old scale can be retained for pre-whatever year?

I think a letter to the clown that made a hash of translating the EU directive is in order - it looks overdone and very anti-consumer.

Bee

smccarrick wrote: »

Seriously- write to Minister Gormley and complain.
The July date was agreed in conjunction with the car industry- it did not have consumers in mind. As for the two regimes running parallel with each other- I couldn't agree more.

Minister Gormley's address is:

Minister John Gormley
Department of the Environment
Custom House
Dublin 1

I would also suggest that you ring the Motor Tax Policy unit of the Department and make your feelings known. Fewer than 30 people in the whole country have rang to complain so far. Their phone number is 01-8882261

They propose to run the 2 regimes in parallel with each other, possibly for a number of years, before eventually phasing out the old scheme as the older cars are retired from active duty. I've a Volvo estate- it could well be on the road in 15 years time- and I went to a lot of trouble to get a nicely specced 1.9 litre diesel- only 146g/km emissions- and yet I'm going to get whacked. Idiots.

S.

Friend read this thread!

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=69742&page=5

Christmas Message from the Minister for the Environment to Owners of High Emissions Cars.

Dear High-Emissions Motorist,

Now that Christmas is approaching, I would like to announce a special gift for all owners of high-emissions vehicles. I would like you to continue to enjoy your polluting ways and I have therefore ensured that my new annual motor tax system will not penalise you. You will just continue to pay your motor tax on the same basis as you always have. To reward you for your choice of vehicle, my new system will also ensure that you will enjoy a discounted rate of motor tax after 1st July 2008. While the rates for new high-emissions cars will rise substantially after this date, you will be protected & will continue to enjoy the current lower ones.

For those of you who have not yet purchased your gas guzzler, I am giving you another six months during which you will be able to do so. And you really should. If you buy one before 1st July 2008, I will ensure that you enjoy all the same benefits as those who have already made this choice. You will also get the discounted rate of motor tax after July 1st. As an added bonus, the trade-in value of your vehicle will probably rise because it will continue to benefit from the lower tax rate indefinitely.

Don’t worry about those idiots who believed us and have bought their low-emissions car in the last few years. As they’re already signed up, we will just rip them off. I have ensured that their cars will continue to be stuck on the high motor tax rates permanently. After July 1st, they will be at a serious disadvantage and their cars will probably depreciate heavily as a result. To make certain of this, I have decided that my new tax rates will also apply to imported used cars. Low emissions ones imported after July 1st will benefit from much lower motor tax rates than identical ones already registered here. I really can’t stop congratulating myself on the cleverness of this – it will just crucify the resale value of all existing low emissions cars. I’m sure you will take great pleasure in the fact that those who have already chosen the cleanest cars (e.g. the Toyota Prius and family-sized diesels like the Skoda Octavia TDi) will probably fare worst of all.

Once again, my message is clear – continue your high emissions motoring & I will continue to look after you. I wish you a Happy Christmas and pleasant motoring in the new year.

Yours Sincerely,

John Gormless

Your Green Environment Minister,
Supporting High-Emissions Motoring in Ireland.

Bee

TontoMurphy wrote: »

Picking up a new Passat in 1st week in Jan.
Tax on that day and forever more will be €590 per year. Exactly same car bought in July will be €290 (Band C 141-155 grams per km). Tell me how 2 identical cars can have such a radically different taxation system.

Might take my chances and "sorry guard, i'm waiting on log book" until July.

Per usual, those eejits an government buildings haven;t thought about anything and just grabbed the first idea that came into their head and ran with it....

This is a decent stab at a web page highlighting the rip-off you are rightfully growling about!

http://members.lycos.co.uk/irishmotortax2008/Index.htm

CivilServant

Where's the old link gone, I'm considering if it still could be worthwhile importing in the first half of 08.

Esel

CivilServant wrote: »

Where's the old link gone, I'm considering if it still could be worthwhile importing in the first half of 08.

Basically, import a high-polluting gas guzzler now, but wait until July to import a green car.

Mr Magnolia

To purchase a 1.8TDCI Mondeo now (149mg) would cost around 32k with VRT at 30%.

Under the new system the VRT will be 20% making the cost ~29k.

Is this about right?

Esel

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

To purchase a 1.8TDCI Mondeo now (149mg) would cost around 32k with VRT at 30%.

Under the new system the VRT will be 20% making the cost ~29k.

Is this about right?

I make it about €29.5K.

Calculation is: 32/1.3*1.2

E92

No because the 1.8 is in the 25% VRT category at the moment. It will go down to 20% in July. The 2.0 TDCi is in the 30%category now, but IIRC is going down to 24% in July.

E92

esel wrote: »

I make it about €29.5K.

Calculation is: 32/1.3*1.2

Calculation is 32k/0.7*0.8(but as it's actually 25%, calculation is really 32k/0.75*0.8 which gives 30,000).

Mr Magnolia

Yeah, thanks esel.


/walks off muttering

The_Conductor

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

To purchase a 1.8TDCI Mondeo now (149mg) would cost around 32k with VRT at 30%.

Under the new system the VRT will be 20% making the cost ~29k.

Is this about right?

Yes, however the VRT is only half of the equation- from today the car tax on said 1.8TDCI is 745 Euro per year- but if you wait until July its only 290 Euro per year. In addition the depreciation on your January car is probably around 15-20% higher immediately (more the older the car gets), factoring in the vastly lower road tax. Gah.... fecking hell.

Esel

E92 wrote: »

Calculation is 32k/0.7*0.8(but as it's actually 25%, calculation is really 32k/0.75*0.8 which gives 30,000).

Simple maths tell me the following:

If the VRT-inclusive (say rate is 30%) price of a car is €32K,

then €32K = 130% of the ex-VRT price

therefore the ex-VRT price is 32K divided by 1.3 (NOT x 0.7 !!!)

E92

esel wrote: »

Simple maths tell me the following:

If the VRT-inclusive (say rate is 30%) price of a car is €32K,

then €32K = 130% of the ex-VRT price

therefore the ex-VRT price is 32K divided by 1.3 (NOT x 0.7 !!!)

You're wrong.

See the first page of this sticky. If a car has 30% VRT, then 30% of the total price is VRT. That's why my way is right;).

Mr Magnolia

smccarrick wrote: »

Yes, however the VRT is only half of the equation- from today the car tax on said 1.8TDCI is 745 Euro per year- but if you wait until July its only 290 Euro per year. In addition the depreciation on your January car is probably around 15-20% higher immediately (more the older the car gets), factoring in the vastly lower road tax. Gah.... fecking hell.

Thanks Shane. Did they try to justify the peculiar tax set-up between now and July? The car was ~€500 to tax, it's now €745, only to become €290 in July...

Esel

E92 wrote: »

You're wrong.

See the first page of this sticky. If a car has 30% VRT, then 30% of the total price is VRT. That's why my way is right;).

So that's what 'ad valorem' means! Never knew that.

The_Conductor

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

Thanks Shane. Did they try to justify the peculiar tax set-up between now and July? The car was ~€500 to tax, it's now €745, only to become €290 in July...

I think it was 684 to tax previously. Unfortunately there is no explanation for the peculiar tax setup- its a case of old cars and new cars. Old cars will continue to be taxed on the old regime- even after the 1st of July, so a 1.8TDCI bought on the 29th of June will be taxed at the E745 level forever after, while if its bought two days later it'd only be E290 per annum (and forever after).

Do write to Minister Gormley and complain- because it really is an unfair taxation regime on those who bought environmentally friendly cars (low emission cars) previously in good faith, who will now have to continue to pay prohibitive road tax while those who purchase new cars won't (and thats totally ignoring the depreciation issue).

unkel

esel wrote: »

So that's what 'ad valorem' means!

Not quite. 'Ad valorem' just means the tax is based on the price. The price can still either include the tax (i.e. VRT) or exclude the tax (i.e. VAT)

cyborg

smccarrick wrote: »

I think it was 684 to tax previously. Unfortunately there is no explanation for the peculiar tax setup- its a case of old cars and new cars. Old cars will continue to be taxed on the old regime- even after the 1st of July, so a 1.8TDCI bought on the 29th of June will be taxed at the E745 level forever after, while if its bought two days later it'd only be E290 per annum (and forever after).

Do write to Minister Gormley and complain- because it really is an unfair taxation regime on those who bought environmentally friendly cars (low emission cars) previously in good faith, who will now have to continue to pay prohibitive road tax while those who purchase new cars won't (and thats totally ignoring the depreciation issue).

Don't know where these E745 684 etc figures are coming from, tax on a 1.8 is 484 rising to 530 post feb.