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The Hazards of Belief

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    #9242
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,094 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    It also ignores the obvious point that folks here know more about the hazards of Christianity, particularly Catholicism, from personal experience.
    Which gives rise to the observation that, in terms of its presence in or impact on Ireland and Irish people generally, Islam is hugely over-represented in the criticisms of religion that appear in this thread.

    There may be reasons for that, but the point is that the perception that criticism of Islam is avoided or suppressed in this forum is massively at variance with the observed reality. Those who have this impression may be suffering from the hazards of a belief of their own.


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    #9243
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

    What he "apologized" for, and it was part of the bit, was the related ignorance about Islam, not his mentioning a golden horse. He was not saying "Sorry I mentioned a horse" he was saying "Sorry if my mentioning it leaves you wondering what horse, what the hell is he talking about"?

    The joke here, a feigned apology for the purposes of humor, is that the example he uses is liable to leave a Muslim thinking "What the hell is he talking about". His entire point was that his ignorance, and that of his audience, means trying to make jokes about Islam would be pointless. And he is using the "horse" to highlight he has no idea about Islam, and neither does that audience.

    So in fact you not getting the joke at all, which you patently seem not to have, is kinda making his entire point for him. You are the very person his bit was making comedy about.


    Jesus of course I understood that! ffs!

    Anyway, get back to sleeping furiously ...


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    #9244
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    It is not so clear you do understand it, despite the snide and uncalled for pointless empty meaningless dig in your second sentence. You are here complaining he apologized, and using words like "groveling" to describe it. Despite none of that actually having happened. Then when corrected on the narrative you have created out of nowhere, you suddenly declare you were understanding it all along. Color me intensely skeptical I guess.


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    #9245
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,019 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Hector, did you see my post about World Hijab Day? Just a few posts above your first one.

    It would help if you'd actually read a thread (never mind the forum as a whole) before making criticisms of it. Unless, of course, you want to put yourself on the same level as religious proselytizers who make claims which are not only without a shred of evidence to back them up, but are easily contradicted with the available evidence.

    Your call :)

    There is no future for Boards as long as it stays on the complete toss that is the Vanilla "platform", we've given those Canadian twats far more chances than they deserve.



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    #9246
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,010 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    The lack of any effort to justify remarks made is most telling.



    By and large it seems a good addition to the forum rules overall.


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    #9247
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-47282536/shamima-begum-is-british-bride-says-she-s-sorry-for-deaths
    If this isn't a hazard of belief I don't know what is ...


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    #9248
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-47282536/shamima-begum-is-british-bride-says-she-s-sorry-for-deaths
    If this isn't a hazard of belief I don't know what is ...
    It seems they are arranging a Bangladeshi passport for her, to replace the British one she burned. Seems like a fair deal.
    Ms Begum's mother had received a letter from the Home Office on Tuesday. The letter said Home Secretary Sajid Javid had taken the decision to remove her daughter's British citizenship and the order to do so had subsequently been made.
    It asked her mother to let Ms Begum know of the decision and inform her she has a right to appeal.
    Whitehall sources confirmed the home secretary had taken the decision.
    She is believed to be of Bangladeshi heritage but when asked by the BBC, she said did not have a Bangladesh passport and had never been to the country.
    A Home Office spokesman said while he could not discuss individual cases, "we don't leave people stateless".
    Ms Begum has said she does not regret travelling to Syria and was partly inspired by videos of fighters beheading hostages, as well as by videos showing "the good life" under IS.
    However, she said she did not agree with everything the group had done.
    "I actually do support some British values and I am willing to go back to the UK and settle back again and rehabilitate and that stuff," she told the BBC.
    In fairness a brutally honest girl, and one who has been through a lot.
    But not the kind of person whose beliefs are suited to life in a western democracy, or who deserves to live in one, or who brings anything positive to one.
    Meanwhile in Idlib, the other corner of Syria where the last remnants of IS have gathered, people with absolutely no Irish connections are complaining of having difficulty getting evacuated to Ireland.
    The letter, seen by RTÉ News, says that some IHAP beneficiaries from the last scheme have had problems exiting Syria to travel to Ireland - particularly from the province of Idlib - and say the situation in Syria remains extremely dangerous.


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    #9249
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,094 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    In fairness a brutally honest girl, and one who has been through a lot.
    But not the kind of person whose beliefs are suited to life in a western democracy, or who deserves to live in one, or who brings anything positive to one.
    Rec, previously you've been quite concerned about the fate of British children who are groomed online for sexual purposes by sinister Muslim gangs, and then subjected to traumatising experiences by those same gangs.

    Why the change of heart?


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    #9250
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Rec, previously you've been quite concerned about the fate of British children who are groomed online for sexual purposes by sinister Muslim gangs, and then subjected to traumatising experiences by those same gangs.
    Why the change of heart?
    If you're referring to vulnerable non-muslim English girls being groomed on the streets by British Asian gangs for sexual purposes, I don't see much commonality.
    In this situation, we have a British Asian girl who is the product of her own family values, and the values/beliefs of her community, which are all very much at odds with what most people would call normal "British" values.


    Of course there is a definite unfairness in her current predicament. I don't see that she has committed any crime in the UK. There is a dodgy travel ban in existence but it came in after she had already travelled.

    And there are plenty of Islamist activists in the UK who are much more damaging than she is. So it seems she is being scapegoated to some extent. But there are two ways of looking at this. Either a lot more of them (who were too cowardly or too comfortable to actually travel to the Islamic State) should also be stripped of their British citizenship, or else she should be given hers back. I'd go with the former.


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    #9251
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,010 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    recedite wrote: »
    If you're referring to vulnerable non-muslim English girls being groomed on the streets by British Asian gangs for sexual purposes, I don't see much commonality.
    In this situation, we have a British Asian girl who is the product of her own family values, and the values/beliefs of her community, which are all very much at odds with what most people would call normal "British" values.
    .


    No, she was islamised/groomed by extremists. But of course you can't face admitting that.


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    #9252
    TomSweeney
    Registered Users Posts: 3,193 ✭✭✭TomSweeney


    Odhinn wrote: »
    No, she was islamised/groomed by extremists. But of course you can't face admitting that.


    Sure she was , but did she regret it ?

    She's 19 and she has no regrets, she saw heads in bins and it didn't phase her - she said they deserved it they were infidels, at least if she regretted it all and really wanted to change and come back as an integrated citizen - maybe I could have sympathy.
    Again 19 is old enough to know better.

    I really don't see the similarity with a 13 year old girl on fb that is groomed and then raped by gangs - she is totally innocent in all this.
    Begum is not.


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    #9253
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,010 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    TomSweeney wrote: »
    Sure she was , but did she regret it ?

    ................




    Evidently not, but seeing as she was never taken from that enviroment, its not that suprising - along the lines of Patty Hearst and the SLA


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    #9254
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Odhinn wrote: »
    No, she was islamised/groomed by extremists. But of course you can't face admitting that.
    She was Islamised from birth, in England, which is obviously a western country. And formerly a Christian one. Her family are downplaying their own role in all this, and talking about her "escape" from IS as if she had been kidnapped or tricked into being there. But nobody wakes up one morning and suddenly decides that it would be a good idea if an Islamic Caliphate ruled the world.

    She may have been lured into actually joining those who were setting up the Islamic State via the internet. She believed it would be the start of a vast Caliphate, and it would provide a good and virtuous lifestyle for those who joined early on. As did all the others involved in the project. But the groundwork for those kind of beliefs was done long before that, and it was done a lot closer to home.


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    #9255
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,010 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    recedite wrote: »
    She was Islamised from birth.......,




    You've sources for this?


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    #9256
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Its well known she was born into Islam.


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    #9257
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,010 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    recedite wrote: »
    Its well known she was born into Islam.




    As ever you're conflating Islam with its militant offshoots. Try again - do you have any evidence she was islamised "from birth"?


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    #9258
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,019 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    recedite wrote: »
    in England, which is obviously a western country. And formerly a Christian one.

    So they should have kept all those bloody non-christians out then?

    Are atheists ok? Jews?

    Or is it just muslims you have a problem with?

    There is no future for Boards as long as it stays on the complete toss that is the Vanilla "platform", we've given those Canadian twats far more chances than they deserve.



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    #9259
    QuintusFabius
    Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭QuintusFabius


    Jesus, "Atheists" defending ISIS now.


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    #9260
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,019 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Who is?

    There is no future for Boards as long as it stays on the complete toss that is the Vanilla "platform", we've given those Canadian twats far more chances than they deserve.



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    #9261
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,094 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    TomSweeney wrote: »
    Sure she was , but did she regret it ? . . .

    I really don't see the similarity with a 13 year old girl on fb that is groomed and then raped by gangs - she is totally innocent in all this.
    Begum is not.
    I have to tell you that lots of kids who are groomed online for sexual purposes and then abused don't "regret it". They see themselves as being involved in consensual sexual relationships, and/or consider themselves to be in love with their abusers. So this is not a point of difference between Begum's case and others.

    Rec is at least honest in admitting that he considers the point of difference between Begum and other victims of online grooming to be the fact that she was raised a Muslim and he doesn't shy away from the logical implication of his position, which is that Muslims generally should be not be entitled to the equal protection of the laws, regardless of whether they have travelled in support of ISIS.

    Is Rec really somebody you want to tog out with, Tom?


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    #9262
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Who is?

    I wonder if your question will ever be answered.... :pac:


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    #9263
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,175 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    QuintusFabius wrote: »
    Jesus, "Atheists" defending ISIS now.
    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Who is?


    I'm going to repost something i said on the thread in AH about this woman. I think it is germane


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    I never posted anything that would make you think that. You, like a lot of others here, see everything in black and white. Either a poster agrees completely with what you post or they want the complete opposite. there is no nuance, no shades of grey. No scope for intelligent debate. You dont want one, you just want to rant and rave and have your little fantasies about killing people you dont like. I was completely correct when I mentioned the Daily Mail comments section.


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    #9264
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Jesus H Christ .... I just can't believe this thread, forget about the argument of whether she was groomed/regrets it/ has Stockholm syndrome etc - surely people at least agree it's a "Hazard of belief" - come on give me that much, restore my faith in modern day rationality here...


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    #9265
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I have to tell you that lots of kids who are groomed online for sexual purposes and then abused don't "regret it". They see themselves as being involved in consensual sexual relationships, and/or consider themselves to be in love with their abusers. So this is not a point of difference between Begum's case and others.

    Rec is at least honest in admitting that he considers the point of difference between Begum and other victims of online grooming to be the fact that she was raised a Muslim and he doesn't shy away from the logical implication of his position, which is that Muslims generally should be not be entitled to the equal protection of the laws, regardless of whether they have travelled in support of ISIS.

    Is Rec really somebody you want to tog out with, Tom?

    Some do, most don't , do you think the girls that were being raped as they were vomiting from drinking too much thought this ???
    Sorry to be graphic, but none of the grooming victims I've read interviews with had a remote iota of Stockholm syndrome.
    Massive difference between these two types of people, I don't think it's fair at all to compare them.


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    #9266
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,094 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Jesus H Christ .... I just can't believe this thread, forget about the argument of whether she was groomed/regrets it/ has Stockholm syndrome etc - surely people at least agree it's a "Hazard of belief" - come on give me that much, restore my faith in modern day rationality here...
    No one in the thread has disputed this, so far as I can see. Am I missing something?


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    #9267
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,094 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Some do, most don't , do you think the girls that were being raped as they were vomiting from drinking too much thought this ???
    Sorry to be graphic, but none of the grooming victims I've read interviews with had a remote iota of Stockholm syndrome.
    Massive difference between these two types of people, I don't think it's fair at all to compare them.
    Sure, not all victims of abuse identify with their abusers. But it's not uncommon and, in general, when it happens our response is not to repudiate the victims or deny them our support. So that isn't an obvious reason for doing so in Begum's case.


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    #9268
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,010 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Jesus H Christ .... I just can't believe this thread, forget about the argument of whether she was groomed/regrets it/ has Stockholm syndrome etc - surely people at least agree it's a "Hazard of belief" - come on give me that much, restore my faith in modern day rationality here...




    Nobody has said otherwise.


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    #9269
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Odhinn wrote: »
    As ever you're conflating Islam with its militant offshoots. Try again - do you have any evidence she was islamised "from birth"?
    You used the word "islamised" so its up to you to define what you mean by it, if that is something other than "embracing Islam".
    Are you saying she was a militant?
    My impression is that her role was more that of a housewife/breeding stock, which is the proper role of a woman according to Islam.
    She has said that her last husband was Dutch, so I'd be fairly sure he was one of the foreign IS fighters, and up to his elbows in the blood of innocent Syrians.


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    #9270
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Rec is at least honest in admitting that he considers the point of difference between Begum and other victims of online grooming to be the fact that she was raised a Muslim and he doesn't shy away from the logical implication of his position, which is that Muslims generally should be not be entitled to the equal protection of the laws, regardless of whether they have travelled in support of ISIS.
    Is Rec really somebody you want to tog out with, Tom?
    In fact I said no such thing, and that those are blatant lies.


    But rather than focusing in on trying to get you no-platformed, as seems to have become the fashionable tactic around this forum of late, I'll skip on to clarify the points raised.
    Th English girls targeted by Muslim rape gangs in the northern English towns were not generally the victims of online grooming, they were generally vulnerable or troubled teenagers who were approached while out on the streets.


    Secondly I don't consider a Muslim who watched online videos glorifying the early victories of Islamic State, and who became enamoured with the whole project, to have been "groomed".
    You makes your choices, and you picks your side.


    Of course Muslims are entitled to the same protection under secular laws as anyone else. The question is, what happens when their beliefs are incompatible with western values and western laws?
    You makes your choices, and you picks your side.


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    #9271
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,010 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    recedite wrote: »
    You used the word "islamised" so its up to you to define what you mean by it, if that is something other than "embracing Islam".
    Are you saying she was a militant?
    My impression is that her role was more that of a housewife/breeding stock, which is the proper role of a woman according to Islam.
    She has said that her last husband was Dutch, so I'd be fairly sure he was one of the foreign IS fighters, and up to his elbows in the blood of innocent Syrians.


    Waffle, evasion and nonsense.


    You stated "She was Islamised from birth, in England". Where is your evidence?


This discussion has been closed.
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