Royal Canal on a Road Bike

TooObvious · 20-05-2021 10:15am

Yesterday I took the brompton for a spin from Ballymahon towards Clondra (4km shy) and back again. On a sunny day the scenery on parts of this cycle is amazing. I'm more of a mountain person than the flatlands, but there was a section of canal in the ledwithstown area (about 4km from Brannigan Harbour) where the canal is raised above the surrounding land significantly which absolutely took my breath away.

I don't ever remember Ballymahon looking this nice as a kid.

KevRossi · 21-05-2021 11:05am

a148pro wrote: »

This really. Good for kids, lined by weed covered embankment, much less scenic than canal.

This is a good stop off point if you're with kids. It's beside Moate.

https://dunnasi.ie/

https://www.google.com/maps/place/D%C3%BAn+Na+S%C3%AD+Amenity+%26+Heritage+Park/@53.4007878,-7.737732,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipPqwoT1c98yQd940hQa7kBOAU7g0RHy4yFZYKXh!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipPqwoT1c98yQd940hQa7kBOAU7g0RHy4yFZYKXh%3Dw129-h86-k-no!7i5184!8i3456!4m23!1m17!4m16!1m3!2m2!1d-7.779345!2d53.3897!1m3!2m2!1d-7.7818228!2d53.3994272!1m6!1m2!1s0x485c4906ff544fc9:0xb365be5ac1c1df6f!2sAthlone,+Southern+Station+Rd,+Cloghanboy+West,+Athlone,+Co.+Westmeath!2m2!1d-7.9357372!2d53.4268901!3e1!3m4!1s0x485db4a1daa647e5:0xfbfed14c8238b55a!8m2!3d53.4002064!4d-7.7376366!5m1!1e3

TooObvious · 21-05-2021 1:04pm

That's a great stop of for the kids, has a coffee shop too if i recall (essential these days by all accounts).

magicbastarder · 23-05-2021 8:47pm

copying this from another thread about cycling infrastructure in north dublin; not sure if this topic is going to gain enough legs to merit a thread of its own, but we can create one if that need arises:

apparently public consultation on the royal canal greenway out past blanchardstown is opening up again, i think on tuesday.
i've seen a mail from a local residents' association that they have 'reliable information' that the north bank proposal will be presented to councillors as the preferred option, which is what this residents' association is campaigning against.

i took the opportunity to mail the councillors and express my support for the north bank option anyway.

Brock Turnpike · 24-05-2021 10:35am

magicbastarder wrote: »

copying this from another thread about cycling infrastructure in north dublin; not sure if this topic is going to gain enough legs to merit a thread of its own, but we can create one if that need arises:

apparently public consultation on the royal canal greenway out past blanchardstown is opening up again, i think on tuesday.
i've seen a mail from a local residents' association that they have 'reliable information' that the north bank proposal will be presented to councillors as the preferred option, which is what this residents' association is campaigning against.

i took the opportunity to mail the councillors and express my support for the north bank option anyway.

Do you have any detail on it? Very interested in this.

knockoutned · 24-05-2021 11:29am

magicbastarder wrote: »

copying this from another thread about cycling infrastructure in north dublin; not sure if this topic is going to gain enough legs to merit a thread of its own, but we can create one if that need arises:

apparently public consultation on the royal canal greenway out past blanchardstown is opening up again, i think on tuesday.
i've seen a mail from a local residents' association that they have 'reliable information' that the north bank proposal will be presented to councillors as the preferred option, which is what this residents' association is campaigning against.

i took the opportunity to mail the councillors and express my support for the north bank option anyway.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but is your preference for the north bank because you think it is a better option or you're not really pushed and just want the path built.

Personally, I just want the path built and feel that by recommending the north side, they are delaying the construction further due to the local pushback (whether right or wrong). In saying that, this maybe moot as the houses at the back of Roselawn on the canal got planning permission even though the local opposition there was strong!

The southside appears to upset no one as that is where the path has always been, there's an already published engineers report saying it's good to go and IR have said they have no issues so it should have less obstacles getting built.

From reading the plans, the northside also appears a more complicated build (bridges, possible CPO's) but I may be mistaken.

buffalo · 24-05-2021 11:51am

knockoutned wrote: »

From reading the plans, the northside also appears a more complicated build (bridges, possible CPO's) but I may be mistaken.

What is complicated about a CPO?

Any plans I've seen say the south side is far more complicated in terms of engineering, requiring an extensive boardwalk to be built for the deep sinking. The northside just needs a path with a small boardwalk in some sections.

magicbastarder · 24-05-2021 2:02pm

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

Do you have any detail on it? Very interested in this.

as mentioned, the southern side would be along the steeply banked section of the deep sinking, requiring a boardwalk to be built, and AFAIK dublin fire brigade have stated it'd need to be sturdy enough to take a four wheeled vehicle in case of a medical emergency.
also, running it on the southern side would 'trap' it between the canal and the railway line for approx 2km, with no entry or exit points between castleknock and coolmine railway stations, which seems madness for a greenway going pas housing estates. but that's one of the issues, many people in those housing estates don't want the greenway being accessed from them.

some of the house owners in delwood have also taken possession of the land beside their gardens, and will probably claim adverse possession of them now.

there are also worries about increased crime rates in the estates were this to happen (which i don't put much credibility in) and worries that it'd facilitate the estates being used as park and ride for coolmine railway station (and this *is* a problem in some nearby estates)

this is the stretch in question:
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3796943,-6.3794705,16.5z

KevRossi · 24-05-2021 2:22pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

as mentioned, the southern side would be along the steeply banked section of the deep sinking, requiring a boardwalk to be built, and AFAIK dublin fire brigade have stated it'd need to be sturdy enough to take a four wheeled vehicle in case of a medical emergency.
also, running it on the southern side would 'trap' it between the canal and the railway line for approx 2km, with no entry or exit points between castleknock and coolmine railway stations, which seems madness for a greenway going pas housing estates. but that's one of the issues, many people in those housing estates don't want the greenway being accessed from them.

some of the house owners in delwood have also taken possession of the land beside their gardens, and will probably claim adverse possession of them now.

there are also worries about increased crime rates in the estates were this to happen (which i don't put much credibility in) and worries that it'd facilitate the estates being used as park and ride for coolmine railway station (and this *is* a problem in some nearby estates)

this is the stretch in question:
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3796943,-6.3794705,16.5z

When the plebs do it, adverse possession is known as 'squatter's rights', when the not-so-plebish do it, it's known as 'adverse possession'.

I'm not sure if they ever purchased the land off Waterways Ireland, CIE, or whomever, but if they start to pay out on it, then it's going to get very expensive very quickly.

The same thing happened when building the Green Luas through Ranelagh, people who just extended their gardens up to the old Harcourt St line were paid off large sums of money to get the land back. Most of this done on the instructions of a Minister and it was always a bit doubtful if it would have stuck up in court.

Let's hope it doesn't set a precedent.

magicbastarder · 24-05-2021 2:22pm

knockoutned wrote: »

I hope you don't mind me asking, but is your preference for the north bank because you think it is a better option or you're not really pushed and just want the path built.

one of the reasons i prefer the idea of the north bank is that i know there are some people in delwood who like the idea of being able to go for a walk like that without necessarily needing it to be several km long, but the volume of the opposition in delwood is such that they want an easy life and are keeping their mouths shut.

also, were i to take the worries about crime/antisocial behaviour at face value, it'd raise questions over the safety of a 2km stretch where you could be up to 2km of a safe exit were there to be ne'er do wells loitering.

KevRossi · 24-05-2021 2:29pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

one of the reasons i prefer the idea of the north bank is that i know there are some people in delwood who like the idea of being able to go for a walk like that without necessarily needing to to be several km long, but the volume of the opposition in delwood is such that they want an easy life and are keeping their mouths shut.

Bullied into silence by the usual suspects. I've seen the same thing happen to a good friend of mine, they ended out moving out of the estate. (It wasn't a Greenway, but similar enough). They stood up at a public meeting and opined in favour of it, and were almost physically attacked.

A campaign started against them, they sold the house, the new owners were earned not to behave like the old ones. House went for €850,000 IIRC, so a self-styled 'decent' area.

A secret ballot was proposed to see who was in favour, this was opposed by a vocal few, who forced a 'show of hands vote'. They openly said that anyone who votes in favour of the project will be noted.

Some people are mental, and scumbags no matter how wealthy they are.

knockoutned · 24-05-2021 3:34pm

Yeah, I agree with you on the lack of entrances on the stretch, but is this not the same as Castleknock to Ashtown. Yes, currently there are less houses, but even when the racecourse is fully developed, you still have the issue of the railway line being a permanent boundary so access will always be limited. In saying that, if there is a requirement for a bridge from the southside to the northside as part of the preferred route, could this still be constructed and put at the entrance at Brompton park near the bend on Roselawn Road.

On the houses who have extended into the canal, I believe that this land was purchased from Waterways Ireland legally about 15 years ago. If this is the case, regarding the difficulties with the CPO I mentioned earlier, I would imagine if taking to court, the question would be asked why was the land sold in the first place by one public body, if it will be needed so soon afterwards by another, but then again I cant say I am an expert on the CPO process

.

The southside may be more difficult to construct, but the northside will still need heavy construction, as its not like the proposed route is going on flat and cleared land (extended gardens aside :eek:). And if this is all cleared, then it sort of takes away the enjoyment of the whole area.

Mercian Pro · 24-05-2021 8:09pm

My understanding is that householders extended their gardens without purchase or agreement but gained rights as it was not challenged by whichever body owned the land at the time. This could have been CIE, OPW or Waterways Ireland though I think it predates the latter's establishment. The land grab was subsequently legitimised as the extended sections of garden were registered with Land Registry. Unfortunately, the 25m or so of level ground would have been the ideal location for the Greenway as the land behind slopes down to the canal.

CPO of the extended sections of gardens might still be the most economical option but I strongly suspect Fingal will go with cutting a route into the sloping section of the bank below the gardens. This will be tricky particularly with regard to construction access but probably less difficult than trying to build the cantilevered structure on the southern bank.

buffalo · 25-05-2021 10:27am

Consultation open now at https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/royal-canal-urban-greenway

I haven't read any of the docs yet. edit: the Delwood-adjacent page shows a path on the north bank.

knockoutned wrote: »

The southside may be more difficult to construct, but the northside will still need heavy construction, as its not like the proposed route is going on flat and cleared land (extended gardens aside :eek:). And if this is all cleared, then it sort of takes away the enjoyment of the whole area.

Any of that which applies to the north bank also applies to the south bank. I imagine building a boardwalk on the south side would leave zero room for natural growth, there's far more room on the north bank to be sympathetic to existing growth.

Mercian Pro · 25-05-2021 5:57pm

buffalo wrote: »

Consultation open now at https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/royal-canal-urban-greenway

I haven't read any of the docs yet. edit: the Delwood-adjacent page shows a path on the north bank.

Drawings 20, 21 & 22 are the key ones and sensibly show the Greenway running behind and below the extended gardens in Delwood.

KevRossi · 25-05-2021 6:36pm

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Drawings 20, 21 & 22 are the key ones and sensibly show the Greenway running behind and below the extended gardens in Delwood.

Just from looking at it briefly, it seems CPO's won't be necessary on the gardens behind Delwood. Have I got that right?

Mercian Pro · 25-05-2021 6:39pm

KevRossi wrote: »

Just from looking at it briefly, it seems CPO's won't be necessary on the gardens behind Delwood. Have I got that right?

Yes, they have gone for the less contentious, and probably way more expensive, option of staying away from the gardens.

magicbastarder · 25-05-2021 6:42pm

some of the delwood residents whose houses are at the end of the cul de sacs have extended their gardens into the space available between themselves and the canal; i'm not sure to what extent though. this is why we were talking about squatters rights/adverse possession. i've yet to look at the maps, though, which might help.

some of those residents have more clout than yer average joe soap when it comes to these matters.

edit: yeah, it does seem to avoid the extended gardens.

anyway, i've seen a video, recorded today presumably, of LV welcoming the greenway but specifically objecting to the access points behind brompton and at the end of delwood close; interesting that he does not seem to specifically object to the northern bank routing apart from that.
i was sent it on whatsapp, but i'm sure it's available elsewhere, as it was clearly produced for public consumption. it's not been posted to his twitter account though.

KevRossi · 25-05-2021 6:48pm

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Yes, they have gone for the less contentious, and probably way more expensive, option of staying away from the gardens.

Seems to be a bridge/boardwalk of less than 50m, rather than buying out a number of back gardens (6-10), including gardens that were not extended.

CPO's are arduous and can delay a project by a number of years, seems to be the most sensible option.

It's the bit in purple that will be bridged.

Link to map here.

delwood1.PNG

Brock Turnpike · 25-05-2021 6:50pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

some of the delwood residents whose houses are at the end of the cul de sacs have extended their gardens into the space available between themselves and the canal; i'm not sure to what extent though. this is why we were talking about squatters rights/adverse possession. i've yet to look at the maps, though, which might help.

some of those residents have more clout than yer average joe soap when it comes to these matters.

edit: yeah, it does seem to avoid the extended gardens.

anyway, i've seen a video, recorded today presumably, of LV welcoming the greenway but specifically objecting to the access points behind brompton and at the end of delwood close; interesting that he does not seem to specifically object to the northern bank routing apart from that.
i was sent it on whatsapp, but i'm sure it's available elsewhere, as it was clearly produced for public consumption. it's not been posted to his twitter account though.

What's the objection to the access points in Brompton and Delwood?

magicbastarder · 25-05-2021 7:14pm

security is one of the main ones - e.g. burglars will have an easier escape route.
increased foot traffic too?

Brock Turnpike · 25-05-2021 7:30pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

security is one of the main ones - e.g. burglars will have an easier escape route.
increased foot traffic too?

Is there evidence to support the burglary suggestion? As in, are other estates along the canal, with entrances to it, akai seeing higher crime rates?

KevRossi · 25-05-2021 8:08pm

Slightly off topic, but I came across this today whilst researching something else. It's a map of a proposed extension of the Royal Canal, from near Kinnegad to Lough Allen and Lough Erne from 1809. Would be great to have these as Greenways.

(The map is on it's side, so the top of the page is 'West').

buffalo · 25-05-2021 8:59pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

security is one of the main ones - e.g. burglars will have an easier escape route.

They'll have their getaway barges at the ready!

magicbastarder · 25-05-2021 9:46pm

as i am fond of pointing out, if greenway would afford ease of escape from delwood, this phenomenon should be measurable in brompton, which is right beside and where someone on foot is not hampered by the fact that they're cul de sacs; they're cul de sacs to motorised traffic, the closed ends open out onto a green area from which any of the other cul de sacs, and roselawn road, can be easily accessed.

magicbastarder · 25-05-2021 9:47pm

though there is the possibility of a rather fun local news story; man on brompton steals brompton from brompton.

Mercian Pro · 25-05-2021 11:29pm

Have read through most of the key documents. They have done an extraordinary amount of investigation and analysis of the Deep Sinking section including detailed technical assessments of the constructability of the south and north options. They scored 11 different options in that area alone and rated them all before coming down in favour of running the Greenway behind the Delwood gardens and along the edge of Brompton green.

Buried within it is a reference to "Land take required on the northern embankment where three Delwood Road residents have extended their back gardens (title still remains with Waterways Ireland). This option may have an impact on their back gardens" This should cause a bit of consternation and confusion as Delwood Road is well away from the canal and doesn't have any houses adjoining the embankment! Otherwise, they seem to have anticipated most of the counter-arguments but that won't stop plenty of local politicians jumping to the defence of their constituents.

knockoutned · 25-05-2021 11:51pm

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

Is there evidence to support the burglary suggestion? As in, are other estates along the canal, with entrances to it, akai seeing higher crime rates?

When Delwood was originally constructed, there was a laneway that ran from the Park through the three cul de sacs ending in Delwood Drive at the canal end of these roads. These were all closed due to anti social issues, though admittingly this was over 20 years ago and when the age profile of the estate was a lot younger.

Regarding the land behind the houses, the actual ownership of the land is a grey area. It is my understanding that the original farm boundary that Delwood was built on ended at the top of the hill that leads down to the canal and not where the original back garden walls were built. The reason the wall was built there was due to the quarry that came in and impacted 4-6 houses (see the map above indicating where a bridge is required). This is why there was no fight from Waterways Ireland or any other bodies when the land was taken.

KevRossi · 25-05-2021 11:56pm

I think they mean Delwood Park. It's clearly visible on Google Maps as to the three houses that are mentioned. Looks like a land grab from several years ago. As long as the title is with Waterways Ireland there shouldn't be too much of an issue. I hope.

Either way it's up to the government to either face the residents down or let them set a precedent going forward.

KevRossi · 26-05-2021 12:04am

I can understand that the residents are aggrieved with the Greenway. I'd probably be more than plssed off if the house I had, instead of backing onto a but of greenery and a canal was to be turned into a Greenway, but that's the luck of the draw. I had to suffer under something similar before, but at the end of the day, every railway, airport, N road, dual carriageway and motorway in the country was built through someone's back yard at some stage.

Royal Canal on a Road Bike

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