Possible puppy farm?

Taiga wrote: »

Hi guys,

My bro and sis in law were on a waiting list for a puppy at the end of the month. The pup is a cross breed and they know it isn't from a registered breeder but it seemed to be a lady who cares about her dogs (their words, not mine). I've seen pics of the pups and they seem to be in a bed surrounded by straw and with heating lamps.

Great excitement about collecting it at the end of the month. The lady wouldn't let the pup go sooner as Christmas and mayhem happens and she said it isn't good for the pup and she doesn't home pups for Christmas presents. Sil was asked lots of questions initially and the lady said she'd put her on the list. Then she had a cancellation and rang sil saying they had a choice of two pups and could come look at them and choose on the 31st Dec.

They heard about this lady from a lady my sil works with who got a pup from her last year. She was happy with it, said she went to the location (1.5 hours from where we live) and saw the parents, living conditions etc.

Today sil got a call from the lady who said unfortunately she has had to put down 3 pups today as vet said they had neurological issues so no pup for them but she has a bitch due before Christmas so she could have one of those pups at the end of next Feb if she wants. They have paid €100 deposit and she offered her that back if she didn't want to go ahead. Pup will cost €450 in total.

I thinks it's a puppy farm. Might be a little comfier than some but sounds like a money maker to me.

Sil just rand there and is worried sick as she doesn't want to buy from a puppy farm and doesn't know what to do. I told her I'd ask the more knowledgeable folk here. Thanks guys, and sorry for the long post!

So the lady is a regular breeder then? As in she has numerous litters?

She had litters last year.. a current litter of which some have had to be PTS... and another one due??

And your SIL isn’t running a mile?
I’m just not sure how people can be so blind - sorry not trying to cause offence but this baffles me ..

€450 for a cross breed - what breeds?

My rescue full pedigree springer spaniel cost me €150 from a rescue centre and came vaccinated/ neutered!

Your correct tell them to walk away ..

If it’s not a puppy farm it’s certainly a back yard breeder as most deliberate cross breeds come from. The difference is just scale and the back yard breeder probably doesn’t have the licence larger scale operators are required to pay for. Ethically, there is no difference between the two. It couldn’t be more obvious this is an unethical operation. Tell your family members to run very fast and very far away.

They're always genuine/care about their dogs blah blah blah.. But usually people want a dog and they want it now so they don't want to listen.

Just to give an idea - I was supposed to be getting a pup next month but not happening now as there was a problem .. I was put ahead of 10 other people on this list because by chance my friend is kind of related to the breeder (long story) but I had gone through the breed club and it was a just coincidence. (so seemed like it was meat to be ) I'm now on a different breeders list and will be looking at April before I get the pup all going well. Reputable breeders don't have a running stock of puppies - they take names while they're planning a litter and their lists fill up fast so I would question anyone that has puppies that weren't already booked.

There is nothing wrong with buying a pup but it's the buyers responsibility to make sure they're coming from a reputable breeder and not somebody churning out puppies to make some extra tax free cash. My friend has been trying to rescue for over a year now - lots of people are in the same situation and get fed up waiting.. but there's been posts here recently where posters are heartbroken because their puppies have been pts or diagnosed with progressive illnesses and have no support or compassion from the breeders.

She could take it and live happily ever after or it could have health issues that will break her heart and wallet. It’s a tough one. It’s not as easy as just going to a rescue as people might like to think - the pandemic has kind of stopped that in its tracks depending on the rescue. My friend has been looking for a puppy for over a year now from various rescues and has hit a brick wall and she's not looking for anything crazy. As for them being full of unwanted puppies in the new year? I don’t know if that’ll be the case - people forking out huge amounts of money for a pup are probably more likely to sell them on rather than hand them over to a pound.

Again, there’s nothing wrong with buying a pup but you need to do your research on health/behavioural issues associated with the breed as well as the breeder. Your best best on price would be to call the breed club and ask their advice on what you should be expecting to pay. Their costs include stud fees, health checks, medical expenses etc which varies based on breed.

bertiebomber wrote: »

go to a rescue for gods sake they barely charge enough to cover the neuter & fleas treatments not for profit . Any dog over 500 euro is a puppy farm, dogs are so inflated at the moment.. Please wait a bit as they are being surrendered a lot, up 70% surrender already as the covid pups \are now teenagers and not wanted anymore. if you are patient and dont require the pup on xmas day you will benefit from the fools who paids 1000's for pups mark my word. After xmas the rescues will be over loaded.

Are you for real? How many quality puppies have you bred, paid large stud fees for, paid for health testing, prefix fees, registration fees, IKC membership, vet fees, vaccinations, worming, whelping supplies quality puppy & mother food, puppy packs & then cleaning supplies & your time spent looking after them until 8 weeks. Do you know how much an out of hours C Section costs?

A small breed - you might be lucky to get 3 pups!

Not all rescues are Knights in Shining Armour either. My Club was involved in shutting down one!

Taiga wrote: »

I rang them this morning, bro wants to cancel but sil says she's worried about the puppies welfare and if she takes one at least she can help it. Chr1st. I'll keep ye posted, I really hope she changes her mind.

Just to clarify, it's not for me, I already have two rescues.

Your brother would be better calling the ispca and reporting it. That would be looking after their welfare

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

Can't see why a licence to sell dogs and other animals isn't a thing. Licence it, tax it. Restrict number of licences. It would be reported in a heartbeat if there were breaches and illegal trading.

Majority of Puppy farms are licensed.. the government approves most of them .. shocking as it sounds

bertiebomber wrote: »

this government is really run by a half indian / pakistani irish person he sees no wrong in the greyhound crisis and continues to fund them he has no empathy, he is an autistic person thence all dog &* horse racing continued during the lockdown behind closed doors for gambling only, thats all money. Absolutely not essential. Our government are soo busy spinning stories and trying to look good they dont give a monkies about animal welfare they sway whatever way a vote comes.

Wow.

I dunno what to actually say about this post!

Taiga wrote: »

What?:eek: I didn't know that. That makes me very sad.

I know it’s shocking we are the puppy farming capital of Europe.. within over 100 legal farms .. they approve large scale places with up to 300 breeding bitches (Cavan is a hot spot but they are all over Ireland)

The type of breeding as per original post is more than likely a back yard breeder with 2/3 breeding bitches - no difference really between them when it comes down to it ..

I'm following every rescue in the country for the past six to eight months and its virtually impossible to get a puppy. You dont even get a reply as they get so many applications.

What is worrying though is that people are taking a puppy, any puppy instead of getting the right fit.

I would consider a reputable breeder, but I've no idea who is good or bad, I don't know anyone in the business, so it's hard to figure out and is not always obvious.

I'd hate to support back yard breeder or puppy farmer in any way.

tk123 wrote: »

My friend has been looking for over a year! I cringe at some of the rescues shes following and supporting on FB with donations she can’t afford eg rescues who have had FB pages set up to exposed them(!)

The best way to find a reputable breeder is through the breed club - this ensures the breeders are following a code of ethics and are only breeding from dogs who are fully health checked and screened including genetic testing. The problem atm is that they’re also inundated with tyre kickers.

I know exactly who is who and if you remember there was one here too!.

Its s not all one sided rescue is good and breeder is bad.

I'd just clearly hate to be missing something obvious that people in the know, know, if that makes sense.

coathanger wrote: »

Tell your sister to steer clear, €450 for a crossbreed or mongrel ! Madness !!
Ask her to approach a local rescue & offer to foster a dog , & donate the €450 to the rescue , that would be a great help with their food & vet bills .
Whilst fostering they might find a dog that is the perfect fit for their family.
Also ask your sil in to check out the county council website in the area where this breeder is located , she may well see their name on the Register of Dog Breeding Establishments.
That’s a real eye opener I can tell u .
Photos/ situations can be staged for the buyer , ie nice clean straw & heat lamps ! Far better to have the pups in a safe corner of the kitchen to get them used to day to day noises of living with a family in a family home.
I hope your sil sees sense ...

As far as I know, councils won’t publish the lists of licensed puppy farms anymore, using the excuse of “data protection”. It’s given them yet another layer of protection from scrutiny. Disgraceful carry on and brings shame on our councils and on our country’s reputation internationally. :mad:

At least she did the right thing by putting them down but of course the suspicion is that she got an offer of a much better price for Christmas and sold them elsewhere higher. Dogs selling for 1k up and prices tracking back up for the Christmas ‘market’ to 2k+ for retrievers - unbelievable really.

The big Wicklow/Dublin/Galway /Kildare/Meath rescue shelters say they are inundated with abandoned dogs and requests yet the same few lurcher/collie and restricted breed mix dogs have been on their fb pages and websites for over 6 months + now. It is impossible to get a sensible response from the big 3 rescues in Dublin one of which says it is their policy that they will not adopt young dogs/puppies out to families WITHOUT children.

So long as ‘reputable breeders’ continue to
say their dogs are showdogs and the best examples of their pedigrees and expect fees in thousands for a dog and it is near impossible to plan to get a family pet of your semi choice from a rescue people will continue to buy online where the fees though extortinate are nowhere as extortinate as the fees expected by IKC professional dog owners & breeders.

Doubtless it is a great thing to rescue a dog but equally people do not necessarily want someone elses abandoned/discarded pet which often by the stage it gets to a rescue has not been socialised properly or been mistreated and has lifelong lasting complexes and issues.


It is clear also from tracking websites that rescues are being routinely used as dumping grounds for breeders who do not manage to sell
their ‘puppies’ while they are young and cute or whose experimental greyhound/lurchers do
not pass the grade for speed tests/racing potential.

We seriously need to look at a model for
pet ownership in this country that bridges the
gulf between private puppy purchasing versus dog farms vs rescuing. There has to be countries that have a better and more successful model than ours and a universal vet check that has to be provided at point of advertisement or sale so
you have a hope of knowing the dog is safe and healthy before parting with a thousand euro
in someones kitchen to get the dog of your choosing when it is still young enough to be trained and socialised and can be trained and trusted with your family/children.

Out government has actively supported a family who have over 300 breeding bitches in Cavan - how in the name of God can this be right? And how can the likes of all the bleeting politicians who routinely go on about rights issues and humanity and left wing militancy preside over this without a murmer while BBC and other media are doing under cover exposes on the horrific conditions the breeding bitches and pups are kept in. It just beggars belief.

biko wrote: »

As long as people keep buying from these puppy farms they will stay in business.

As long as there is no other method of buying a puppy in the breed of your choice to train and socialise from 12 weeks up there is little alternative.

What do other countries do?

Here we have the classic dilemma. Person wants a specific puppy, orders one from a breeder known to the family who someone else has successfully bought a healthy similar pup from a few years back - and now is being guilted into taking an older dog possibly with lifelong feaars or socialisation/training issues possibly a different breed to the one they wanted and would suit their needs/family. CLASSIC .

Surely other countries have evolved a better system than ours. Where has successful models for choosing and buying a puppy? I’d genuinely love to know.

tk123 wrote: »

I would say it would abnormal for any reputable breeder to have puppies available right now.. did a breed club give you the contact details or have you found them yourself? Always go through the breed club.

why would you say that? Dogs come into heat and are covered - there is an insatiable appetite for puppies during the lockdown - why would a breeder NOT have pups during this huge surge in demand? When the dog may only come into heat or be auited to having a litter once a year?

As for the 2.2K pricetag for an IKC & registered breeder - this is exactly why puppy farms exist - because most people don’t want a best in show pedigree prizewinner - they ‘just’ want a specific breed and don’t want to pay the earth for the puppies grannies rosettes and prize line of awards since the 1900’s.

Currently it seems the going rate for a ‘puppy’ off the internet from God knows who regardles ls of mix, IKC regrisration or breed is about 1 1/2 thousand euro - give or take. Eyewatering. But most specific IKC breeders in the past would have been demanding at least three times this for their prizewinning pooches puppies for ‘ ‘pets’ in the past - pre-covid - and sneer down their noses any anyone who dared say it was too much. The secretaries in the IKC are lovely people but only give a few names of their ‘prefered’ registered breeders and typically the prices all more or less match - from my experiences dealing with them at least. This leaves Joe Bloggs who just wants a specific pet left either going to the internet or trying his luck with the russian roulette of rescues and aomeones abandoned older dog with God knows what dreadful past experiences, lack of socialising, biting habit or mental issues.

No wonder small time hobby breeders - registered or not and puppy factories are thriving.

In Ireland, despite all the lip service to animal industries and animal welfare, There seems to be no managed solution to buying a puppy of your choice - and it has been this way since the 1980’s. The big difference is that it is now more accessible and visible on the internet.

I would also add that if/when the prices dip back to more managable pre-Christmas and pre Covid prices of 4-600 euro for a mix/mutt/whatever off whomever on the internet that the rescues are still going to be faced with the dilema that they are asking for a donation of e250 or so and now some of the major rescues are making it a condition that you oay for and attend their dog training classes for the rescued dog - another e-150-200. Which makes it all the harder to justify a spend on a second hand, possibly traumatised and damaged dog - adult - that may never recover or be trainable out of its neurotic habbits - when you can go to the internet and buy a brand new fully trainable never had issues never been mistreated or abused or bitten puppy of your choosing - all of your own to love and nurture from the start.

Until we find a model that works this will continue. Bad for the dogs, bad for the breeding bitches and bad for the volunteers that are heartbroken trying to save dogs their don’t give a F*** owners think is OK to toss away when they are bored or inconvienenced by or just not bothered to love and cherish anymore. And lets face it - thats what happens to most dogs that end up in rescues - halfwit selfish owners who think the issues they created and the damage they did to their beautiful
little pet is someone elses issue and not their responsibility.

JustAThought wrote: »

why would you say that? Dogs come into heat and are covered - there is an insatiable appetite for puppies during the lockdown - why would a breeder NOT have pups during this huge surge in demand? When the dog may only come into heat or be auited to having a litter once a year?
.

Because reputable breeders didn't breed during lockdown so as not to break restrictions. They also have waiting lists - so there's no spare pups.. therefore anyone with pups right now isn't a member of any club. I'm on a list now for a breeder who's at the planning stages - the dog won't be in heat until some time in Jan.

As for the prices - you do realise that the breed clubs cap the price of puppies? It's cheaper to get a retriever pup at least from a reputable breed club breeder atm than from a backyard breeder. Registering pups doesn't make a breeder reputable either.

You seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder about what you think a reputable (vs registered) breeder is and also rescue dogs.

Also I would never think or refer anyone's pet as being a reject because they came from a rescue but that's the tone I get from your posts.

As a Reputable Breeder I can tell you that €2800 is definitely not normal & my dogs are top winners, health tested. None of us have put up our prices & anyone that does is to be avoided.

What I will say is that I am inundated with inquiries. I also find that people want a puppy & want one now! They don't want to wait & will go anywhere & pay huge sums of money for basically poor quality dogs. I normally have lots of visitors to socialise any young puppies & at the moment it is very difficult to do that to the standard I want as I also live with very vulnerable family members.

And Just a Thought - My bitch is just out of heat & not covered. You are really confused about what a Reputable Breeder actually is!,

tk123 wrote: »

Registering pups doesn't make a breeder reputable either.

This is my ultimate concern.

I will also say like someone else in the post said, the world of rescue is not perfect either.

JustAThought those advert sites are and always have been full of scammers, puppy farmers and backyard breeders. We have always advised on this forum that they should be avoided at all costs. You refer to ‘professional breeders’ this is a term puppy farmers use to describe themselves. As I already said there are no reputable breeders breeding at present (or very very few) and you will never see them advertising anyway. Once again registered does not equal reputable.

JAT - you bought a dog from a puppy farm and you have a nerve to be preaching about other people being holier than thou?


Anyways, there is only so long one can play chess with a pigeon before pulling ones own hair out. So I’m out.