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eircom Announces fibre roll out

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    #62
    Liamario
    Registered Users Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭Liamario


    NIMAN wrote: »
    As someone who can get only 3mb max at present where I live, I would much prefer them to install the necessary gear to make maybe 10mb - 20mb a possibility, rather than reaching for figures in multiples of that.

    Lets walk before we run. Otherwise we will just trip up.
    Unfortunately, too much walking has been done already.


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    #63
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    DonJose wrote: »
    Roughly, what do you think it would cost to connect to the exchange that is 2km away.
    Depends on contract length and how long they get to amortise the install. Just get a quote like I told you and post it in here minus personal details.

    Less than a 2 mbit leased line 5 years ago ( on a 2 year contract) I would say.


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    #64
    Dcully
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 14,684 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dcully


    Whhop de doo, yet again us in small towns look on in envy, Monasterevin hasnt even got NGB yet :rolleyes:
    Apparently theres a fibre line running through the town, doubt we will get to see any use from it :(


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    #65
    Magic Beans
    Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭Magic Beans


    Anyone care to estimate how long it would take to hit the "fair usage cap" on your unlimited Eircon package? My guess is that you would hit it in the first few hours and then what?


    Hypothetical situation of course. This is just another project that is beyond Eircon's ability to deliver.


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    #66
    Gonzo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    why is this stuff always trialed in sandyford? they have alot of decent broadband there as it is. Eircom should trial this to smaller towns and areas where there is no hope in hell of ever having upc.

    I live 2km from Dunshaughlin and my broadband syncs between 5meg and 7meg, different speeds each and every day. This sort of product would be great where I live but I guess it'll be another 10 years before this product makes it's way out here.


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    #67
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    NIMAN wrote: »
    As someone who can get only 3mb max at present where I live, I would much prefer them to install the necessary gear to make maybe 10mb - 20mb a possibility, rather than reaching for figures in multiples of that.

    Lets walk before we run. Otherwise we will just trip up.

    But you see this is the necessary gear.

    If your line is only getting 3mb, it is either:

    1) To far from the exchange

    Only solution is to run FTTH or FTTC

    2) The copper cable is damaged and rotting and needs replacing.

    As most of the cost of replacing cable is the manual labour, if replacing cables you might as well use fibre.

    It was the exact same problem with NTL/Chorus, they awful problems were really only solved by UPC when they basically replaced most of the cable network with Fibre and new high quality coax.


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    #68
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Gonzo wrote: »
    why is this stuff always trialed in sandyford? they have alot of decent broadband there as it is. Eircom should trial this to smaller towns and areas where there is no hope in hell of ever having upc.

    Because Sandyford has lots of apartment buildings and is generally high density. They probably wanted to test out their Fibre To The Premises gear to these apartments.

    Eircom can't just ignore UPC, UPC operate in areas with the most valuable customers. If Eircom doesn't compete with UPC for these customers, then Eircom will definitely fail as a company.

    Wexford is where Eircom are doing tests to see how this gear works in smaller towns.


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    #69
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    Sandyford has probably got a density of newer infrastructure too e.g. proper ducts and cabinets. It's a lot more difficult to retrofit this stuff in older area as it would mean digging up roads in a lot of instances.

    eircom failed to invest in their network and managed to spend billions buying itself.

    Meanwhile, UPC has been quietly upgrading its network and is now about 10 years ahead of eircom in terms of technology for broadband.

    Voice services have largely become a bit irrelevant as a profits driver and the technology behind them is pretty cheap and simple by modern standards. So, the likes of UPC can just whack a good voice solution onto their existing broadband network without any fuss.

    Eircom only have themselves to blame for getting into this position. Ireland was a booming economy over the last couple of decades and eircom should have been offering products to those potential customers that would have made it huge money and kept them on-board.

    Instead, they opted to sweat their assets, not invest and overcharge on the areas they thought they had a monopoly on.

    Along came new technology cable, wireless technologies and mobile phones got cheaper and now they're in a disastrous position.


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    #70
    noelcosgrave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭noelcosgrave


    hellboy99 wrote: »
    I think you will find that a lot of people in these "NFN" areas are having problems even getting 3MB speeds.
    Yes, I'm in an NFN area, and my router has problems holding sync at 2MB. FTTC will probably take decades before it is implemented here in the largest town in Ireland. I don't expect to see FTTH any time in the next 20 years.


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    #71
    noelcosgrave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭noelcosgrave


    Gonzo wrote: »
    I live 2km from Dunshaughlin and my broadband syncs between 5meg and 7meg, different speeds each and every day. This sort of product would be great where I live but I guess it'll be another 10 years before this product makes it's way out here.
    I live just over 3km from the centre of Drogheda, and I've had to adjust the SNR percentage on my router to get it to sync reliably and that's at between 1.8 and 2Mb/s. FWIW, my nearest exchange is 0.5km away, but I'm not connected to that.


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    #72
    Trevor451
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Trevor451


    Even if Eircom is cheaper/faster than UPC I will never give them another cent because they block a certain website

    Censorship is in this day and age is unacceptable :rolleyes:


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    #73
    mickeyboymel
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭mickeyboymel


    Can I ask a question as somebody who never understood how all the rural exchanges are backlinked to main exchanges.........looking at the fibre map on the links posted above....is fibre ran along poles in rural areas? I always thought it could only be buried underground......pardon my ignorance here


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    #74
    DonJose
    Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭DonJose


    mickeyboymel wrote: »
    Can I ask a question as somebody who never understood how all the rural exchanges are backlinked to main exchanges.........looking at the fibre map on the links posted above....is fibre ran along poles in rural areas? I always thought it could only be buried underground......pardon my ignorance here

    From what I understand fiber is run along a lot of motorways and railways. e|net manages Irelands fiber broadband and you can where it passes by viewing the maps on its website.

    http://www.e-net.ie/


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    #75
    mickeyboymel
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭mickeyboymel


    Understand that ok, but take say in my case the Mullingar To Navan link. It does not seem to follow any road pattern, it seems to run north of Delvin Village and cut in a straight line back to Navan via Athboy????? I never remember anyone digging the roads around that area to bury fibre at any time in the last 10 years.

    Also, when travelling the N51,you can quite clearly see where the telegraph poles carrying the Delvin (044) line ends and Athboy (046) line commences. There is a gap of about 300 meters with no lines and no underground ducting. Sorry if this is off topic


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    #76
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    There's some strange comments in this thread about where and what sort of locations can reasonably be served by this.

    I think the trial locations make sense as its purpose is to try it out in two different urban markets typical of many of the places eircom would offer residential fibre services.

    Any future national rollout is still at the initial announcement stage so they could well target urban places that have yet to see UPC or the benefit of higher ADSL2+ speeds.

    And there are lots of places in particular need of such an investment, it's not just rural areas that struggle to get 2 mbits/s

    For the record, overhead fibre placed on poles are used in a few spots around Ireland, such as the road from Creeslough to Carraigart in Co. Donegal and I've also seen this overhead fibre in Co. Tipperary. A lot of ducting can be well hidden and road resurfacing and new chippings etc can cover up manholes.


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    #77
    10belowzero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 252 ✭✭10belowzero


    Totally agree with TBC , if any thing ,it will mean that the extensive fibre network can at last be used for the purpose for which it was intended , and it is extensive , no matter where you are in the country.
    If anything rural customer's could be connected easier to fibre (persay) along o/h route's in rural area's, small town's /settlement's and overlay's and f.p's (as we call them), even one off housing ,would be a lot quicker to do.
    As a tech , I have to say it's a lot easier to work with fibre than copper (it's a pleasure in fact , compared to copper ).
    I said earlier the roll out target is not ambitious , there are network build team's in every area of the country , waiting for the word to go.
    The flexibility of the fibre and the distribution / transmission solution's available for every scenario is impressive , to say the least .
    The company is going thru huge change's at the moment , with so many staff leaving (which will mean yet another staff restructuring again in the near future), and we have yet to see STT's hand in all this.
    The ESOP /staff, has the financial resource's to invest ,the company has 400 million in cash , and I believe the financial negotiation's will be resolved,which will for the first time in year's , leave the company and the staff , with a solid /secure base to which too work from.
    I think even the layman would agree , that the fibre roll out is the key to eircom's future and security , the faster and more extensive the better , it's a win/win situation for every body concerned , esp the customer be they eircom or customer's of OLO's, at the end of the day.


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    #78
    D'Peoples Voice
    Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭D'Peoples Voice


    10belowzero wrote: »
    I think even the layman would agree , that the fibre roll out is the key to eircom's future and security , the faster and more extensive the better , it's a win/win situation for every body concerned , esp the customer be they eircom or customer's of OLO's, at the end of the day.

    was thinking about this last evening. A win, win situation for everyone....I hope you're right :)
    If Eircom install it in areas where UPC are, such as Cork city, Galway city and parts of Dublin city and county, then surely they will have to compete on price :o Lets take the disaster scenario where Eircom are backed into a price war with UPC.:(
    If Eircom charge the one price for broadband all over the country,
    will this drag down the viability of the project.

    This is why i raised the point in another thread, Eircom should try and avoid a head-on price war with UPC unless it can charge people in rural areas higher prices to subsidise the cost of the service in Cork city, Galway city and Dublin.

    I'll be very interested in their business strategy in this one :pac:


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    #79
    bealtine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭bealtine


    D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

    This is why i raised the point in another thread, Eircom should try and avoid a head-on price war with UPC unless it can charge people in rural areas higher prices to subsidise the cost of the service in Cork city, Galway city and Dublin.

    eircom simply cannot compete with UPC, no matter how hard they try, as the "line rental" charge alone is higher than what UPC charge for 20Mbs, so it's pointless trying to compete, unless it's FTTH. So unless they target areas not covered by UPC it's all a waste of time and effort.


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    #80
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    bealtine wrote: »
    eircom simply cannot compete with UPC, no matter how hard they try, as the "line rental" charge alone is higher than what UPC charge for 20Mbs, so it's pointless trying to compete, unless it's FTTH. So unless they target areas not covered by UPC it's all a waste of time and effort.
    I don't think that's true from what I've seen on the UPC website. I have a feeling their packages on the net have not been fully updated but if we take the 12 mbps package which I assume is now recently upgraded to 20 mbps, it costs €25 per month. But it can never cost as low as that as there's that €7.75 standalone charge or else one can take the most basic phone package for €6 also. Making their cheapest broadband subscription a minimum of €31 per month.

    The substantive point is fair though, eircom are charging a high price for the services they offer in comparison to UPC. A minimum €40 per month (and is that a promotional price?!) for a worse broadband service though with a true phone line that won't cut out when the power goes.


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    #81
    bealtine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭bealtine


    To_be_confirmed wrote: »

    Making their cheapest broadband subscription a minimum of €31 per month.

    The substantive point is fair though, eircom are charging a high price for the services they offer in comparison to UPC. A minimum €40 per month (and is that a promotional price?!) for a worse broadband service though with a true phone line that won't cut out when the power goes.

    The cheapest eircom package is €46.79 for 8Mbs whereas you rightly point out UPC charge €32 for their minimum package of 20Mbs.
    So it's my opinion that UPC are eating eircom's lunch and will always while eircom charge such ridiculously high prices. So is there a return for eircom in rolling out fibre? I fail to see where the return is but I do welcome the fact that more fibre will be rolled out. I can only see a market in areas that UPC don't cover but that market is shrinking


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    #82
    Gonzo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    this can only be a good thing for many people, upc are only available in parts of dublin and a few select large towns, outside of that we are all left on eircom's rotting copper network with many people lucky to sync at 3megs. UPC have amazing broadband but it's a sad fact that most area's will never see it ever. Eircom's NGN 8meg and 24 meg offerings are useless to many of us on their network coz our lines are not nearly up to it due to distance from exchange, faulty wiring, internal wiring etc. This would make such a big difference to me and many others who will never see faster speeds unless this product is released to cover nearly every town/large village in Ireland and their surrounding countryside areas. Looking at Eircom's fibre map, Dunshaughlin seems to have quite a few fibre lines in and around it, my question is how well would this serve the surrounding area of a 6km radius? Would they end up placing the fibre cabinets every km or so so that most of us on that exchange get close to maximum speeds?


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    #83
    CorkMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭CorkMan


    By the time Eircom have fibre rolled out UPC will have a 2GBPS service in.


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    #84
    ninjasurfer1
    Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭ninjasurfer1


    bealtine wrote: »
    eircom simply cannot compete with UPC, no matter how hard they try, as the "line rental" charge alone is higher than what UPC charge for 20Mbs, so it's pointless trying to compete, unless it's FTTH. So unless they target areas not covered by UPC it's all a waste of time and effort.

    Is there a possibility of them being able to charge less line rental for fibre customers, thus being able to compete with UPC?

    Despite the CEO saying it would be open to other operators, is there anything to stop them (for FTTH at least) refusing to supply wholesale (i.e. discount) access to other operators?

    Is Fibre even covered under Comreg? If so, can UPC (and eventually eircom when they bring in fibre) be forced to provide Wholesale fibre access to OAOs?


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    #85
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,046 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    ninjasurfer1 wrote: »
    bealtine wrote: »
    eircom simply cannot compete with UPC, no matter how hard they try, as the "line rental" charge alone is higher than what UPC charge for 20Mbs, so it's pointless trying to compete, unless it's FTTH. So unless they target areas not covered by UPC it's all a waste of time and effort.

    Is there a possibility of them being able to charge less line rental for fibre customers, thus being able to compete with UPC?

    Despite the CEO saying it would be open to other operators, is there anything to stop them (for FTTH at least) refusing to supply wholesale (i.e. discount) access to other operators?

    Is Fibre even covered under Comreg? If so, can UPC (and eventually eircom when they bring in fibre) be forced to provide Wholesale fibre access to OAOs?
    Eircom have a monopoly so they will probably have to allow others to use it. UPC don't so they probably won't.


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    #86
    ninjasurfer1
    Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭ninjasurfer1


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    Eircom have a monopoly so they will probably have to allow others to use it. UPC don't so they probably won't.

    But eircom don't have a monopoly on fibre. If anyone does, its UPC.

    eircom have to allow access to their copper network for USO telephony requirements.
    As fibre won't be primarily used for delivering telephony services(much like UPC who offer telephone as an add on), they could in theory leave the copper connection in place to meet USO while keeping fibre (FTTH at least) to themselves? (or am i totally confused?? :o).

    From a comreg view, is there any legislation/guidelines in place to cater for fibre?.


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    #87
    D'Peoples Voice
    Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭D'Peoples Voice


    ninjasurfer1 wrote: »
    Is Fibre even covered under Comreg? If so, can UPC (and eventually eircom when they bring in fibre) be forced to provide Wholesale fibre access to OAOs?

    Probably not comparable, because i'm not too familiar with mobile technology, but O2 whore their network out to anyone that is willing to pay for it.
    From memory, Comreg issued a press release saying they encourage other providers to use O2's network, this will help subsidise the network for O2 rather than another provider duplicate O2's network at a cost to customers. Some of these use O2's network, can't remember exactly who though....

    just mobile
    tesco mobile
    postfone
    3 mobile
    meteor
    emobile

    If O2 can make money from whoring their network, why couldn't UPC?


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    #88
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    D'Peoples Voice wrote: »
    ----

    meteor
    emobile

    If O2 can make money from whoring their network, why couldn't UPC?

    Actually, Eircom i.e. Meteor and Emobile use Vodafone Ireland's network in some low population density areas of the West of Ireland.

    As for wholesale access, Vodafone and O2 Ireland designated as having "Significant Market Power" and are required to allow wholesale access. Meteor and Three are too small to fall into this category.

    A similar situation applies to Eircom requiring them to provide access to other operators on their landline services. However, with eircom it's even a little more significant as they were originally a monopoly operator owned by the state. Things are a little more open and flexible in mobile networks.

    As for UPC, there is an argument that it should be required to offer wholesale access. It is after all a state-regulated cable monopoly in the areas that it operates.


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    #89
    Kensington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Kensington


    ninjasurfer1 wrote: »
    But eircom don't have a monopoly on fibre. If anyone does, its UPC.

    eircom have to allow access to their copper network for USO telephony requirements.
    As fibre won't be primarily used for delivering telephony services(much like UPC who offer telephone as an add on), they could in theory leave the copper connection in place to meet USO while keeping fibre (FTTH at least) to themselves? (or am i totally confused?? :o).

    From a comreg view, is there any legislation/guidelines in place to cater for fibre?.
    UPC have no more fibre than Eircom do. The UPC cable running into the home is co-axial television cable, not fibre optic. A common misconception due to meaningless marketing buzzwords like "fibre power" and "digital quality".

    However it is quite possible that what you say will happen - the copper network will be left for USO and fibre will then be kept as a seperate network. Eircom can simply point at the copper network as meeting their obligations.
    D'Peoples Voice wrote: »
    Probably not comparable, because i'm not too familiar with mobile technology, but O2 whore their network out to anyone that is willing to pay for it.
    From memory, Comreg issued a press release saying they encourage other providers to use O2's network, this will help subsidise the network for O2 rather than another provider duplicate O2's network at a cost to customers. Some of these use O2's network, can't remember exactly who though....

    just mobile
    tesco mobile
    postfone
    3 mobile
    meteor
    emobile

    If O2 can make money from whoring their network, why couldn't UPC?
    O2 = Tesco.
    Vodafone = Justmobile, Postfone, Three (outside of Three's 3G network) and Meteor/Emobile (along the west coast of Ireland only).

    It's not whoring the network really, it's allowing small players and new entrants to be able to gain access to the necessary infrastructure to provide service immediately while also allowing O2 and Vodafone to profit off of their unused network resources. It's known as a Mobile Virtual Network Operator and is quite the norm the world over.

    I'm sure if UPC wanted they could open up their network to competitors. You could lease DOCSIS channels for broadband and voice services. TV channels could also be provided quite easily via a third party reselling UPC.

    At present, there doesn't seem to be any legislative moves made towards opening up the networks though.


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    #90
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    All of the noises from eircom so far seem to be that they're keen to have a wholesale fibre operation.

    I think they're realising they can make more money by having several other companies marketing their product.


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    #91
    ninjasurfer1
    Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭ninjasurfer1


    Solair wrote: »
    All of the noises from eircom so far seem to be that they're keen to have a wholesale fibre operation.

    I think they're realising they can make more money by having several other companies marketing their product.

    Surely keeping the fibre network to themselves would generate more money for them?
    Would they not make more money selling it retail rather than having to provide it at a discounted wholesale rate to OAOs?
    (If someone wants fibre, they'll probably buy it regards of the provider).

    Also, if the proper regulatory framework has not been put in place by Comreg, surely eircom (or any other OAO) would be reluctant to invest a load of money if comreg could (potentially) turn around and force them to sell it on to OAOs at a minimum?


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