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Solar PV Grant now Available - SEAI

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    #212
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    TomOnBoard wrote: »
    Perhaps then your roof orientations are more ESE and SSW than pure SE and SW?? Or else was he just referring to afternoon performance??


    South East(143 degree)
    South West Roof(232 degree)


    iPhone app to get them


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    #213
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    kceire wrote: »
    Depends. Today for example I generated 11kwh.
    I could have filled a 5kwh battery and filled my 200L cylinder (which I did as I’ve no battery).

    Your Generation is 11KWh across 12 hours lets say.
    Soemtime,the applciances consumed of the panles,some other times took full advantage of the availbale grid.

    Big Q is how much of the 11KWh is consumption and how much is saved and could have been diverted to the battery !?

    Please see below my OWL report for today.
    By some unknown reasons,the consumption on the OWL sees the diverter as a consumption and not a saving,consumption off the grid and not from panels .

    458032.jpg

    The diverter does a different job than a battery charge controller...managing a charging current for battery takes four different stages while a diverter just pushes down the wire some resistive power "approved" by the diverter management software.
    It doesnt matter if the immersion element have warmed or not the water but a battery charger needs to get the battery through the stages from depleted to float / fully charged .


    If you want a system made of PV,diverter and battery then mostly the PV array should have a minimum 10KW so that can generate enough energy to get the 300l tank hot,stop powering the output to immersion and start diverting additional energy from that point in time,over the second output port, to battery charger. But,practical,is a big huge PV array and i dont see it happening with 4Kw.

    My system today ( 40 solar tubes and the PVs) will be reconfigured to have the solar tubes controller going down from current 80 degrees set for over the summer to maybe 60 degrees for over the cold months. When immersion reaches 60 degrees,diverter stop output one and activate outpu two and divert to battery.PRACTICAL,not going to happen as i will disconnect the diverter and let the battery charge controller to eat all the surplus that is been generated by PVs.

    Still searching for a valid 10 years forecasted/guaranteed AC battery solution...


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    #214
    TomOnBoard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭TomOnBoard


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    South East(143 degree)
    South West Roof(232 degree)


    iPhone app to get them

    I reckon his advice relates to better afternoon performance rather than better overall performance. In that split layout, you'll never get near a 4kw output, so the inverter would need to be rated even lower to maximise inverter efficiency. If you were to use batteries, you'd probably extract most output from the 143 orientation as the higher morning output would then be available from the batteries in the afternoon when you need it most. Without batteries, much of the 143 facing output would be exported to the grid.

    In your scenario, and absent batteries, the split location makes most sense. I'd even suggest a 60/40 split in favour of the 2nd roof. All that said, dont expect to get too much production from October to March.


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    #215
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    TomOnBoard wrote: »
    I reckon his advice relates to better afternoon performance rather than better overall performance. In that split layout, you'll never get near a 4kw output, so the inverter would need to be rated even lower to maximise inverter efficiency. If you were to use batteries, you'd probably extract most output from the 143 orientation as the higher morning output would then be available from the batteries in the afternoon when you need it most. Without batteries, much of the 143 facing output would be exported to the grid.

    In your scenario, and absent batteries, the split location makes most sense. I'd even suggest a 60/40 split in favour of the 2nd roof. All that said, dont expect to get too much production from October to March.


    Could have been.....my plan was always a system with batteries if possible.....


    I think because the SE roof is at the entrance it would look an eyesore if the whole section of roof was full of panels so try to restrict the amount on that roof.....


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    #216
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Based on the SEAI website, can you actually just buy the kit and get a electrician to install or are you restricted to the certified installers?

    From the website
    Find the right installer

    Finding a competent installer is important. There are currently no formal qualifications that installers must have. However do note the following:

    Connection of the solar system must be carried out by a Registered Electrical Contractor.
    The Renewable Installers Register identifies installers who have received accredited training.


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    #217
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    @roion

    I’m not as clued up on the days tbh
    There was nobody home today between 9-1 so all that time I’d say was the base lid of the house and immersion. The. In the afternoon some light useage.

    I can only guess by looking at the eddi divertor thatbit sent 4kwh to the immersion, so that leaves 8kwh. I’m not sure what the house base load uses but I’d imagine at least 5kwh went back to the grid.

    Ive just added my generation graph from today.


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    #218
    TomOnBoard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭TomOnBoard


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Could have been.....my plan was always a system with batteries if possible.....


    I think because the SE roof is at the entrance it would look an eyesore if the whole section of roof was full of panels so try to restrict the amount on that roof.....

    Why put any on the SE roof at all if you reckon it would be an eyesore?


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    #219
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    TomOnBoard wrote: »
    Why put any on the SE roof at all if you reckon it would be an eyesore?


    Would I not end up losing performance by installing all of them on the SW roof?


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    #220
    Technique
    Registered Users Posts: 1,371 ✭✭✭Technique


    The 2818kWh, is that year to date?


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    #221
    TomOnBoard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭TomOnBoard


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Would I not end up losing performance by installing all of them on the SW roof?

    Obviously, overall output would be less, yes. However, you've said that your greatest need is in the p.m. which is when the SW would be most productive. Your SE production may not be consumed and therefore would be exported in the mornings.

    Its just if you feel that the ones at the front will be an eyesore, I wonder why you'd put them there at all.

    Also, what was the reasoning for excluding the shed roofs?


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    #222
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Technique wrote: »
    The 2818kWh, is that year to date?

    Probably since installation last October.


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    #223
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    TomOnBoard wrote: »
    Obviously, overall output would be less, yes. However, you've said that your greatest need is in the p.m. which is when the SW would be most productive. Your SE production may not be consumed and therefore would be exported in the mornings.

    Its just if you feel that the ones at the front will be an eyesore, I wonder why you'd put them there at all.

    Also, what was the reasoning for excluding the shed roofs?


    Information provided before that the wooden shed roof with felt would not be suitable.



    The steel shed is an almost flat roof......its not really a shed either, it was used as kennels before and I use to hold logs :P


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    #224
    TomOnBoard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭TomOnBoard


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Information provided before that the wooden shed roof with felt would not be suitable.



    The steel shed is an almost flat roof......its not really a shed either, it was used as kennels before and I use to hold logs :P

    Ok. Understood. I can see why they wouldn't be suitable in their current form. I wonder would the steel one support brackets for a neat vertically adjustable bank of panels? It seems almost as close to 140 as the front of the house and would eliminate the eyesore concern. Just a thought...


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    #225
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    TomOnBoard wrote: »
    Ok. Understood. I can see why they wouldn't be suitable in their current form. I wonder would the steel one support brackets for a neat vertically adjustable bank of panels? It seems almost as close to 140 as the front of the house and would eliminate the eyesore concern. Just a thought...

    The shed would support but it is open to element, wide open fields without a hill in site....don’t think it would last till a storm takes them across the garden

    The front I don’t mind let’s say 4 panels, 1.2kW, something like that....then rest on back....just don’t want the first roof full and then rest empty from front if you know what I mean.....


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    #226
    TomOnBoard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭TomOnBoard


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    The shed would support but it is open to element, wide open fields without a hill in site....don’t think it would last till a storm takes them across the garden

    The front I don’t mind let’s say 4 panels, 1.2kW, something like that....then rest on back....just don’t want the first roof full and then rest empty from front if you know what I mean.....

    Yeah, I've heard that PV panels make better guillotines than kites!! :D


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    #227
    niallers1
    Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭niallers1


    Slightly off topic . If you had a choice of having your solar PV panels in a row of 6 or a row of 3 on 3 what would you choose.?

    What do you think looks better ?


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    #228
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    niallers1 wrote: »
    Slightly off topic . If you had a choice of having your solar PV panels in a row of 6 or a row of 3 on 3 what would you choose.?

    What do you think looks better ?

    Depends on size of roof

    On the smaller SE roof I would do 3+3

    On the longer SW roof I would go with a long 6

    That’s just for my house.....


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    #229
    Technique
    Registered Users Posts: 1,371 ✭✭✭Technique


    kceire wrote: »
    Probably since installation last October.

    And of that 2818kWh, how much do you think went back into the grid? Is there any way of telling?


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    #230
    ArrBee
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭ArrBee


    I'm wondering if it makes sense to use electricity generated during the day in winter to feed radiators?

    Currently we have oil fired water and heating and have a fire in the living room.
    If PV could generate enough to heat rads and hot water, that alone would save a packet in oil, turf, and logs.
    I guess it would come down to how much power to expect being generated in winter...

    Is there a rough guide for efficiency?
    like, clear sunny = 100%
    bright but overcast = 70%
    dull overcast = 30%
    night time = 0% :P


    My simplistic thinking on it would be that we could generate power during the day to:
    -store in a battery
    -heat the hot water
    -heat the rads therefore the house
    -power the background devices (freezers, dehumidifier, NAS, etc)

    and in the evening there might be enough in the battery to reduce the demand on the grid.

    Or is this overly optimistic?


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    #231
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    ArrBee wrote: »
    I'm wondering if it makes sense to use electricity generated during the day in winter to feed radiators?

    Currently we have oil fired water and heating and have a fire in the living room.
    If PV could generate enough to heat rads and hot water, that alone would save a packet in oil, turf, and logs.
    I guess it would come down to how much power to expect being generated in winter...

    Is there a rough guide for efficiency?
    like, clear sunny = 100%
    bright but overcast = 70%
    dull overcast = 30%
    night time = 0% :P


    My simplistic thinking on it would be that we could generate power during the day to:
    -store in a battery
    -heat the hot water
    -heat the rads therefore the house
    -power the background devices (freezers, dehumidifier, NAS, etc)

    and in the evening there might be enough in the battery to reduce the demand on the grid.

    Or is this overly optimistic?


    PV generates electricity. It's not going to heat the house unless you put in electric heaters. You would need a lot of PV to generate enought electricity.....infra ref heaters are an option by some suppliers.....



    I think you are getting mixed up with Heat Pumps. They pull heat from the air to heat the water?


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    #232
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,053 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    ArrBee wrote: »
    Is there a rough guide for efficiency?
    like, clear sunny = 100%
    bright but overcast = 70%
    dull overcast = 30%
    night time = 0% :P

    Yeah that's about right. In summer around midday :p

    You can't heat your house with solar PV in Ireland in winter...


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    #233
    ArrBee
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭ArrBee


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    PV generates electricity. It's not going to heat the house unless you put in electric heaters. You would need a lot of PV to generate enought electricity.....infra ref heaters are an option by some suppliers.....



    I think you are getting mixed up with Heat Pumps. They pull heat from the air to heat the water?


    No, what I was thinking of (maybe dreaming) was to use the electricity to heat water that went to rads.
    Surely thats no different to heating hot water for showers etc?

    Or are their complications because the heating is a closed loop or something?

    Maybe an extra hot water storage tank with immersion on the closed loop?
    Again, I'm just bouncing ideas...


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    #234
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Technique wrote: »
    And of that 2818kWh, how much do you think went back into the grid? Is there any way of telling?

    I personally don't know how to check that. There's probably some way of checking through the app, or with the data generated, but I don't have a clue to be honest.


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    #235
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    ArrBee wrote: »
    No, what I was thinking of (maybe dreaming) was to use the electricity to heat water that went to rads.
    Surely thats no different to heating hot water for showers etc?

    Or are their complications because the heating is a closed loop or something?

    Maybe an extra hot water storage tank with immersion on the closed loop?
    Again, I'm just bouncing ideas...


    I am no plumber but I would guess the quantity of water in the heating system would make it a waste of money. You would be using excess electricity in to try and heat a huge quantity of water. By the time it heated the water it would have been cheaper to just turn on the boiler


    With the hot water for shower you are probably heating maybe 100ltr? a lot less than in the heating system


    Now as I said that is just a guess....


    I know I talked to company and they are doing infared heaters, they can be a mirror or anything in the room. These heat furniture etc or something like that, so it keeps the room warmer long.


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    #236
    quentingargan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I am no plumber but I would guess the quantity of water in the heating system would make it a waste of money. You would be using excess electricity in to try and heat a huge quantity of water. By the time it heated the water it would have been cheaper to just turn on the boiler


    With the hot water for shower you are probably heating maybe 100ltr? a lot less than in the heating system


    Now as I said that is just a guess....


    I know I talked to company and they are doing infared heaters, they can be a mirror or anything in the room. These heat furniture etc or something like that, so it keeps the room warmer long.
    Heating domestic hot water from sunlight makes sense because in the summer months the central heating is off, and your water heating is therefore (in theory) less efficient, plus you have more daylight hours and brighter light.

    In winter you get much shorter daylight hours and less bright light. Your yield would be about 1/4 per day in December of what it is in May/June.

    Using solar of any sort for heating is a mismatch.

    Infra red heating isn't any more efficient in raising the air temperature, but radiated heat feels warmer than convected heat and is somewhat more efficient in heating humans rather than houses as a result. But using electricity directly for heating anything is still very inefficient compared to a heat pump.


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    #237
    ArrBee
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭ArrBee


    quentingargan wrote: »
    Heating domestic hot water from sunlight makes sense because in the summer months the central heating is off, and your water heating is therefore (in theory) less efficient, plus you have more daylight hours and brighter light.

    In winter you get much shorter daylight hours and less bright light. Your yield would be about 1/4 per day in December of what it is in May/June.

    Using solar of any sort for heating is a mismatch.

    Infra red heating isn't any more efficient in raising the air temperature, but radiated heat feels warmer than convected heat and is somewhat more efficient in heating humans rather than houses as a result. But using electricity directly for heating anything is still very inefficient compared to a heat pump.


    OK, so using PV to power an air to water heat pump then....
    I've no idea what the power demand would be or what sort of solar array + battery would be required to make it viable.

    I do know that typically heatpumps are used to feed underfloor heating rather than radiators. Would it be madness to?

    Our house is pretty well insulated, but only "OK" in the airtightness.
    It does hold heat pretty well and once warm radiators wouldn't need to be blasting.

    Lets say in winter, if I had 10 radiators on for 5hrs each day:
    -what sort of heatpump requirement am I likely to need?
    -what sort of battery could power the heatpump for a day?
    -am I likely to charge that battery on a typical winters day?
    -would there be any PV power surplus to feed to the immersion or background house demand?


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    #238
    quentingargan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    ArrBee wrote: »
    OK, so using PV to power an air to water heat pump then....
    I've no idea what the power demand would be or what sort of solar array + battery would be required to make it viable.

    I do know that typically heatpumps are used to feed underfloor heating rather than radiators. Would it be madness to?

    Our house is pretty well insulated, but only "OK" in the airtightness.
    It does hold heat pretty well and once warm radiators wouldn't need to be blasting.

    Lets say in winter, if I had 10 radiators on for 5hrs each day:
    -what sort of heatpump requirement am I likely to need?
    -what sort of battery could power the heatpump for a day?
    -am I likely to charge that battery on a typical winters day?
    -would there be any PV power surplus to feed to the immersion or background house demand?

    By all means, look at getting a heat pump and power it using the grid, especially at night, and look at other threads on heat pumps, but don't reckon on usefully powering it using solar PV unless you are prepared to send a lot of surplus electricity to the grid for free during the summer months


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    #239
    ArrBee
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭ArrBee


    quentingargan wrote: »
    By all means, look at getting a heat pump and power it using the grid, especially at night, and look at other threads on heat pumps, but don't reckon on usefully powering it using solar PV unless you are prepared to send a lot of surplus electricity to the grid for free during the summer months

    .... Because the PV setup would need to be "overkill" (large battery and high kw array) to perform as I described in winter?


    Another thought/question...
    I am really just bouncing stuff around to further my own understanding here, so hope that's OK...

    If, over the year I average around 20kw per day and we had guaranteed 5hrs bright sun every day, then a 4kw array + battery would cover the daily needs, right?
    Not counting spikes in demand that the PV setup didn't have capacity for. So assuming a constant demand from the house.


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    #240
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    ArrBee wrote: »
    .... Because the PV setup would need to be "overkill" (large battery and high kw array) to perform as I described in winter?


    Another thought/question...
    I am really just bouncing stuff around to further my own understanding here, so hope that's OK...

    If, over the year I average around 20kw per day and we had guaranteed 5hrs bright sun every day, then a 4kw array + battery would cover the daily needs, right?
    Not counting spikes in demand that the PV setup didn't have capacity for. So assuming a constant demand from the house.


    Might be worth taking it out of this thread and starting your own asking for recommendations. Solar PV is not going to be a replacement for oil heating.



    Air to water heat pump will work with radiators but most companies want you to swap to aluminium radiators at huge expense.



    You can use a hybrid system which is what I am looking at, air to water to heat water to XX degree. Then the boiler kicks in to finish it off, so you use a lot less oil because the water is already at a higher temp.



    Before looking at any of those. Insulate Insulate Insulate......


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    #241
    H.E. Pennypacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭H.E. Pennypacker


    Shefwedfan wrote: »

    You can use a hybrid system which is what I am looking at, air to water to heat water to XX degree. Then the boiler kicks in to finish it off, so you use a lot less oil because the water is already at a higher temp.


    Hopefully not too far off topic, but just wondering - is that a heat pump that works with your existing boiler or a self-contained boiler/heat pump combo? Some heat pumps already go past 60C (presumably with a lower COP) so I'm wondering if anything more than a heat pump is needed?


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