Shock Collar user fined in Wales

#1 · 20-07-2011 11:18am #1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14181927

A dog owner has been fined £2,000 after becoming the first to be prosecuted in Britain for using an illegal electric shock collar.

Wales banned the devices last year. Phillip Pook, 48, from Ogmore-by-Sea, Vale of Glamorgan, admitted using the collar, to stop his border collie jumping over a wall.

But he had denied he had been warned the collar was illegal.

It was discovered on his dog, found roaming on a beach in December 2010.

Pook was also ordered to pay £1,000 in costs, when he was sentenced.

He used the collar to try to stop the collie jumping over a high wall surrounding his property, Bridgend magistrates heard.

The court was told the collar emitted its electric shock when the dog wearing it went near a specific fence.

They also heard that the dog, which kept escaping, was known at a local kennels as "the dog with the shock collar".

The use of the dog collars was banned in Wales last year.
Prosecutor David Prosser said: "This is the first prosecution under the regulations for this type of collar.

"It operates like an electric fence, and if the dog approaches the boundaries or tries to escape it sends a shock to the dog.

"He didn't accept that it was illegal because it's legal in England. But this is the law as far as Wales is concerned."

The prosecution told magistrates that Mr Pook had been warned in April 2010 that these sorts of collars were illegal in Wales, although they are allowed in England.

Mr Pook bought the collar online six months before the ban came into effect.

The 2010 Animal Welfare (Electronic Collars) (Wales) Regulations prohibit the use on cats or dogs of any electronic collar designed to administer an electric shock.

Chair of magistrates Caroline Naysmith said: "We accept that you attached the collar with good intentions and when you first did so it was not illegal.

"But you knew the law had changed and you continued to attach the collar anyway."

Under the regulations, which came into force in March 2010, using such a collar is an offence punishable with up to 51 weeks imprisonment.

Their use is still legal in England and Scotland but the issue is due to be debated by both the UK and Scottish parliaments. They are also legal in Northern Ireland.

RSPCA inspector Nic De Celis said after the case: "It's gratifying to see that this new legislation really works and is making a difference to animal welfare in Wales.

"I hope this case sends a strong message to all animal owners in Wales that the courts will not tolerate the use of these barbaric devices."

The Kennel Club also welcomed the prosecution.

A spokeswoman said: "Electric shock collars train dogs through pain and through fear - they are a cruel, outdated and unsuitable method of training dogs. "

The Dogs Trust said the use of such collars was "unacceptable, unnecessary and ineffective" and said it was disappointed the UK and Scottish governments had not yet ruled on a ban of their own.

A spokeswoman said: "The charity believes that every dog should be trained using kind, fair and reward-based methods.

"These are proven to be highly successful in modifying behaviour including aggression, without subjecting dogs to cruelty."

This is great news, his fine, including costs amounted to 3k. This has to set a precedent. It cannot be long before the rest of Britain and Ireland catches up.

I wonder if people here and other countries where they are commonly used will think twice now. If you know that this device is outlawed and people are prosecuted for using it, then it would be very hard to convince yourself that you're doing the right thing by the dog.

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 11:39am

had a problem with one of my dogs, he decided to start chasing sheep which i couldn't have because we are around sheep nearly every day and if something happened the farmer would not be happy. I tried everything for weeks and could not get him to stop, i had help from others too and nothing worked. In the end 2 blasts of a shock collar when he chased them sorted the problem in a short afternoon and he has not done it since, this dogis very happy well looked after and loves getting out every evening. I think shock collars are great if used right

toadfly · 20-07-2011 11:39am

The sooner these are banned the better, so outdated and cruel. Why anyone would put these on their pet is beyond me.

andreac · 20-07-2011 12:54pm

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

had a problem with one of my dogs, he decided to start chasing sheep which i couldn't have because we are around sheep nearly every day and if something happened the farmer would not be happy. I tried everything for weeks and could not get him to stop, i had help from others too and nothing worked. In the end 2 blasts of a shock collar when he chased them sorted the problem in a short afternoon and he has not done it since, this dogis very happy well looked after and loves getting out every evening. I think shock collars are great if used right

Wow, poor dog:(

You couldnt have done it in a more humane, less painful way, like building a fence, dog run etc, no?:rolleyes:

andreac · 20-07-2011 12:57pm

Great to see someone being fined for the use of these cruel, barbaric pieces of equipment. They have no place whatsoever in the pet world or home.

Pity Ireland doesnt follow suit and ban these too. Hopefully it wont be long coming in so people realise how awful they really are.

Imagine shocking your dog with an electric shock so its hurts them and actually thinking this is ok??
Words fail me when people think there is nothing wrong with hurting your pet in this way, so so sad:(

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 1:04pm

andreac wrote: »

Wow, poor dog:(

You couldnt have done it in a more humane, less painful way, like building a fence, dog run etc, no?:rolleyes:

He has huge run that i built for him and a big house in the run.

He started chasing sheep when we are out hunting in the evenings. I did try everything else, walking him on a lead through the sheep so he knows not to run after them, getting him to ignore them and focus on what we were doing, i even went so far as to take him to a friends farm and let him try chase 2 big rams around a field who ended up chasing him out of it. I tried for weeks but in the end the shock collar worked a charm, the dog was not hurt but did learn his lesson and it was not cruel. would have been alot worse for a sheep if they ran into a fence or took a fall and broke a leg

DBB · 20-07-2011 1:40pm

It didn't hurt him?
Upon what evidence are you basing this conclusion?
I thought these collars inhibit behaviours precisely because they hurt?
Perhaps you might try using one on yourself and tell me they don't hurt. I've tried them on myself at a low setting. I have a high pain threshold. It really hurt.

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 1:53pm

I used it on myself before i used it on the dog! it was uncomfortable but i wouldnt call it sore.

Ill just add that when my father got one to stop his terrier barking my brother was going mad about it until he tried it and said fair enough not too bad, that stopped the dog barking too. they do work

Karma25 · 20-07-2011 1:57pm

DBB wrote: »

It didn't hurt him?
Upon what evidence are you basing this conclusion?
I thought these collars inhibit behaviours precisely because they hurt?
Perhaps you might try using one on yourself and tell me they don't hurt. I've tried them on myself at a low setting. I have a high pain threshold. It really hurt.

I have no knowledge bout shock collars because I refuse to use them myself but from what I know, I think they don't hurt the dog they just shock it. I'm pretty sure any dog owner that uses one should use it on themselves first. If it hurts them don't use it on the dog.

ISDW · 20-07-2011 1:59pm

Karma25 wrote: »

I have no knowledge bout shock collars because I refuse to use them myself but from what I know, I think they don't hurt the dog they just shock it. I'm pretty sure any dog owner that uses one should use it on themselves first. If it hurts them don't use it on the dog.

They give the dog an electric shock, how does that not hurt?

DBB · 20-07-2011 2:09pm

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

I used it on myself before i used it on the dog! it was uncomfortable but i wouldnt call it sore.

Ill just add that when my father got one to stop his terrier barking my brother was going mad about it until he tried it and said fair enough not too bad, that stopped the dog barking too. they do work

So, could you explain to me how they work, if they don't hurt the dog? I really don't understand how you got a result if it didn't hurt the dog. Did you put the collar around your neck and get someone to randomly press the button? The pain of an electric shock on the throat is bad enough, the anticipation of it is probably worse. So there you have it... By causing physical discomfort, you cause psychological suffering.
I'd also suggest that whilst you took steps to stop him chasing, they weren't the right ones. That's why they didn't work and that's why you and many others resort to hurting your dog to get a result.
By shocking a barking dog, you might stop the barking, but that doesn't address the underlying emotional reason for the barking. You're punishing the dog for trying to communicate. So there you go, more psychological suffering.
I'm certainly not disputing that electric shocks can work, but at what cost? I always feel that people who resort to painful methods are just not good enough trainers, and haven't the knowledge, creativity or skill to teach a dog using positive training techniques.

Karma25 · 20-07-2011 2:16pm

ISDW wrote: »

They give the dog an electric shock, how does that not hurt?

Like I said I have no first hand experience in using collars cause I will never use them but from second hand information and watching shows, there is so many different levels of voltage. Some are unpleasant sensations to the dog and some are torture it's up to the dog owner to decide which they use.

The only experience I have is when I put my hand on an electric fence, it doesn't hurt but I immediately pulled my hand away. My hand was a little numb for a few seconds after.

ISDW · 20-07-2011 2:19pm

Karma25 wrote: »

Like I said I have no first hand experience in using collars cause I will never use them but from second hand information and watching shows, there is so many different levels of voltage. Some are unpleasant sensations to the dog and some are torture it's up to the dog owner to decide which they use.

The only experience I have is when I put my hand on an electric fence, it doesn't hurt but I immediately pulled my hand away. My hand was a little numb for a few seconds after.

If it doesn't hurt, why pull your hand away?

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 2:25pm

DBB wrote: »

So, could you explain to me how they work, if they don't hurt the dog? I really don't understand how you got a result if it didn't hurt the dog. Did you put the collar around your neck and get someone to randomly press the button? The pain of an electric shock on the throat is bad enough, the anticipation of it is probably worse. So there you have it... By causing physical discomfort, you cause psychological suffering.
I'd also suggest that whilst you took steps to stop him chasing, they weren't the right ones. That's why they didn't work and that's why you and many others resort to hurting your dog to get a result.
By shocking a barking dog, you might stop the barking, but that doesn't address the underlying emotional reason for the barking. You're punishing the dog for trying to communicate. So there you go, more psychological suffering.
I'm certainly not disputing that electric shocks can work, but at what cost? I always feel that people who resort to painful methods are just not good enough trainers, and haven't the knowledge, creativity or skill to teach a dog using positive training techniques.

Physical discomfort, not pain there is a difference. Yep my mate left it on me for a few mins and pressed the button to shock me, then i did it to him. we both agreed it was more uncomfortabel than painful.

I dont claim to be a great dog trainer but i do my best. my dog is a working dog first and a pet second. he is a very happy and well looked after dog.

I didnt know you could get a qualification to diagnose phycologocal suffering of a dog without ever meeting the dog

Karma25 · 20-07-2011 2:25pm

ISDW wrote: »

If it doesn't hurt, why pull your hand away?

The shock of it hence maybe the name

Its hard to describe it didn't cause pain like banging your hand of a door or falling and hitting the floor. It's a vibration and then a numbness.

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 2:28pm

ISDW wrote: »

If it doesn't hurt, why pull your hand away?

Ah come on now seriously are you saying electric fences hurt now too?? i often see kids lining up touching electric fences, i used to do it when i was a kid, Dont know many kids who enjoy hurting themselves. they dont hurt they just give you a shock

wildefalcon · 20-07-2011 2:35pm

I think they are great!

The dog is trained not to approach the wire, which is identified to the dog by flags.

The system is OFF at this time.

Then the system is switched on and the training repeated, when the system emits an audible warning to the dog, from the collar.

By that time the dog is trained to come away from the wire.

Over time the flags are removed.

If, like me, you have ever had a dog killed by speeding motorists, you will appreciate these dog fences. They work. I wished I'd had one when I had my first dog, killed by a car on the road.

Any experienced dog owner will know that some dogs like to roam, and this is a great way to stop them. Far better than having your dog dropped off at your door by the owner of the sheep it savaged.

For the urbanites amongst us - farmers usually return your dog if they find it attacking sheep. They shoot the dog and return it: It is to make a point. The Law supports them on this and they are entitled to shoot any dog worrying livestock.

What next, I ask? A ban on electric cattle fences? An end to barbed wire? No more thorny hedges? Letting dogs roam free over the fields?

Get a sense of proportion, dogs can be dangerous animals, especially in packs, and a stubborn dog will get out unless caged.

This is a successful way of containing a dog in an environment when locking it into a cage isn't an option. Yes, it shocks them (once) but a lot better a shocked dog, than a dead dog, or a child attacked, or a sheep savaged.

toadfly · 20-07-2011 2:38pm

Why can't you build a wall/fence instead of giving your dog a shock? People go on that it's a great fence to keep dogs in but it's not, a regular fence works perfectly well and doesnt hurt the dog.

andreac · 20-07-2011 2:38pm

Ive touched an electric fence before and it does hurt, a lot.

andreac · 20-07-2011 2:40pm

wildefalcon wrote: »

I think they are great!

The dog is trained not to approach the wire, which is identified to the dog by flags.

The system is OFF at this time.

Then the system is switched on and the training repeated, when the system emits an audible warning to the dog, from the collar.

By that time the dog is trained to come away from the wire.

Over time the flags are removed.

If, like me, you have ever had a dog killed by speeding motorists, you will appreciate these dog fences. They work. I wished I'd had one when I had my first dog, killed by a car on the road.

Any experienced dog owner will know that some dogs like to roam, and this is a great way to stop them. Far better than having your dog dropped off at your door by the owner of the sheep it savaged.

For the urbanites amongst us - farmers usually return your dog if they find it attacking sheep. They shoot the dog and return it: It is to make a point. The Law supports them on this and they are entitled to shoot any dog worrying livestock.

What next, I ask? A ban on electric cattle fences? An end to barbed wire? No more thorny hedges? Letting dogs roam free over the fields?

Get a sense of proportion, dogs can be dangerous animals, especially in packs, and a stubborn dog will get out unless caged.

This is a successful way of containing a dog in an environment when locking it into a cage isn't an option. Yes, it shocks them (once) but a lot better a shocked dog, than a dead dog, or a child attacked, or a sheep savaged.

Build a wooden fence or get a dog run, much more safer and reliable and dont inflict pain on your dog.
Electric collars are the easy way out for the owner, not the dog.:mad:

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 2:42pm

TillyGirl wrote: »

Why can't you build a wall/fence instead of giving your dog a shock? People go on that it's a great fence to keep dogs in but it's not, a regular fence works perfectly well and doesnt hurt the dog.

My pointer has been on top of my back wall which is about 7.5 ft:eek: he can clear the side gate which is about my chest height.

no matter what you say they do work, you might not like them but some people do

DBB · 20-07-2011 2:49pm

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

DBB wrote: »

I didnt know you could get a qualification to diagnose phycologocal suffering of a dog without ever meeting the dog

Does a person need qualifications in anything to know that getting a shock isn't nice? Are you telling me that your dog enjoyed the experience?
I'm always mystified by people justifying hurting their dog, or any animal for that matter, by saying it's 'discomfort' not 'pain'. I know I'd rather not have either, I certainly wouldn't like anyone trying to teach me by shocking me for it.
I dont know how anyone can shock their dog and then say they're doing their best either.

toadfly · 20-07-2011 2:49pm

I'm not saying they don't work, they do but by inflicting pain and fear.

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 2:55pm

DBB wrote: »

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Does a person need qualifications in anything to know that getting a shock isn't nice? Are you telling me that your dog enjoyed the experience?
I'm always mystified by people justifying hurting their dog, or any animal for that matter, by saying it's 'discomfort' not 'pain'. I know I'd rather not have either, I certainly wouldn't like anyone trying to teach me by shocking me for it.
I dont know how anyone can shock their dog and then say they're doing their best either.

of course he didnt enjoy it but it was a couple of seconds of discomfort and he learned from it, he was happy out seconds after it happened and straight back to doing his job. im not justifying anything because im telling you it does not hurt and i say that from having tried it.

Wolfe Tone · 20-07-2011 3:00pm

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

had a problem with one of my dogs, he decided to start chasing sheep which i couldn't have because we are around sheep nearly every day and if something happened the farmer would not be happy. I tried everything for weeks and could not get him to stop, i had help from others too and nothing worked. In the end 2 blasts of a shock collar when he chased them sorted the problem in a short afternoon and he has not done it since, this dogis very happy well looked after and loves getting out every evening. I think shock collars are great if used right

Exactly, if you are sensible about it it can work wonders.

Of course the animal rights brigade will be out for your blood now, they obviously prefer to have dogs attacking sheep.

ISDW · 20-07-2011 3:07pm

Karma25 wrote: »

The shock of it hence maybe the name Its hard to describe it didn't cause pain like banging your hand of a door or falling and hitting the floor. It's a vibration and then a numbness.

Please don't be ridiculous electric shocks hurt, you don't have to describe it, I have had an electric shock, it hurts.

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Ah come on now seriously are you saying electric fences hurt now too?? i often see kids lining up touching electric fences, i used to do it when i was a kid, Dont know many kids who enjoy hurting themselves. they dont hurt they just give you a shock

You obviously don't know much about kids, or indeed adults, what about the electrick shock pens and games that were all the rage a couple of years ago. Yes, they hurt, no, its not an excrutiating pain, but it does hurt.

wildefalcon wrote: »

I think they are great!

The dog is trained not to approach the wire, which is identified to the dog by flags.

The system is OFF at this time.

Then the system is switched on and the training repeated, when the system emits an audible warning to the dog, from the collar.

By that time the dog is trained to come away from the wire.

Over time the flags are removed.

If, like me, you have ever had a dog killed by speeding motorists, you will appreciate these dog fences. They work. I wished I'd had one when I had my first dog, killed by a car on the road.

Any experienced dog owner will know that some dogs like to roam, and this is a great way to stop them. Far better than having your dog dropped off at your door by the owner of the sheep it savaged.

For the urbanites amongst us - farmers usually return your dog if they find it attacking sheep. They shoot the dog and return it: It is to make a point. The Law supports them on this and they are entitled to shoot any dog worrying livestock.

What next, I ask? A ban on electric cattle fences? An end to barbed wire? No more thorny hedges? Letting dogs roam free over the fields?

Get a sense of proportion, dogs can be dangerous animals, especially in packs, and a stubborn dog will get out unless caged.

This is a successful way of containing a dog in an environment when locking it into a cage isn't an option. Yes, it shocks them (once) but a lot better a shocked dog, than a dead dog, or a child attacked, or a sheep savaged.

Here we go again, if you don't live in the country, you don't get it, everybody that is against these types of fences aren't country people. Please can we change the record. I live in the country, I have 6 foot fencing all around my property to keep my dogs in. Simples. These electric containment fences don't work for all dogs, some dogs with high prey drives will take the pain to get out, but they aren't stupid enough to take the pain to get back in.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Exactly, if you are sensible about it it can work wonders.

Of course the animal rights brigade will be out for your blood now, they obviously prefer to have dogs attacking sheep.

You are being ridiculous. Last year I had a phone call from a distraught woman who's two huskies had got out, their electric fence had always worked before, but not on this day, the day they went for a wander and got into a field of sheep. Where they shot by the farmer. She couldn't understand why he had to shoot her dogs, as they weren't worrying the sheep. I totally understand the farmer's point of view. I get so many people contacting me because of these wonderful electric fences that don't work and their dogs get lost, shot or run over.

I wonder if the prevelance of sheep attacks has increased in Wales since these fences were banned? I'm guessing not.

DBB · 20-07-2011 3:09pm

@wildefalcon
Perhaps I'm in a position to comment, as I have used the radio fence as a containment system. I justified it then just as you do now. I'll never really forgive myself for using it, but I was ignorant of their drawbacks at the time.
The dog doesn't only get shocked once. My dogs would grit their teeth and take the shock to follow me across it, or to Chase a cat. They'd actually whimper and yelp as they ran across it.
The fence is ineffective when there's a power cut or when the batteries die.
I know quite a few dogs who have developed behavioural problems from getting shocked at inopportune moments, like a child or other dog standing beside the dog just as he got the belt. These dogs 'blamed' the child/other dog and developed fearful and/or aggressive behaviour towards them. I even know one dog who was killed by other dogs that came into his garden. He couldn't escape them because of the fence. And I know several dogs and have heard of many others that have learned to outfox the fence by sitting just within reach of it, letting the alarm go off, wearing down the battery after about 20mins, then heading off for a stroll. A considerable number of dogs end up in the pounds every year wearing these collars, testament to their failure.
You just can't beat a good wall or fence. If your dog jumps the wall, angle a couple of threads of wire in from the top of it. I'm always suspicious about why a dog would want to keep escaping in any case.
Any training method that resorts to using pain is just not acceptable. There is always a humane alternative. That using more positive, pain-free methods requires a bit of knowledge, initiative, and sometimes money is not an excuse, for people who won't utilise these qualities, to harm their dog's wellbeing. Personally, having used one of these fences in ignorance, I cannot accept any argument for their use.

DBB · 20-07-2011 3:17pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Of course the animal rights brigade will be out for your blood now, they obviously prefer to have dogs attacking sheep.

Yawn.

Surely the animal rights brigade wouldn't want to see any animal being hurt or killed? A bit of an oxymoron there, but thanks for the laugh.

I never considered myself to be in any animal rights brigade, but I can tell you that I wouldn't like to see sheep being killed. I would, however, like to see dog owners having a proper physical barrier to stop them getting out, and to have their dogs trained well enough that they can recall the dog should it Chase livestock out on a walk.

ISDW · 20-07-2011 3:20pm

If all that these collars do is to give the dogs a 'shock'. Then why can't you do the same to the dog without actually touching it to teach them not to roam or to chase sheep. The term 'shock' is being used in this thread by some posters as in an unexpected thing. So when the dog is about to do something it shouldn't, shout at it, bang a tin bucket with something metal or similar, would that not give the dog a shock?

I am not advocating doing these things, but what is the difference?

star-pants · 20-07-2011 3:27pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Of course the animal rights brigade will be out for your blood now, they obviously prefer to have dogs attacking sheep.

That's a bit unfair, it's not the case that people want dogs to attack sheep, rather that they feel people should implement other methods of restraining their dogs without having to resort to shock collars.

Mod Hat - I think some people need to calm slightly and also to not make generalising statements. Shock Collar threads are always difficult to mod and I would rather allow a decent discussion than have to lock a thread because of bickering.

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 3:30pm

ISDW wrote: »

If all that these collars do is to give the dogs a 'shock'. Then why can't you do the same to the dog without actually touching it to teach them not to roam or to chase sheep. The term 'shock' is being used in this thread by some posters as in an unexpected thing. So when the dog is about to do something it shouldn't, shout at it, bang a tin bucket with something metal or similar, would that not give the dog a shock? 
 
I am not advocating doing these things, but what is the difference?

just on your point about shouting at the dog or banging a bucket r that to get its attention to stop. First time my dog took chase if a sheep i shouted and he kept gong, i then fired two shots into the air and he still kept going! two shocks while i shouted to come here was enough for my lad, now come here works on its own

Shock Collar user fined in Wales

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