Shock Collar user fined in Wales

#1 · 20-07-2011 11:18am #1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14181927

A dog owner has been fined £2,000 after becoming the first to be prosecuted in Britain for using an illegal electric shock collar.

Wales banned the devices last year. Phillip Pook, 48, from Ogmore-by-Sea, Vale of Glamorgan, admitted using the collar, to stop his border collie jumping over a wall.

But he had denied he had been warned the collar was illegal.

It was discovered on his dog, found roaming on a beach in December 2010.

Pook was also ordered to pay £1,000 in costs, when he was sentenced.

He used the collar to try to stop the collie jumping over a high wall surrounding his property, Bridgend magistrates heard.

The court was told the collar emitted its electric shock when the dog wearing it went near a specific fence.

They also heard that the dog, which kept escaping, was known at a local kennels as "the dog with the shock collar".

The use of the dog collars was banned in Wales last year.
Prosecutor David Prosser said: "This is the first prosecution under the regulations for this type of collar.

"It operates like an electric fence, and if the dog approaches the boundaries or tries to escape it sends a shock to the dog.

"He didn't accept that it was illegal because it's legal in England. But this is the law as far as Wales is concerned."

The prosecution told magistrates that Mr Pook had been warned in April 2010 that these sorts of collars were illegal in Wales, although they are allowed in England.

Mr Pook bought the collar online six months before the ban came into effect.

The 2010 Animal Welfare (Electronic Collars) (Wales) Regulations prohibit the use on cats or dogs of any electronic collar designed to administer an electric shock.

Chair of magistrates Caroline Naysmith said: "We accept that you attached the collar with good intentions and when you first did so it was not illegal.

"But you knew the law had changed and you continued to attach the collar anyway."

Under the regulations, which came into force in March 2010, using such a collar is an offence punishable with up to 51 weeks imprisonment.

Their use is still legal in England and Scotland but the issue is due to be debated by both the UK and Scottish parliaments. They are also legal in Northern Ireland.

RSPCA inspector Nic De Celis said after the case: "It's gratifying to see that this new legislation really works and is making a difference to animal welfare in Wales.

"I hope this case sends a strong message to all animal owners in Wales that the courts will not tolerate the use of these barbaric devices."

The Kennel Club also welcomed the prosecution.

A spokeswoman said: "Electric shock collars train dogs through pain and through fear - they are a cruel, outdated and unsuitable method of training dogs. "

The Dogs Trust said the use of such collars was "unacceptable, unnecessary and ineffective" and said it was disappointed the UK and Scottish governments had not yet ruled on a ban of their own.

A spokeswoman said: "The charity believes that every dog should be trained using kind, fair and reward-based methods.

"These are proven to be highly successful in modifying behaviour including aggression, without subjecting dogs to cruelty."

This is great news, his fine, including costs amounted to 3k. This has to set a precedent. It cannot be long before the rest of Britain and Ireland catches up.

I wonder if people here and other countries where they are commonly used will think twice now. If you know that this device is outlawed and people are prosecuted for using it, then it would be very hard to convince yourself that you're doing the right thing by the dog.

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 11:39am

had a problem with one of my dogs, he decided to start chasing sheep which i couldn't have because we are around sheep nearly every day and if something happened the farmer would not be happy. I tried everything for weeks and could not get him to stop, i had help from others too and nothing worked. In the end 2 blasts of a shock collar when he chased them sorted the problem in a short afternoon and he has not done it since, this dogis very happy well looked after and loves getting out every evening. I think shock collars are great if used right

toadfly · 20-07-2011 11:39am

The sooner these are banned the better, so outdated and cruel. Why anyone would put these on their pet is beyond me.

andreac · 20-07-2011 12:54pm

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

had a problem with one of my dogs, he decided to start chasing sheep which i couldn't have because we are around sheep nearly every day and if something happened the farmer would not be happy. I tried everything for weeks and could not get him to stop, i had help from others too and nothing worked. In the end 2 blasts of a shock collar when he chased them sorted the problem in a short afternoon and he has not done it since, this dogis very happy well looked after and loves getting out every evening. I think shock collars are great if used right

Wow, poor dog:(

You couldnt have done it in a more humane, less painful way, like building a fence, dog run etc, no?:rolleyes:

andreac · 20-07-2011 12:57pm

Great to see someone being fined for the use of these cruel, barbaric pieces of equipment. They have no place whatsoever in the pet world or home.

Pity Ireland doesnt follow suit and ban these too. Hopefully it wont be long coming in so people realise how awful they really are.

Imagine shocking your dog with an electric shock so its hurts them and actually thinking this is ok??
Words fail me when people think there is nothing wrong with hurting your pet in this way, so so sad:(

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 1:04pm

andreac wrote: »

Wow, poor dog:(

You couldnt have done it in a more humane, less painful way, like building a fence, dog run etc, no?:rolleyes:

He has huge run that i built for him and a big house in the run.

He started chasing sheep when we are out hunting in the evenings. I did try everything else, walking him on a lead through the sheep so he knows not to run after them, getting him to ignore them and focus on what we were doing, i even went so far as to take him to a friends farm and let him try chase 2 big rams around a field who ended up chasing him out of it. I tried for weeks but in the end the shock collar worked a charm, the dog was not hurt but did learn his lesson and it was not cruel. would have been alot worse for a sheep if they ran into a fence or took a fall and broke a leg

DBB · 20-07-2011 1:40pm

It didn't hurt him?
Upon what evidence are you basing this conclusion?
I thought these collars inhibit behaviours precisely because they hurt?
Perhaps you might try using one on yourself and tell me they don't hurt. I've tried them on myself at a low setting. I have a high pain threshold. It really hurt.

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 1:53pm

I used it on myself before i used it on the dog! it was uncomfortable but i wouldnt call it sore.

Ill just add that when my father got one to stop his terrier barking my brother was going mad about it until he tried it and said fair enough not too bad, that stopped the dog barking too. they do work

Karma25 · 20-07-2011 1:57pm

DBB wrote: »

It didn't hurt him?
Upon what evidence are you basing this conclusion?
I thought these collars inhibit behaviours precisely because they hurt?
Perhaps you might try using one on yourself and tell me they don't hurt. I've tried them on myself at a low setting. I have a high pain threshold. It really hurt.

I have no knowledge bout shock collars because I refuse to use them myself but from what I know, I think they don't hurt the dog they just shock it. I'm pretty sure any dog owner that uses one should use it on themselves first. If it hurts them don't use it on the dog.

ISDW · 20-07-2011 1:59pm

Karma25 wrote: »

I have no knowledge bout shock collars because I refuse to use them myself but from what I know, I think they don't hurt the dog they just shock it. I'm pretty sure any dog owner that uses one should use it on themselves first. If it hurts them don't use it on the dog.

They give the dog an electric shock, how does that not hurt?

DBB · 20-07-2011 2:09pm

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

I used it on myself before i used it on the dog! it was uncomfortable but i wouldnt call it sore.

Ill just add that when my father got one to stop his terrier barking my brother was going mad about it until he tried it and said fair enough not too bad, that stopped the dog barking too. they do work

So, could you explain to me how they work, if they don't hurt the dog? I really don't understand how you got a result if it didn't hurt the dog. Did you put the collar around your neck and get someone to randomly press the button? The pain of an electric shock on the throat is bad enough, the anticipation of it is probably worse. So there you have it... By causing physical discomfort, you cause psychological suffering.
I'd also suggest that whilst you took steps to stop him chasing, they weren't the right ones. That's why they didn't work and that's why you and many others resort to hurting your dog to get a result.
By shocking a barking dog, you might stop the barking, but that doesn't address the underlying emotional reason for the barking. You're punishing the dog for trying to communicate. So there you go, more psychological suffering.
I'm certainly not disputing that electric shocks can work, but at what cost? I always feel that people who resort to painful methods are just not good enough trainers, and haven't the knowledge, creativity or skill to teach a dog using positive training techniques.

Karma25 · 20-07-2011 2:16pm

ISDW wrote: »

They give the dog an electric shock, how does that not hurt?

Like I said I have no first hand experience in using collars cause I will never use them but from second hand information and watching shows, there is so many different levels of voltage. Some are unpleasant sensations to the dog and some are torture it's up to the dog owner to decide which they use.

The only experience I have is when I put my hand on an electric fence, it doesn't hurt but I immediately pulled my hand away. My hand was a little numb for a few seconds after.

ISDW · 20-07-2011 2:19pm

Karma25 wrote: »

Like I said I have no first hand experience in using collars cause I will never use them but from second hand information and watching shows, there is so many different levels of voltage. Some are unpleasant sensations to the dog and some are torture it's up to the dog owner to decide which they use.

The only experience I have is when I put my hand on an electric fence, it doesn't hurt but I immediately pulled my hand away. My hand was a little numb for a few seconds after.

If it doesn't hurt, why pull your hand away?

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 2:25pm

DBB wrote: »

So, could you explain to me how they work, if they don't hurt the dog? I really don't understand how you got a result if it didn't hurt the dog. Did you put the collar around your neck and get someone to randomly press the button? The pain of an electric shock on the throat is bad enough, the anticipation of it is probably worse. So there you have it... By causing physical discomfort, you cause psychological suffering.
I'd also suggest that whilst you took steps to stop him chasing, they weren't the right ones. That's why they didn't work and that's why you and many others resort to hurting your dog to get a result.
By shocking a barking dog, you might stop the barking, but that doesn't address the underlying emotional reason for the barking. You're punishing the dog for trying to communicate. So there you go, more psychological suffering.
I'm certainly not disputing that electric shocks can work, but at what cost? I always feel that people who resort to painful methods are just not good enough trainers, and haven't the knowledge, creativity or skill to teach a dog using positive training techniques.

Physical discomfort, not pain there is a difference. Yep my mate left it on me for a few mins and pressed the button to shock me, then i did it to him. we both agreed it was more uncomfortabel than painful.

I dont claim to be a great dog trainer but i do my best. my dog is a working dog first and a pet second. he is a very happy and well looked after dog.

I didnt know you could get a qualification to diagnose phycologocal suffering of a dog without ever meeting the dog

Karma25 · 20-07-2011 2:25pm

ISDW wrote: »

If it doesn't hurt, why pull your hand away?

The shock of it hence maybe the name

Its hard to describe it didn't cause pain like banging your hand of a door or falling and hitting the floor. It's a vibration and then a numbness.

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 2:28pm

ISDW wrote: »

If it doesn't hurt, why pull your hand away?

Ah come on now seriously are you saying electric fences hurt now too?? i often see kids lining up touching electric fences, i used to do it when i was a kid, Dont know many kids who enjoy hurting themselves. they dont hurt they just give you a shock

wildefalcon · 20-07-2011 2:35pm

I think they are great!

The dog is trained not to approach the wire, which is identified to the dog by flags.

The system is OFF at this time.

Then the system is switched on and the training repeated, when the system emits an audible warning to the dog, from the collar.

By that time the dog is trained to come away from the wire.

Over time the flags are removed.

If, like me, you have ever had a dog killed by speeding motorists, you will appreciate these dog fences. They work. I wished I'd had one when I had my first dog, killed by a car on the road.

Any experienced dog owner will know that some dogs like to roam, and this is a great way to stop them. Far better than having your dog dropped off at your door by the owner of the sheep it savaged.

For the urbanites amongst us - farmers usually return your dog if they find it attacking sheep. They shoot the dog and return it: It is to make a point. The Law supports them on this and they are entitled to shoot any dog worrying livestock.

What next, I ask? A ban on electric cattle fences? An end to barbed wire? No more thorny hedges? Letting dogs roam free over the fields?

Get a sense of proportion, dogs can be dangerous animals, especially in packs, and a stubborn dog will get out unless caged.

This is a successful way of containing a dog in an environment when locking it into a cage isn't an option. Yes, it shocks them (once) but a lot better a shocked dog, than a dead dog, or a child attacked, or a sheep savaged.

toadfly · 20-07-2011 2:38pm

Why can't you build a wall/fence instead of giving your dog a shock? People go on that it's a great fence to keep dogs in but it's not, a regular fence works perfectly well and doesnt hurt the dog.

andreac · 20-07-2011 2:38pm

Ive touched an electric fence before and it does hurt, a lot.

andreac · 20-07-2011 2:40pm

wildefalcon wrote: »

I think they are great!

The dog is trained not to approach the wire, which is identified to the dog by flags.

The system is OFF at this time.

Then the system is switched on and the training repeated, when the system emits an audible warning to the dog, from the collar.

By that time the dog is trained to come away from the wire.

Over time the flags are removed.

If, like me, you have ever had a dog killed by speeding motorists, you will appreciate these dog fences. They work. I wished I'd had one when I had my first dog, killed by a car on the road.

Any experienced dog owner will know that some dogs like to roam, and this is a great way to stop them. Far better than having your dog dropped off at your door by the owner of the sheep it savaged.

For the urbanites amongst us - farmers usually return your dog if they find it attacking sheep. They shoot the dog and return it: It is to make a point. The Law supports them on this and they are entitled to shoot any dog worrying livestock.

What next, I ask? A ban on electric cattle fences? An end to barbed wire? No more thorny hedges? Letting dogs roam free over the fields?

Get a sense of proportion, dogs can be dangerous animals, especially in packs, and a stubborn dog will get out unless caged.

This is a successful way of containing a dog in an environment when locking it into a cage isn't an option. Yes, it shocks them (once) but a lot better a shocked dog, than a dead dog, or a child attacked, or a sheep savaged.

Build a wooden fence or get a dog run, much more safer and reliable and dont inflict pain on your dog.
Electric collars are the easy way out for the owner, not the dog.:mad:

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 2:42pm

TillyGirl wrote: »

Why can't you build a wall/fence instead of giving your dog a shock? People go on that it's a great fence to keep dogs in but it's not, a regular fence works perfectly well and doesnt hurt the dog.

My pointer has been on top of my back wall which is about 7.5 ft:eek: he can clear the side gate which is about my chest height.

no matter what you say they do work, you might not like them but some people do

DBB · 20-07-2011 2:49pm

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

DBB wrote: »

I didnt know you could get a qualification to diagnose phycologocal suffering of a dog without ever meeting the dog

Does a person need qualifications in anything to know that getting a shock isn't nice? Are you telling me that your dog enjoyed the experience?
I'm always mystified by people justifying hurting their dog, or any animal for that matter, by saying it's 'discomfort' not 'pain'. I know I'd rather not have either, I certainly wouldn't like anyone trying to teach me by shocking me for it.
I dont know how anyone can shock their dog and then say they're doing their best either.

toadfly · 20-07-2011 2:49pm

I'm not saying they don't work, they do but by inflicting pain and fear.

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 2:55pm

DBB wrote: »

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Does a person need qualifications in anything to know that getting a shock isn't nice? Are you telling me that your dog enjoyed the experience?
I'm always mystified by people justifying hurting their dog, or any animal for that matter, by saying it's 'discomfort' not 'pain'. I know I'd rather not have either, I certainly wouldn't like anyone trying to teach me by shocking me for it.
I dont know how anyone can shock their dog and then say they're doing their best either.

of course he didnt enjoy it but it was a couple of seconds of discomfort and he learned from it, he was happy out seconds after it happened and straight back to doing his job. im not justifying anything because im telling you it does not hurt and i say that from having tried it.

Wolfe Tone · 20-07-2011 3:00pm

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

had a problem with one of my dogs, he decided to start chasing sheep which i couldn't have because we are around sheep nearly every day and if something happened the farmer would not be happy. I tried everything for weeks and could not get him to stop, i had help from others too and nothing worked. In the end 2 blasts of a shock collar when he chased them sorted the problem in a short afternoon and he has not done it since, this dogis very happy well looked after and loves getting out every evening. I think shock collars are great if used right

Exactly, if you are sensible about it it can work wonders.

Of course the animal rights brigade will be out for your blood now, they obviously prefer to have dogs attacking sheep.

ISDW · 20-07-2011 3:07pm

Karma25 wrote: »

The shock of it hence maybe the name Its hard to describe it didn't cause pain like banging your hand of a door or falling and hitting the floor. It's a vibration and then a numbness.

Please don't be ridiculous electric shocks hurt, you don't have to describe it, I have had an electric shock, it hurts.

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Ah come on now seriously are you saying electric fences hurt now too?? i often see kids lining up touching electric fences, i used to do it when i was a kid, Dont know many kids who enjoy hurting themselves. they dont hurt they just give you a shock

You obviously don't know much about kids, or indeed adults, what about the electrick shock pens and games that were all the rage a couple of years ago. Yes, they hurt, no, its not an excrutiating pain, but it does hurt.

wildefalcon wrote: »

I think they are great!

The dog is trained not to approach the wire, which is identified to the dog by flags.

The system is OFF at this time.

Then the system is switched on and the training repeated, when the system emits an audible warning to the dog, from the collar.

By that time the dog is trained to come away from the wire.

Over time the flags are removed.

If, like me, you have ever had a dog killed by speeding motorists, you will appreciate these dog fences. They work. I wished I'd had one when I had my first dog, killed by a car on the road.

Any experienced dog owner will know that some dogs like to roam, and this is a great way to stop them. Far better than having your dog dropped off at your door by the owner of the sheep it savaged.

For the urbanites amongst us - farmers usually return your dog if they find it attacking sheep. They shoot the dog and return it: It is to make a point. The Law supports them on this and they are entitled to shoot any dog worrying livestock.

What next, I ask? A ban on electric cattle fences? An end to barbed wire? No more thorny hedges? Letting dogs roam free over the fields?

Get a sense of proportion, dogs can be dangerous animals, especially in packs, and a stubborn dog will get out unless caged.

This is a successful way of containing a dog in an environment when locking it into a cage isn't an option. Yes, it shocks them (once) but a lot better a shocked dog, than a dead dog, or a child attacked, or a sheep savaged.

Here we go again, if you don't live in the country, you don't get it, everybody that is against these types of fences aren't country people. Please can we change the record. I live in the country, I have 6 foot fencing all around my property to keep my dogs in. Simples. These electric containment fences don't work for all dogs, some dogs with high prey drives will take the pain to get out, but they aren't stupid enough to take the pain to get back in.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Exactly, if you are sensible about it it can work wonders.

Of course the animal rights brigade will be out for your blood now, they obviously prefer to have dogs attacking sheep.

You are being ridiculous. Last year I had a phone call from a distraught woman who's two huskies had got out, their electric fence had always worked before, but not on this day, the day they went for a wander and got into a field of sheep. Where they shot by the farmer. She couldn't understand why he had to shoot her dogs, as they weren't worrying the sheep. I totally understand the farmer's point of view. I get so many people contacting me because of these wonderful electric fences that don't work and their dogs get lost, shot or run over.

I wonder if the prevelance of sheep attacks has increased in Wales since these fences were banned? I'm guessing not.

DBB · 20-07-2011 3:09pm

@wildefalcon
Perhaps I'm in a position to comment, as I have used the radio fence as a containment system. I justified it then just as you do now. I'll never really forgive myself for using it, but I was ignorant of their drawbacks at the time.
The dog doesn't only get shocked once. My dogs would grit their teeth and take the shock to follow me across it, or to Chase a cat. They'd actually whimper and yelp as they ran across it.
The fence is ineffective when there's a power cut or when the batteries die.
I know quite a few dogs who have developed behavioural problems from getting shocked at inopportune moments, like a child or other dog standing beside the dog just as he got the belt. These dogs 'blamed' the child/other dog and developed fearful and/or aggressive behaviour towards them. I even know one dog who was killed by other dogs that came into his garden. He couldn't escape them because of the fence. And I know several dogs and have heard of many others that have learned to outfox the fence by sitting just within reach of it, letting the alarm go off, wearing down the battery after about 20mins, then heading off for a stroll. A considerable number of dogs end up in the pounds every year wearing these collars, testament to their failure.
You just can't beat a good wall or fence. If your dog jumps the wall, angle a couple of threads of wire in from the top of it. I'm always suspicious about why a dog would want to keep escaping in any case.
Any training method that resorts to using pain is just not acceptable. There is always a humane alternative. That using more positive, pain-free methods requires a bit of knowledge, initiative, and sometimes money is not an excuse, for people who won't utilise these qualities, to harm their dog's wellbeing. Personally, having used one of these fences in ignorance, I cannot accept any argument for their use.

DBB · 20-07-2011 3:17pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Of course the animal rights brigade will be out for your blood now, they obviously prefer to have dogs attacking sheep.

Yawn.

Surely the animal rights brigade wouldn't want to see any animal being hurt or killed? A bit of an oxymoron there, but thanks for the laugh.

I never considered myself to be in any animal rights brigade, but I can tell you that I wouldn't like to see sheep being killed. I would, however, like to see dog owners having a proper physical barrier to stop them getting out, and to have their dogs trained well enough that they can recall the dog should it Chase livestock out on a walk.

ISDW · 20-07-2011 3:20pm

If all that these collars do is to give the dogs a 'shock'. Then why can't you do the same to the dog without actually touching it to teach them not to roam or to chase sheep. The term 'shock' is being used in this thread by some posters as in an unexpected thing. So when the dog is about to do something it shouldn't, shout at it, bang a tin bucket with something metal or similar, would that not give the dog a shock?

I am not advocating doing these things, but what is the difference?

star-pants · 20-07-2011 3:27pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Of course the animal rights brigade will be out for your blood now, they obviously prefer to have dogs attacking sheep.

That's a bit unfair, it's not the case that people want dogs to attack sheep, rather that they feel people should implement other methods of restraining their dogs without having to resort to shock collars.

Mod Hat - I think some people need to calm slightly and also to not make generalising statements. Shock Collar threads are always difficult to mod and I would rather allow a decent discussion than have to lock a thread because of bickering.

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 3:30pm

ISDW wrote: »

If all that these collars do is to give the dogs a 'shock'. Then why can't you do the same to the dog without actually touching it to teach them not to roam or to chase sheep. The term 'shock' is being used in this thread by some posters as in an unexpected thing. So when the dog is about to do something it shouldn't, shout at it, bang a tin bucket with something metal or similar, would that not give the dog a shock? 
 
I am not advocating doing these things, but what is the difference?

just on your point about shouting at the dog or banging a bucket r that to get its attention to stop. First time my dog took chase if a sheep i shouted and he kept gong, i then fired two shots into the air and he still kept going! two shocks while i shouted to come here was enough for my lad, now come here works on its own

Zapperzy · 20-07-2011 3:30pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Exactly, if you are sensible about it it can work wonders.

Of course the animal rights brigade will be out for your blood now, they obviously prefer to have dogs attacking sheep.

I am part of no animal rights group, I am out for no one's bloods, I am simply against shock collars. I own a dog and before I got him my garden was securely fenced and enclosed. He is a small terrier less than a foot in height yet the fence and gates all around the garden are about 6 ft in height and there are double gates either side of the house so if he did manage to escape one set of gates he'd have to go through another. I am completely against dogs attacking sheep, I hate hearing of sheep being savaged just as much as I hate hearing of dogs being attacked. But the answer is build a fence and if that isin't possible then build a dog run or supervise your dog when he is outside.

Oh yes and I also live in the country so I'm not one of these dumb city dwellers that just don't understand country folk that people keep talking about. Honestly if that was being said about people living in some built up sprawling city in america who have never left the city nevermind actually seen a sheep but seriously this is Ireland and you don't have to go too far to see a sheep. :rolleyes:

Wolfe Tone · 20-07-2011 4:24pm

star-pants wrote: »

That's a bit unfair, it's not the case that people want dogs to attack sheep, rather that they feel people should implement other methods of restraining their dogs without having to resort to shock collars.

Mod Hat - I think some people need to calm slightly and also to not make generalising statements. Shock Collar threads are always difficult to mod and I would rather allow a decent discussion than have to lock a thread because of bickering.

The man tried lots of other methods and none worked. The suggestions where runs etc, he said this happens when he is out hunting and the shock collar has helped.

Wolfe Tone · 20-07-2011 4:25pm

Zapperzy wrote: »

I am part of no animal rights group, I am out for no one's bloods, I am simply against shock collars. I own a dog and before I got him my garden was securely fenced and enclosed. He is a small terrier less than a foot in height yet the fence and gates all around the garden are about 6 ft in height and there are double gates either side of the house so if he did manage to escape one set of gates he'd have to go through another. I am completely against dogs attacking sheep, I hate hearing of sheep being savaged just as much as I hate hearing of dogs being attacked. But the answer is build a fence and if that isin't possible then build a dog run or supervise your dog when he is outside.

Oh yes and I also live in the country so I'm not one of these dumb city dwellers that just don't understand country folk that people keep talking about. Honestly if that was being said about people living in some built up sprawling city in america who have never left the city nevermind actually seen a sheep but seriously this is Ireland and you don't have to go too far to see a sheep. :rolleyes:

Yes, building a fence would help while he has his dog out hunting... lol

Zapperzy · 20-07-2011 5:13pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Yes, building a fence would help while he has his dog out hunting... lol

I actually wasn't referring to any particular case at all.

ISDW · 20-07-2011 5:27pm

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

 
just on your point about shouting at the dog or banging a bucket r that to get its attention to stop. First time my dog took chase if a sheep i shouted and he kept gong, i then fired two shots into the air and he still kept going! two shocks while i shouted to come here was enough for my lad, now come here works on its own

Well that appears then to prove that it is not the 'shock' of the thing that worked, but rather the pain that was inflicted doesn't it?

iguana · 20-07-2011 5:58pm

I think everyone has actually missed the main point I picked up from that article. The dog in question is regularly seen roaming while wearing the collar which the owner got in order to stop it roaming. It clearly didn't work. If it did the owner would never have been fined as nobody would have seen his dog roaming with the collar on.

I have experienced these collars and they don't hurt. They don't give an electric shock at all, what they give is a sharp vibration which shocks the holder. It's the same as the sensation dealt by the controllers of Shocking Tanks types games. http://www.shockingfun.com/Shocking_Tank_p/shocktank.htm They certainly aren't cruel or dangerous, they wouldn't be the same as something which is part of a children's game if they were. But by the same token they are generally as effective as teaching your dog discipline by setting off the Buckaroo donkey whenever he does something forbidden.

ppink · 20-07-2011 6:31pm

Iguana that is interesting. I had asked that question before on one of these threads as I have never experienced a shock collar. The answer i got by one of those that use them was that it was like an electric shock. Maybe they are all different I dont know? It would explain the burns that dogs get from them?

Electric shock hurts me and i am no fairy:o. I could rip the arms off myself cutting timber or whatever and not feel it but electric shocks really bother me. then the question has to be asked are some of us creatures more sensitive than others?

the thing that bugs me most with these items is that you could easily see it getting out of hand, especially the remote ones where you zap the dog.......cue a load of eejits getting hold of them and zapping the hell out of dogs out of anger or just for the crack.
Also I think that certain dogs are just not set up for them. One of our dogs peed on an electric fence one day, he sreamed his head off and ran into the shed, took his 2 buddies with him and none of them would come back out of that shed for 3 days:eek:

Karma25 · 20-07-2011 6:56pm

ISDW wrote: »

Please don't be ridiculous electric shocks hurt, you don't have to describe it, I have had an electric shock, it hurts.

I don't think I'm being ridiculous. I don't think electric fencing hurts in MY experience. Everybody has a different opinion on it. Like I said I don't use them but if somebody feels that they need to and they have tried it on themselves well then let them.

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 7:01pm

ISDW wrote: »

Well that appears then to prove that it is not the 'shock' of the thing that worked, but rather the pain that was inflicted doesn't it?

i think the shock of it was enough to break his concentration from the sheep and concentrate on me telling him to come back

DBB · 20-07-2011 7:04pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The man tried lots of other methods and none worked. The suggestions where runs etc, he said this happens when he is out hunting and the shock collar has helped.

The man has used lots of ineffectual methods which haven't worked. Certainly nothing that he described thus far would strike me as being particularly effective to deal with this problem.
When people resort to using punitive techniques on a dog, it is an act of desperation and ignorance. I can't think of any examples right now of this not being the case.
Like I've said before, a bit of forethought, planning, and knowledge ofy how animals learn, will help solve or lessen a huge amount of behavioural and training issues. It's just that the owners I've described above can't grasp that there are always alternatives which don't involve any abuse.

Whispered · 20-07-2011 7:06pm

Nobody is suggesting that they don't work, the have proven to be very effective for people who don't "have time" to train their dogs in another way or who don't use safer methods to contain their dogs.

People saying they don't hurt may not have seen the injuries these cause. I know one golden retriever who has a bald patch on her neck which regularly gets infected due to one of these. It doesn't contain her, but it does stop her coming back into the garden. Obviously the lure of getting out makes her grit her teeth and run for it. I've also known a boxer who constantly escaped due to one of these, he used to break out then pace the road unable to get back in. He eventually got hit by a car.

Kildare, in 40 years, my father has never had a dog who would chase sheep while out hunting. Younger dogs are trained with older dogs who are serious about their work. If your dog was focused enough on you - his trainer, and his job then sheep chasing would not really be on his mind. In my opinion a dog who does not have bomb proof recall is simply not well trained enough to be off lead around sheep, or any livestock. Don't get me wrong, my own dog would have to go back on a lead if walking through livestock; just to be on the safe side, but that's ok as he doesn't need to be off like yours.

How would it have been dealt with years ago? If they are made illegal and you get another dog with sheep chasing tendancies, how would you deal with it?

Widefalcon - if these fences are made illegal what will you do?

Any experienced dog owner (your words not mine) will know that it's far far safer to contain your dog using traditional methods, the shock fences allow for so much to go wrong. Even if you don't believe the shock to be cruel - can't you see how easily they can get out, or how easily someone can walk into your garden and take your dog, other dogs can get in too. Just this week we had a little herd of sheep wandering into our front garden

(does anybody know what the legal standing is if injury is caused to livestock if they break into your property)

I think it silly that you would suggest that only city people would care about an issue like this, a lot of country people dislike these methods too. A sweeping statement would suggest that country people commonly use methods like this - as someone from a rural area this upsets me as it's simply not true.

I think most people are well aware that a farmer can shoot your dog on sight, it's a worry for most of us, even those of us with proper fencing for our dogs. I wonder if you would be surprised at how many of these dogs are returned with their shock collar still on. I know one farmer who has shot 2 in the past year.

kildare.17hmr · 20-07-2011 7:16pm

whispered i agree about the recall and it was not a problem until that day, i then went back to basics and in the end the collar worked and now no problem around livestock off lead. I didn't have anyone with an older dog to run him with at the time.

DBB · 20-07-2011 7:26pm

iguana wrote: »

I have experienced these collars and they don't hurt. They don't give an electric shock at all, what they give is a sharp vibration which shocks the holder.

Petsafe, Manufacturers of a radio fence system, describe it as a "static correction". Is static correction not a shock? I have been at the receiving end of these collars, both radio fence and remote collars, and it certainly is not a sensation of vibration, it is a shock!
There are vibrating collars you can get, often used on deaf dogs with training so they learn you're trying to get their attention. These do not hurt at all. I wonder is it these you're thinking of?

Speaking of using remote collars abusively, I know one man who uses it to find his dog in heavy cover. He presses the button, the dog yelps, so yer man knows where the dog is.
Which begs the question, if it doesn't hurt, why does the dog yelp?
People have tried to defend these electronic systems by saying they're no worse than an electric fence. Is it not true that a belt off an electric fence can destroy a gundog by breaking his confidence? A remote collar is no different because it is a random shock which has the strong potential to be misinterpreted by the dog, leading to some disturbing phobic behaviours. In my opinion, using them to stop an unwanted behaviour could have such a side-effect. So you were lucky OP. You were, but your poor oul dog wasn't. Not that it matters, sure isn't he cured now?

iguana · 20-07-2011 7:37pm

DBB wrote: »

Petsafe, Manufacturers of a radio fence system, describe it as a "static correction". Is static correction not a shock? I have been at the receiving end of these collars, both radio fence and remote collars, and it certainly is not a sensation of vibration, it is a shock!
There are vibrating collars you can get, often used on deaf dogs with training so they learn you're trying to get their attention. These do not hurt at all. I wonder is it these you're thinking of?

Well the ones I saw were in a packet claiming they were shock collars. (They were in a box of charity donations and I felt them out of curiosity.) As ppink suggested perhaps they are different depending on the manufacturer. The ones I felt were definitely a strong vibration, the exact same as the Shocking Tanks game.

Whispered · 20-07-2011 7:54pm

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

whispered i agree about the recall and it was not a problem until that day, i then went back to basics and in the end the collar worked and now no problem around livestock off lead. I didn't have anyone with an older dog to run him with at the time.

Did you feel at all uneasy about using it? If it was made illegal here, how would you deal with it then?

I'd prefer to see a ban, simply to ensure that the people who use them excessively or in place of proper training are stopped.

DBB wrote: »

Is it not true that a belt off an electric fence can destroy a gundog by breaking his confidence?

A poor old lurcher of ours was stepping over an electric fence which my mam had stood on to let us walk over (we were kids) she let it up before he was fully clear and it hit his behind. He let a roar and ran away from my mother & Wouldn't go near her for days. He thought it was her. Poor fella. He's dead 14 years and I still miss him.

Such a character.

Shanao · 20-07-2011 8:03pm

I absolutely abhor the usage of these as I've seen them do a lot of damage, psychologically. If not used properly, the dog finds it hard to associate it with the thing the shock is supposed to be associated with. For example, a friend of mine had a lab a few years ago, when the dog was young she kept getting out so they put in a boundary shock collar. The poor dog used to run up to greet people coming in the gate and got shocked so many times that she developed a terrible fear of people she didn't know very well. I stayed at their house for two weeks straight, and insisted on feeding the dog every single day so she eventually trusted me enough to let me near her. Anyone else though, she ran howling the instant they pulled up outside the gate.

They are fairly ineffective anyway; the boundary one for example, depending on what breed your using it on, it probably wont stop them. A husky is going to have a high prey drive, something small runs past, that dog is going to go straight over the wire, shock or not, to get what it wants. Bitches in heat/dogs chasing will be the exact same. So as far as i can see they are unnecesary and cruel when you can simply train the dog out of the unwanted behaviour.

Zapperzy · 20-07-2011 11:42pm

Just to add that I was talking to a vet nurse who works up the north, she was saying that years ago where her practice is based the council were recieving so many complaints about dogs barking they started handing out shock collars to dog owners. At the same time her practice had quite a number of dogs in with severe burns to their neck.

If these things aren't banned I would at least like to see some sort of regulations as regards who can buy and sell them as at the moment any joe soap can buy them and shock the hell out of his dog day and night, at least if there was some sort of a licensing system it would reduce the amount of people buying them and might make people look at alternatives such as more humane methods.

kildare.17hmr · 21-07-2011 8:39am

Whispered wrote: »

Did you feel at all uneasy about using it? If it was made illegal here, how would you deal with it then?

I'd prefer to see a ban, simply to ensure that the people who use them excessively or in place of proper training are stopped.

I didnt feel uneasy about it to be honest because i didnt want him running a sheep into a fence. Now maybe the one i got is not as strong as these ones people are talking about that are burning dogs neck, i would not do that to a dog, but the one i got did not hurt.

I would agree they defo should not be used excessively. some of the storys people have refered to about them burning dogs is not on at all

Master and commander · 21-07-2011 10:20am

my sister got one for her dog because he kept chasing cars. Now he doesn't and he has a whole acre and the yard or the house to run around and explore, which he does quite hapily.

It is crueler to imprison a dog in a run where it must spend most of its time and become bored. The dog got a fright from it first time but has not crossed the line since and appears quite happy.

I used the thing on myself, and i would say it is uncomfortable but not painful.
I have also gotten a good few raps off electric fences - again uncomfortable but not exactly painful like you are suggesting but it only lasts a split second and then its over. Remember they are for large cattle and very powerful. You cannot equate a corrective shock to some kind of KBG type torture. Get a life.

Banning them is just another part of the tree huggers and PC brigates agenda. If they had their way, they would ban farmers using electric fences in their fileds. FFS

I once heard someone of them on the radio saying not to buy mouse trap ffs. Go get a life, we do much worse things to humans.

andreac · 21-07-2011 10:30am

Master and commander wrote: »

my sister got one for her dog because he kept chasing cars. Now he doesn't and he has a whole acre and the yard or the house to run around and explore, which he does quite hapily.

It is crueler to imprison a dog in a run where it must spend most of its time and become bored. The dog got a fright from it first time but has not crossed the line since and appears quite happy.

I used the thing on myself, and i would say it is uncomfortable but not painful.
I have also gotten a good few raps off electric fences - again uncomfortable but not exactly painful like you are suggesting but it only lasts a split second and then its over. Remember they are for large cattle and very powerful. You cannot equate a corrective shock to some kind of KBG type torture. Get a life.

Banning them is just another part of the tree huggers and PC brigates agenda. If they had their way, they would ban farmers using electric fences in their fileds. FFS

I once heard someone of them on the radio saying not to buy mouse trap ffs. Go get a life, we do much worse things to humans.

Being contained in a dog run is a lot safer and more reliable and doesnt inflict pain on them.
Once a dog is getting enough daily exercise it wont get bored, you cannot use that as an excuse for not using a dog run:rolleyes:

What do you think your dog does all day when you arent around?? They dont continually gallop and run around the whole garden, they usually curl up and go asleep and chill out until their owner comes back. So why the need to have the use of a garden without a safe fence or barrier?

Those fences are not fool proof in any way and your dog can still get out if it wants to.

Have you read where people have said that many dogs have crosed through the fence and been killed, run over, attacked etc etc? This wouldnt happen if the dog was contained responsibly and safely and shock collar fence does not do this.

Shock Collar user fined in Wales

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