Shock Collar user fined in Wales

Zapperzy

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Exactly, if you are sensible about it it can work wonders.


Of course the animal rights brigade will be out for your blood now, they obviously prefer to have dogs attacking sheep.

I am part of no animal rights group, I am out for no one's bloods, I am simply against shock collars. I own a dog and before I got him my garden was securely fenced and enclosed. He is a small terrier less than a foot in height yet the fence and gates all around the garden are about 6 ft in height and there are double gates either side of the house so if he did manage to escape one set of gates he'd have to go through another. I am completely against dogs attacking sheep, I hate hearing of sheep being savaged just as much as I hate hearing of dogs being attacked. But the answer is build a fence and if that isin't possible then build a dog run or supervise your dog when he is outside.

Oh yes and I also live in the country so I'm not one of these dumb city dwellers that just don't understand country folk that people keep talking about. Honestly if that was being said about people living in some built up sprawling city in america who have never left the city nevermind actually seen a sheep but seriously this is Ireland and you don't have to go too far to see a sheep. :rolleyes:

Wolfe Tone

star-pants wrote: »

That's a bit unfair, it's not the case that people want dogs to attack sheep, rather that they feel people should implement other methods of restraining their dogs without having to resort to shock collars.

Mod Hat - I think some people need to calm slightly and also to not make generalising statements. Shock Collar threads are always difficult to mod and I would rather allow a decent discussion than have to lock a thread because of bickering.

The man tried lots of other methods and none worked. The suggestions where runs etc, he said this happens when he is out hunting and the shock collar has helped.

Wolfe Tone

Zapperzy wrote: »

I am part of no animal rights group, I am out for no one's bloods, I am simply against shock collars. I own a dog and before I got him my garden was securely fenced and enclosed. He is a small terrier less than a foot in height yet the fence and gates all around the garden are about 6 ft in height and there are double gates either side of the house so if he did manage to escape one set of gates he'd have to go through another. I am completely against dogs attacking sheep, I hate hearing of sheep being savaged just as much as I hate hearing of dogs being attacked. But the answer is build a fence and if that isin't possible then build a dog run or supervise your dog when he is outside.

Oh yes and I also live in the country so I'm not one of these dumb city dwellers that just don't understand country folk that people keep talking about. Honestly if that was being said about people living in some built up sprawling city in america who have never left the city nevermind actually seen a sheep but seriously this is Ireland and you don't have to go too far to see a sheep. :rolleyes:

Yes, building a fence would help while he has his dog out hunting... lol

Zapperzy

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Yes, building a fence would help while he has his dog out hunting... lol

I actually wasn't referring to any particular case at all.

ISDW

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

<br /><br />
just on your point about shouting at the dog or banging a bucket r that to get its attention to stop. First time my dog took chase if a sheep i shouted and he kept gong, i then fired two shots into the air and he still kept going! two shocks while i shouted to come here was enough for my lad, now come here works on its own

Well that appears then to prove that it is not the 'shock' of the thing that worked, but rather the pain that was inflicted doesn't it?

iguana

I think everyone has actually missed the main point I picked up from that article. The dog in question is regularly seen roaming while wearing the collar which the owner got in order to stop it roaming. It clearly didn't work. If it did the owner would never have been fined as nobody would have seen his dog roaming with the collar on.

I have experienced these collars and they don't hurt. They don't give an electric shock at all, what they give is a sharp vibration which shocks the holder. It's the same as the sensation dealt by the controllers of Shocking Tanks types games. http://www.shockingfun.com/Shocking_Tank_p/shocktank.htm They certainly aren't cruel or dangerous, they wouldn't be the same as something which is part of a children's game if they were. But by the same token they are generally as effective as teaching your dog discipline by setting off the Buckaroo donkey whenever he does something forbidden.

ppink

Iguana that is interesting. I had asked that question before on one of these threads as I have never experienced a shock collar. The answer i got by one of those that use them was that it was like an electric shock. Maybe they are all different I dont know? It would explain the burns that dogs get from them?

Electric shock hurts me and i am no fairy:o. I could rip the arms off myself cutting timber or whatever and not feel it but electric shocks really bother me. then the question has to be asked are some of us creatures more sensitive than others?

the thing that bugs me most with these items is that you could easily see it getting out of hand, especially the remote ones where you zap the dog.......cue a load of eejits getting hold of them and zapping the hell out of dogs out of anger or just for the crack.
Also I think that certain dogs are just not set up for them. One of our dogs peed on an electric fence one day, he sreamed his head off and ran into the shed, took his 2 buddies with him and none of them would come back out of that shed for 3 days:eek:

Karma25

ISDW wrote: »

Please don't be ridiculous electric shocks hurt, you don't have to describe it, I have had an electric shock, it hurts.

I don't think I'm being ridiculous. I don't think electric fencing hurts in MY experience. Everybody has a different opinion on it. Like I said I don't use them but if somebody feels that they need to and they have tried it on themselves well then let them.

kildare.17hmr

ISDW wrote: »

Well that appears then to prove that it is not the 'shock' of the thing that worked, but rather the pain that was inflicted doesn't it?

i think the shock of it was enough to break his concentration from the sheep and concentrate on me telling him to come back

DBB

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The man tried lots of other methods and none worked. The suggestions where runs etc, he said this happens when he is out hunting and the shock collar has helped.

The man has used lots of ineffectual methods which haven't worked. Certainly nothing that he described thus far would strike me as being particularly effective to deal with this problem.
When people resort to using punitive techniques on a dog, it is an act of desperation and ignorance. I can't think of any examples right now of this not being the case.
Like I've said before, a bit of forethought, planning, and knowledge ofy how animals learn, will help solve or lessen a huge amount of behavioural and training issues. It's just that the owners I've described above can't grasp that there are always alternatives which don't involve any abuse.

Whispered

Nobody is suggesting that they don't work, the have proven to be very effective for people who don't "have time" to train their dogs in another way or who don't use safer methods to contain their dogs.

People saying they don't hurt may not have seen the injuries these cause. I know one golden retriever who has a bald patch on her neck which regularly gets infected due to one of these. It doesn't contain her, but it does stop her coming back into the garden. Obviously the lure of getting out makes her grit her teeth and run for it. I've also known a boxer who constantly escaped due to one of these, he used to break out then pace the road unable to get back in. He eventually got hit by a car.

Kildare, in 40 years, my father has never had a dog who would chase sheep while out hunting. Younger dogs are trained with older dogs who are serious about their work. If your dog was focused enough on you - his trainer, and his job then sheep chasing would not really be on his mind. In my opinion a dog who does not have bomb proof recall is simply not well trained enough to be off lead around sheep, or any livestock. Don't get me wrong, my own dog would have to go back on a lead if walking through livestock; just to be on the safe side, but that's ok as he doesn't need to be off like yours.

How would it have been dealt with years ago? If they are made illegal and you get another dog with sheep chasing tendancies, how would you deal with it?

Widefalcon - if these fences are made illegal what will you do?

Any experienced dog owner (your words not mine) will know that it's far far safer to contain your dog using traditional methods, the shock fences allow for so much to go wrong. Even if you don't believe the shock to be cruel - can't you see how easily they can get out, or how easily someone can walk into your garden and take your dog, other dogs can get in too. Just this week we had a little herd of sheep wandering into our front garden (does anybody know what the legal standing is if injury is caused to livestock if they break into your property)

I think it silly that you would suggest that only city people would care about an issue like this, a lot of country people dislike these methods too. A sweeping statement would suggest that country people commonly use methods like this - as someone from a rural area this upsets me as it's simply not true.

I think most people are well aware that a farmer can shoot your dog on sight, it's a worry for most of us, even those of us with proper fencing for our dogs. I wonder if you would be surprised at how many of these dogs are returned with their shock collar still on. I know one farmer who has shot 2 in the past year.

kildare.17hmr

whispered i agree about the recall and it was not a problem until that day, i then went back to basics and in the end the collar worked and now no problem around livestock off lead. I didn't have anyone with an older dog to run him with at the time.

DBB

iguana wrote: »

I have experienced these collars and they don't hurt. They don't give an electric shock at all, what they give is a sharp vibration which shocks the holder.

Petsafe, Manufacturers of a radio fence system, describe it as a "static correction". Is static correction not a shock? I have been at the receiving end of these collars, both radio fence and remote collars, and it certainly is not a sensation of vibration, it is a shock!
There are vibrating collars you can get, often used on deaf dogs with training so they learn you're trying to get their attention. These do not hurt at all. I wonder is it these you're thinking of?

Speaking of using remote collars abusively, I know one man who uses it to find his dog in heavy cover. He presses the button, the dog yelps, so yer man knows where the dog is.
Which begs the question, if it doesn't hurt, why does the dog yelp?
People have tried to defend these electronic systems by saying they're no worse than an electric fence. Is it not true that a belt off an electric fence can destroy a gundog by breaking his confidence? A remote collar is no different because it is a random shock which has the strong potential to be misinterpreted by the dog, leading to some disturbing phobic behaviours. In my opinion, using them to stop an unwanted behaviour could have such a side-effect. So you were lucky OP. You were, but your poor oul dog wasn't. Not that it matters, sure isn't he cured now?

iguana

DBB wrote: »

Petsafe, Manufacturers of a radio fence system, describe it as a "static correction". Is static correction not a shock? I have been at the receiving end of these collars, both radio fence and remote collars, and it certainly is not a sensation of vibration, it is a shock!
There are vibrating collars you can get, often used on deaf dogs with training so they learn you're trying to get their attention. These do not hurt at all. I wonder is it these you're thinking of?

Well the ones I saw were in a packet claiming they were shock collars. (They were in a box of charity donations and I felt them out of curiosity.) As ppink suggested perhaps they are different depending on the manufacturer. The ones I felt were definitely a strong vibration, the exact same as the Shocking Tanks game.

Whispered

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

whispered i agree about the recall and it was not a problem until that day, i then went back to basics and in the end the collar worked and now no problem around livestock off lead. I didn't have anyone with an older dog to run him with at the time.

Did you feel at all uneasy about using it? If it was made illegal here, how would you deal with it then?

I'd prefer to see a ban, simply to ensure that the people who use them excessively or in place of proper training are stopped.

DBB wrote: »

Is it not true that a belt off an electric fence can destroy a gundog by breaking his confidence?

A poor old lurcher of ours was stepping over an electric fence which my mam had stood on to let us walk over (we were kids) she let it up before he was fully clear and it hit his behind. He let a roar and ran away from my mother & Wouldn't go near her for days. He thought it was her. Poor fella. He's dead 14 years and I still miss him. Such a character.

Shanao

I absolutely abhor the usage of these as I've seen them do a lot of damage, psychologically. If not used properly, the dog finds it hard to associate it with the thing the shock is supposed to be associated with. For example, a friend of mine had a lab a few years ago, when the dog was young she kept getting out so they put in a boundary shock collar. The poor dog used to run up to greet people coming in the gate and got shocked so many times that she developed a terrible fear of people she didn't know very well. I stayed at their house for two weeks straight, and insisted on feeding the dog every single day so she eventually trusted me enough to let me near her. Anyone else though, she ran howling the instant they pulled up outside the gate.

They are fairly ineffective anyway; the boundary one for example, depending on what breed your using it on, it probably wont stop them. A husky is going to have a high prey drive, something small runs past, that dog is going to go straight over the wire, shock or not, to get what it wants. Bitches in heat/dogs chasing will be the exact same. So as far as i can see they are unnecesary and cruel when you can simply train the dog out of the unwanted behaviour.

Zapperzy

Just to add that I was talking to a vet nurse who works up the north, she was saying that years ago where her practice is based the council were recieving so many complaints about dogs barking they started handing out shock collars to dog owners. At the same time her practice had quite a number of dogs in with severe burns to their neck.

If these things aren't banned I would at least like to see some sort of regulations as regards who can buy and sell them as at the moment any joe soap can buy them and shock the hell out of his dog day and night, at least if there was some sort of a licensing system it would reduce the amount of people buying them and might make people look at alternatives such as more humane methods.

kildare.17hmr

Whispered wrote: »

Did you feel at all uneasy about using it? If it was made illegal here, how would you deal with it then?

I'd prefer to see a ban, simply to ensure that the people who use them excessively or in place of proper training are stopped.

I didnt feel uneasy about it to be honest because i didnt want him running a sheep into a fence. Now maybe the one i got is not as strong as these ones people are talking about that are burning dogs neck, i would not do that to a dog, but the one i got did not hurt.

I would agree they defo should not be used excessively. some of the storys people have refered to about them burning dogs is not on at all

Master and commander

my sister got one for her dog because he kept chasing cars. Now he doesn't and he has a whole acre and the yard or the house to run around and explore, which he does quite hapily.

It is crueler to imprison a dog in a run where it must spend most of its time and become bored. The dog got a fright from it first time but has not crossed the line since and appears quite happy.

I used the thing on myself, and i would say it is uncomfortable but not painful.
I have also gotten a good few raps off electric fences - again uncomfortable but not exactly painful like you are suggesting but it only lasts a split second and then its over. Remember they are for large cattle and very powerful. You cannot equate a corrective shock to some kind of KBG type torture. Get a life.

Banning them is just another part of the tree huggers and PC brigates agenda. If they had their way, they would ban farmers using electric fences in their fileds. FFS

I once heard someone of them on the radio saying not to buy mouse trap ffs. Go get a life, we do much worse things to humans.

andreac

Master and commander wrote: »

my sister got one for her dog because he kept chasing cars. Now he doesn't and he has a whole acre and the yard or the house to run around and explore, which he does quite hapily.

It is crueler to imprison a dog in a run where it must spend most of its time and become bored. The dog got a fright from it first time but has not crossed the line since and appears quite happy.

I used the thing on myself, and i would say it is uncomfortable but not painful.
I have also gotten a good few raps off electric fences - again uncomfortable but not exactly painful like you are suggesting but it only lasts a split second and then its over. Remember they are for large cattle and very powerful. You cannot equate a corrective shock to some kind of KBG type torture. Get a life.

Banning them is just another part of the tree huggers and PC brigates agenda. If they had their way, they would ban farmers using electric fences in their fileds. FFS

I once heard someone of them on the radio saying not to buy mouse trap ffs. Go get a life, we do much worse things to humans.

Being contained in a dog run is a lot safer and more reliable and doesnt inflict pain on them.
Once a dog is getting enough daily exercise it wont get bored, you cannot use that as an excuse for not using a dog run:rolleyes:

What do you think your dog does all day when you arent around?? They dont continually gallop and run around the whole garden, they usually curl up and go asleep and chill out until their owner comes back. So why the need to have the use of a garden without a safe fence or barrier?

Those fences are not fool proof in any way and your dog can still get out if it wants to.

Have you read where people have said that many dogs have crosed through the fence and been killed, run over, attacked etc etc? This wouldnt happen if the dog was contained responsibly and safely and shock collar fence does not do this.

Whispered

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

I didnt feel uneasy about it to be honest because i didnt want him running a sheep into a fence. Now maybe the one i got is not as strong as these ones people are talking about that are burning dogs neck, i would not do that to a dog, but the one i got did not hurt.

I would agree they defo should not be used excessively. some of the storys people have refered to about them burning dogs is not on at all

Well I still totally disagree with them but fair play for sticking around and discussing them without getting silly about it. What would you do if you got another dog who showed similar tendencies but the collars were banned?

Master and commander wrote: »

It is crueler to imprison a dog in a run where it must spend most of its time and become bored. The dog got a fright from it first time but has not crossed the line since and appears quite happy.

The ideal would be to use an actual fence, or have you conveniently skimmed over all of the posts regarding dogs escaping through these fences, being injured by the fences, associating the shock with other things and developing fears and being attacked by other dogs who can freely roam into the garden?

Master and commander wrote: »

I used the thing on myself, and i would say it is uncomfortable but not painful.
I have also gotten a good few raps off electric fences - again uncomfortable but not exactly painful like you are suggesting but it only lasts a split second and then its over. Remember they are for large cattle and very powerful. You cannot equate a corrective shock to some kind of KBG type torture. Get a life.

We're not talking about fencing to keep livestock in, we talking about shock collars being used as a corrective tool. Totally different things.

Master and commander wrote: »

Banning them is just another part of the tree huggers and PC brigates agenda. If they had their way, they would ban farmers using electric fences in their fileds. FFS

I once heard someone of them on the radio saying not to buy mouse trap ffs.

Any sort of point your making is just getting lost in ignorant ramblings and sweeping statements tbh. People are managing (for the most part) to discuss this without insulting others.

Master and commander wrote: »

Go get a life, we do much worse things to humans.

Go make a relevant point without showing yourself up.

Your posting in Animal and pet issues So I can't see the relevance of your last point. Maybe something to bring to humanities?

kildare.17hmr

Whispered wrote: »

Well I still totally disagree with them but fair play for sticking around and discussing them without getting silly about it. What would you do if you got another dog who showed similar tendencies but the collars were banned?

I now have someone with an older dog to run my guy with for this coming season so all should be good. this would be the route id go in the future. No better way to learn than experience

wildefalcon

What do you do when your dog is eating his way through a wooden fence to attack the rabbit belonging to the neighbour?

This is the dilemma I face now.

I've tried distracting him with a piece of steak - ignored.

I've walked him for an hour and a half, and then released him into his run, and straight over to the larch fence and biting the timber to break through.

Well, right or wrong, I went out and bought a horse electric fence, powered by a 6 volt battery. I've strung it over the fence panel, and so far he has left the fence alone.

Yes, he got a shock, yes, it was painful. But if he'd attacked the rabbit I'd either have to get him put-down, or I'd have to move.

And buy a new rabbit.

At the moment he is asleep on the sofa, with the door to the run open, and the rabbit is outside next door. All alive, all healthy and all happy.

I accept these things can be abused, but that's a different debate, all things can be abused, doesn't mean we ban carving knives, car batteries, calor gas or other domestic items.

And there is sufficient existing legislation to prosecute people who abuse animals to cover any eventuality.

Whispered

wildefalcon wrote: »

And there is sufficient existing legislation to prosecute people who abuse animals to cover any eventuality.

There really really isn't.

You tried to distract him with a bit of steak, then you tried a half hour walk. Neither worked so you've hooked up a horse fence telling yourself that you've actually made an effort.

wildefalcon

Whispered wrote: »

There really really isn't.

You tried to distract him with a bit of steak, then you tried a half hour walk. Neither worked so you've hooked up a horse fence telling yourself that you've actually made an effort.

What do you recommend? The dog is foaming at the mouth to get at this rabbit, and he is a stubborn sod.

My solution worked. Story, end of. Good enough for horses, good enough for dogs.

PS it was a 1 & 1/2 hour walk, his normal daily walk.

Whispered

If you really want some recommendations I'd be very happy to give them, others would too I'm sure. But I honestly can't tell if you were genuinely asking or being sarcastic. Would you like to hear other suggestions?

Your last line of it working end of really sounds very harsh on your dog tbh. If there are ways to not hurt your dog, who you obviously care very much about, wouldn't you prefer to try them. Rather than saying "oh well it worked, end of story".

The thread was actually about e-collars, not electric fencing. And the fact someone was prosecuted for using an e-collar. I don't think electric fences themselves are illegal. If you do want alternatives to using the fence, or even just suggestions you might like to try while still using the fence, would it be ok for you to start a new thread so that we can stay on topic with the e-collars? You'll get loads of ideas on how to stop the dog going after the neighbours rabbit.

DBB

wildefalcon wrote: »

My solution worked. Story, end of. .

So did Hitler's:eek:
You've completely proven my point, that using painful/uncomfortable/startle/frightening gear to teach a dog is an act of frustration and desperation, which clearly clouds the judgement of the human and prevents them from taking a step back to looking at a bigger picture.
The bigger picture? Sussing out a way of training the dog not to be so pent up by the rabbit. It's called Systematic Desensitisation and Counter Conditioning. But no, that takes a bit of work, a bit of creativity, a bit of patience. No, let's not bother training the dog with patience, let's hurt him. I only hope your electric fence doesn't stop working, or the rabbit is dead.
This business of wanting a quick fix which requires almost zero effort on the owner's part always seems to cost the dog. Your poor dog.
For the record, our existing legislation, in practice, is extremely weak on the animal welfare/cruelty front: things have to have got to a ghastly state before a prosecution is initiated.
And nowhere in our legislation does it say a dog must be PTS for killing a rabbit. It's in the new NI and UK dog control legislation alright, but not ours.

wildefalcon

What does PTS mean?

Anyway, I think that the rabbit was running out of patience, as were the neighbours.

Now, aside from the big words, and fancy letters, what would your suggestion be?

As in real advice, rather than high falutin' science talk? What can I do to stop the dog eating the rabbit? After eating his way out of his run?

I accept you'd prefer to lock the dog up in the kennel all day and night (I do have to sleep, I do have to work) but the solution that I have now in place has resulted in ......wait a minute....

Why am I bothering, you've compared me to a genocidal war criminal, I know that means I will never get through to you.

You stick to your views, I'll stick to mine.

Whispered

wildefalcon wrote: »

What does PTS mean?

Anyway, I think that the rabbit was running out of patience, as were the neighbours.

Now, aside from the big words, and fancy letters, what would your suggestion be?

As in real advice, rather than high falutin' science talk? What can I do to stop the dog eating the rabbit? After eating his way out of his run?

I accept you'd prefer to lock the dog up in the kennel all day and night (I do have to sleep, I do have to work) but the solution that I have now in place has resulted in ......wait a minute....

Why am I bothering, you've compared me to a genocidal war criminal, I know that means I will never get through to you.

You stick to your views, I'll stick to mine.

PTS = Put to sleep

I see you've ignored my post asking if you actually do want other suggestions to have a go at another poster and their "high faultin science talk". At this stage I can't help but think you're either trolling or absolutely not interested in doing right by your dog. I questioned in my first post if prosecution for cruelty would make it more difficult to justify the use of such methods in peoples minds. Obviously in your case you care less about helping your dog and more about taking a lazy easy way out. You are precisely the type of owner these laws are there to protect animals from. Not the likes of Kildare who seems to have used it in a very specific way (not that I agree with it but I do see why it was done). But people like you who are too defensive and set in their "it works so who cares about the effect on the dog" ways to even consider trying anything else.

bigneacy

andreac wrote: »

Wow, poor dog:(

You couldnt have done it in a more humane, less painful way, like building a fence, dog run etc, no?:rolleyes:

A more humane, less painful way?

TWO SHOCKS FROM A COLLAR.

Catch a grip, andreac. The owner was at his wits end. It was probably only a matter of time before the dog done harm to itself. The behaviour was corrected in a time-efficient and safe way. The dog is happy as the owner stated. No lasting effects. Behaviour corrected.

What if it was children the dog was chasing and not sheep? Would it still be inhumane and cruel?

Did you ever even feel one of these dog collar shocks? They are uncomfortable - they get your attention. They are not sore. I've yet to hear any dog yelp or cry in pain from getting a shock.