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18-09-2020, 18:27   #871
NaFirinne
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Originally Posted by Hotblack Desiato View Post
Do you mean the four gospels which contradict each other?



No that's not what I'm talking about at all.


How did the writers of the bible maintain the mathematical consistency throughout the old testament and new testament in terms of the number 7?



If your unfamiliar with what I'm talking about, this is a good start into studying it....but only a start


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hOKA9fR2p4


The bible is a book that deserves proper study if your going to be talking about it.







Now if you want to discuss contradictions in the four gospels...well these are suppose to be eye witness accounts of the Life of Jesus....so being eye witness accounts you would expect to see some inconsistencies....however none of these would take away the truth of the gospel. More over they actually prove that these are actual eye witness accounts of the Life of Jesus.
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18-09-2020, 18:36   #872
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Originally Posted by NaFirinne View Post
No that's not what I'm talking about at all.


How did the writers of the bible maintain the mathematical consistency throughout the old testament and new testament in terms of the number 7?



If your unfamiliar with what I'm talking about, this is a good start into studying it....but only a start


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hOKA9fR2p4


The bible is a book that deserves proper study if your going to be talking about it.







Now if you want to discuss contradictions in the four gospels...well these are suppose to be eye witness accounts of the Life of Jesus....so being eye witness accounts you would expect to see some inconsistencies....however none of these would take away the truth of the gospel. More over they actually prove that these are actual eye witness accounts of the Life of Jesus.
What proves? The fact that there are inconsistencies? Certainly identical testimony would whiff of collusion. But variance a proof of truth??

How are you reckoning it. When they vary it's natural human subjectivity at work. When they harmonize, evidence of objective truth. Surely there are other ways to skin this cat??
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18-09-2020, 18:47   #873
NaFirinne
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What proves? The fact that there are inconsistencies? Certainly identical testimony would whiff of collusion. But variance a proof of truth??

How are you reckoning it. When they vary it's natural human subjectivity at work. When they harmonize, evidence of objective truth. Surely there are other ways to skin this cat??


I'd suggest having a read of



Cold-Case Christianity: A Homicide Detective Investigates the Claims of the Gospels
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18-09-2020, 20:47   #874
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Originally Posted by NaFirinne View Post
I'd suggest having a read of



Cold-Case Christianity: A Homicide Detective Investigates the Claims of the Gospels


I think that my favorite part of the bible is the Old Testament story of Noah. That is a truly inspired tale, especially when you consider it was pilfered word for word from the story of Gilgamesh, written a long time before the bible was brewed in what is now present day Iraq. Like the Bible, it is filled with passionate violence and sex, and it is a direct ascendant of that lovely form of entertainment you mentioned earlier in the name of video games. Is that the inkling you had, too?
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18-09-2020, 21:55   #875
antiskeptic
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Originally Posted by NaFirinne View Post
I'd suggest having a read of



Cold-Case Christianity: A Homicide Detective Investigates the Claims of the Gospels
An early days Christian and I read all that kind of stuff - "who rolled back the stone" etc .. and in so far as it goes it's fine.

But that stuff kinda relies on you being a believer first. Then the tracing out all makes good sense.

Without that a priori belief your average atheist could (and should) shred the 'proof'

No one, I don't think, will be argued or apologeticized into the kingdom of heaven

Last edited by antiskeptic; 18-09-2020 at 22:22.
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18-09-2020, 22:04   #876
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Originally Posted by NaFirinne View Post
No that's not what I'm talking about at all.


How did the writers of the bible maintain the mathematical consistency throughout the old testament and new testament in terms of the number 7?



If your unfamiliar with what I'm talking about, this is a good start into studying it....but only a start


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hOKA9fR2p4


The bible is a book that deserves proper study if your going to be talking about it.







Now if you want to discuss contradictions in the four gospels...well these are suppose to be eye witness accounts of the Life of Jesus....so being eye witness accounts you would expect to see some inconsistencies....however none of these would take away the truth of the gospel. More over they actually prove that these are actual eye witness accounts of the Life of Jesus.
They don't prove anything!!! They ere written 200 and 300 years after he died. Eyewitness my backside, Chinese whispers at best.

My fb profile from Uni proves more with pictures and comments and I can tell you that some of those pics do not describe the whole scenario of some of those nights.
The Diet of Worms selected these 4 as they would suit best for the general consumption by the public. It is now known there is a gospel for each of the 12 apostles.

And here is a shock, Judas was Jesus' best mate not a traitor and asked by Jesus to do that (according to the bible of Judas). Thats an old Discovery Channel documentary fact.

Also, if the repenter will be saved, why not be an athiest and spend your time doing other stuff than mass, just before you die then repent like crazy and you will be accepted into heaven. That will free up weeks and months of your time to do stuff you want to!!!
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19-09-2020, 01:50   #877
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Originally Posted by NaFirinne View Post
How did the writers of the bible maintain the mathematical consistency throughout the old testament and new testament in terms of the number 7?
Who cares.It was written decades later and was written / edited to fulfil an agenda.

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Now if you want to discuss contradictions in the four gospels...well these are suppose to be eye witness accounts of the Life of Jesus....
Eyewitness accounts written by people born after his death

Last edited by Hotblack Desiato; 19-09-2020 at 01:55.
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19-09-2020, 01:52   #878
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I think that my favorite part of the bible is the Old Testament story of Noah.
Yeah, he lived to be 900, crammed every species into a boat constructed of wood from a region where trees were sparse, and rode his daughers. What's not to like!

Last edited by Hotblack Desiato; 19-09-2020 at 01:55.
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19-09-2020, 12:17   #879
NaFirinne
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Originally Posted by PHG View Post
They don't prove anything!!! They ere written 200 and 300 years after he died. Eyewitness my backside, Chinese whispers at best.

My fb profile from Uni proves more with pictures and comments and I can tell you that some of those pics do not describe the whole scenario of some of those nights.
The Diet of Worms selected these 4 as they would suit best for the general consumption by the public. It is now known there is a gospel for each of the 12 apostles.

And here is a shock, Judas was Jesus' best mate not a traitor and asked by Jesus to do that (according to the bible of Judas). Thats an old Discovery Channel documentary fact.

Also, if the repenter will be saved, why not be an athiest and spend your time doing other stuff than mass, just before you die then repent like crazy and you will be accepted into heaven. That will free up weeks and months of your time to do stuff you want to!!!
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Originally Posted by Hotblack Desiato View Post
Who cares.It was written decades later and was written / edited to fulfil an agenda.



Eyewitness accounts written by people born after his death



Do you guys just take these things at face value without researching deeper into these things?


What is your motivation for posting...is it just to discount everything in the most vaguest of researched arguments or are you genuinely after the truth of things?

No one can convince you that God exists....If your convinced in yourself that he doesn't and everything surrounding that is nonsense then stay the way you are.


It doesn't matter how much evidences presented either way - you can't discover GOD through solely intellectual methods.


God is spiritual and only when you soften your hearts and allow yourselves too really seek God out will you find the truth.



This is not easy to do at all and many don't understand what this actually means and it's very difficult to explain it as everyone's path to God is different.


Only you know in your own heart and mind what you need to be able to Know God. Weather that is a direct encounter with him or a journey you have to take to Grow as a person.
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19-09-2020, 12:34   #880
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Originally Posted by NaFirinne View Post
Do you guys just take these things at face value without researching deeper into these things?
Get over yourself. You will find that many users here have been studying and researching the topic of gods and religions for many years in fact. Doing research and not coming to the same conclusions as YOU have, does not mean such research has not been done. To think that way requires a level of hubris and arrogance I would not share with you.

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No one can convince you that God exists....If your convinced in yourself that he doesn't and everything surrounding that is nonsense then stay the way you are.
Yet myself and many other users are not "convinced" there is, or is not a god. The only thing we are convinced of is that no one has shown us THUS FAR any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to suggest such an entity does exist. Simple as that.

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It doesn't matter how much evidences presented either way
Hard to say, until you actually present some. But refusing to present any, and then presuming to tell us that it would not matter anyway, is at best guess work on your behalf and at worst is a complete canard designed to simply straw man us as closed minded individuals for whom no effort is worth investing.

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Originally Posted by NaFirinne View Post
you can't discover GOD through solely intellectual methods.
Says you. Other theists claim however that god can be discovered through reason alone. What makes you right and them wrong?

Now, granted, when such users make that claim around here they are united in their refusal to actually offer the reasoning in question. They merely claim that there is reasoning available to discover god. They just do not seem to want US to know what it is.

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God is spiritual and only when you soften your hearts and allow yourselves too really seek God out will you find the truth.
The problem with that mantra is the exact same mantra is presented by people espousing other equally nonsense and equally unsubstantiated claims. They claim some nonsense.... maybe some conspiracy theory, or something supposed snake oil medicine, or paranormal magic, or whatever..... and then rather than show ANY evidence that their claims are credible they instead suggest the mark needs to be more open hearted or more open minded.

It is a trick as old as humanity itself probably. Claim nonsense then instead of backing up the nonsense, make it about the mark. Charlatan 101 move basically. For shame sir. For. Shame.

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Originally Posted by NaFirinne View Post
everyone's path to God is different.
A bit rich to say that after claiming above you can not get to this god through intellectual methods. In one breath you presume to dictate what a path to god can or can not be. In the next breath you declare that said path is varied and individual.

If you are going to espouse unsubstantiated nonsense.... you might at least try to keep said nonsense INTERNALLY consistent, no?
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19-09-2020, 12:39   #881
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Originally Posted by NaFirinne View Post
Do you guys just take these things at face value without researching deeper into these things?


What is your motivation for posting...is it just to discount everything in the most vaguest of researched arguments or are you genuinely after the truth of things?

No one can convince you that God exists....If your convinced in yourself that he doesn't and everything surrounding that is nonsense then stay the way you are.


It doesn't matter how much evidences presented either way - you can't discover GOD through solely intellectual methods.


God is spiritual and only when you soften your hearts and allow yourselves too really seek God out will you find the truth.



This is not easy to do at all and many don't understand what this actually means and it's very difficult to explain it as everyone's path to God is different.


Only you know in your own heart and mind what you need to be able to Know God. Weather that is a direct encounter with him or a journey you have to take to Grow as a person.

Replace God with astrology or numerology though, and your argument is the same: be open minded and hearted.

The problem with that assertion is that you need to discredit scientific inquiry to bolster your claims of being a "grown person", in spite of the fact you present nothing but magical thought processes to support said claims.
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19-09-2020, 13:46   #882
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Originally Posted by NaFirinne View Post
It may have apparent contradictions, however usually when these are studied in more detail you gain great insights into their meanings any many of these apparent contradictions are gems of knowledge.
Not in the slightest. The bible started off true, but as people learned more and became less credulous, bits of it turned out to be false or ridiculous.

Each bit which turns out to be false or ridiculous then becomes a metaphor.
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20-09-2020, 15:00   #883
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Except for the ludicrously vast amount of the universe that is empty space, you mean. It's like people who talk about the wondrous order of nature aren't aware how much of the universe is completely empty and viciously lethal to anything alive.

We have done this before, haven't we? Discussed the supposed "reason" that can justify the existence of god. I am still waiting for this "reason", if you want to continue from our last post.

Ah, so if no-one else recognises the "reason" in your argument, it's because god hasn't cheated for them and made them believe, it's not because your "reason" is leakier than a sieve. Convenient that, isn't it? It's also something that a lot of people who believe in completely contradictory gods will say, that their god has given them faith. How do I, as an outsider, tell which of you actually has any "reason" without any gift of faith?
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That is circular. The evidence that a god created things the way they are, is the things the way they are? You are using the question itself as evidence for itself.

Adumbrate that reasoning for me/us then. I genuinely hope it is more coherent and less fallacious than the circular reasoning above.
Pretty sure I have given an account of the arguments for the existence of God from causation and from ontology (principle of non-contradiction) earlier in this thread. You cannot keep asking me to reproduce them.

PS I have never found anyone putting a serious dint in Aquinas' Five Ways of Proving God's Existence. Especially not Dawkins, from whom even his atheist pals try to distance themselves.

https://www.thenational.ae/opinion/r...iends-1.594456

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Originally Posted by NaFirinne View Post
Just pondering this idea.... If God created the Universe and the world - then really the Universe is kind of like a virtual world that we human might be able to create in games.

So Looking at the Creation account -

Creation Day 1 (Genesis 1:1-5)
God created the heavens and the earth. “The heavens” refers to everything beyond the earth, outer space. The earth is made but not formed in any specific way, although water is present. God then speaks light into existence. He then separates the light from the dark and names the light “day” and the dark “night.” This creative work occurs from evening until morning – one day.

So God Coded and developed the Universe and the building blocks of planets - ie Earth. So he initializes the game engine.

2. He writes the code for light and integrates it into his new game engine.

3. Then rather then having light every where he codes it into Light sources so we can have both dark and light.

So he managed to code all that in one day. Not bad really.

Now I could go on with the rest of the account of creation, it really strike me that rather then looking at our surroundings from our point of view. If you look at the rest of the account of creation from a Game creator / Programmers point of view it's very close to how an actually game universe or virtual world would actually be developed.

Day 2 - God - Codes up the how the atmosphere works and adds in moisture and water.

Day 3 - God codes up the land, continents and seas - I wonder at this point is he using the unreal engine or the unity engine.

Day 4 - God codes up all the stars and heavenly bodies. And initializes the thread to allow them to run. He also creates the Moon and the sun in relations to the earth. - This can only make sense if this is actually game development here - I mean it is the sequence you would do it in.

Day 5 - God uses something better then Adobe to create all the life in water and insects

Day 6 - God then uses the same software to create all the land creatures. And finally creates Humans as the NPC's to his world.

Day 7 God Rests.

That account does not make sense in terms of science that we know. It can only really make sense to me in terms of developing a virtual world and the only example I have of that is a Computer Game world.

Does the creation account make sense if it was simply the sequence of coding up and developing a game world?

Then if we are the npc's inside that virtual world then looking from within that world we can only really know about how the world runs We would not be able to see past that world.

The world was initially created as a safe paradise in which we could live freely. And God roamed around from time to time to speak with us.

Then we went against god - the problem that God has here is that he has to leave our presence as when you go against God you go against creation and I guess there is some universal law that means if you go against creation and are in the presence of God in his true form you die.

Then he decided to Join the world in First Person Perspective but again we went against him and just had him killed.

I wonder how the game plays out in the end.
The Genesis account is written in the style of a fable and many aspects should not be taken literally. This is not to mean that it does not contain truth, eg. the universe is created, not eternal.

For a good discussion I would recommend R.R Reno's Genesis (Brazos Press 2010) https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=9781587...ks&linkCode=qs.
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20-09-2020, 15:07   #884
Deus Caritas Est
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Not in the slightest. The bible started off true, but as people learned more and became less credulous, bits of it turned out to be false or ridiculous.

Each bit which turns out to be false or ridiculous then becomes a metaphor.

The Bible is perfectly credible and coherent. Much of it has to be approached with the relevant cultural, historical and linguistic context. This is where the discipline of exegesis comes in.



If someone starts reading the Bible by diving headlong into the Old Testament and discovers it does not make sense, then he is not alone. Beginners should not attempt the OT without a good commentary.
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20-09-2020, 16:21   #885
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Originally Posted by Deus Caritas Est View Post
The Bible is perfectly credible and coherent. Much of it has to be approached with the relevant cultural, historical and linguistic context. This is where the discipline of exegesis comes in.



If someone starts reading the Bible by diving headlong into the Old Testament and discovers it does not make sense, then he is not alone. Beginners should not attempt the OT without a good commentary.
I tell you, for a apparently all powerful being he seems to need lots of humans to work out what he meant. Funny that.

It's almost if numerous people made up stuff and badly edited it together. But I'm sure that would never happy.
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