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Kildare farmer objects to €8bn Intel investment...

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    #482
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    I don't think ipsos mrbi do local polls to see who is and isn't hated in a community.



    Why not?
    The people demand a hate figure to blame for everything


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    #483
    ShlugEireann
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 47 ✭ShlugEireann


    The obsession with jobs and economy is not good.

    We are not in 2008 where we are desperate for work. Anyone who wants to work can work.

    I was speaking to a construction company director recently and he was saying the new expansion in Intel is going to be bad for him.

    The director told me they won't be able to find workers to carry out the projects they have lined up.


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    #484
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Boggles wrote: »
    How do you know that?

    I'll give you a clue, you don't so stop stating it as a fact, it's very annoying.

    Legislation was changed on the back of this case to give the IDA more powers to acquire land, if it went to court again under the new laws he would probably lose his farm.

    Nobody knows what will happen in 5,10,15 years time.

    Thomas Reid believes they will come again, and as the only person in this saga that has shown complete honesty and integrity I believe him.

    Unless you have evidence to the contrary?
    You can be honest and have integrity and still be wrong.

    Indeed, no one knows what will happen in 10-15 years time. He won his challenge in the Supreme Court, so it was a point of constitutional law he won on. Now as far as I know, there has been no property rights referendum since he won, so the law hasn't changed. They can't take his land.

    What is more likely is that if this is allowed to drag out, Intel will up sticks and go somewhere else less hassle and who would blame them?


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    #485
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    ShlugEireann wrote: »
    The obsession with jobs and economy is not good.

    We are not in 2008 where we are desperate for work. Anyone who wants to work can work.

    I was speaking to a construction company director recently and he was saying the new expansion in Intel is going to be bad for him.

    The director told me they won't be able to find workers to carry out the projects they have lined up.

    Yeah, people being obsessed having and keeping a job to feed, clothe and house themselves is just terrible.
    The government obsessed with keeping MNCs here so we can pay the wage increases that public servants demand is terrible.

    We'd be all better off if the MNCs left and caused another recession and another crisis. :rolleyes:


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    #486
    ShlugEireann
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 47 ✭ShlugEireann


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    Yeah, people being obsessed having and keeping a job to feed, clothe and house themselves is just terrible.
    The government obsessed with keeping MNCs here so we can pay the wage increases that public servants demand is terrible.

    We'd be all better off if the MNCs left and caused another recession and another crisis. :rolleyes:

    As I said, anyone who wants a job can get one right now.

    Not sure what more jobs brings tbh except increasing wealth inequality.


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    #487
    Cryptopagan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Cryptopagan


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    Yeah, people being obsessed having and keeping a job to feed, clothe and house themselves is just terrible.
    The government obsessed with keeping MNCs here so we can pay the wage increases that public servants demand is terrible.

    We'd be all better off if the MNCs left and caused another recession and another crisis. :rolleyes:

    But right now we are running at close to full employment—there is actually a danger of the economy overheating—and we are short of construction workers, so why get worked up about this one project?


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    #488
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    fryup wrote: »

    surely he's leaving himself open for ridicule in the way he was portrayed as a hermit farmer..

    It is a sad world if there is no space anymore for a bit of eccentricity, if we are all so up ourselves that we are offended to the point that we should ridicule the likes of TR or other "hermit farmers" like him. Besides he is not out to impress anyone mostly since he doesn't need anything from them. Those who know him accept him as he is and all the rest are just strangers whose opinions are irrelevant to him. Who knows, maybe he even shakes his head, in pity, at the way other people live their lives.


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    #489
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,562 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    Indeed, no one knows what will happen in 10-15 years time.

    Great, glad you admit that. At least you can stop peddling "facts" so.
    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    He won his challenge in the Supreme Court, so it was a point of constitutional law he won on. Now as far as I know, there has been no property rights referendum since he won, so the law hasn't changed. They can't take his land

    No he didn't. CPO's are based on the 1986 Industrial Development Act. They didn't fulfill the criteria, 5 Supreme Court Judges agreed.

    Here is the new bill

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2018/1/

    The public didn't get to vote on it.
    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    What is more likely is that if this is allowed to drag out, Intel will up sticks and go somewhere else less hassle and who would blame them?

    I'd blame them, if they didn't try to pull a fast one with the IDA and just left Thomas Reid alone they would have their new plant by now.

    So yeah blame goes solely to Intel and the IDA if that happens.

    TBH I think we bend over enough for Multi Nationals in this country all ready, if that isn't good enough at this stage, good riddance.


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    #490
    threeball
    Registered Users Posts: 7,924 ✭✭✭threeball


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    Yeah, people being obsessed having and keeping a job to feed, clothe and house themselves is just terrible.
    The government obsessed with keeping MNCs here so we can pay the wage increases that public servants demand is terrible.

    We'd be all better off if the MNCs left and caused another recession and another crisis. :rolleyes:

    You obviously work there seen as you're so worked up and adamant that everything most topple to sate the mighty intel and their poor minion workers who won't be able to find a job if their corporate daddy ups and runs.

    Perhaps it would be better to get back to being productive and they might make a few quid.


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    #491
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »
    Surely a question like that is rhetorical? Everyone in the country took cuts!
    Thomas Reid didn't. He still has his 10 million euro farm.


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    #492
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,562 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    marieholmfan wrote: »
    Thomas Reid didn't. He still has his 10 million euro farm.

    Well no, his farm to him is priceless.

    It does not have a monetary value.

    I know in 2019 that is a concept that people can't comprehend, but fúcking hell does it make me smile.


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    #493
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Boggles wrote: »
    Well no, his farm to him is priceless.

    It does not have a monetary value.

    I know in 2019 that is a concept that people can't comprehend, but fúcking hell does it make me smile.
    Smile away but it's an answer to the question that was asked.
    Thomas Reid has got his ten million euro farm.
    Fergal Ward's family have their ten million euro farm.
    The Supreme court have all got their ten million euro (and the rest).

    This documentary is just propaganda for millionaires by millionaires about a millionaire.


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    #494
    jace_da_face
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭jace_da_face


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    Was listening to something on the radio yesterday about how in other countries the good of the nation and people trumps the worry of a few individuals when it comes to things like this.

    Basically most countries just tell the people this is happening and you can do nothing about it.

    It’s for the greater good.

    These numpties are always complaining about something.

    Nimbyisn at its finest and also a huge factor in the housing situation.

    I think you are just talking about China.

    The phrase 'not in my backyard' literally applies here. He is not objecting to some development down the road. He is objecting to his own land been taken. Do you think it is acceptable that Trump attempts to privatize oil-rich Native American reserves? Or that the Brazilian Federal Government bulldoze tribes off rain forest lands?

    Where do we draw the line on private property ownership rights in this country. Do we just bend over for the multinationals and let them bulldoze our citizens?

    For the record, I am set dead against what happened in Athenry with Apple. The community wanted it. No one was driven off their land. Yet objectors, some of who didn't even live in the county, blocked it. Now that is NIMBYism.


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    #495
    Call me Al
    Registered Users Posts: 3,020 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    jace_da_face wrote: »
    I think you are just talking about China.

    The phrase 'not in my backyard' literally applies here. He is not objecting to some development down the road. He is objecting to his own land been taken. Do you think it is acceptable that Trump attempts to privatize oil-rich Native American reserves? Or that the Brazilian Federal Government bulldoze tribes off rain forest lands?

    Where do we draw the line on private property ownership rights in this country. Do we just bend over for the multinationals and let them bulldoze our citizens?

    For the record, I am set dead against what happened in Athenry with Apple. The community wanted it. No one was driven off their land. Yet objectors, some of who didn't even live in the county, blocked it. Now that is NIMBYism.

    Yet again...
    He is currently not objecting to anything on his land.
    He is quite literally currently objecting to something down the road, or more accurately across the road. Kellystown Lane to be exact and I'd estimate about 3/4 km or more from his farmyard.

    The development they have applied for doesn't even touch his property.
    He won his case, and rightly so. But this proposed development does not involve putting one foot or tyre on his property.


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    #496
    jace_da_face
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭jace_da_face


    Call me Al wrote: »
    Yet again...
    He is currently not objecting to anything on his land.
    He is quite literally currently objecting to something down the road, or more accurately across the road. Kellystown Lane to be exact and I'd estimate about 3/4 km or more from his farmyard.

    The development they have applied for doesn't even touch his property.
    He won his case, and rightly so. But this proposed development does not involve putting one foot or tyre on his property.

    Well my comments were relating more to the view that his land ought to be CPO'd. I wasn't really aware that he is lodging planning objections. That is a different matter.


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    #497
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,272 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If being robbed is being offered 10 million for land worth a fraction of that then please rob me.

    The only begrudgers on here are the ones who begrudge Intel workers a job. The likes of him are the biggest begrudgers out there.

    And the policies we are pursuing in this country pumping money into the non productive sector while punishing the hard working small people is leading us into a disaster.

    This Mercosur deal will soften the cough of the likes of him. I could take the attitude too of fcuk the farmers - I don't work in the sector - but I'm not so thick that I can't see it will hurt the country.

    So if planners came to your house and told you that it needed to be demolished to make way for a new bypass or ring road that would ease traffic congestion I'm assuming you would have no problem with it?

    Good of the community and all that, yeah?


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    #498
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 14,544 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    marieholmfan wrote: »
    Thomas Reid didn't. He still has his 10 million euro farm.

    Everyone who chose to stay, work and live in Ireland during the recession took cuts. Most taxpayers saw their income drop 13% during the crisis. No taxpayer was exempt.

    His farm may as well be worth 10 euros as 10 million, it's not for sale so that money will never be realised during his lifetime, so NO he doesn't have 10 million euros.

    I often heard that greed is a blinker to reality but it's the first time I've seen an example of it.


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    #499
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    So if planners came to your house and told you that it needed to be demolished to make way for a new bypass or ring road that would ease traffic congestion I'm assuming you would have no problem with it?

    Good of the community and all that, yeah?

    It would be a nearer comparison to say how would people like to have their dream home and their dream job cpo'ed from them. It's not just his home but his job as well. There is no where else he'd rather be or nothing else he'd rather be doing.

    Regarding the current objections, he is probably paranoid now and completely distrustful of Intel's intensions. Living for years with the stress and worry of losing it all to them tends to do that to a person. They are at least partly responsible for the problem he is to them now.


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    #500
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,863 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Gael23 wrote: »
    I’m actually surprised he hasn’t been lynched out of the area
    Christ almighty, some people really have no idea of what life should be about!


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    #501
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    fryup wrote: »
    surely he's leaving himself open for ridicule in the way he was portrayed as a hermit farmer..not to mention robbery, very vulnerable.
    Boggles wrote: »
    He just spent 6-7 years dealing with an attempted robbery.

    I'd say he will be grand.

    yeah i know, but i'm talking about thugs out there who might see him as an easy target


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    #502
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,562 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    fryup wrote: »
    yeah i know, but i'm talking about thugs out there who might see him as an easy target

    Thugs did see him as an easy target, they were wrong.

    As for criminals entering his property and trying to steal his belongs, that's something all farmers face daily all over the country.

    To me it didn't look like he had much.


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    #503
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,447 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    So if planners came to your house and told you that it needed to be demolished to make way for a new bypass or ring road that would ease traffic congestion I'm assuming you would have no problem with it?

    Good of the community and all that, yeah?

    How would anything anywhere be built then following your logic?


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    #504
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    How would anything anywhere be built then following your logic?


    I think this deserves an answer, even if it isn't posed at me.

    It wasn't for major infrastructure for public use.

    It was to secure the land and a working farm for a foreign multinational.


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    #505
    seasidedub
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭seasidedub


    I watched the documentary-film about this and read about it extensively too.

    He's being portrayed as the "David" to Intel's Golaith. His story is interesting - is love to know more about his upbringing and background as he's definitely a bit "off". Not mentally impaired, just a bit off. He sees this as clear case of the little guy fighting the big multinational corporations and the state who reckon they can force him to sell up by offering huge money and harassing him (in his view).

    But here's the thing: do we in Ireland want the "common good" or not? For example, We say we pay too much for childcare and want scandi style day care which is funded through taxation. Then some people say they don't want to pay for other people's kids, "I minded my own" etc.

    When I lived in Finland I owned a house leading to a forest. Municipality simply announced road would be widened, taking several metres off all our front gardens. End of. No compensation, no legal right to fight as it was for the common good. This is Finland, not China etc. Again, no compensation for this.

    So, what do we want? Common good, or individual rights? It's not an easy call actually. Easy if you have nothing but very different as soon as you have something....


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    #506
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,562 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    STB. wrote: »
    I think this deserves an answer, even if it isn't posed at me.

    It wasn't for major infrastructure for public use.

    It was to secure the land and a working farm for a foreign multinational.

    Just to add. Illegally.


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    #507
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Boggles wrote: »
    Just to add. Illegally.


    For sure. Just to add that the legislation was amended subsequently to allow for this to be done legally.

    Just think about that.

    Some man has a working farm and the IDA can come in and say we are taking it off you regardless to give to a foreign multinatiional for industrial purposes, but don't worry its for the greater good.

    When did private ownership become something the state think they could meddle in.


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    #508
    seasidedub
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭seasidedub


    STB. wrote: »
    Boggles wrote: »
    Just to add. Illegally.


    For sure. Just to add that the legislation was amended subsequently to allow for this to be done legally.

    Just think about that.

    Some man has a working farm and the IDA can come in and say we are taking it off you regardless to give to a foreign multinatiional for industrial purposes, but don't worry its for the greater good.

    When did private ownership become something the state think they could meddle in.

    I agree - but lots of groups are suggesting now that landowners who are supposedly "hoarding" landbanks should be taxed to help or forced to develop due to the housing issue. Private individuals are now being told they can't airbnb a second property (their own property), a big drive to assess how much room a person needs, ie a single person shouldn't be able to live in a 4 bed house. Landlords not entitled to sell a legally owned property without leaving a tenant in situ etc.

    Interference in private rights are being fully suggested now, so we need to decide what we really want.


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    #509
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,562 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    seasidedub wrote: »
    He's being portrayed as the "David" to Intel's Golaith. His story is interesting - is love to know more about his upbringing and background as he's definitely a bit "off". Not mentally impaired, just a bit off.

    Been a "bit off" is open to interruption, isn't it? I mean lets be honest people buried in their smart device 10 hours a day hungry for e-likes is a bit off isn't it? How many examples do you need of society been a "bit off" especially in the last decade or so.

    As for his upbringing, neither remarkable or unique, replicated up and down the country 1000s of times over.

    The son who stayed to work the farm. He has 2 brothers who didn't apparently.
    seasidedub wrote: »
    He sees this as clear case of the little guy fighting the big multinational corporations and the state who reckon they can force him to sell up by offering huge money and harassing him (in his view).

    In his view?

    It was an illegal land grab by a semi state body with "unlimited" legal funds, what would you call it? :confused:
    seasidedub wrote: »
    But here's the thing: do we in Ireland want the "common good" or not? For example, We say we pay too much for childcare and want scandi style day care which is funded through taxation. Then some people say they don't want to pay for other people's kids, "I minded my own" etc.

    Completely separate debate, but to be brief we need kids, even for people who don't have kids, those kids will be the ones paying their pensions when they retire.
    seasidedub wrote: »
    When I lived in Finland I owned a house leading to a forest. Municipality simply announced road would be widened, taking several metres off all our front gardens. End of. No compensation, no legal right to fight as it was for the common good. This is Finland, not China etc. Again, no compensation for this.

    Well that is plainly wrong IMO.
    seasidedub wrote: »
    So, what do we want? Common good, or individual rights? It's not an easy call actually. Easy if you have nothing but very different as soon as you have something....

    Well it's very easy in this case, one was a law abiding citizen the other broke the law.

    The question I think you should be asking is.

    What do we determine as the common good?

    Is illegal land grabs to hand to trillion dollar companies for the greater good of society?

    Companies that once a bar graph hits a certain threshold can up sticks and fúck off somewhere else in a hot minute?


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    #510
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    seasidedub wrote: »
    I agree - but lots of groups are suggesting now that landowners who are supposedly "hoarding" landbanks should be taxed to help or forced to develop due to the housing issue. Private individuals are now being told they can't airbnb a second property (their own property), a big drive to assess how much room a person needs, ie a single person shouldn't be able to live in a 4 bed house. Landlords not entitled to sell a legally owned property without leaving a tenant in situ etc.

    Interference in private rights are being fully suggested now, so we need to decide what we really want.

    Yes, but a lot of that stuff will be shot down, because there will be many who will say, hang on a second, no you wont.

    Funny you should mention housing.

    The IDA are sitting on an unused landbank of 2700 acres that they bought with tax payers money. 64% of their properties lie vacant. These are gambles the IDA took that obviously never materialised.

    They should definitely be the first in the queue to be contacted for handing over to the particular council for housing purposes.

    The IDA would love that wouldn't they.


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    #511
    rn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭rn


    I think both issues should be considered separately. The CPO issue has been dealt with. And IDA lost. However the Intel investment should be fast tracked, while still following proper procedure. There's no reason it can't all be through in 24 weeks, end to end.


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