EU261 compensation discussion

paddy19 · 09-02-2019 4:42am

billy few mates wrote: »

Still better than letting the airline trouser it.
If you've got the time and inclination to put the work into then it's obviously preferable to do it yourself travels a lot for business, he doesn't have the time to go chasing up airlines every time he's delayed,
It might not be for everyone but if it works for someone it's better than nothing.

I'm always amused at the "owe so busy" and wealthy folk who don't have the time or inclination to get this loot.

All it normally takes is a bit of organised chasing up which is what most busy people need to do for work anyway. I doubt that many of them earn the rate per hour that this following up generates.

That's the reason the airlines make it a bit more difficult for the rest of us.

Popeleo · 10-02-2019 8:14pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Looking at it another way, it encourages EU citizens to use EU airlines for long haul.

True.

Anyone know which applies if you book with an EU airline but the flight is operated by a non-EU airline?

grogi · 10-02-2019 9:30pm

Popeleo wrote: »

True.

Anyone know which applies if you book with an EU airline but the flight is operated by a non-EU airline?

Who do you have contract with? Which airline flight do you have?

Popeleo · 11-02-2019 1:59pm

grogi wrote: »

Who do you have contract with? Which airline flight do you have?

Just a theoretical question for future flights - I'm not looking to make a claim now.

But say I booked a flight say with KLM on their website and one or more of the flights are "operated by Non-EU Airline Ltd.":-
In the case of a delayed return to the EU, would a claim for a delay be against KLM?
Or can they hide behind the operating airline, who won't have to pay under EU261?

paddy19 · 11-02-2019 8:48pm

See #92 for details on Non_EU Airline liability.

When KLM are highlighting ""operated by Non-EU Airline Ltd." they are clearly signalling that they are trying to limit liability.

The preamble to EU261 states that the obligations created by the regulation “should rest with the operating air carrier who performs or intends to perform a flight, whether with owned aircraft, under dry or wet lease, or on any other basis.”

The regulation defines an “operating air carrier” as “… an air carrier that performs or intends to perform a flight under a contract with a passenger or on behalf of another person, legal or natural, having a contract with that passenger.”

In your case KLM would the legal person under which the operating airline would provide the flight.

So I think you could be sure that KLM would "hide behind the operating airline, who won't have to pay under EU261".

rivegauche · 13-02-2019 12:18pm

UK ruling regarding Eu261 and claims chasers:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ruling-backs-ryanair-claims-system-kd0p2sxk3

It makes it much more difficult for claims chasers to take their commission as the claim must be submitted in the name of the passenger and then they have to get passenger to pay them their share.

grogi · 13-02-2019 12:21pm

paddy19 wrote: »

See #92 for details on Non_EU Airline liability.

When KLM are highlighting ""operated by Non-EU Airline Ltd." they are clearly signalling that they are trying to limit liability.

The preamble to EU261 states that the obligations created by the regulation “should rest with the operating air carrier who performs or intends to perform a flight, whether with owned aircraft, under dry or wet lease, or on any other basis.”

The regulation defines an “operating air carrier” as “… an air carrier that performs or intends to perform a flight under a contract with a passenger or on behalf of another person, legal or natural, having a contract with that passenger.”

In your case KLM would the legal person under which the operating airline would provide the flight.

So I think you could be sure that KLM would "hide behind the operating airline, who won't have to pay under EU261".

KLM tries to hide. But they still are the ones that have the contract with the passenger. The passenger is not concerned who KLM contracted to actually perform the flight operation. If one has a KL flight number - it is a KLM flight and EU261 applies.

Credit Checker Moose · 13-02-2019 12:34pm

Has there been any EU rulings on this aspect?

paddy19 · 13-02-2019 6:54pm

Yes, as with all things legal, it get more complex.

So it depends on who bears operational responsibility for the flight.
An operating air carrier is therefore the carrier which decides to perform a particular flight, fixes its itinerary and concludes contracts of air carriage with passengers, either himself or on behalf of another company.

On 4 July 2018, the Court of Justice of the European Union (the "CJEU") delivered a preliminary ruling under Article 267 TFEU in the case of Wolfgang Wirth and others v Thomson Airways Ltd 1.

This case was unusual, it was a charter company controlled everything and all the wet lease airline did was provide the crew and fly the plane.

But it does provide clarity on who the operating air carrier is.

26 In the light of all of the foregoing considerations, the answer to the question referred is that the concept of an ‘operating air carrier’ within the meaning of Regulation No 261/2004 and, in particular, of Article 2(b) thereof must be interpreted as not covering the case of an air carrier, such as that at issue in the main proceedings, which leases to another air carrier an aircraft, including crew, under a wet lease, but does not bear the operational responsibility for the flights, even where the booking confirmation of a seat on a flight issued to passengers states that that flight is operated by the former air carrier.

I'm pretty sure KLM are not wet leasing aircraft and taking operational responsibility for code share flights.

KLM are not liable unless they are controlling all aspects of the flight.

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf;jsessionid=8837A44BA9B2E44E36621CC588B1285A?text=&docid=203541&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=lst&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=11889255

billy few mates · 13-02-2019 8:49pm

They can delegate the task but not the responsibility.

Browney7 · 25-03-2019 11:44pm

L1011 wrote: »

Affects to earlier flights do not count. They can sub in or hire in aircraft to avoid the delay if they really want to

Do you have a reference for any case decided at EU level that specifies knock on effects from a flight earlier in the day are not grounds for exceptional circumstances?

site_owner · 30-03-2019 11:04pm

Asking for some advice here.
Booked entire trip with BA, DUB-LHR-DFW,-AUSl
All legs BAxxx flight numbers etc

Got to DFW about 2130, boarding for final leg at 2300 ish
Final leg operated by AA

According to annoucements our flight crew were reassigned to another flight whose crew were unavailable. Flight was then delayed until crew available. next update, plane had been given to another route. Next update, we had a plane and a crew but due to hail we needed an inspection. No inspection crew available.
They held out until 2.30 but I think then ATC in AUS was closed so flight was cancelled.
I got rebooked on a flight 11am next day.

First thing, BA are refusing to deal with me, telling me I have to claim compensation from AA. Is that correct?

Second, I think all the schedule issues and swapping crews and planes followed a much earlier hail storm, so would I even be entitled to anything if they say it was weather?

Thanks for reading, I hope it's coherent...

paddy19 · 31-03-2019 3:29am

I got rebooked on a flight 11am next day.

First thing, BA are refusing to deal with me, telling me I have to claim compensation from AA. Is that correct?

Second, I think all the schedule issues and swapping crews and planes followed a much earlier hail storm, so would I even be entitled to anything if they say it was weather?

Thanks for reading, I hope it's coherent...[/quote]

The prospects for compensation under 261 are not good.

As you can see from the earlier thread the critical factor is who is in control of the flight, who decides the flight schedule etc. It looks like BA are correct and your claim would be with AA.

Given it's a non EU operator and the flight is outside the EU261 does not seem to apply.

site_owner · 31-03-2019 10:51am

Thanks, that's pretty terrible to find out after the fact.
Had always assumed I had pretty good rights flying transatlantic with a European company.

Will follow thru with AA and will be more judicious in my bookings going forward.

Hotblack Desiato · 31-03-2019 8:19pm

You entered into a contract with BA to get you to your ultimate destination.

Whoever they chose to outsource part of that contract to, is their problem.

site_owner · 31-03-2019 8:49pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You entered into a contract with BA to get you to your ultimate destination.

Whoever they chose to outsource part of that contract to, is their problem.

That's what I would have thought too, but doesn't seem to be the case

paddy19 · 01-04-2019 3:26am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You entered into a contract with BA to get you to your ultimate destination.

Whoever they chose to outsource part of that contract to, is their problem.

Did you bother to look at the BA contract before holding forth with such certainty? Best you get is a refund if they don't deliver you to your destination.

https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/legal/british-airways/general-conditions-of-carriage

Section 9..

This whole thread is about your rights under EU 261.
This has nothing to do with contract law.

site_owner · 01-04-2019 10:32am

I was put on another flight so I can't get a fare refund per the T&C's

Or is there another section I should look at?

billy few mates · 01-04-2019 1:32pm

site_owner wrote: »

I was put on another flight so I can't get a fare refund per the T&C's

Or is there another section I should look at?

You could try one of those companies that will chase it up for you?

paddy19 · 02-04-2019 12:28pm

billy few mates wrote: »

You could try one of those companies that will chase it up for you?

Unlikely to get refund, non EU carrier and flight outside EU. No harm in double checking with one of the chasers. Fees are substantial.

billy few mates · 02-04-2019 7:44pm

paddy19 wrote: »

Unlikely to get refund, non EU carrier and flight outside EU. No harm in double checking with one of the chasers. Fees are substantial.

If you don't have the time to put the effort into chasing up a claim you might as well engage one of these companies to do it for you.
Even if they took 100% of the compensation it would be better than the airline pocketing it by giving you the runaround. A lot of these airlines bank on the fact that most people won't go to the trouble of following up on a denied claim, I'd sooner the money went to charity than into their coffers.

paddy19 · 15-04-2019 3:10pm

Anyone any experience with compensation for downgrade of seat.

Bought €35 seats in two seat configuration, was plonked into a 3 seat configuration cheaper seat, no apology, no alternative, no compensation.

The Eu regulation talks about downgrade of class but not seat.

Given that Airlines are not charging up to €100 for a seat, class seems a bit out date.

Credit Checker Moose · 15-04-2019 3:19pm

It is not a EU 261 matter.

They have themselves covered where they can change seat assignments without compensation.

paddy19 · 16-04-2019 4:03am

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

It is not a EU 261 matter.

They have themselves covered where they can change seat assignments without compensation.

Why is not an EU261 matter?

The whole basis for EU261 is that it overrides the "we can do whatever we like" clauses in the airline contracts.

EU261 was implemented because Airlines messed consumers around with the impunity of contract clauses.

L1011 · 16-04-2019 6:05am

paddy19 wrote: »

Why is not an EU261 matter?

Because as you've already found out, seat location is not a covered factor.

LoonyLovegood · 16-04-2019 7:53am

If you email them there's a decent chance they'll refund if you paid specifically. I tweeted Aer Lingus after a flight home where the plane was changed last minute, so the exit row seats we'd paid for were a different row from us. Got the money back in my account a week later.

paddy19 · 17-04-2019 12:36pm

L1011 wrote: »

Because as you've already found out, seat location is not a covered factor.

I haven't already found out anything yet.
The airline claimed it was due to a last minute change which I doubt based on flight aware data.

What's the basis for saying it's not a covered factor?

L1011 · 17-04-2019 12:39pm

paddy19 wrote: »

I haven't already found out anything yet.
The airline claimed it was due to a last minute change which I doubt based on flight aware data.

What's the basis for saying it's not a covered factor?

Because its not in the list of those that are.

This is quite simple. You should be able to ask for a refund of the extra fee but you are not getting compensation.

paddy19 · 17-04-2019 3:25pm

"Because its not in the list of those that are."

What list?

Can you give us a web reference?

AnRothar · 17-04-2019 4:12pm

paddy19 wrote: »

"Because its not in the list of those that are."

What list?

Can you give us a web reference?

Try search for EU regulation 261 of 2004.

This Regulation establishes, under the conditions specified
herein, minimum rights for passengers when:
(a) they are denied boarding against their will;
(b) their flight is cancelled;
(c) their flight is delayed.

Anyone any experience with compensation for downgrade of seat

Your seat was changed.

paddy19 · 17-04-2019 6:38pm

"Try search for EU regulation 261 of 2004."

Nobody likes a smart ass, AnRothar, and particularly an ill informed smart ass.

Eu261 Article 10

Upgrading and downgrading

2.If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shall within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3),reimburse

The Irish Citizen Information site refers to:
"Upgrading and downgrading seats"

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/air_travel/compensation_for_overbooked_and_delayed_flights.html

L1011 referred to a list. So I asked for a web reference?

Given that Etihad are charging €99 for a bulk head seat it is reasonable to question what "Class" means in the legal EU261 sense.

Is there any history or case law on this issue?

L1011 · 17-04-2019 7:26pm

Citizens Information is a simplified interpretation. The regulations, which you had made it clear you found in your first post, specify class only.

You are not entitled to compensation. There's no history or case law as its clear cut.

Ask for the seat reservation fee back.

paddy19 · 17-04-2019 7:37pm

"There's no history or case law as its clear cut."

You are clearly not a lawyer L1011!

The law is never clear until a court interprets the regulation.
When a case is heard then we know what the wording actually means.

The law is full of cases where legislators thought it was clear until the court
found otherwise.

Credit Checker Moose · 17-04-2019 7:40pm

You can be the first.

L1011 · 17-04-2019 7:58pm

paddy19 wrote: »

"There's no history or case law as its clear cut."

You are clearly not a lawyer L1011!

The law is never clear until a court interprets the regulation.
When a case is heard then we know what the wording actually means.

The law is full of cases where legislators thought it was clear until the court
found otherwise.

Try find a lawyer to take a case based on there being absolutely no mention of what you want in the regulations.

Indeed, go find a lawyer. Stop posting here

This is not Legal Discussions and your posting is now wildly off topic.

L1011 · 17-04-2019 9:20pm

Seriously - stop posting. That was a mod instruction

You do not qualify for 261 compensation and hence are entirely off topic.

Post again and you'll get carded

geecee · 25-04-2019 12:35pm

Hi All
I flew on finnair BKK-HEL-DUB on April 23rd

The BKK flight was late boarding and then the pilot said we were no. 30 in the take off queue as the airport was very busy. We took off 1 hour late and had to fly a slightly longer route due to Pakistan airspace closure. Subsequently we arrived into HEL 1 hour late and my connecting flight had already departed.

Finnair booked me on to the next available flight (next day) and put me up in a hotel for the night
In the end arrival home at 09.30 on 24/04 instead of 17.30 on 23/04
So overall delay was 16 hours

Any thoughts on whether this case would be EC 261 eligible?
Thanks In Advance!

paddy19 · 26-04-2019 9:02am

"Subsequently we arrived into HEL 1 hour late and my connecting flight had already departed."

As you've probably guessed, this doesn't look like a runner under EU261.

You need a minimum of a 3 hour delay for compensation.

geecee · 26-04-2019 10:25am

paddy19 wrote: »

You need a minimum of a 3 hour delay for compensation.

But my overall delay was 16 hours due to the missed connection, both flights were on the same PNR

paddy19 · 26-04-2019 11:20am

OK fair point.

Min Connection time at HEL seems to be 35 minutes so your ok there.

First question, was your flight from BKK to Hel with an EU airline?

The "Pakistan airspace closure" is going to make compensation very difficult.

Credit Checker Moose · 26-04-2019 12:39pm

The whole Pakistani airspace thingy is a red herring.

Lets look at the ideal route:
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=bkk-hel

The perfect route does not cross Pakistani airspace.

Here is the actual route the flight took on Apr 23.

They have been taking a more northerly route over Mongolia for the last week or so.

This is on Finnair, no one else.

paddy19 · 26-04-2019 1:23pm

Feckin hell that is a long way from Pakistan!

expatin africa · 28-04-2019 6:56am

Hi just wondering if anyone can help me this. Was travelling from Lego's nigeria to cork Ireland on the night of the 26/04/2019, boarded and took the flight to Amsterdam but when went to the gate in schipol for the Saturday morning flight to cork they said i was now on standby and would have to stay in Amsterdam and not get a flight till Sunday night,
There was a canceled flight to Cork Friday night and they put some of those passagers on our flight and we had to stay. This happened me and my wife and about 6 other people, we were all on klm transit flights with some from coming from austrailia
The flight was with klm with aer lingus doing the cork run.
We got a hotel. For free and they say we will get 250e.
Just wondering if thats all i am entitled to

JCX BXC · 28-04-2019 11:29am

You shouldn't be getting €250, you're only entitled to Hotels, food, transport and communication, not compensation, as the Aer Lingus flight was cancelled due to weather conditions (Storm Hannah)

paddy19 · 28-04-2019 12:34pm

It seems unlikely that the airline is offering €1,500 (€250 x 6) to passengers who are not entitled to it.

In my experience most airlines are reluctant to produce the loot even when you are definitely entitled to it.

expatin africa · 28-04-2019 5:48pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

You shouldn't be getting €250, you're only entitled to Hotels, food, transport and communication, not compensation, as the Aer Lingus flight was cancelled due to weather conditions (Storm Hannah)

But my flight wasn't canceled my flight went ahead on the Saturday morning. They but some of the people from the cancled Friday night flight on it and put us on standby

expatin africa · 28-04-2019 5:53pm

paddy19 wrote: »

It seems unlikely that the airline is offering €1,500 (€250 x 6) to passengers who are not entitled to it.

In my experience most airlines are reluctant to produce the loot even when you are definitely entitled to it.

Sorry but dont understand why we were not entitled to it. Had a ticket booked 3 months ago from lagos to cork through Amsterdam checked in fine Friday night and took the first flight fine, then Saturday morning in Amsterdam our flight to cork took off, but our seats were giving to the people who's flights were canceled on Friday night and they said we were on standby for flight we had our boarding pass for through klm in lagos

Credit Checker Moose · 28-04-2019 6:04pm

If that is the case you are owed the full amount.

JCX BXC · 28-04-2019 6:06pm

I'm getting very confused by what you're saying, however what I do know is that the Friday flight from Amsterdam to Cork was cancelled due to Storm Hannah, hence no compensation is owed.

Credit Checker Moose · 28-04-2019 6:09pm

But the person was not on that flight. Their flight was on Saturday which operated without them.

Their flight Saturday morning from AMS operated but they were bumped in favour of delayed pax from the night before.

EU261 compensation discussion

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