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EU261 compensation discussion

finbarrk

I made a claim to them for compensation for a cancelled flight from Stansted to Shannon on 30 March. They say they don't have to pay it because the cancelation wasn't their fault as it was due to a fire at the Airport.
Anyone know if this is the case with these compensation claims?
They did refund the cost of the flight alright. But I had to spend a good bit on another flight the next day with Aer Lingus from Heathrow, as all Ryanair flights were full.

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Popeleo

paddy19 wrote: »

[HTML]
Travel itinerary EU carrier Non-EU carrier

From: EU to EU Covered Covered
From: EU to non-EU Covered Covered
From: out of EU to EU Covered Not covered
From: out of EU to non-EU Not covered Not covered
[/HTML]

Thank you Paddy. You confirmed my suspicions.

That is the way I read it first. But that means that the EU regulations penalise EU airlines on long-haul routes. Strange.

Hotblack Desiato

Looking at it another way, it encourages EU citizens to use EU airlines for long haul.

joe316

Hey folks,

Looking for help (and it might be pointless at this stage) awaiting a refund under 261 from Wow which they agreed to and confirmed that they would be paying nearly 6 months ago.

For my own sanity I can’t phone them again to get the same robotic response.

Nothing paid yet. What is my next option? If any, especially if they are going to the wall soon.

Thanks!

LorelaiG

joe316 wrote: »

Hey folks,

Looking for help (and it might be pointless at this stage) awaiting a refund under 261 from Wow which they agreed to and confirmed that they would be paying nearly 6 months ago.

For my own sanity I can’t phone them again to get the same robotic response.

Nothing paid yet. What is my next option? If any, especially if they are going to the wall soon.

Thanks!

Call them one last time if no joy contact CAR

Browney7

Browney7 wrote: »

Was flying back to Ireland from Europe the night of storm Ali (the storm had passed several hours previously but the backlog caused widespread delays). Flight arrived 3.5 hours late into Dublin. Ryanair declined EU261 citing exceptional circumstances.

Read on the UK CAA site that weather effecting earlier flights isn't exceptional. Is it worth an appeal and to whom do I appeal if so?

So Ryanair refused the claim so I referred the claim to the AESA in Spain who determined Ryanair should have paid the €250. I've followed up with Ryanair again and they still aren't playing ball. Is small claims court the only open avenue left?

billy few mates

Browney7 wrote: »

So Ryanair refused the claim so I referred the claim to the AESA in Spain who determined Ryanair should have paid the €250. I've followed up with Ryanair again and they still aren't playing ball. Is small claims court the only open avenue left?

The next step is the CAR (commission for aviation regulation) or better still the UK CAA, then the small claims court if necessary.

billy few mates

Another option you have is a company called Air Help
Airhelp.com who will do the chasing for you (if you can't be bothered or haven't the time) for a commission.
I haven't used them myself but a colleague of mine has used them twice in the past and was successful both times.
It's very simple, there's even an app for your phone where you answer a few small questions and they do all the chasing for you...

Browney7

billy few mates wrote: »

The next step is the CAR (commission for aviation regulation) or better still the UK CAA, then the small claims court if necessary.

As the flight started in Spain I thought I had to go through the Spanish equivalent and thought it would have more teeth than the CAR.

I'll look into the CAA

paddy19

billy few mates wrote: »

Another option you have is a company called Air Help
Airhelp.com who will do the chasing for you (if you can't be bothered or haven't the time) for a commission..

Very hefty commission, 25% for an airline claim and 50% for a court claim.

billy few mates

paddy19 wrote: »

Very hefty commission, 25% for an airline claim and 50% for a court claim.

Still better than letting the airline trouser it.
If you've got the time and inclination to put the work into then it's obviously preferable to do it yourself but it definitely appears that some airlines will give you the runaround in the hope that you won't (a) know your rights and (b) won't bother going to the time and effort of chasing them up so it theory often first course of action is to refuse it and see what happens.
I'd prefer a system where you could make your claim directly to the CAR and they paid you and claimed it directly from the airline but that's not going to happen so this is another option.
If you download the app you'll see how simple they've made the process.
My colleague who's used it travels a lot for business, he doesn't have the time to go chasing up airlines every time he's delayed, he told me he used it twice and received a cheque for a couple of hundred quid for very little effort on tickets he didn't actually pay for himself.
It might not be for everyone but if it works for someone it's better than nothing.

paddy19

billy few mates wrote: »

Still better than letting the airline trouser it.
If you've got the time and inclination to put the work into then it's obviously preferable to do it yourself travels a lot for business, he doesn't have the time to go chasing up airlines every time he's delayed,
It might not be for everyone but if it works for someone it's better than nothing.

I'm always amused at the "owe so busy" and wealthy folk who don't have the time or inclination to get this loot.

All it normally takes is a bit of organised chasing up which is what most busy people need to do for work anyway. I doubt that many of them earn the rate per hour that this following up generates.

That's the reason the airlines make it a bit more difficult for the rest of us.

Popeleo

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Looking at it another way, it encourages EU citizens to use EU airlines for long haul.

True.

Anyone know which applies if you book with an EU airline but the flight is operated by a non-EU airline?

grogi

Popeleo wrote: »

True.

Anyone know which applies if you book with an EU airline but the flight is operated by a non-EU airline?

Who do you have contract with? Which airline flight do you have?

Popeleo

grogi wrote: »

Who do you have contract with? Which airline flight do you have?

Just a theoretical question for future flights - I'm not looking to make a claim now.

But say I booked a flight say with KLM on their website and one or more of the flights are "operated by Non-EU Airline Ltd.":-
In the case of a delayed return to the EU, would a claim for a delay be against KLM?
Or can they hide behind the operating airline, who won't have to pay under EU261?

paddy19

See #92 for details on Non_EU Airline liability.

When KLM are highlighting ""operated by Non-EU Airline Ltd." they are clearly signalling that they are trying to limit liability.

The preamble to EU261 states that the obligations created by the regulation “should rest with the operating air carrier who performs or intends to perform a flight, whether with owned aircraft, under dry or wet lease, or on any other basis.”

The regulation defines an “operating air carrier” as “… an air carrier that performs or intends to perform a flight under a contract with a passenger or on behalf of another person, legal or natural, having a contract with that passenger.”

In your case KLM would the legal person under which the operating airline would provide the flight.

So I think you could be sure that KLM would "hide behind the operating airline, who won't have to pay under EU261".

rivegauche

UK ruling regarding Eu261 and claims chasers:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ruling-backs-ryanair-claims-system-kd0p2sxk3

It makes it much more difficult for claims chasers to take their commission as the claim must be submitted in the name of the passenger and then they have to get passenger to pay them their share.

grogi

paddy19 wrote: »

See #92 for details on Non_EU Airline liability.

When KLM are highlighting ""operated by Non-EU Airline Ltd." they are clearly signalling that they are trying to limit liability.

The preamble to EU261 states that the obligations created by the regulation “should rest with the operating air carrier who performs or intends to perform a flight, whether with owned aircraft, under dry or wet lease, or on any other basis.”

The regulation defines an “operating air carrier” as “… an air carrier that performs or intends to perform a flight under a contract with a passenger or on behalf of another person, legal or natural, having a contract with that passenger.”

In your case KLM would the legal person under which the operating airline would provide the flight.

So I think you could be sure that KLM would "hide behind the operating airline, who won't have to pay under EU261".

KLM tries to hide. But they still are the ones that have the contract with the passenger. The passenger is not concerned who KLM contracted to actually perform the flight operation. If one has a KL flight number - it is a KLM flight and EU261 applies.

Credit Checker Moose

Has there been any EU rulings on this aspect?

paddy19

Yes, as with all things legal, it get more complex.

So it depends on who bears operational responsibility for the flight.
An operating air carrier is therefore the carrier which decides to perform a particular flight, fixes its itinerary and concludes contracts of air carriage with passengers, either himself or on behalf of another company.

On 4 July 2018, the Court of Justice of the European Union (the "CJEU") delivered a preliminary ruling under Article 267 TFEU in the case of Wolfgang Wirth and others v Thomson Airways Ltd 1.

This case was unusual, it was a charter company controlled everything and all the wet lease airline did was provide the crew and fly the plane.

But it does provide clarity on who the operating air carrier is.

26 In the light of all of the foregoing considerations, the answer to the question referred is that the concept of an ‘operating air carrier’ within the meaning of Regulation No 261/2004 and, in particular, of Article 2(b) thereof must be interpreted as not covering the case of an air carrier, such as that at issue in the main proceedings, which leases to another air carrier an aircraft, including crew, under a wet lease, but does not bear the operational responsibility for the flights, even where the booking confirmation of a seat on a flight issued to passengers states that that flight is operated by the former air carrier.

I'm pretty sure KLM are not wet leasing aircraft and taking operational responsibility for code share flights.

KLM are not liable unless they are controlling all aspects of the flight.

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf;jsessionid=8837A44BA9B2E44E36621CC588B1285A?text=&docid=203541&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=lst&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=11889255

billy few mates

They can delegate the task but not the responsibility.

Browney7

L1011 wrote: »

Affects to earlier flights do not count. They can sub in or hire in aircraft to avoid the delay if they really want to

Do you have a reference for any case decided at EU level that specifies knock on effects from a flight earlier in the day are not grounds for exceptional circumstances?

site_owner

Asking for some advice here.
Booked entire trip with BA, DUB-LHR-DFW,-AUSl
All legs BAxxx flight numbers etc

Got to DFW about 2130, boarding for final leg at 2300 ish
Final leg operated by AA

According to annoucements our flight crew were reassigned to another flight whose crew were unavailable. Flight was then delayed until crew available. next update, plane had been given to another route. Next update, we had a plane and a crew but due to hail we needed an inspection. No inspection crew available.
They held out until 2.30 but I think then ATC in AUS was closed so flight was cancelled.
I got rebooked on a flight 11am next day.

First thing, BA are refusing to deal with me, telling me I have to claim compensation from AA. Is that correct?

Second, I think all the schedule issues and swapping crews and planes followed a much earlier hail storm, so would I even be entitled to anything if they say it was weather?

Thanks for reading, I hope it's coherent...

paddy19

I got rebooked on a flight 11am next day.

First thing, BA are refusing to deal with me, telling me I have to claim compensation from AA. Is that correct?

Second, I think all the schedule issues and swapping crews and planes followed a much earlier hail storm, so would I even be entitled to anything if they say it was weather?

Thanks for reading, I hope it's coherent...[/quote]

The prospects for compensation under 261 are not good.

As you can see from the earlier thread the critical factor is who is in control of the flight, who decides the flight schedule etc. It looks like BA are correct and your claim would be with AA.

Given it's a non EU operator and the flight is outside the EU261 does not seem to apply.

site_owner

Thanks, that's pretty terrible to find out after the fact.
Had always assumed I had pretty good rights flying transatlantic with a European company.

Will follow thru with AA and will be more judicious in my bookings going forward.

Hotblack Desiato

You entered into a contract with BA to get you to your ultimate destination.

Whoever they chose to outsource part of that contract to, is their problem.

site_owner

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You entered into a contract with BA to get you to your ultimate destination.

Whoever they chose to outsource part of that contract to, is their problem.

That's what I would have thought too, but doesn't seem to be the case

paddy19

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You entered into a contract with BA to get you to your ultimate destination.

Whoever they chose to outsource part of that contract to, is their problem.

Did you bother to look at the BA contract before holding forth with such certainty? Best you get is a refund if they don't deliver you to your destination.

https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/legal/british-airways/general-conditions-of-carriage

Section 9..

This whole thread is about your rights under EU 261.
This has nothing to do with contract law.

site_owner

I was put on another flight so I can't get a fare refund per the T&C's

Or is there another section I should look at?

billy few mates

site_owner wrote: »

I was put on another flight so I can't get a fare refund per the T&C's

Or is there another section I should look at?

You could try one of those companies that will chase it up for you?

paddy19

billy few mates wrote: »

You could try one of those companies that will chase it up for you?

Unlikely to get refund, non EU carrier and flight outside EU. No harm in double checking with one of the chasers. Fees are substantial.