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What does true equality of opportunity look like?

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    #92
    engiweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭engiweirdo


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Because in spite of the existence of legislation to prohibit it, it still goes on and is prevalent in all employment sectors, practiced by numerous employers, and cases of gender discrimination are regularly considered by the WRC. There are only nine grounds in law under which a case regarding discrimination or treating one person less favourable than another -


    - Gender: this means man, woman or transsexual
    - Civil status: includes single, married, separated, divorced, widowed people, civil partners and former civil partners
    - Family status: this refers to the parent of a person under 18 years or the resident primary carer or parent of a person with a disability
    - Sexual orientation: includes gay, lesbian, bisexual and heterosexual
    - Religion: means religious belief, background, outlook or none
    - Age: this does not apply to a person aged under 16
    - Disability: includes people with physical, intellectual, learning, cognitive or emotional disabilities and a range of medical conditions
    - Race: includes race, skin colour, nationality or ethnic origin
    - Membership of the Traveller community.


    Discriminating against a person or treating them less favourably than another on the basis of their address, is not one of those grounds, let alone complaining about cases in the UK in relation to policies in Ireland.

    So class discrimination is not important then if there is no legislation prohibiting it. Carry on old chap.


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    #93
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    engiweirdo wrote: »
    So class discrimination is not important then if there is no legislation prohibiting it. Carry on old chap.


    Come back here Cathy Newman :pac:

    Where did I suggest addressing class discrimination wasn’t important?


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    #94
    Victor Meldrew
    Registered Users Posts: 768 ✭✭✭Victor Meldrew


    We got a memo in from Neighbourhood Watch stating that there were two middle aged women breaking into cars in our estate. And a few weeks back there was another auld dear casing houses.

    Gender equality and age equality is not always welcome...


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    #95
    engiweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭engiweirdo


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Come back here Cathy Newman :pac:

    Where did I suggest addressing class discrimination wasn’t important?

    Just that the other isms are far more important. If you wish to build a career in the "equality" industry at least..


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    #96
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    engiweirdo wrote: »
    Just that the other isms are far more important. If you wish to build a career in the "equality" industry at least..


    I couldn’t care less about one ism or another, I’m unashamedly sexist and as far from a feminist as is possible. However, that being said, I do place more importance on discrimination that is recognised in Irish law as opposed to discrimination that isn’t.


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    #97
    BrokenArrows
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭BrokenArrows


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    It's simple.

    If two people, one man and one woman, work in the same job for the same amount of time, with the same education and experience and perform to the same level then they should receive equal pay and opportunity to take on new tasks, promotions and so on.

    It's not that simple.

    Say the woman never asked for a pay rise in her whole time working there and the man hounded management every year. There will be a pay difference.


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    #98
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Because in spite of the existence of legislation to prohibit it, it still goes on and is prevalent in all employment sectors, practiced by numerous employers, and cases of gender discrimination are regularly considered by the WRC. There are only nine grounds in law under which a case regarding discrimination or treating one person less favourable than another -


    - Gender: this means man, woman or transsexual
    - Civil status: includes single, married, separated, divorced, widowed people, civil partners and former civil partners
    - Family status: this refers to the parent of a person under 18 years or the resident primary carer or parent of a person with a disability
    - Sexual orientation: includes gay, lesbian, bisexual and heterosexual
    - Religion: means religious belief, background, outlook or none
    - Age: this does not apply to a person aged under 16
    - Disability: includes people with physical, intellectual, learning, cognitive or emotional disabilities and a range of medical conditions
    - Race: includes race, skin colour, nationality or ethnic origin
    - Membership of the Traveller community.


    Discriminating against a person or treating them less favourably than another on the basis of their address, is not one of those grounds, let alone complaining about cases in the UK in relation to policies in Ireland.

    OEJ you're listing laws. We're in agreement that there is no law. The point is that class discrimination isn't legislated against and therefore a bigger problem now. Address is a very small part of that problem. School and socio-economic class is the problem.


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    #99
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    OEJ you're listing laws. We're in agreement that there is no law. The point is that class discrimination isn't legislated against and therefore a bigger problem now. Address is a very small part of that problem. School and socio-economic class is the problem.


    If we were to get real about what true equality should look like, then there would be no need for anti-discrimination or equality legislation at all. A persons socioeconomic circumstances are far more dictated by their sex than by their class.

    We could argue all day over what class a person belongs to and what assistance should they be entitled to based upon what class they fit into, to give them equal opportunities as someone in another class who has those opportunities by virtue of their parents socioeconomic status.

    What is inarguable however, is that no matter what class women are in, they will never have the same opportunities as men in the same class, so comparisons between inner city boy and daddy’s little rich girl are presenting a false dichotomy.


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    #100
    engiweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭engiweirdo


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    If we were to get real about what true equality should look like, then there would be no need for anti-discrimination or equality legislation at all. A persons socioeconomic circumstances are far more dictated by their sex than by their class.

    We could argue all day over what class a person belongs to and what assistance should they be entitled to based upon what class they fit into, to give them equal opportunities as someone in another class who has those opportunities by virtue of their parents socioeconomic status.

    What is inarguable however, is that no matter what class women are in, they will never have the same opportunities as men in the same class, so comparisons between inner city boy and daddy’s little rich girl are presenting a false dichotomy.

    It is certainly not inarguable and is in many situations an absolutely laughable conclusion. What exactly is stopping women from any social class from pursuing STEM subjecting they so wished? Especially now with employment procedures so mutilated that a female will absolutely be selected in most instances over a similar/ better qualified male counterpart for a good even role to promote "equality".


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    #101
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    If we were to get real about what true equality should look like, then there would be no need for anti-discrimination or equality legislation at all. A persons socioeconomic circumstances are far more dictated by their sex than by their class.

    We could argue all day over what class a person belongs to and what assistance should they be entitled to based upon what class they fit into, to give them equal opportunities as someone in another class who has those opportunities by virtue of their parents socioeconomic status.

    What is inarguable however, is that no matter what class women are in, they will never have the same opportunities as men in the same class, so comparisons between inner city boy and daddy’s little rich girl are presenting a false dichotomy.

    So you should only compare genders across class? A rich girl compared to a rich boy and a poor girl comprared to a poor girl? The only logic in that is to support your weak arguement that class doesn't matter. Compare a poorer girl with a richer one and see how class affects oppertunity.

    Should we also compare genders in the same race? No other variable should come into it.


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    #102
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    engiweirdo wrote: »
    It is certainly not inarguable and is in many situations an absolutely laughable conclusion. What exactly is stopping women from any social class from pursuing STEM subjecting they so wished?


    The lack of female role models in STEM already is one reason why young girls never consider a career in STEM for starters. For example, without using Google, if I asked you who Valentina Tereshkova was, would you even be able to tell me? I learned about her decades ago, and not in school either. I learned all about men’s achievements though.

    Especially now with employment procedures so mutilated that a female will absolutely be selected in most instances over a similar/ better qualified male counterpart for a good even role to promote "equality".


    This is more of the same old “Wah wah, whitey plundered resources from indigenous peoples across the globe, but now we’re the real victims of mass immigration”. You reap what you sow, and changes in employment procedures now are an outcome of historical inequality when there wasn’t a peep out of whitey about the inequality and injustice of it all when everything was going his own way and he had all the opportunities other people didn’t.


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    #103
    engiweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭engiweirdo


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    The lack of female role models in STEM already is one reason why young girls never consider a career in STEM for starters. For example, without using Google, if I asked you who Valentina Tereshkova was, would you even be able to tell me? I learned about her decades ago, and not in school either. I learned all about men’s achievements though.





    This is more of the same old “Wah wah, whitey plundered resources from indigenous peoples across the globe, but now we’re the real victims of mass immigration”. You reap what you sow, and changes in employment procedures now are an outcome of historical inequality when there wasn’t a peep out of whitey about the inequality and injustice of it all when everything was going his own way and he had all the opportunities other people didn’t.

    Pmsl so @ "Whitey". You absolute self loathing freak in fairness.


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    #104
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    engiweirdo wrote: »
    Pmsl so @ "Whitey". You absolute self loathing freak in fairness.


    That makes two of us pissing ourselves laughing so, for different reasons of course.

    I’m far from self-loathing. In order for that to happen I’d have to agree with and associate myself with people who constantly whinge nowadays about how unfair the world is becoming towards them. The easiest identifying characteristic about them is that they generally tend to be white. A good number of them were once self-congratulatory about their own perceived superior intelligence (until that myth too was debunked by their very own science), and now they’re complaining out of one side of their mouths about the fordiners dat tuk deir jobs and deir wimmins, whilst proudly proclaiming out the other side that the fordin wimmins does be more up for de sex dan de stuck up fugly bitches in their own countries.

    Those types of goons deserve to be laughed at and their opinions dismissed for the bullshìt that it is.


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    #105
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    BrokenArrows wrote: »
    It's not that simple.

    Say the woman never asked for a pay rise in her whole time working there and the man hounded management every year. There will be a pay difference.

    That's a very contrived scenario.
    Take the point as it's meant?


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    #106
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    So you should only compare genders across class? A rich girl compared to a rich boy and a poor girl comprared to a poor girl? The only logic in that is to support your weak arguement that class doesn't matter. Compare a poorer girl with a richer one and see how class affects oppertunity.

    Should we also compare genders in the same race? No other variable should come into it.


    I’m not and have never said that class doesn’t matter. If you’re talking about equality of opportunities, then you’re going to have to give some people opportunities that you don’t give to other people, and vice versa. The State is never going to be able to give a person from Finglas the same opportunities as someone from... I don’t know, a wealthy part of Dublin. Not being from Dublin myself, I don’t know any particularly wealthy areas, so when Franz was talking earlier about D6 and D14 or wherever, either of those postcodes on a CV would be meaningless to me.

    I’ve always maintained anyway I don’t believe in equality, and certainly I don’t believe anything even close to true equality would ever be economically or socially sustainable, those kinds of ideas sound to me awfully like communism and socialism, and as a capitalist libertarian conservative, I just wouldn’t support them. I’m far more interested in private enterprise and the free market economy rather than State interventions and social policies designed to keep oxygen thieves in employment.


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