Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Why I remain staunch FF
Options
Comments
-
Its two years now since the economy began to collapse around our ankles. The property bubble burst as expected and the economy went in to recession as expected it would at some stage. At that moment what we didnt know was the extent of the problems at the banks.Two years of economic, political and social upheaval but it looks as if there is light at the end of the tunnel. There are people who want to smash that light but their political agenda is easily read and they will not succeed..
I want a change of government because its wrong to have a one party State, FF have gone stale and because FF have been at fault in too many areas. However, when I look to my left I see Labour and a concoction of extremists whose economic policies revolve around TAX AND SPEND. Look to my right and I see Fine Gael who have economic policies of NO TAX AND NO SPEND. Economically, politically and socially the Left and Right are so far apart the thoughts of them in government together is terrifying..
I have read and listened to all the attacks of FF and they are being repeated ad nauseum. Life is about words like balance, equilibrium, negotiation, compromise, hope, optimism, solutions, confidence and more. I see nothing coming from the Left or Right that will resolve the problems facing this country and under the circumstances I remain staunch FF
The last four words of this post demonstrate why this country IS and WILL CONTINUE TO BE absolutely f*cked as long as the FF party are allowed to participate in the Governing of this country. FF have practically bankrupted this nation and do not have the brain power to turn it around.0 -
1.
(a) Unsustainable wage agreements.
(b) Ramping up public expenditure by 10%+ per annum while keeping taxes low to hedge their bets with the lobbiests who seek to have low taxes or high spending.
(c)Claiming that we were living off current funds, which were in fact the unsustainable yields of the property bubble, which was stoked by Bertie Ahern and our current Taoiseach.
(d)Abolising our competitive edge by setting prohibitive minimum wages, rolling out broadband at a snail's pace, the prohibitive price of Land Rents, and failing to adequatly deal with PRSI payments.
(e)Using budget 2001/2002 as a pre-election sweetner, and then bowing to media pressure between 2004-2007 when the media began getting on their backs about being "miserly". Again, Bertie's "negotiation and balance" were not displayed as he bowed to pressure and handed out all sorts of goodies which no sensible economy should be doing
(f)Ignoring the factors of productivity to live off the fruits of the property bubble, which put us in great debt for years to come.
(G)Light touch banking regulation which was either a deliberate practive persued by the government to stoke the bubble, or it was downright stupidity on their part. Either way, it is not good.
"What would they have done".
They were not in government at the time. It is a red herring argument, which is used to propogate the myth that we would be as badly in the s**t today if they were in Government. The reality is we dont know how badly we would be in it, because they were not in government.
That is just some of what was done. You can talk about being terrified by the opposition, however, when there is no evidence to suggest that they would do any worse
Completely irrelevant.
These two words describe exactly what the electorate have thought of the Opposition in the last 6 elections. Obviously, its also clear the Opposition believe its completely irrelevant what the electorate think of what might have been and what will be in the future. As the days and weeks go by the chances of FF winning the next election are steadily increasing and the main reason of the shambles that represents itself as an alternative government0 -
Completely irrelevant.
These two words describe exactly what the electorate have thought of the Opposition in the last 6 elections. Obviously, its also clear the Opposition believe its completely irrelevant what the electorate think of what might have been and what will be in the future. As the days and weeks go by the chances of FF winning the next election are steadily increasing and the main reason of the shambles that represents itself as an alternative government
The more I read your posts the more I subscribe to what my father always said.
"the only ones that stayed in Ireland were the lucky already rich, the connected ones and the eejits, the rest were given the boat"
I am not quiet sure which group you belong to, but how anyone can say the opposition are a shambles and then proudly nay arrogantly state they will vote for what must surely be the most expensive shambles of a government that this state has ever had the misfortune to have been governed by, not to mention it includes the top levels from the previous pathetic regime, is truly mind boggling to me.
It appears that supporting ff is akin to believing in a religion, whose leadership will still be supported, even venerated, no matter what wrongs they perpetrate.0 -
Completely irrelevant.
These two words describe exactly what the electorate have thought of the Opposition in the last 6 elections. Obviously, its also clear the Opposition believe its completely irrelevant what the electorate think of what might have been and what will be in the future. As the days and weeks go by the chances of FF winning the next election are steadily increasing and the main reason of the shambles that represents itself as an alternative government
The paupacy of your response says it all. I have argued with HJordan about the fact that we are living in exceptional times, and exceptional circumstances. This means that the next election will not be fought on platitudes or auction politics. It will be about cuts and it will be about pain sharing. In 1987 FG announced that they were going to have to keep cutting and FF announced that nothing would be cut. Once Haughey and McSharry saw the books they thought otherwise, and fiscal rectitude was the order of the day. FG are allowed use that this time, but FF cannot. They have gone down the road of austerity, and cannot try and pull it back from the brink in the name of electioneering.
Second, you have not addressed the fact that a plethora of public sector workers, the 450,000 private sector employees (now unemployed), countless jobless graduates, and the elderley will not look at FG/Lab and rubbish them and return to FF. That happened in 2007, when FG/Lab didnt make the advancement that it needed to. In 2012 the hardships which have been placed on the people of Ireland by governmental incompetence will be remembered. This will ensure that people will turn away.
Equally, how they heck will FF redress the commanding lead of FG/Lab ? There is NO WAY that FF will get an overall majority, and the Greens wil be decimated. Equally, if FF lose the numbers that they are expected to lose there will not be enough gene pool FFers to prop them up. As such your assertions of a FF victory are spurious. The evidence points at FG/Lab.
I think you are the BIFFO style of FF who have such a blinding hatred of FG that you cannot see the wood from the trees, otherwise the evidence would have had you running a mile from remaining "staunchly FF"0 -
Shocking thing about Callaly is that he is only in the Oireachtas thanks to his Northside buddy Ahern. He lost out on election to the Dail, and then he failed to be elected to the Seanad. So Bertie puts him in anyway.
If this is true, it is another disgrace. However, that wont stop Mr Callely seeking our votes in 2012.
sure he inflicted his son on us in the last local elections, Callelly's a leech this country does not need.
i wouldnt be suprised if Bertie promised to look after him if he resigned quietly as Junior Minister after being exposed for getting his house redecorated.0 -
Advertisement
-
anyone who could still even consider voting for the party that has destroyed the economy of this country for generations to come and lead to mass emigration of our youth needs to have their head examined.
i wont even go into the nepotism, cronyism, greed, inflated salaries etc etc that underpinned the country under FF.0 -
-
These two words describe exactly what the electorate have thought of the Opposition in the last 6 elections.
What "electorate" would that be ? The electorate that didn't give FG an overall majority, but didn't give one to FF for the last few elections either ?Obviously, its also clear the Opposition believe its completely irrelevant what the electorate think of what might have been and what will be in the future.
I thought I was getting used to you not making sense, but that sentence makes no sense whatsoever.As the days and weeks go by the chances of FF winning the next election are steadily increasing and the main reason of the shambles that represents itself as an alternative government
On what planet ?
People who are "staunchly" a party won't even bother to look at the facts and evaluate the best option, but there are thankfully enough people starting to see FF for what they are.
It might be too little too late, considering some of them voted FF in last time and helped land us in this mess, but at least it's some progress and can give us some hope for the future.0 -
anyone who could still even consider voting for the party that has destroyed the economy of this country for generations to come and lead to mass emigration of our youth needs to have their head examined.
i wont even go into the nepotism, cronyism, greed, inflated salaries etc etc that underpinned the country under FF.
I completly agree with you, but who would you vote for if you dont mind me asking?
I despise FF for the complete shambles they have caused in this country, and it is their fault. But what alternatives do we have?
FG, Labour - The more time I spend listening to them the less faith I have in them. Its worrying when there are 4 or 5 parties to choose from and they are all as bad as each other.0 -
Sean Quagmire wrote: »I completly agree with you, but who would you vote for if you dont mind me asking?
I despise FF for the complete shambles they have caused in this country, and it is their fault. But what alternatives do we have?
FG, Labour - The more time I spend listening to them the less faith I have in them. Its worrying when there are 4 or 5 parties to choose from and they are all as bad as each other.
as far as i'm concered my local bridge club would do a better job than FF. If you look at the FF front bench there are 6 teachers there, i wont say former teachers as some of them have still got their teaching jobs kept on hold for them should they fail to get re-elected, and out of those 6 teachers we have none as minister for education.
if you look at FG & labour, Bruton is an oxford or cambridge educated economist, Reilly is a doctor, Burton is an accountant, Veradkar is a doctor, Shatter is a barrister there is plenty of ability there.
Enda Kenny may not be the ideal figure head for a FG/Labour coalition but i'd be pretty confident he is honest and a man of integrity which is more than i can say for any of the incumbents.
i'm lucky in my constituency in that we have 2 of the finest td's in the country representing us, Richard Bruton and Finian McGrath so they got my votes last time and i was delighted to see the epitomy of arrogance and pure unadultrated greed Ivor Callelly lose his seat to McGrath.0 -
Advertisement
-
Completely irrelevant.
As the days and weeks go by the chances of FF winning the next election are steadily increasing and the main reason of the shambles that represents itself as an alternative government
And there is no other way to describe it
Can someone help me with this please it doesn't seem to be working thanks0 -
Sean Quagmire wrote: »I completly agree with you, but who would you vote for if you dont mind me asking?
I despise FF for the complete shambles they have caused in this country, and it is their fault. But what alternatives do we have?
FG, Labour - The more time I spend listening to them the less faith I have in them. Its worrying when there are 4 or 5 parties to choose from and they are all as bad as each other.
Missing a very important point that an alternative government even if only the same level of incompetent can take an axe to the quangos that have been created over the years by FF that have their "friends" appointed to their boards.
Quangos cost us about 20 billion a year and its going to be necessary to do this to get our deficit under control. FF will not take an axe to these bodies due to invested interests and party before people attitude toward running the country.
FF are cutting essential services before examining which of these quangos we actually need and what cost cutting we can do to each.0 -
-
Personally I think the opposition are terrified of the prospect of a general election any time soon. They don't have the solutions at all, and would probably end up doing what FF are doing atm, so they are content to spout off rhetoric about restoring public sector cuts etc... But you can bet if the do come to power you will hear excuses for not doing so.
And just a note on Biggins signature there: I believe (open to correction) That Fáil is derived from 'Fál' which is a legendary name for Ireland. Just thought that would interest you!0 -
-
Randomfriend wrote: »what is the point in being staunch anything thats just silliness, just vote in the people you think will do the best job, feck their political party, I myself just dislike hearing people moan about partys and talk about why ''theirs'' is so great, you'd sewar it was football somtimes
That is what has gone wrong with the country. Vote for who is the best not what you have always voted, or your parents. That is why the church had a strangle hold on this country for decades. I can't understand why people would vote without even looking at the policies the different parties have to offer. Or, is they will gain something personally because the politians had bought a vote.0 -
Personally I think the opposition are terrified of the prospect of a general election any time soon. They don't have the solutions at all, and would probably end up doing what FF are doing atm
Who wouldn't be terrified at the thought of sorting out FF's mess ?
And your "probably" is pure supposition.0 -
-
Personally I think the opposition are terrified of the prospect of a general election any time soon. They don't have the solutions at all, and would probably end up doing what FF are doing atm, so they are content to spout off rhetoric about restoring public sector cuts etc... But you can bet if the do come to power you will hear excuses for not doing so.
And just a note on Biggins signature there: I believe (open to correction) That Fáil is derived from 'Fál' which is a legendary name for Ireland. Just thought that would interest you!
couldnt disagree with you more. Politicians are power hungry creatures, of course the opposition want to be in power and they also should be aware that anything they do will be an improvement on FF0 -
Liam Byrne wrote: »Who wouldn't be terrified at the thought of sorting out FF's mess ?
And your "probably" is pure supposition.So what your saying is you didn't look up their solutions and are making massive assumptions and posting them on here thinking they are worthwhile contributions.
Lovely.They have solutions all right but weather they are better than FF I have my doubts. Lets take for instance Labors proposal on how to deal with Anglo. They voted against guaranteeing the bank. Now if they had of had their way Anglo would have gone bust, and dragged all the other banks down with them. That would have been lovely eh?
couldnt disagree with you more. Politicians are power hungry creatures, of course the opposition want to be in power and they also should be aware that anything they do will be an improvement on FF
But in all honesty I don't see a FG/Labour coalition doing much better.0 -
Advertisement
-
I see your post is such
They have solutions all right but weather they are better than FF I have my doubts. Lets take for instance Labors proposal on how to deal with Anglo. They voted against guaranteeing the bank. Now if they had of had their way Anglo would have gone bust, and dragged all the other banks down with them. That would have been lovely eh?
Says you as you gaze into your crystal ball. Why would the other banks have gone bust? Has there been evidence of huge Irish inter-bank lending? The other banks could still have been gauranteed by the irish state but for FF to lump crazy wreckless private debt of developers onto the sovereign shoulders of the irish tax payer is beyond excusable. Anglo was not a systemic bank, it had little to no retail business and a small number of large personal deposits.0 -
Oh I have no doubt they want to be in power but I doubt they would want a general election next week, were they win all right, but they would inherit a collection of half baked semi implemented FF policies. FF have taken us to far down the road(especially with the banking sector) to turn back now. The thing this country needs at this time is stability. Personally what I think is the best option would be to wait the two years or so until the election, then crap all over FF.
But in all honesty I don't see a FG/Labour coalition doing much better.
Even if thats half baked FF stability?
If you cant see FG/Labour doing much better then you really haven't noticed the actual damage FF have done, because I'd argue it'd be impossible for opposition to do any worse0 -
I see your post is such
They have solutions all right but weather they are better than FF I have my doubts. Lets take for instance Labors proposal on how to deal with Anglo. They voted against guaranteeing the bank. Now if they had of had their way Anglo would have gone bust, and dragged all the other banks down with them. That would have been lovely eh?
There are many economists that say saving Anglo was entirely the wrong thing to do.
One has to look at all the data and can still only make a theory of what would happen if an option that wasn't taken had of been chosen instead.
Anglo dragging the other banks down assumes it had systematic importance. I would like to see what information FF and Brian Lenihan made that call on.0 -
That was the point I was making.
You also said that they'd be doing the exact same things, but then you go on to say.....Labors proposal on how to deal with Anglo. They voted against guaranteeing the bank. Now if they had of had their way Anglo would have gone bust, and dragged all the other banks down with them.
Aside from more guesswork (and then some, because if all the banks had gone bust and we'd set up a new one, I'd still be happier) you're contradicting yourself.FF have taken us to far down the road(especially with the banking sector) to turn back now. The thing this country needs at this time is stability. Personally what I think is the best option would be to wait the two years or so until the election, then crap all over FF.
But in all honesty I don't see a FG/Labour coalition doing much better.
I'm stunned! You want to reward incompetence based on a fear that FF & Labour wouldn't "do much better" ?
ANY better would do at this stage, even if it were only 1% better.
It's a sad state of affairs, admittedly, but it's the state of Irish politics at the moment where we have to choose between (a) incompetent and corrupt and (b) slightly less incompetent.0 -
-
Laminations wrote: »Says you as you gaze into your crystal ball. Why would the other banks have gone bust? Has there been evidence of huge Irish inter-bank lending? The other banks could still have been gauranteed by the irish state but for FF to lump crazy wreckless private debt of developers onto the sovereign shoulders of the irish tax payer is beyond excusable. Anglo was not a systemic bank, it had little to no retail business and a small number of large personal deposits.Laminations wrote: »Even if thats half baked FF stability?
If you cant see FG/Labour doing much better then you really haven't noticed the actual damage FF have done, because I'd argue it'd be impossible for opposition to do any worseThere are many economists that say saving Anglo was entirely the wrong thing to do.
One has to look at all the data and can still only make a theory of what would happen if an option that wasn't taken had of been chosen instead.
Anglo dragging the other banks down assumes it had systematic importance. I would like to see what information FF and Brian Lenihan made that call on.Liam Byrne wrote: »You also said that they'd be doing the exact same things, but then you go on to say.....Aside from more guesswork (and then some, because if all the banks had gone bust and we'd set up a new one, I'd still be happier) you're contradicting yourself.I'm stunned! You want to reward incompetence based on a fear that FF & Labour wouldn't "do much better" ?
ANY better would do at this stage, even if it were only 1% better.
It's a sad state of affairs, admittedly, but it's the state of Irish politics at the moment where we have to choose between (a) incompetent and corrupt and (b) slightly less incompetent.0 -
The way I look at is that there obv was some inter bank lending, there has to be for the banks to function. The other banks would suffer. And if that bank went ****shaped the government would have had to pay out on the deposits that bank had. And that amount is much higher than the 14 billion. And of course if one were to see a bank go down like that or if the government didnt pay out the deposits everyone would fear that BOI/AIB would be next and then there would be a run on the banks. And if the government were prepared to let that bank go down other financial institutions would be less inclined to give loans to banks such as BOI. So hence you would have a collapse of the banking system.
Personally I would fear that if another party were to come to power they may fear that they would have to do something different and change the course FF is on, so then you may have an attempted reversal or a direction change of FF policy and then you would have two half arsed solutions on the go and we end up in an even bigger mess.
Many say that it was the right thing to do also. Perhaps the report next week or so may shed some more light. Personally I think saving Anglo was the least worst way to deal with it.
I meant that if they were in power from the last general election.
Wow, you would have been happy if all the banks had gone bust? I am telling you this country would be much worse off if that had of happened! What about everyones deposits? Were would anyone be able to get any loans from? Thousands of businesses would have gone bust, with no temporary overdrafts or anything! And after watching hard earned deposits vanish would you be inclined to ever trust banks ever again? I think not. We would have been rightly fecked if all the banks had gone bust, I am sure every sane person here would agree.
No, I don't want to reward them I want to let them finish what they started. It IS a very sad state of affairs indeed, I am afraid FG/Labour would unleash their incompitanc in another direction and rightly feck us up. For me its a case of its better the Devil you know than the devil you don't. I don't support FF and dont plan on voting for them but I don't trust the opposition either! We want change but we must be careful of what we wish for!
1. NAMA is the only show in town. It may involve further nationalisations, and plenty more recapitlaisation. However, it will not be jettisoned by anybody. If FG/Lab were to get in, they are stuck with it, and wouldnt be stupid enough to try and reverse it given that we have gone so far, and expended so much money on it.
2.Remember 1987 ? Haughey took a similar line to FG/Lab today by opposing all and sundry. FF also fought taht election on the back of the mantra that NOTHING would be cut. However, once they were in power the Haughey/McSharry axis started cutting like no tomorrow and blamed it on the previous administration. I can guarantee you that the same thing would happen if FG/Lab got into power
3.While I dont think the banks should have gone to the wall, the people should know that banking involves the banks use of thier money while it is not in their possession. The banks use this to remain viable, and if people take the risk, and the money is lost, then I apologise, but I shouldnt have to pay for their decision to engage in a banking system which doesnt have their best interests at heart.
4.Saving Anglo ? Most economists think the idea of saving the 8th largest bank in the state as a crazy idea, especially given the fact that the Government seemed intent on attempting to turn it into a viable private entity again. Banks, like any other business must be allowed faill, or alternatively forced mergers should be the order of the day. In this case the state is propping up a defunct bank, which can do absolutly nothing as a lender or a borrower. Plus, given that it is asmall bank, the number of investers would be lower, and the number of those losing out would be smaller. The reverberations from a collapse of a bank like Anglo would be far easier to weather the AIB/BOI. Furthermore, attempts to draw parallels between Lehmanns and Anglo are laughable0 -
Its two years now since the economy began to collapse around our ankles. The property bubble burst as expected and the economy went in to recession as expected it would at some stage. At that moment what we didnt know was the extent of the problems at the banks.Two years of economic, political and social upheaval but it looks as if there is light at the end of the tunnel. There are people who want to smash that light but their political agenda is easily read and they will not succeed..
I want a change of government because its wrong to have a one party State, FF have gone stale and because FF have been at fault in too many areas. However, when I look to my left I see Labour and a concoction of extremists whose economic policies revolve around TAX AND SPEND. Look to my right and I see Fine Gael who have economic policies of NO TAX AND NO SPEND. Economically, politically and socially the Left and Right are so far apart the thoughts of them in government together is terrifying..
I have read and listened to all the attacks of FF and they are being repeated ad nauseum. Life is about words like balance, equilibrium, negotiation, compromise, hope, optimism, solutions, confidence and more. I see nothing coming from the Left or Right that will resolve the problems facing this country and under the circumstances I remain staunch FF
A sad post. Light at the end of the tunnel? Ha, that seems to be the mantra I'm hearing a lot now. Obviously orders from the mother ship. I'm seeing shíte at the end of the tunnel myself. Unemployment is throuhg the roof, beyond any of the typical 13% figures we hear about. The state has no money to spend, needs 20 billion+ for the next few years if not more. It is a disaster and very few people have even realised it. This is not a bad recession this is going to be one of the biggest depressions seen in a first world country and it is going to last a decade.0 -
I meant that if they were in power from the last general election.
If they'd been in power from the last election then maybe we wouldn't have needed the bailout, because the Galway Tent brigade might actually have been regulated and the economy might not have been built on transient taxes.....and we probably wouldn't have had Ahern's version of "benchmarking".Wow, you would have been happy if all the banks had gone bust? I am telling you this country would be much worse off if that had of happened! What about everyones deposits? Were would anyone be able to get any loans from?
I said I would have been "happier" than I am now. Ideally, one or two of the main and most viable banks would have been saved (although I'd probably have debated a lot about AIB, since this was their second time shafting the country).And after watching hard earned deposits vanish would you be inclined to ever trust banks ever again? I think not.
I don't anyway, so what's your point ?We would have been rightly fecked if all the banks had gone bust, I am sure every sane person here would agree.
I'll overlook the attempted snide slur, and point out that A GOOD BANK would have existed in order to take the business.
In fact, I proposed at the time that it should be investigated whether Credit Unions could take up the slack, rather than throw billions at unviable, unethical, profit-at-all-cost businesses that were obviously incapable of managing money and making experienced and sensible decisions.For me its a case of its better the Devil you know than the devil you don't. I don't support FF and dont plan on voting for them but I don't trust the opposition either! We want change but we must be careful of what we wish for!
That's the FF line at the moment, so forgive me if the "I don't support FF" isn't completely credible as a result.
"Any sane person" would point out that the idiots and corrupt scum who landed us in this mess - and who think it's OK to claim €80,000 in expenses paid for by barely-employed people who are being simultaneously screwed by taxes and bailout fees and the banks themselves - are not the ones to get us out of it.0 -
Advertisement
-
Liam Byrne wrote: »If they'd been in power from the last election then maybe we wouldn't have needed the bailout, because the Galway Tent brigade might actually have been regulated and the economy might not have been built on transient taxes.....and we probably wouldn't have had Ahern's version of "benchmarking".I said I would have been "happier" than I am now. Ideally, one or two of the main and most viable banks would have been saved (although I'd probably have debated a lot about AIB, since this was their second time shafting the country).I don't anyway, so what's your point ?I'll overlook the attempted snide slur, and point out that A GOOD BANK would have existed in order to take the business.
There would have been no possibility of a "Good bank" All credabilty would be gone. No one would lend this bank money at all. Foreign banks who were owed money by our banks would also have suffered. Lend money again to Irish banks? Not bloody likely! Could you imagine the riots if everyones hard eaned savings were to suddenly evaporate?In fact, I proposed at the time that it should be investigated whether Credit Unions could take up the slack, rather than throw billions at unviable, unethical, profit-at-all-cost businesses that were obviously incapable of managing money and making experienced and sensible decisions.That's the FF line at the moment, so forgive me if the "I don't support FF" isn't completely credible as a result."Any sane person" would point out that the idiots and corrupt scum who landed us in this mess - and who think it's OK to claim €80,000 in expenses paid for by barely-employed people who are being simultaneously screwed by taxes and bailout fees and the banks themselves - are not the ones to get us out of it.0
Advertisement