Why I remain staunch FF

Tim Robbins

scr123 wrote: »

... that will resolve the problems facing this country and under the circumstances I remain staunch FF

scr123 is there anything that would make you not vote FF? How bad do things have to get?

Liam Byrne

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I think you are missing my point, which was none of the parties in the Dáil were advocating fiscal responsibility during the boom. In fact the government at the time was criticised for not spending enough.

And I think you are missing mine. I said it's not a question of how much you spend......it's what you spend it on.

So saying "FG said to spend more" is irrelevant without saying what they were spending it on.

Imagine - for example - if they'd spent some of it on broadband ?

Think - for a second - how much did FF waste on eVoting machines ? (including their storage and destruction)

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Better the Devil you know... at least until 2012.

That's fine as a Kylie song title, but in reality I'd prefer not to know any devils, let alone give them opportunities to flush more billions down the toilet via clandestine undocumented meetings.

Anyways, I think we're hijacking the thread because - looking at the immediately preceding post Tim Robbins appears to not have realised that I'd already asked scr123 that question and gotten absolutely no reply.

MrDarcy

scr123 wrote: »

Life is about words like balance, equilibrium, negotiation, compromise, hope, optimism, solutions, confidence and more

How about life maybe being about having a little bit of f*cking competence, a smidgen of responsibility, and maybe the tiniest degree of selflessness and maybe acting in the common good instead of trying to get elected back to power on the back of outrageous "sure you can all regulate yourselves, see you in the tent in Galway", type policies relating to property and banking???

Sulmac

Baralis1 wrote: »

Fianna Fail have an awful lot of faults, not least their refusal to allow those three by-elections, but at the end of the day, would Fine Gael have done anything different over the last 10 - 15 years if they had led a coalition.

Although you may well be right, I am more concerned about voting on issues and policies relevant now rather than issues from three years ago at the last election.

maynooth_rules

Baralis1 wrote: »

Fianna Fail have an awful lot of faults, not least their refusal to allow those three by-elections, but at the end of the day, would Fine Gael have done anything different over the last 10 - 15 years if they had led a coalition.

Don't mean to be attacking you hear, but it really really irriatates me when people look past Fianna Fail mistakes and say that the opposition would have done the same. We have no basis for saying that. Judge Fianna Fail on what they have done in recent years, not on the basis that the oppisition MIGHT have done the same. Some people seem to be absconding Fianna Fail of blame by attacking the opposition over issues they have no control over

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

maynooth_rules

Quite simply, the last election was dominated by self-congratulatory, feel-good waffle. None of the parties were advocating a U-turn in strategy—none of them fundamentally opposed what the bankers and developers were doing.

But only one party had a tent at the Galway Races to cosy up to these developers and bankers. Everything that is wrong with our country took place in that tent:mad:

scr123

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Don't mean to be attacking you hear, but it really really irriatates me when people look past Fianna Fail mistakes and say that the opposition would have done the same. We have no basis for saying that. Judge Fianna Fail on what they have done in recent years, not on the basis that the oppisition MIGHT have done the same. Some people seem to be absconding Fianna Fail of blame by attacking the opposition over issues they have no control over

For two years now in the real world I have asked those critical of FF three questions:
1 How exactly did FF ruin the country
2 What would they have done
3 What will they do to restore the economy

On question 1 they will go on for hours badmouthing FF
Ask them to turn to 2 and 3 they totally and utterly refuse to engage and instead continue badmouthing FF.

Why should I even remotely contemplate the Opposition as an alternative to FF ?

I have no choice but to continue voting FF and this is a deplorable situation

maynooth_rules

scr123 wrote: »

For two years now in the real world I have asked those critical of FF three questions:
1 How exactly did FF ruin the country
2 What would they have done
3 What will they do to restore the economy

On question 1 they will go on for hours badmouthing FF
Ask them to turn to 2 and 3 they totally and utterly refuse to engage and instead continue badmouthing FF.

Why should I even remotely contemplate the Opposition as an alternative to FF ?

I have no choice but to continue voting FF and this is a deplorable situation

Can I ask what is your basis for voting FF?? Is it simply because the Opposition are not impressing you enough??

loldog

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Can I ask what is your basis for voting FF?? Is it simply because the Opposition are not impressing you enough??

Well he has a point, in fairness. It's actually a valid reason to vote for a party - the absence of a better alternative.

.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

danman

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This post fully explains the "How do you know they would have done the same" argument.

There also seems to be an argument, that we should remember FF's past, but forget about FG's previous manifestos.

I would consider FF this time in the next election, simply because, as far as I can see, they seem to be doing everything required to get us out of the mess.

I've stated before, I voted FG in the last GE.

But the opposition are simply living up to their name. They just seem to oppose anything and everything.
Yet they will not give unequivocal terms of how they would cut the budget, or increase taxes, simply because it would make them unpopular as well.

This strategey seems to me, to be every much as dishonest, trying to appear as populist as possible, without having to make any real decisions. To try to get into government.

As dishonest as not holding elections to hold onto a majority.

I'm going to hold my vote in reserve untill the election time.
If FG don't come out in public and state how exactly they are going to cut expenditure and increase income. I'll vote the current lot back in. At least I'll know that they are doing the correct things.

Sulmac

danman wrote: »

I would consider FF this time in the next election, simply because, as far as I can see, they seem to be doing everything required to get us out of the mess.

The mess that they quite clearly got us into. They shouldn't be congratulated for fixing (or, more appropriately, attempting to fix) something they caused.

Yet they will not give unequivocal terms of how they would cut the budget, or increase taxes, simply because it would make them unpopular as well.

Fine Gael: see this, this and this. Detailed policy documents on the public finances and banking crisis (among other issues).

Labour: see this, this and this.

This strategey seems to me, to be every much as dishonest, trying to appear as populist as possible, without having to make any real decisions. To try to get into government.

As personified by the Bertie years. It's not like the government parties are being completely honest with us either. Every few weeks another bank needs a few more billion pumped into it, or there's some political scandal (think John O'Donoghue, Trevor Sargent, Willie O'Dea).

As donegalfella said, if they were brutally honest about taxes-and-cuts, they wouldn't have a chance of political office as we're consistently "turning a corner" and "going forward" with the current shower. Advocating mass tax increases or public spending cuts is political suicide, whether you're in government or opposition.

As dishonest as not holding elections to hold onto a majority.

Going to have to agree here.

I'm going to hold my vote in reserve untill the election time.
If FG don't come out in public and state how exactly they are going to cut expenditure and increase income. I'll vote the current lot back in. At least I'll know that they are doing the correct things.

Or know what they're not doing.

danman

Sulmac wrote: »

Although you may well be right, I am more concerned about voting on issues and policies relevant now rather than issues from three years ago at the last election.

Sulmac wrote: »

The mess that they quite clearly got us into. They shouldn't be congratulated for fixing (or, more appropriately, attempting to fix) something they caused.

don't you see the contradiction there.
We should forget about one thing, but remember something else?

As to whether the government are doing the right things, that's simply a matter of opinion.
I resepct others opinion, and I expect my opinion to be respected.

And as the old saying goes, opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.
(well, not everyone, ostomites excluded )

Sulmac

danman wrote: »

don't you see the contradiction there.
We should forget about one thing, but remember something else?

Well, that's debatable, but there's a difference in what one group said they would and what another group actually did.

I do see your point though.

Liam Byrne

danman wrote: »

don't you see the contradiction there.
We should forget about one thing, but remember something else?

OK - let's assume that FG's strategy was based on the same ideas, and that they wouldn't have spent the same money more wisely.

So (for the sake of argument) let's assume that both are "equal" on that front.

Based on current strategies alone, FF want NAMA and Anglo-Irish bailouts, while FG don't.

1) FF are lying through their teeth every second day about the amounts that Anglo and NAMA will cost us.
2) FF created legislation to benefit banks and developers which had absolutely no safeguards, and wash their hands of every bank decision made since.
3) FF continue to vote confidence in corrupt con-men and expense-grabbers.
4) FF shuffle a cabinet of incompetents around, making no real changes and offering no leaders or inspiration to a country in crisis.
5) FF - despite not allowing for an election - continue to be deluded and refuse to acknowledge that they did anything to the detriment of the country.

Even leaving aside whether FG would have landed us in as deep a mess (and personally I don't think they would) those reasons above alone - and the resulting future uncompetitiveness - are good enough reasons not to vote FF.

Tim Robbins

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

In fairness, how do you think a polictical party would have done in 2007 if they said the economy would grow for another year and a half and then completly collapse.

The problem with FF is that they are linked with vested interest groups that are central to the economic mess. It would be the equivalent of 12 years of FG and all of a sudden farmers causing economic collapse.

Get a good strong FG in, with the minimum amount of labour as possible and keep going with cut backs and increased regulation of finacial services. The government should last at least 2.5 years.

By that stage, Cowen will be gone. And hopefully Martin will be leader with a better FF government.

That's the best hope for Ireland right now.

danman

Liam Byrne wrote: »

OK - let's assume that FG's strategy was based on the same ideas, and that they wouldn't have spent the same money more wisely.

So (for the sake of argument) let's assume that both are "equal" on that front.

Based on current strategies alone, FF want NAMA and Anglo-Irish bailouts, while FG don't.

1) FF are lying through their teeth every second day about the amounts that Anglo and NAMA will cost us.
2) FF created legislation to benefit banks and developers which had absolutely no safeguards, and wash their hands of every bank decision made since.
3) FF continue to vote confidence in corrupt con-men and expense-grabbers.
4) FF shuffle a cabinet of incompetents around, making no real changes and offering no leaders or inspiration to a country in crisis.
5) FF - despite not allowing for an election - continue to be deluded and refuse to acknowledge that they did anything to the detriment of the country.

Even leaving aside whether FG would have landed us in as deep a mess (and personally I don't think they would) those reasons above alone - and the resulting future uncompetitiveness - are good enough reasons not to vote FF.

Liam, you are forgetting 2 very important points about this:-

1) FG are in opposition, no one can say that given the choice, they woulnt have done the exact same things. Their job in the Dail is to oppose any legislation and propose alternatives.

It is not simply as easy as saying, hey wouldn't have set up NAMA if they were in government.
The government have more information at their disposal to make these decisions. FG wouldn't have agreed with the strategy if FF had set up a bad bank, would they?
They might have come up with a NAMA.

This brings me to point 2

2) A FG government would have the exact same civil servants giving the exact same advice.

Do you think that FF came up with the idea of NAMA, or anything else for that matter?

They react on the advice given.

It's all retorical, I know, but it is important, if the argument is being used that FG wouldn't have used the same tactics as FF to solve the economic problems.

Liam Byrne

danman wrote: »

They might have come up with a NAMA.

And if they had I'd be criticising them, too.

I notice that you bypassed the issue of Anglo, which FG were COMPLETELY against.

danman wrote: »

Do you think that FF came up with the idea of NAMA, or anything else for that matter?

The point is that they wrote it into law, with no safeguards.

If indeed you were right, then I'd be criticising FG here - as I've said before I have no party allegience.

But at the moment such statements are similar to the "do all men cheat" questions on the PI thread.....until someone does, then you can't assume that they would.

danman

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I notice that you bypassed the issue of Anglo, which FG were COMPLETELY against.

I only picked NAMA, the point for Anglo is the same.

They are completly against it, in the exact same way they are against NAMA.
If they had the exact same advise, they could well have made the same decisions.

As you say, if FG were making the decisions about NAMA while in government, I would probably look at in the same way I do now.

The point I made, was the same advise would be available.

I always see government in a very simplified way.
Problem comes up, government asks the civil service how it can be solved, decision is made.

Government comes up with a direction, the civil service tells them how it can be done.

Government - "Banks are in the ****e"
civil service - "Capitalise and form NAMA"
Government - "Right, so"
Opposition - "that's wrong, do it this way..."

Nate--IRL--

It's more like,

Government - "We must do something!"
Civil service - "This is something"
Government - "Let's do that!"

Nate

Fr0g

The Rainbow coalition of 94 to 97 was one of the most successful governments we have ever had. They managed to grow the economy (creating 1000 jobs a week) while keeping inflation below 2%. They brought in the first budget surplus in 28 years. This was an economy based on sound fundamentals i.e. manufaturing and exports. As soon as FF got into power they completely lost the run of themselves slashing taxes and increasing spending to the extent that inflation spiralled out of control reaching almost 7% within 3 years of FF taking power. I have no problem voting FG or Labour based on their previous record.

oppenheimer1

Fr0g wrote: »

The Rainbow coalition of 94 to 97 was one of the most successful governments we have ever had. They managed to grow the economy (creating 1000 jobs a week) while keeping inflation below 2%. They brought in the first budget surplus in 28 years. This was an economy based on sound fundamentals i.e. manufaturing and exports. As soon as FF got into power they completely lost the run of themselves slashing taxes and increasing spending to the extent that inflation spiralled out of control reaching almost 7% within 3 years of FF taking power. I have no problem voting FG or Labour based on their previous record.

Would their previous record include what they have written in their Manifestos?

fontanalis

Ah staunchy memories.
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/04/17/story30612.asp

Fr0g

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Would their previous record include what they have written in their Manifestos?

It would be based on their previous record in office. You would be a fool to believe anything written in an election manifesto tbh.

Fr0g

fontanalis wrote: »

Ah staunchy memories.
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/04/17/story30612.asp

lol! I think that proves my point.

Fr0g

Cowens speech at the launch of FF's Economic Policy Document 16th April 2007:

FF Economic Policy Document Speech

And a choice quote:

The next generation will not inherit our net debt and their opportunities and choices will be all the better as a direct result of our prudence, responsibility and long-term approach. Lifting the burden of debt from the shoulders of our children is not only the most fiscally-prudent course, it is simply the right thing to do for a generation which will face increased economic competition from across the world. It is important that all our resources are available to meet future challenges.

What a sad, sad fool.

eigrod

In response to the OP, a small selection of reasons why I never have or never will vote FF :

CJ Haughey
P. Flynn
Beverley Cooper Flynn
Liam Lawlor
Denis Foley
Ray Burke
Bertie Ahern
Charlie McCreevey
Jim McDaid
John O' Donoghue
Frank Dunlop
Galway tent
Anglo Irish Bank

ejmaztec

I can't help but think that "staunch" is almost the same as "stench".

scr123

eigrod wrote: »

In response to the OP, a small selection of reasons why I never have or never will vote FF :

CJ Haughey
P. Flynn
Beverley Cooper Flynn
Liam Lawlor
Denis Foley
Ray Burke
Bertie Ahern
Charlie McCreevey
Jim McDaid
John O' Donoghue
Frank Dunlop
Galway tent
Anglo Irish Bank

I have one main reason why I cannot vote for any part of the Opposition, THEY TERRIFY ME !
I could write pages of why I will not vote other than FF but talking to a wall of intolerance is a waste of time.

What I will say is this, once the next GE is over watch the unemployment figures climb to somewhere between 700000 to 800000. Watch the destruction of confidence in the business community.

The Polls suggest the electorate wants to punish FF
This is the same arrogant electorate, mainly the Opposition, who punished FF by voting No in first Lisbon Treaty referendum

The same arrogant electorate who 18 months or so later realised their blunder and voted 2 to 1 in favour of the Treaty

Yes I say FF need a break from Government but holy god the next 4 years is not the time to get rid of them and put in place a concoction with a sickening record of failure