Has ignoring red lights gotten a lot worse?

BeardySi · 23-12-2018 4:52pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But the UK does have a problem with Amber Gamblers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4TDEPP1R9Q

In fairness, that's 40 year old video....

Realistically you don't really see many shooting off on red+amber bar the odd boy racer who's been hanging on the clutch the whole time. Even at the front of the queue you'd only be just rolling by the time it went green normally...

Problem is (at least in Belfast) there's still a long lag when all directions have red and that encourages RLJ-ing. It's usual to see 3 or 4 run through the red with each sequence before the other direction even sees Amber.

ED E · 23-12-2018 4:55pm

This probationer gard thing is going well

https://twitter.com/derekfoley1980/status/1076122343100112896

Stark · 23-12-2018 5:30pm

What junction is that? From the flow it sort of looks like there might have been a right filter light that's out of view of the guy taking the video.

23-12-2018 6:56pm

BeardySi wrote: »

In fairness, that's 40 year old video....

Realistically you don't really see many shooting off on red+amber bar the odd boy racer who's been hanging on the clutch the whole time. Even at the front of the queue you'd only be just rolling by the time it went green normally...

Problem is (at least in Belfast) there's still a long lag when all directions have red and that encourages RLJ-ing. It's usual to see 3 or 4 run through the red with each sequence before the other direction even sees Amber.

A 40 year old video (same age as my licence), similar problems today, but yes the "pause" is what is allowing it to happen as drivers know that there are no consequences of jumping the lights before the other direction is allowed to go.
In Russia, they have a pre-change flashing green about 5 seconds before the single amber, then red - immediately followed by the red-amber sequence for the other direction.

Jumping a red in Russia usually results in your car getting crushed!

dr.fuzzenstein · 23-12-2018 8:40pm

In Soviet Russia car crushes you!
Anyway, cameras all the way. Loads of points, stiff fine, driving ban and for novice drivers loss of license and redo test.
No fcuking around, ignore the moaners, it works, end of.

fullstop · 24-12-2018 4:04am

1874 wrote: »

it would be too confusing for people to understand, plus there are lots of pedestrian lights included at junctions here especially in busy junctions, maybe not so much in the US. Things would work if people obeyed the existing lights, it's probably busier now, so more traffic and the same roads, rushing from one queue to the next doesn't save time, although I think if we had amber before green it would help make use of the green light time available, still need cameras to enforce red lights and penalise those that won't comply, no doubt we will all pay for it, but it's one thing I think is necessary and worth it, too many willing to take a chance and not consider the consequences to others.

It’s able to work in lots of countries with pedestrian lights built into junctions, but drivers here are too selfish for it to work. Sydney is a great example. On every junction you will have a green pedestrian light while there is a green light for cars going the other way. If a car wants to turn left they yield to pedestrians but they will still get through. It negates the need for having all traffic stopped for the pedestrian light.
On probably 10-20% of the major junctions they have red light cams, it will only catch you if you pass the line on red, so there’s no ‘oh it was amber’. You can’t miss the big flash and you’ll know a fine is coming, to the tune of $500. The result is that you rarely see people breaking a red light.
Dublin is a disgrace at the minute, people sail on through without a care in the world. I had one a couple of weeks ago, I was first in line at a red and was watching the other light, goes amber, then red, and 3 or 4 seconds later a car that was actually stopped accelerated through while I had a green. Not one **** given because he’ll never be caught for it.

Duckjob · 24-12-2018 2:17pm

I hate to say it, as an Irish person myself, but I find we have become very self centred, with very little sense of shared citizenship or community.

Every morning, walking with the kids to school I see neighbours (with their own kids safely tucked up inside the car) burning up the roads of my estate with no regard for the safety or wellbeing of anyone outside the car, Those who happen to be the very people they share a community with.

I agree with a previous poster - enforce the s**t out of the existing laws with particular regard to speeding and red light breaking, and behaviours will improve very sharply.

People take the absolute piss on the road now, simply because they can.

No government or police force should have to make excuses for or justify enforcing laws that are such basic tenets of road safety.

24-12-2018 3:53pm

Just a reminder of why it is a bad idea to jump red lights, some of the videos show drivers completely ignoring the lights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5aFCxY50D4

Macy0161 · 24-12-2018 3:59pm

Waiting at the Clonskeagh Road/ Beech Hill Road (beaver row) junction this morning, 3 cars ahead of me didn't bother to wait for the full green and took the right turn through a clear red and through the green man on the pedestrian crossing.

ZX7R · 25-12-2018 10:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Just a reminder of why it is a bad idea to jump red lights, some of the videos show drivers completely ignoring the lights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5aFCxY50D4

the scary part is how fast most were traveling when breaking the lights:eek:

trellheim · 26-12-2018 1:31pm

I have a strong feeling we will be ruing this soon - there will be a terrible accident.

Hanlons corner is a deathtrap for this, the westbound yellow box is an incitement to break the lights.

.G. · 26-12-2018 2:18pm

Another thing Irish drivers don't give a sh!t about. Yellow boxes. Adds to the frustration at junctions and leads to its fair share of light breaking. Mayor st lower/Guild st is a joke on a daily basis.

AndrewJRenko · 26-12-2018 2:53pm

superg wrote: »

Another thing Irish drivers don't give a sh!t about. Yellow boxes. Adds to the frustration at junctions and leads to its fair share of light breaking. Mayor st lower/Guild st is a joke on a daily basis.

Particularly in wet weather - once the rain starts, some people seem to decide that they'll get through their journey quicker if they do their best to jam up every junction in the city on their route.

magicbastarder · 23-01-2019 11:30pm

not sure if there's something in the water of late, but it's gotten especially bananas recently.
i've seen multiple instances of cars running reds approx. 4 or 5s after they've gone red, in the last week - twice in one day on the junction where griffith avenue meets the malahide road. on one of those occasions, four cars went through a red.

CramCycle · 23-01-2019 11:35pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

not sure if there's something in the water of late, but it's gotten especially bananas recently.
i've seen multiple instances of cars running reds approx. 4 or 5s after they've gone red, in the last week - twice in one day on the junction where griffith avenue meets the malahide road. on one of those occasions, four cars went through a red.

Only one, must be more cautious around your part of the country, four would be typical at rush hour, in fact it would be minimum for large parts of rush hour at many junctions

magicbastarder · 23-01-2019 11:39pm

i should point out that this was before 7am. a while before rush hour started in earnest.

CramCycle · 23-01-2019 11:43pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i should point out that this was before 7am. a while before rush hour started in earnest.

Outside of the core city centre, red lights do not apply to most vehicles between the hours of two and seven, at all, once they are at work or going to work, or simply want to get home a bit quicker. Did no on evre tell you this?

AndrewJRenko · 23-01-2019 11:56pm

I sent this one to the UK coach company tonight - just off the ferry, and straight through a red light in busy traffic at a busy junction with lots of pedestrians and cyclists around;

https://streamable.com/g11vr

magicbastarder · 24-01-2019 9:04am

thoroughly comical one this morning, traffic turning right off leopardstown road onto the N11. i counted at least 9 running the red, and even after waiting several seconds after the light turned green for me, there were still people running the red coming against us.

EdgeCase · 24-01-2019 9:35am

It's become a joke. There's no enforcement at all and that result of that is that brazen has become normalised as traffic has become busier.

If there's no consequence to blasting through the red lights, it will keep happening.

CramCycle · 24-01-2019 10:01am

EdgeCase wrote: »

It's become a joke. There's no enforcement at all and that result of that is that brazen has become normalised as traffic has become busier.

If there's no consequence to blasting through the red lights, it will keep happening.

There is a traffic light to cross the road near my kids school, you'd be lucky if the first two cars stopped on red. One actually kept creeping as we tried to cross last week and finally copped me staring. Looks back at me and mouthed, what's your f'in problem? The sooner red light cameras are rolled out with ANPR the better, some people will never understand civility, so the only way to learn them is train them like domestic animals with a punishment everyone they do wrong until good behaviour becomes a learned trait

amcalester · 24-01-2019 10:05am

CramCycle wrote: »

There is a traffic light to cross the road near my kids school, you'd be lucky if the first two cars stopped on red. One actually kept creeping as we tried to cross last week and finally copped me staring. Looks back at me and mouthed, what's your f'in problem? The sooner red light cameras are rolled out with ANPR the better, some people will never understand civility, so the only way to learn them is train them like domestic animals with a punishment everyone they do wrong until good behaviour becomes a learned trait

I'm looking forward to the threads against Red Light Cameras, shooting fish in barrel, there's no danger, the lights are red for too long, cyclists do it all the time etc.

Should make for good well balanced debate:D

EdgeCase · 24-01-2019 10:10am

You'd also wonder how many pedestrians are being injured by this and also how many knock on delays are being caused by cars blocking junctions by going through too late or worse again, having minor collisions.

A fender bender incident can cause mayhem in terms of traffic.

Macy0161 · 24-01-2019 10:18am

EdgeCase wrote: »

also how many knock on delays are being caused by cars blocking junctions by going through too late or worse again, having minor collisions.

The lights are squenced with big gaps to allow for it. I guess there could be an argument that adds to delays (to get to the next bottle neck though maybe).

And we have more pedestrian lights because the authorities have given up on zebra crossings as motorists don't know/ care/ ignore the rules around them so they are a danger to pedestrians. I'd assume that's why most of the new pedestrian crossing lights don't have a flashing amber either - motorists can't be trusted.

trellheim · 24-01-2019 10:38am

I live near NCR in D7 at the moment and the amount of red light jumpers is ridiculous. I am not sure of the motive .

markpb · 24-01-2019 10:47am

amcalester wrote: »

I'm looking forward to the threads against Red Light Cameras, shooting fish in barrel, there's no danger, the lights are red for too long, cyclists do it all the time etc. Should make for good well balanced debate:D

The rhetoric against red light cameras is already well rehearsed. Take your pick between a) people will crash into me when I stop and b) people will spend more time looking at the lights than the road in front of them. For bonus points, add in: when will cyclists have reg plates so the cameras can fine them too.

Macy0161 · 24-01-2019 10:51am

markpb wrote: »

The rhetoric against red light cameras is already well rehearsed.

Cameras should allow amber in the Red to Green sequence though. If they played it right they could offset the enforcement with benefit.

miamee · 24-01-2019 10:53am

It's standard in the mornings when crossing at the quays in Dublin (Inns Quay this morning) to wait for the green man and then wait a few more seconds for the last rush of cyclists, buses (yes even buses) and cars to rush through so they can sit in traffic on this side of the lights instead of that. You have to have your wits about you.

RayCun · 24-01-2019 11:08am

at the corner of Fenian Street and Macken Street there's a release light to turn right onto Macken street. This morning, I watched as two cars and a truck drove through while the release light was red, through the pedestrian crossing that was green. Not amber gambling, just ignoring the lights completely.

NutmegGirl · 24-01-2019 11:20am

magicbastarder wrote: »

thoroughly comical one this morning, traffic turning right off leopardstown road onto the N11. i counted at least 9 running the red, and even after waiting several seconds after the light turned green for me, there were still people running the red coming against us.

I drive through this junction from diff directions 5/6 times/day
Twice recently at that junction and once at the junction of N11/kilmacud road/Stillorgan Park I’ve seen a car get marooned in the middle of the road when they’ve ran a red light but not at a high enough speed to get across the full 6 lanes, the traffic on N11 starts and doesn’t let them through
You’d hope that having traffic flying past the front and back of your car would stop you from doing it again, but it’s an accident waiting to happen esp if the car is longer

Zipppy · 08-02-2019 8:12pm

Zipppy wrote:

At last...citu badly needs this type of service...daughter is in Vancouver and the Eco Car service there is similar to this..bleeperbike of cars...and it's fab. We live near city centre..could be persuaded to get rid if our car...

Macy0161 wrote:

And we have more pedestrian lights because the authorities have given up on zebra crossings as motorists don't know/ care/ ignore the rules around them so they are a danger to pedestrians. I'd assume that's why most of the new pedestrian crossing lights don't have a flashing amber either - motorists can't be trusted.

You're spot on..irish drivers completely ignore the laws .. ah sure it'll be grand..hence authorities need to compensate..

magicbastarder · 10-02-2019 2:28pm

https://twitter.com/TheAgenda/status/959272692049354753

i wonder has anyone done a study on this in ireland?

EdgeCase · 10-02-2019 4:32pm

Plug in a few well positioned red light cameras at various locations and have a public campaign similar to the speeding ones and you'd see a massive fall off in this very quickly.

There's no enforcement or public education campaign going on and an occasional thing has become endemic.

First Up · 10-02-2019 4:34pm

EdgeCase wrote:

Plug in a few well positioned ref light cameras at various locations and have a public campaign similar to the speeding ones and you'd see a massive fall off in this very quickly.

Yep, that's the only way to cure it.

10-02-2019 4:50pm

First Up wrote: »

Yep, that's the only way to cure it.

or use the Russian light sequence, the instant it's red in one way it's green for cross traffic.
Red light runners get their cars crushed!

Problem solved!

First Up · 10-02-2019 4:52pm

Deleted User wrote:

Problem solved!

It hasn't stopped crashes in Russia if YouTube is anything to go by.

CramCycle · 10-02-2019 4:54pm

No public campaign, that's why the speed cameras don't work, a majority of drivers know the locations and slow just before where they are normally found giving a false sense that speeding is not an issue.

Red light cameras, tagged in with average speed software. Install them in a few random places around the major urban areas, and slowly expand it over time. After the first influx of fines, it will drop dramatically , then it will increase a bit as people think they`ve figured out which ones then as it expands and the second large wave of fines comes, it will drop significantly as Most people will realise it's easier not to speed and not break lights rather than trying to game the system.
Tie it into revenue commission, catch people who declared off road, who are out of tax for over a month and then tie in the NCT system. Anyone out of date Not on their way to a test van get popped.
Christ, the points accrued by some in the first six Months will solve the congestion issues as so many will be off the road.
I'd be in favour of fines and points, but happy with either or,.
I'd also be in favour of the whole system going to the revue commission, only crowd who can get what down without hassle or PR issues.

10-02-2019 5:18pm

First Up wrote: »

It hasn't stopped crashes in Russia if YouTube is anything to go by.

True, but there are far fewer chancers there as they're certain to crash, the only people who appear to "jump the lights" there are probably drunk or simply not looking at the lights.

jochenstacker · 10-02-2019 9:03pm

CramCycle wrote: »

No public campaign, that's why the speed cameras don't work, a majority of drivers know the locations and slow just before where they are normally found giving a false sense that speeding is not an issue.

The one and only road safety campaign that every single person in Ireland is guaranteed to have seen is "Speed Kills".
Add to that the advent of points and eventual ban from the road plus the ill-fated Traffic Corps, one has to say that the only campaign (besides drink driving) that has been consequently pursued is the one about speeding.
I remember how people drove in Ireland in the 90's and it's completely different today.
Yes, people speed, yes the know where the cameras are, but the attitude on the whole has improved.

And the same can be done for red light jumpers. Cameras, points, fines, bans and public awareness campaigns and it can all be easily sorted.
There will be a few cranks and weirdos bitching and moaning initially, but you just have to ignore the Joe Duffy Brigade (Jaysis, it had only just gone red Joe, it's a disgrace!) and keep it up, people will soon learn manners.

AndrewJRenko · 10-02-2019 9:41pm

jochenstacker wrote: »

The one and only road safety campaign that every single person in Ireland is guaranteed to have seen is "Speed Kills".
Add to that the advent of points and eventual ban from the road plus the ill-fated Traffic Corps, one has to say that the only campaign (besides drink driving) that has been consequently pursued is the one about speeding.
I remember how people drove in Ireland in the 90's and it's completely different today.
Yes, people speed, yes the know where the cameras are, but the attitude on the whole has improved.

I'm not so sure that attitudes really have improved. Yes, we have less drink driving, and we have less bangers on the road thanks to NCT, but apart from that, attitudes on the road are fairly atrocious.

Most drivers break speed limits on every journey. Large numbers of drivers are on their phones at every set of traffic lights, and quite a few are on their phones while driving, whether calling, texting, scrolling or having video-chats with family.

jochenstacker · 11-02-2019 7:32am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

jochenstacker wrote: »

The one and only road safety campaign that every single person in Ireland is guaranteed to have seen is "Speed Kills".
Add to that the advent of points and eventual ban from the road plus the ill-fated Traffic Corps, one has to say that the only campaign (besides drink driving) that has been consequently pursued is the one about speeding.
I remember how people drove in Ireland in the 90's and it's completely different today.
Yes, people speed, yes the know where the cameras are, but the attitude on the whole has improved.

I'm not so sure that attitudes really have improved. Yes, we have less drink driving, and we have less bangers on the road thanks to NCT, but apart from that, attitudes on the road are fairly atrocious.

Most drivers break speed limits on every journey. Large numbers of drivers are on their phones at every set of traffic lights, and quite a few are on their phones while driving, whether calling, texting, scrolling or having video-chats with family.

And that is absolutely true.
And it's still better compared to the 90's.

Back then there were no penalty points. You could drive through the country and be caught for speeding 17 times, as long as you paid your fine, you could keep right on speeding.
Companies would pay the fines for drivers that had to cover the entire country in one day.
To me the biggest game changers were penalty points and the motorway network.

I am absolutely not saying everything is fine, it's just different.
Back then, there were a lot of extremely aggressive drivers and a lot of very passive aggressive slow drivers that would try and hold up the fasters ones.
Today there's more of a miasma of general incompetence and general disregard for the rules.
And that was kind of the aim of the RSA.
You couldn't teach people to drive properly, but you could slow them down.
What you get is a huge sea of incompetence, but not as many killed.

RacoonQueen · 11-02-2019 7:46am

CramCycle wrote: »

Christ, the points accrued by some in the first six Months will solve the congestion issues as so many will be off the road.
I'd be in favour of fines and points, but happy with either or,.
I'd also be in favour of the whole system going to the revue commission, only crowd who can get what down without hassle or PR issues.

Jesus, imagine the uproar.
"It's too easy to get 12 points and be disqualified"
"Flash for cash cameras at the lights now"
"i had to break the red light"
"The amber wasn't on long enough"
"The car behind me would have rear ended me" - had a pleasant 'discussion' with someone on twitter who said he had to speed at the M7 roadworks because the trucks and buses behind him are speeding and will just rear end him if he doesn't speed. :rolleyes:

etc

L1011 · 11-02-2019 9:53am

Red light cameras in many US cities increased rear-ending collisions hugely and they've been taken out in some cities due to it. Points only would stop any claims of it being a revenue measure

GreeBo · 11-02-2019 9:59am

L1011 wrote: »

Red light cameras in many US cities increased rear-ending collisions hugely and they've been taken out in some cities due to it. Points only would stop any claims of it being a revenue measure

It'll get worse before it gets better.

CramCycle · 11-02-2019 10:26am

L1011 wrote: »

Red light cameras in many US cities increased rear-ending collisions hugely and they've been taken out in some cities due to it. Points only would stop any claims of it being a revenue measure

Only one study I can find, and to be honest, all it really seems to say is that it makes no difference to accident rates, certain types drop, others increase but overall, very little changes. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001457506000273
There are several issues with the study, and they admit that there are issues, particularly in regards left on red, observation etc. They also talk about 8 months of data collection but in reality, they only capture one month of data after citations started, and that was within the first three months after they were installed. The one overwhelming thing that can be said is that placement of red light cameras reduces red light running. Accidents fluctuate in their type but seemingly not so much in their severity.

GreeBo wrote: »

It'll get worse before it gets better.

And no study I can see has done enough to say this assertion is wrong, the Chicago tribune has there own one but it reads like something the Metro put together and does not appear to look at other conflating issues.

magicbastarder · 11-02-2019 10:29am

they do say the number of t-bones reduced, but the number of rear-endings went up. would be curious about injury rates - a t-bone strikes me as a less pleasant crash to be in.

EdgeCase · 11-02-2019 11:16am

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it was also just a non-statistically based reaction by some local politicians in a particular city because some of their constituents were annoyed with getting tickets for breaking read lights.

I would add the cameras and extend the orange phase of the sequence by 1 to 2 seconds to give better warning.

The orange phase should be longer on roads that are >50km/h in my opinion anyway.

11-02-2019 1:08pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it was also just a non-statistically based reaction by some local politicians in a particular city because some of their constituents were annoyed with getting tickets for breaking read lights.

I would add the cameras and extend the orange phase of the sequence by 1 to 2 seconds to give better warning.

The orange phase should be longer on roads that are >50km/h in my opinion anyway.

The amber time is already based on the speed limit of that road.
A longer amber would be of limited use, probably better to use the Russian idea of a flashing green a couple of seconds before the Amber light and remove the pause after the red, that encourages ted light jumping.

jochenstacker · 11-02-2019 10:58pm

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Jesus, imagine the uproar.
"It's too easy to get 12 points and be disqualified"
"Flash for cash cameras at the lights now"
"i had to break the red light"
"The amber wasn't on long enough"
"The car behind me would have rear ended me" - had a pleasant 'discussion' with someone on twitter who said he had to speed at the M7 roadworks because the trucks and buses behind him are speeding and will just rear end him if he doesn't speed. :rolleyes:

etc

Well, I've seen the introduction of the theory test, penalty points, NCT, the RSA, the traffic corps and a drive to make drink driving socially unacceptable.
Some people will piss and moan about it, but they get waved aside and after a year most of them shut up, except for some serious cranks.
All the excuses were already wheeled out for speeding and drink driving and as the campaign said, none of them work.
This could very easily be railroaded through, because any arguments against curbing red light jumping are lost before their proponent even opens their mouth.
I say do it and be utterly Stalinistic about it.

CramCycle · 11-02-2019 11:06pm

Went from Bray into town last Saturday afternoon, no heavy traffic on the way there or the way back but the red light jumping was as bad as rush hour, only one junction had no red light jumpers, and that was because weveryoen made it through before the light changed, it was phenomenal, it really is just the norm nowadays.

Has ignoring red lights gotten a lot worse?

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