30 strong convoy of high altitude aircraft just passed overhead

listermint · 27-03-2020 12:05am

GarIT wrote: »

They are satellites being sent up to provide high speed broadband globally. These are the things making the national broadband plan irrelevant before they start work on it.

Lol for someone with the name IT hailing starlink making fibre broadband to the home irrelevant I'd do some reading. Starlink most definitely has a place in the world and commercially sound.

Replacing Ireland's fibre network isn't it. It's encouraging to see IT people think this way.. not.

Interesting thread though on spotting the starlink train. Thanks OP

bk · 27-03-2020 12:57am

listermint wrote: »

Lol for someone with the name IT hailing starlink making fibre broadband to the home irrelevant I'd do some reading. Starlink most definitely has a place in the world and commercially sound.

Replacing Ireland's fibre network isn't it. It's encouraging to see IT people think this way.. not.

No one is saying replacing existing fiber cable! Where did anyone say that?!

What people are questioning is the NBP, which is the 3 billion plan to bring fibre to rural areas of Ireland. NON of this fibre has been rolled out yet.

Of course that contract for the NBP has been signed, so it is probably too late to do anything about it. While in the end NBP will hopefully deliver high quality broadband to rural Ireland, mark my words, it will be a Childrens Hospital mark 2, likely cost a lot more then 3 billion (which we can't really afford now given COVID19) and likely almost as good service could have been delivered by Starlink for a fraction of the cost of the NBP.

Irish Steve · 27-03-2020 1:30am

For things like streaming movies, maybe, for anything that's interactive, the ping times will be horrific, so very little use for gaming, and not a lot of fun for things like on line banking, or other apps that are interactive. Another aspect is how the uplink will be managed, it's one thing to have high power directional dishes at a main base station, it will be another issue altogether to manage an uplink at a residential level. There's a lot of aspects of the ground station that "have yet to be finalised", which would make me very nervous about their timescales.

air · 27-03-2020 1:51am

Irish Steve wrote: »

For things like streaming movies, maybe, for anything that's interactive, the ping times will be horrific, so very little use for gaming, and not a lot of fun for things like on line banking, or other apps that are interactive. Another aspect is how the uplink will be managed, it's one thing to have high power directional dishes at a main base station, it will be another issue altogether to manage an uplink at a residential level. There's a lot of aspects of the ground station that "have yet to be finalised", which would make me very nervous about their timescales.

Excellent ping times are one of the main motivations for launching this network. These satellites orbit at only 340km altitude, not 35,786 kilometres as for traditional geostationary satellites.

Furthermore light travels a lot quicker in a vacuum than it does in glass (fibre optic cables).

SpaceX expect to make billions selling low latency links to financial institutions to give them an edge in high frequency trading.

Finally the ground station antennas are already designed, they're about the size of a pizza box and use an element array to achieve directionality. They will be low cost and have no moving parts.

Both Wikipedia and Youtube have very good information on how Starlink will work and the advantages it offers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giQ8xEWjnBs

SlowBlowin · 27-03-2020 8:48am

danny004 wrote: »

so how do you know if its the train or a single satellite as there are so many numbers after starlink like starlink -1202
when will it come around again in the evening

Each Spacex launch lofts 60 Starlink satellites in to a "parking orbit". Over the course of the next few weeks the satellites fire their engines and put themselves in their relevant "higher "orbits.

In this period they pass points on earth as a "train", a long line of satellites all following the same orbit. So the trains are only visible as a train during this post launch window, as they gradually disperse and raise their altitude and change position relative to each other.

When using a tracker, such as www.heavens-above.com, you need to select the latest launch, and to see the train in its glory it must be as close to the launch date as possible, each day that passes the satellites get dimmer, and more spread out.

plodder · 27-03-2020 9:24am

When this country was dirt poor we were able to run copper telephone cables the length and breadth of the land, up every laneway no matter how remote. So, I think we should be able to do the same with fibre. I've always believed that the Irish rural settlement pattern is uniquely suited to fibre (unlike truly sparsely populated areas in say US or Australia). And to that extent I support the NBP. The trouble with it is that it's being rushed. It was never feasible before fibre became possible and fibre has only been deployed a few years at this stage here. There's no question that commercial operators would have got around to cover much more of the country with no subsidy required. So, while it is costing us, I think it has to be accepted that fibre is the technology of choice for decades to come, for 99%+ of the country.

Like 3G, 4G, 5G, N+1G is always the next greatest thing in wireless, yet it never delivers the promise of being a replacement for fibre broadband. I'm equally sceptical of the unproven claims made for low orbit satellite systems like this, not with respect to latency, but capacity and scalability.

listermint · 27-03-2020 10:46am

bk wrote: »

No one is saying replacing existing fiber cable! Where did anyone say that?!

What people are questioning is the NBP, which is the 3 billion plan to bring fibre to rural areas of Ireland. NON of this fibre has been rolled out yet.

Of course that contract for the NBP has been signed, so it is probably too late to do anything about it. While in the end NBP will hopefully deliver high quality broadband to rural Ireland, mark my words, it will be a Childrens Hospital mark 2, likely cost a lot more then 3 billion (which we can't really afford now given COVID19) and likely almost as good service could have been delivered by Starlink for a fraction of the cost of the NBP.

The fact you've said this means 100% you dont have a notion of the technologies we are discussing here and their limitations.

Starlink is no substitute for fiber in the ground, in fact its not even fully rolled out. God knows when it will be and it certainly wont be in time to fix our residential problems.

Its almost if everyone is filled with MUSK speak. I like the man but hes not infallible. Starlink has other purposes. providing a WFH option in rural ireland isnt it.

And anyone who is spouting this stuff id really question their credentials on it because its usually coming from urban dwellers with an existing fibre or cable line from EIR or Virgin Media........

Genuine question - Whats your home connection?

SlowBlowin · 27-03-2020 10:58am

I currently pay a premium for a wireless connection to my mountain home. I have tried 3G 4G, I am not in coverage of any other service (LTE etc).

I get about 3 Mbs at the very best, and it will go down during periods of bad weather. Over the past 8 years, fibre has always been 12-24 months away, I don't believe it will every make it up here, based on my experience of a decade of promises that have never been delivered.

For me the Starlink service, if it lives up to its promises, will be fantastic.

I too have concerns about its scaleability, and the possibility of (like other satellite services) being over subscribed, but it seems the way services will be delivered in the future which SpaceX, OneWeb, Amazon and other planning similar constellations.

If spacex get the laser comms working as intended, It will be a misconception that starlink will be slower than fibre, signals in space travel 50% faster than fibre (speed of light in fibre as opposed to speed of light in space), the satellites are very low, for many long paths will be faster over starlink than fibre.

Because of this fact regulatory bodies are looking closely at Starlink, as it could give some automated trading platforms a significant edge when trading over long distances.

bk · 27-03-2020 1:49pm

listermint wrote: »

The fact you've said this means 100% you dont have a notion of the technologies we are discussing here and their limitations.

Mod of the Broadband forum, committee member of IrelandOffLine fighting for Broadband in Ireland for years and I have no idea what I'm talking about!! :rolleyes:

roran · 27-03-2020 3:38pm

bk wrote: »

Though it will likely end up showing the NBP to be horrible value for money. These could have delivered close to the same for a fraction of the cost of the NBP.

bk wrote: »

Mod of the Broadband forum, committee member of IrelandOffLine fighting for Broadband in Ireland for years and I have no idea what I'm talking about!! :rolleyes:

A few years ago I looked into getting broadband from Niall Quinn's Company (- can't now recall their name), but at least they were honest enough to let me know that speeds that they were offering was depending on 'line-of-sight' with the satellite. As we have a fair share of cloud cover, my connection might be occasional on the odd clear day! I decided to opt for 'iffy' 3G mobile!!
What has changed in the interim that NBP will be shown up as 'horrible value'? ...and believe me, I was never in favour of €3 billion, but if it's all we can get in rural Ireland!!

27-03-2020 3:58pm

Quick question, what has broadband and Satellites got to do with aviation ?

listermint · 27-03-2020 4:57pm

bk wrote: »

Mod of the Broadband forum, committee member of IrelandOffLine fighting for Broadband in Ireland for years and I have no idea what I'm talking about!! :rolleyes:

Does being the mod of the forum make you infallible.

What's you BB connection right now.? Who's it with I notice you didn't answer the question.

The fact your here choosing an unproven developing technology over fibre gives me the Willie's about the moderation of that forum

Il answer for you. You've fiber and an i'm alright jack mentality' about spending on fibre for the rest of the country.

listermint · 27-03-2020 5:00pm

SlowBlowin wrote: »

I currently pay a premium for a wireless connection to my mountain home. I have tried 3G 4G, I am not in coverage of any other service (LTE etc).

I get about 3 Mbs at the very best, and it will go down during periods of bad weather. Over the past 8 years, fibre has always been 12-24 months away, I don't believe it will every make it up here, based on my experience of a decade of promises that have never been delivered.

For me the Starlink service, if it lives up to its promises, will be fantastic.

I too have concerns about its scaleability, and the possibility of (like other satellite services) being over subscribed, but it seems the way services will be delivered in the future which SpaceX, OneWeb, Amazon and other planning similar constellations.

If spacex get the laser comms working as intended, It will be a misconception that starlink will be slower than fibre, signals in space travel 50% faster than fibre (speed of light in fibre as opposed to speed of light in space), the satellites are very low, for many long paths will be faster over starlink than fibre.

Because of this fact regulatory bodies are looking closely at Starlink, as it could give some automated trading platforms a significant edge when trading over long distances.

The entire post was a bunch of ifs and buts and whatifs.

Sure I'd love the sun to shine everyday in Ireland but sure look with global warming we might get that in twenty years. If anyone thinks starlink will be fully operational and available to take residential load before fibre is rolled out nationwide il eat my hat.

SlowBlowin · 27-03-2020 5:44pm

listermint wrote: »

The entire post was a bunch of ifs and buts and whatifs.

Sure I'd love the sun to shine everyday in Ireland but sure look with global warming we might get that in twenty years. If anyone thinks starlink will be fully operational and available to take residential load before fibre is rolled out nationwide il eat my hat.

Did you predict the same about Tesla, and SpaceX landing rockets?

It would certainly cost many millions to get fibre to my home, in a way I thing the starlink solution would be better.

Is there someone on the forum where such "hat eating bets" can be documented and also serve as home to any hat eating videos ?

lalababa · 27-03-2020 6:09pm

listermint wrote: »

The entire post was a bunch of ifs and buts and whatifs.

Sure I'd love the sun to shine everyday in Ireland but sure look with global warming we might get that in twenty years. If anyone thinks starlink will be fully operational and available to take residential load before fibre is rolled out nationwide il eat my hat.

With gobal warming you will get rain.

27-03-2020 8:40pm

Any minute now a conversation about airplanes and aviation is going to break out !

L1011 · 27-03-2020 8:44pm

Topic and thread have fatally diverged.

mikhail · 28-03-2020 9:18pm

GarIT wrote: »

They are satellites being sent up to provide high speed broadband globally. These are the things making the national broadband plan irrelevant before they start work on it.

Satellites are only ever going to be a part of the solution, unless you think everyone can accept seconds of lag. There's just more bandwidth in wired solutions too.

Capt'n Midnight · 28-03-2020 9:56pm

OneWeb increases mega-constellation to 74 satellites

Coronavirus: OneWeb blames pandemic for collapse

If no buyer for OneWeb or its assets can be found, the UK government is ultimately responsible for the 74 spacecraft in orbit.

As the licensing state, it will carry the liability if these satellites are involved in a collision.

plodder · 29-03-2020 12:15pm

mikhail wrote: »

Satellites are only ever going to be a part of the solution, unless you think everyone can accept seconds of lag. There's just more bandwidth in wired solutions too.

Though, as pointed out already, these are low earth orbiting (340km) and are claiming lower latency than terrestrial broadband networks, because of shorter distances and the fact that light travels faster through air and a vacuum than in glass. Whether they actually deliver that, remains to be seen. I think there will be a chunk of delay each time a signal passes through one satellite to be relayed on to another and it will depend on the number of hops to be traversed.

deandean · 29-03-2020 12:28pm

Ouch, that's a real pity about Oneweb going bust. IIRC similar happened to Iridium (satellite phones), then someone else bought the system at a big mark-down and it has done well ever since.

Darksoul · 29-03-2020 9:04pm

Just seen a few about 15-20 mins ago.

Hogzy · 30-03-2020 10:32am

Hey folks,

When is the next time (weather dependent obviously) that we will be able to see the starlink train in Dublin? And what direction will I have to look to be able to see it? Sorry for the basic noob question, i'm an absolute astrology idiot! The extent of my abilities involves looking at the SkyView Lite app and pointing out what planet/star is what etc.

Thanks

L-M · 30-03-2020 10:36am

Hogzy wrote: »

Hey folks,

When is the next time (weather dependent obviously) that we will be able to see the starlink train in Dublin? And what direction will I have to look to be able to see it? Sorry for the basic noob question, i'm an absolute astrology idiot! The extent of my abilities involves looking at the SkyView Lite app and pointing out what planet/star is what etc.

Thanks

I signed up for that Starlink sites notifications and it tells you when you can see them.

SlowBlowin · 30-03-2020 10:43am

I provided a link earlier for Heavens Above.

This is the best service by far, you can get a free app for your phone as well which will show you where in the night sky to look in realtime, just hold your phone up in the air.

It also shows all satellites and space debris.

https://www.heavens-above.com/StarlinkLaunchPasses.aspx?lat=53.3498&lng=-6.2603&loc=Dublin&alt=0&tz=GMT

This page shows all passes for Dublin in the next 24 hours, if you click on the time you will see the sky map, if you download the app it will show you in the sky in realtime.

You can change you location tom anywhere.

Hogzy · 30-03-2020 10:52am

SlowBlowin wrote: »

I provided a link earlier for Heavens Above.

This is the best service by far, you can get a free app for your phone as well which will show you where in the night sky to look in realtime, just hold your phone up in the air.

It also shows all satellites and space debris.

https://www.heavens-above.com/StarlinkLaunchPasses.aspx?lat=53.3498&lng=-6.2603&loc=Dublin&alt=0&tz=GMT

This page shows all passes for Dublin in the next 24 hours, if you click on the time you will see the sky map, if you download the app it will show you in the sky in realtime.

You can change you location tom anywhere.

Any idea what that app is called? Cant seem to find anything called heavens above on the app store.

EDIT: App appears to be android only. Sugar!!!!

SlowBlowin · 30-03-2020 10:54am

Hogzy wrote: »

Any idea what that app is called? Cant seem to find anything called heavens above on the app store.

EDIT: App appears to be android only. Sugar!!!!

Yes Android only I am afraid..

Manuel · 30-03-2020 10:58am

How can you tell when it's going to be a *train* of satellites?

I check both heavens-above and the findstarlink websites.
findstarlink had the info below for my location last night (curiously, heavens-above didn't have it):

10:16 pm, 29 Mar 2020
Starlink-4 OLD, BRIGHT (3.3) for 6 mins
Look from WEST to SOUTHWEST (details)
Elevation (from horizon): start: 11°, max: 51°, end: 51°

It was a beautiful clear night and I watched it - a single satellite glowing brightly as it crossed the sky.

.. But how do I identify when it will be a train of satellites, and not just one?

Thanks.

Hogzy · 30-03-2020 10:58am

SlowBlowin wrote: »

Yes Android only I am afraid..

I forked out a mind blowing €2 on the app store for SkyView Premium so hopefully the increased functionality includes the train!

Cheers for the help!

SlowBlowin · 31-03-2020 10:24pm

Manuel wrote: »

How can you tell when it's going to be a *train* of satellites?

I check both heavens-above and the findstarlink websites.
findstarlink had the info below for my location last night (curiously, heavens-above didn't have it):

10:16 pm, 29 Mar 2020
Starlink-4 OLD, BRIGHT (3.3) for 6 mins
Look from WEST to SOUTHWEST (details)
Elevation (from horizon): start: 11°, max: 51°, end: 51°

It was a beautiful clear night and I watched it - a single satellite glowing brightly as it crossed the sky.

.. But how do I identify when it will be a train of satellites, and not just one?

Thanks.

First few weeks following launch, see earlier post.

ps200306 · 01-04-2020 2:11am

Manuel wrote: »

How can you tell when it's going to be a *train* of satellites?

I found the app useless for this. On the website, just check the times of successive passes. If there are lots of passes in a short time, i.e. 30-50 in ten minutes, it's a train.

fryup · 01-04-2020 12:08pm

SlowBlowin wrote: »

It also shows all satellites and space debris.

https://www.heavens-above.com/StarlinkLaunchPasses.aspx?lat=53.3498&lng=-6.2603&loc=Dublin&alt=0&tz=GMT

are those 24hr clock times?

upupup · 01-04-2020 7:55pm

I'm not an expert and new to this so here's what i think
Starlink 5,6 is the latest launch from a few weeks ago so it will be the brightest,its passing tomorrow morning at 6.10am

Starlink 4 passing tonight at 9.52 but its older so dimmer or invisible

here's an easy to follow site with times and live tracking map for the 4 different trainshttps://findstarlink.com/#744;3

A new (bright)train expected to be launched next monthhttps://spaceflightnow.com/launch-schedule/

Big Nasty · 20-04-2020 8:51pm

Good chance of sight tonight around 10pm?

martinr5232 · 20-04-2020 9:06pm

Big Nasty wrote:

Good chance of sight tonight around 10pm?

Any idea what direction ??

fryup · 20-04-2020 9:23pm

southwest to east at 10 deg over the horizon

ps200306 · 20-04-2020 9:25pm

martinr5232 wrote: »

Any idea what direction ??

Look south-south-east from 22.05 to 22.20, about two thirds of the way up the sky (60 degrees elevation). There will be about 45 satellites chasing each other. Go out ten minutes early to adjust your eyes, don't look at bright lights, and don't look at the sunlight in the west.

Water John · 20-04-2020 9:26pm

The Scottish Sun paper is very concerned about how it's going to affect, astrologers???

'The Starlink programme is controversial amongst astrologers, who have slammed the tech billionaire.

They say the satellites get in the way of observations and stop them from viewing the night sky due to the light'

ps200306 · 20-04-2020 9:26pm

fryup wrote: »

southwest to east at 10 deg over the horizon

I'm hoping it's a lot higher that that, unless I've read it wrong. You generally can't see them that low -- I found they have to be above 45 degrees. Are you sure you didn't look at the start times instead of the highest altitude times?

Blazer · 20-04-2020 9:28pm

Water John wrote: »

The Scottish Sun paper is very concerned about how it's going to affect, astrologers???

'The Starlink programme is controversial amongst astrologers, who have slammed the tech billionaire.

They say the satellites get in the way of observations and stop them from viewing the night sky due to the light'

Plus the fact that to actually bring it to every part of the globe requires over 90,000 mins of them. Space is already becoming a mess. Haven’t we made enough down here on planet earth without doing the same above it.

fryup · 20-04-2020 9:36pm

ps200306 wrote: »

I'm hoping it's a lot higher that that, unless I've read it wrong. You generally can't see them that low -- I found they have to be above 45 degrees. Are you sure you didn't look at the start times instead of the highest altitude times?

well i'm getting my info here i don't know how accurate it it