Post RWC

Niallof9 · 17-10-2019 1:09pm

Danthemanhere wrote: »

There's the starting line up 30 and under who definitely could be available for the next world cup. Other players will come in and emerge, some of these will lose form and get injured but we don't need wholesale changes to build for the next world cup. What we do need is a change in game plan.

I reckon there will be loads of more contenders. I'd say in 2015 some of the predictions were way off as well wither through form, not emerging, the undroppables, retirement, leaving or just not good enough. Zebo, Matt Healy, Tyler, McGrath (thought he was a mainstay) ,Ruddock (1st choice by now), Toner (undroppable), Payne, Marshall, the two lads who shall not be named, McCloskey, and a dozen others have come and gone and may come again

2015/2019 vs coming years (under pressure, stalwarts, world class)

Kilcoyne 30 - probably over estimated in 2015 - will be under serious pressure but i like him alot
Scannell 27 - unknown potential - not good enough, Kelleher will overtake him quickly enough i reckon
Furlong 26 - sub in 2015 high hopes - wc
Ryan 23 - whispers - wc, captain
Henderson 27 - known - should be wc
O Mahony 30 - won't be in the conversation by 2023
Van Der Fier 26 - unspoken of - stalwart
Leavy 25 - strong talk, undroppable if injury free, wc
Standar 29 Conan 27 - some talk, stalwarts but under pressure. Serious talent emerging
Murray 30 - wc, still wc but coming to the end by 2023
Carbery 23 - not a whiff - wc by 2023
Stockdale 23 - unknown and now near wc
Aki 29 Farell 26 - spoken of, stalwarts
Ringrose 24 - whispers, people saying Payne was the automatic choice, now wc and future leader
Conway 28 - people thought he was done, Lowe 27 - unknown but both options and potential wc
Larmour 22 - unknown - wc by 2023

So many changes are possible. injuries, retirement, players emerging.

I predict big things for Casey, O'Sullivan, Deegan, Doris, Penny, Wycherley,alex kendellen and have hopes for Milne, Baird, French, Healy, Turner, Hawkshaw but these lads could go the way of Harrison Brewer or do a tadgh Beirne or Conway and take their time. Thats not even including the forgotten lads like Adam Byrne, Dillane, SOB II and such.

Loads of others. Every year we creep away from the bad old days, the hype of the golden generation and the success of mere triple crowns.

Niallof9 · 17-10-2019 1:17pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Farrell is defense coach. He just looks after the defense. A part of the game which has worked well with only 2 tries against this WC

I must have imagined those times he has taken the reigns (through unfortunate circumstance)

He is our defence coach. But in everything but name he is a selector, defence, transition most likely, head coach when Joe wasn't available and Ireland's de facto assistant coach. He's head coach in waiting and he also bears responsibility for this in our wins (which got him the role in the first place) and the losses.

Niallof9 · 17-10-2019 1:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The result on Saturday should be irrelevant if it's all about the process up to this point.

The process in losing to Japan which would have given us an easier path? OF which the outcome resulted in us facing the World Champions? The one we all know that they and we didn't want.

Nothing about any of this is irrelevant. Win or lose there will be changes in the coming 18 months. Guaranteed.

Danthemanhere · 17-10-2019 1:21pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

I reckon there will be loads of more contenders. I'd say in 2015 some of the predictions were way off as well wither through form, not emerging, the undroppables, retirement, leaving or just not good enough.Zebo, Healy, Tyler, Ruddock, Toner, Payne, Marshall, the two lads who shall not be named, McCloskey, and a dozen others have come and gone and may come again

2015/2019 vs 2023 (under pressure, stalwarts, world class)

Kilcoyne 30 - probably over estimated in 2015 - will be under serious pressure but i like him alot
Scannell 27 - unknown potential - not good enough, Kelleher will overtake him quickly enough i reckon
Furlong 26 - sub in 2015 high hopes - wc
Ryan 23 - whispers - wc, captain
Henderson 27 - known - should be wc
O Mahony 30 - won't be in the conversation
Van Der Fier 26 - unspoken of - stalwart
Leavy 25 - strong talk, undroppable if injury free, wc
Standar 29 Conan 27 - some talk, stalwarts but under pressure. Serious talent emerging
Murray 30 - wc, still wc but coming to the end by 2023
Carbery 23 - not a whiff - wc by 2023
Stockdale 23 - unknown and now near wc
Aki 29 Farell 26 - spoken of, stalwarts
Ringrose 24 - whispers, people saying Payne was the automatic choice, now wc and future leader
Conway 28 - people thought he was done, Lowe 27 - unknown but both options and potential wc
Larmour 22 - unknown - wc

So many changes are possible. injuries, retirement, players emerging.

Oh yeah, that's not my prediction for 2023, I think there'll be plenty of new players emerging who'll burst on the sceen by then.

Niallof9 · 17-10-2019 1:27pm

Danthemanhere wrote: »

Oh yeah, that's not my prediction for 2023, I think there'll be plenty of new players emerging who'll burst on the sceen by then.

yeah sorry just re read it. exciting all the same

aloooof · 17-10-2019 1:33pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

POM, Stander, Aki and Murray I doubt will make it to next WC.....

Some wouldn't have had him on the plane for this WC.

aloooof · 17-10-2019 1:52pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

yeah that's a fair point. Yeah if he does well playing the same way, same team again critics like me look foolish. But for me the World Cup trumps anything and he (farrell) has failed if it goes badly on Saturday imo. One way Farrell can redeem himself if the above transpires is by expanding our playbook and looking at new options. If he wins a grand slam doing the same thing, fair enough but i think we'll be right back here in 2023. Maybe even Mike Catt will be announced as the heir.

I just can never understand why Irish rugby can't be a little bold in selection, tactics etc. I want to see guys like Dillane, Byrne, Larmour, Conway, Scannells, Kelleher, Penny, Doris, O'Sullivan, Lowry, Balacounne, Larmour, Tyler, become tried over the coming 24 months, and then some tried and trusted and some even key Irish players. Some of those are fanciful i know. Gibson Park, Butler, Lowe, Deegan and a host of others i'm forgetting. I'm really excited about Irish rugby. And thats on top of World Class players like Henshaw, Healy (still a whipper snapper at 32) Ringrose, Ryan, Furlong, Stander, Murray, Sexton (with age caveat) and the potential World Class ability of Leavy, Joey, Stockdale, Larmour, Porter, Henderson (shouldn't be potential but it hasn't emerged consistently). Then you have the quality internationals of Josh VDF, Beirne. Earls, kearney have been great servants and World class on their day. POM is marmite for me, i know what he adds but i'm not a fan in ability terms, i think he's very lucky to be where he is. He's a great leader and rugby man and will continue to add value. Maybe Zebo comes back. Irish rugby is on an upwards curve. You can see it in the age profile of some of the players emerging. Penny with Leinster, O'Sullivan going over to join Munster. Serious James Ryan like talent.

For me it would be worth a wooden spoon.

I will despair if the 15 taking the field on Saturday is starting the six nations, no matter what happens on Saturday.

I find your posts pretty hard to follow tbh, but I'll try and reply.

You've named:
- 13 players you'd like to see tried over the next 24 months (some of which are in the squad, or have been tried in the past).
- Then another 4, saying you're sure you're forgetting more
- Then 7, who are our World Class players
- Then 6 who are potentially World Class
- Then 2 quality internationals.

Honestly finding it hard to know exactly what you want. Can you name a 23 you'd like to see starting in our 2nd game of then 6 Nations against Wales, say?

The Lost Sheep · 17-10-2019 2:11pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

I reckon there will be loads of more contenders. I'd say in 2015 some of the predictions were way off as well wither through form, not emerging, the undroppables, retirement, leaving or just not good enough. Zebo, Matt Healy, Tyler, McGrath (thought he was a mainstay) ,Ruddock (1st choice by now), Toner (undroppable), Payne, Marshall, the two lads who shall not be named, McCloskey, and a dozen others have come and gone and may come again

2015/2019 vs coming years (under pressure, stalwarts, world class)

Kilcoyne 30 - probably over estimated in 2015 - will be under serious pressure but i like him alot
Scannell 27 - unknown potential - not good enough, Kelleher will overtake him quickly enough i reckon
Furlong 26 - sub in 2015 high hopes - wc
Ryan 23 - whispers - wc, captain
Henderson 27 - known - should be wc
O Mahony 30 - won't be in the conversation by 2023
Van Der Fier 26 - unspoken of - stalwart
Leavy 25 - strong talk, undroppable if injury free, wc
Standar 29 Conan 27 - some talk, stalwarts but under pressure. Serious talent emerging
Murray 30 - wc, still wc but coming to the end by 2023
Carbery 23 - not a whiff - wc by 2023
Stockdale 23 - unknown and now near wc
Aki 29 Farell 26 - spoken of, stalwarts
Ringrose 24 - whispers, people saying Payne was the automatic choice, now wc and future leader
Conway 28 - people thought he was done, Lowe 27 - unknown but both options and potential wc
Larmour 22 - unknown - wc by 2023

So many changes are possible. injuries, retirement, players emerging.

I predict big things for Casey, O'Sullivan, Deegan, Doris, Penny, Wycherley,alex kendellen and have hopes for Milne, Baird, French, Healy, Turner, Hawkshaw but these lads could go the way of Harrison Brewer or do a tadgh Beirne or Conway and take their time. Thats not even including the forgotten lads like Adam Byrne, Dillane, SOB II and such.

Loads of others. Every year we creep away from the bad old days, the hype of the golden generation and the success of mere triple crowns.

scannell is more than good enough and kelleher will not at all easily replace him.
I think Toure overestimating a fair few here and underestimating a lot as well.

Shefwedfan · 17-10-2019 2:13pm

aloooof wrote: »

Some wouldn't have had him on the plane for this WC.

I might have mentioned in haste once about not bringing to WC but he was always going to travel and he should be at the WC.....

Based on his previous games v NZ he was always going to get picked and like Kearney a few seasons ago v NZ I hope he pulls one out of the bag

For the hardship he puts his body through I doubt he will be around in 4 years especially with the players coming up....back row is very hard on the body.....

Shefwedfan · 17-10-2019 2:17pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

I must have imagined those times he has taken the reigns (through unfortunate circumstance)

He is our defence coach. But in everything but name he is a selector, defence, transition most likely, head coach when Joe wasn't available and Ireland's de facto assistant coach. He's head coach in waiting and he also bears responsibility for this in our wins (which got him the role in the first place) and the losses.

I think he might point to the Lions tours which helped him get the job

He was offered a job to return to England a few seasons back, I would expect at that stage it was agreed he would stay with Ireland and take over long term from Joe.

A good move IMO by the IRFU. It's not like the World has an abundance of top quality coachs to take over the role.

Niallof9 · 17-10-2019 2:32pm

Look he's a fantastic coach and loved by the players. Its not his coaching ability in question for me.

Niallof9 · 17-10-2019 2:34pm

aloooof wrote: »

I find your posts pretty hard to follow tbh, but I'll try and reply.

You've named:
- 13 players you'd like to see tried over the next 24 months (some of which are in the squad, or have been tried in the past).
- Then another 4, saying you're sure you're forgetting more
- Then 7, who are our World Class players
- Then 6 who are potentially World Class
- Then 2 quality internationals.

Honestly finding it hard to know exactly what you want. Can you name a 23 you'd like to see starting in our 2nd game of then 6 Nations against Wales, say?

Yeah likewise so we have that in common. I am in work and don't have time to be editing and formatting etc or repeating stuff for people who can't or at least don't want to comprehend simple points/be pedantic over every small detail.

i'm not quoting holy scripture or Macbeth at the globe here i think its pretty clear what i've said. We have the talent, we have the players. Its all small stuff and i have admitted that critics like myself come across as foolish as they are minor enough details.

Summed up we have an abundance of talent. I am very hopeful for that reason. But we need to find a better way of utilizing it without harking back to the past. Called negative Niall on the other forum yet i'm being positive. Just can't win on boards. I remember the shrill calls that i was mad for suggesting Ringrose over Payne back in the day. One of the reasons i went back to lurking.

But if we go out on Saturday and it goes wrong, on top of the season we had and Japan we need to clear the decks, or at least change the rudder, for Andy to put his own stamp/mark on it.Yeah maybe thats the same 15, who knows. And shefwed is right, i probably am being way too harsh on him. Its not as a coach.

I mean people are arguing going with the same 15 on some of the forums. Utter madness. In saying that, yes there isn't massive changes to be made or time if the IRFU go the usual route. 15, 14, 10 (due to age), 8, 6, 2 are all up for grabs imo. Like tried can mean given a shot like Adelokun and Byrne were against some tier 2 team. I'm not saying pick a whole new 15!! Look at the way the All Blacks bring people in and who is left out. We would never in a million years leave out talents like Smith or even Savea.

I'm unsure how thats unclear? Pick one post in isolation fine...

Many of the players i have mentioned are capped, yes i am aware.

I have never blamed the players in any of this current setup. Its a fantastic team. For me only POM is not my cup of tea. But i get the love for him. Missing World class players in SOB, Leavy.

15) Larmour, 14) Conway, 13)GR 12) RH 11) Stockdale 10)JC/JS healthy mix 9)mix again for depth 8)Conan 7)Penny 6) Beirne 5)IH, 4)JR 3)Furlong 2)Kelleher 1)Healy - some fantasy picks i'm aware. But i'm fairly certain Penny, Kelleher, JC will be top internationals. Whats to lose? As i said the World Cup trumps 6 nations, november internationals so it looks like we screwed that up. I just cannot keep going on this circle of self defeating prophecy (the same calls made after every world cup - everything is fine) and delusion.

Surely Saturday will put an end to it either way - for the likes of reactionary critics like me or the people hunting down any critics, and looking forward every 4 years or just lauding local stuff. I hope its the latter that wins out and people remind me of my posts.

aloooof · 17-10-2019 2:48pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yeah likewise so we have that in common. I am in work and don't have time to be editing and formatting etc or repeating stuff for people who can't comprehend or at least want to comprehend simple points/be pedantic over every small detail.

i'm not quoting holy scripture or Macbeth at the globe here i think its pretty clear what i've said. We have the talent, we have the players.

Summed up we have an abundance of talent. I am very hopeful for that reason. Called negative Niall on the other forum yet i'm being positive. Just can't win on boards.

But if we go out on Saturday and it goes wrong, on top of the season we had and Japan we need to clear the decks for Andy to put his own stamp on it. I mean people are arguing going with the same 15 on some of the forums. Utter madness imo.

I'm unsure how thats unclear?

I have never blamed the players in any of this current setup. Its a fantastic team. For me only POM is not my cup of tea. But i get the love for him. Missing World class players in SOB, Leavy.

I feel I've been pretty clear on my position, which remains:

aloooof wrote: »

Imo, there's plenty of time within a 4 year cycle to make changes. It doesn't require wholesale changes from day one.

Imo, you've been unclear as you've just listed a whole raft of players. Again, can you name a 23 you'd like to see starting in our 2nd game of then 6 Nations against Wales? It might give us some indication on how you'd like to see these players introduced alongside the current squad. Or do you literally want a whole new 15?

Niallof9 · 17-10-2019 3:18pm

aloooof wrote: »

I feel I've been pretty clear on my position, which remains:

Imo, you've been unclear as you've just listed a whole raft of players. Again, can you name a 23 you'd like to see starting in our 2nd game of then 6 Nations against Wales? It might give us some indication on how you'd like to see these players introduced alongside the current squad. Or do you literally want a whole new 15?

What constitutes wholesale then?

Thats the 15 i've named - penny, kelleher won't happen i know, so cronin and VDF. Bench hard to say with injuries and form. Mainly i want it picked on form. So if Ruddock out plays POM either in a derby or just in general he should be starting and so forth. Easy enough concept...i know one of the old guard will be on sometime to argue form doesn't matter...but i respectfully disagree. Look who knows what clauses the central contracts have etc.

I don't rate Scannell he's a journeyman in my view, a solid pro.

I want to see 15, 14, backrow and 2 as live options. Hard to argue with the rest for a time.

But some of these lads will be banging down doors soon enough. They are james ryan levels of freakishness.

Makes sense we're in what the 3rd cycle of professional rugby? no more hype or bluster about golden generations or pros...we're at a normal professional level of sports. We have four pro teams with three of them boasting world class facilities, academies and coaching set ups.

Dubinusa · 18-10-2019 2:23am

There's going to be a few additions next year. There's also going to be some subtractions.
Out
Best
Cronin, he's good but has no chance in 23.
Sexton age! He's certainly going to be gone by the next rwc.
Kearney. new blood needed.
Toner, even if healthy, his age works against him.
POM, he's so poor lately.

Possible inclusions
Marshall
Treadwell, if he continues his good form
Deegan, outstanding potential and can play 6

By The autumn series, I think we're going to have 5 or so new players in the team.

Podge_irl · 18-10-2019 3:48am

Niallof9 wrote: »

Look who knows what clauses the central contracts have etc.

If you’re suggesting they mean the player has to play there is no way that is there. The coach picks who he wants - the players he picks most get central contracts. It’s not the other way round. Results are too important to hamstring a coach in any way like that.

Also form just can’t be the only selector. It could potentially play a larger role but you get a lot of flavour of the month campaigns for players who just disappear - it is very possible the head coach of the international team realises this will happen.

18-10-2019 9:20am

Podge_irl wrote: »

If you’re suggesting they mean the player has to play there is no way that is there. The coach picks who he wants - the players he picks most get central contracts. It’s not the other way round. Results are too important to hamstring a coach in any way like that.

Also form just can’t be the only selector. It could potentially play a larger role but you get a lot of flavour of the month campaigns for players who just disappear - it is very possible the head coach of the international team realises this will happen.

Even still, Schmidt did pick on form many times. Remember the Connacht lads on the South Africa tour. Turns out they had a ceiling and didn't last.

Niallof9, you keep saying "things need to change" when Schmidt gave chances to tons of youth and new players over the last four years. You even list them yourself. Penny and Deegan et al will get a look in over the next four years if they are good enough. Deegan for example definitely has promise but has yet to reach the heights for Leinster that his hype implied. There aren't a huge amount of Ireland games. I feel like you're moaning for the sake of moaning. Yeah it's annoying that Ireland lost to Japan. Nobody predicted that though. A team that easily beat Scotland (who almost beat England at home 6 months ago). It isn't that outrageous given how Japan are performing.

Dubinusa · 19-10-2019 3:12pm

Well....... here we are! A new coach and hopefully a new philosophy.
Day 1 of the post Schmidt era.
What kind of rugby will Farrell instill on the squad?
Obviously, some of the lads are not at the level required!
It was a dismal world cup. Murdered by NZ, well beaten by Japan and struggled against Russia.
The prep and game plan are not working and it's time for new ideas and new players!

AbusesToilets · 19-10-2019 3:15pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Even still, Schmidt did pick on form many times. Remember the Connacht lads on the South Africa tour. Turns out they had a ceiling and didn't last.

Niallof9, you keep saying "things need to change" when Schmidt gave chances to tons of youth and new players over the last four years. You even list them yourself. Penny and Deegan et al will get a look in over the next four years if they are good enough. Deegan for example definitely has promise but has yet to reach the heights for Leinster that his hype implied. There aren't a huge amount of Ireland games. I feel like you're moaning for the sake of moaning. Yeah it's annoying that Ireland lost to Japan. Nobody predicted that though. A team that easily beat Scotland (who almost beat England at home 6 months ago). It isn't that outrageous given how Japan are performing.

Dunno about a ceiling, I remember TOH finding the ground and that's about it. Consigned back to the ash heap.

Niallof9 · 19-10-2019 5:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Even still, Schmidt did pick on form many times. Remember the Connacht lads on the South Africa tour. Turns out they had a ceiling and didn't last.

Niallof9, you keep saying "things need to change" when Schmidt gave chances to tons of youth and new players over the last four years. You even list them yourself. Penny and Deegan et al will get a look in over the next four years if they are good enough. Deegan for example definitely has promise but has yet to reach the heights for Leinster that his hype implied. There aren't a huge amount of Ireland games. I feel like you're moaning for the sake of moaning. Yeah it's annoying that Ireland lost to Japan. Nobody predicted that though. A team that easily beat Scotland (who almost beat England at home 6 months ago). It isn't that outrageous given how Japan are performing.

That’s why’s we wended up with Kearney earls and best for example. Look I give up there’s no point trying to convince u guys. I’ve tried for 4 years. I’ve been proven correct but it gives me no pleasure. Good luck with the no form angle.

I’m not moaning for the sake of it at all if u read my post history. Conway in the stands ...an absolute joke

I’m too angry and depressed to continue this never ending debate we will never agree. There’s the anti static one out runners and conservative people like me and then there’s the joe can do no wrong. It’s cool I accept it it’s over. In 24 months we will be looking ok under Lancaster with serious talent like Penny, deegan, jack o Sullivan, Doris, Baird, larmour, and many others

Losing to Japan was unforgivable

JJJackal · 19-10-2019 5:38pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I would expect that this squad from the RWC will stay together into the 6 Nations, after doing so much work together over the summer it would make sense to maximise their return up to that point.
The 2020 tour to Australia with a tier 2 country (Fiji perhaps) would be the next obvious opportunity to try out some new players. I would expect anyone that is not going to feature in the 2021 6 Nations would be let go for that tour and for the Autumn matches.
Rory Best will be gone after this RWC.
Rob Kearney, Sean Cronin, and Johnny Sexton should be left behind next Summer.
Keith Earls and Cian Healy are borderline, would probably leave Earls and take Healy.

So we'd be looking at 2 new hookers, a new 10, a new wing, and a new fullback.

We are most of the way there already really,
Hooker: Scannell, Herring and one other; possibly Rhys Marshall or Bryan Byrne.
10: Carbery, Carty and Byrne
Wing: Stockdale, Conway and one other; Dave Kearney or possibly Darren Sweetnam, Adam Byrne or Robert Baloucoune.
Fullback: Larmour and one other; Addison or possibly Haley.

I can't see Devin Toner or Sean O'Brien getting back into the squad anymore.
Perhaps Dan Leavy can make a miraculous recovery.

There could be a bit of change in the backups in a few positions, for example, Ultan Dillane, Quinn Roux, Gavin Thornbury, or Kieran Treadwell might feature as locks, Finlay Bealham, Marty Moore or Eric O'Sullivan as tight-head props, Jack McGrath or James Cronin as Loose-head props, or back-rows such as Max Deegan, Jack O'Donoghue, Matty Rea or Paul Boyle.

If your leaving out sexton and co you cant be bringing in dave kearney, dev and SOB - same vintage

Dubinusa · 19-10-2019 6:06pm

The future is not so bleak! There are some great prospects coming up!
I think Ruddock should get the 6 shirt. At least until one of Rea, Doris, SOB 2 are ready.
Levy was sorely missed. Hopefully he makes a great comeback
Deegan should be in the mix at 8, as well as Conan.
Marmion must be given his chance, Murray is just not very good right now!
Beirne is also worth a look at 6.
I imagine Treadwell and Thornbury will be close to the squad and possibly Dillane.
There's a lot of options, but relying on the same fellas, no matter how poor they are is nutz.

disposableFish · 19-10-2019 6:54pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Does our style of play change?

This is the only important question.
We saw in 2015 how our lack of creativity sunk us. We failed to recognise this (instead blaming it on injuries), and we saw the same problem today.

By creativity, I specifically mean the ability to create opportunities - making holes in defences by adding complexity that a team can't deal with and playing with enough tempo that they can't fill those holes in time.

This is different to either "moments of magic" from broken-field/turnover plays where opportunities are presented and hopefully you're able to make use of them, or pre-arranged strike-plays.

We should be aim to be good at these too, but the best teams are just too good to allow those moments to happen often enough. It's a recipe for constantly being 4/5th best in the World.

Coach: With the above in mind, Farrell is a bad choice. He's not the type of coach to develop our game. It's doubly bad because we'll be losing a top-quality defence coach.

Players: I think it's kind of the wrong question. We should develop our creativity and then pick the players that suit that. Naming names now is a fun guessing game, but pointless.

Losing: We absolutely have to be more willing to do this. Look at how good NZ are - I fully believe that losing to us (and others) over the last few years have been fundamental to how good they're playing. Truthfully, they were experimenting with either players or style when they lost to us. They don't want to lose, not for a second and you can see how much it cuts them up, but they're willing to risk it.

Donnielighto · 19-10-2019 9:06pm

Two things to focus on should be getting the 4 provincial teams to prioritise skills and decision making, both at speed.

We need players who can get do the simple stuff correctly quickly on automatic. Seems like Joe was doing that at Leinster and then national level but it needs to be the standard way to review how we play. People might say we'd lose power and we would but if eventually you can produce intelligent skillful players reliably as a baseline you can then select the big or fast lads as needs be and still be confident in their output.

That can apply in every sport and every team but it needs the focus to be on long term.

Donnielighto · 19-10-2019 9:09pm

disposableFish wrote: »

This is the only important question.
We saw in 2015 how our lack of creativity sunk us. We failed to recognise this (instead blaming it on injuries), and we saw the same problem today.

By creativity, I specifically mean the ability to create opportunities - making holes in defences by adding complexity that a team can't deal with and playing with enough tempo that they can't fill those holes in time.

This is different to either "moments of magic" from broken-field/turnover plays where opportunities are presented and hopefully you're able to make use of them, or pre-arranged strike-plays.

We should be aim to be good at these too, but the best teams are just too good to allow those moments to happen often enough. It's a recipe for constantly being 4/5th best in the World.

Coach: With the above in mind, Farrell is a bad choice. He's not the type of coach to develop our game. It's doubly bad because we'll be losing a top-quality defence coach.

Players: I think it's kind of the wrong question. We should develop our creativity and then pick the players that suit that. Naming names now is a fun guessing game, but pointless.

Losing: We absolutely have to be more willing to do this. Look at how good NZ are - I fully believe that losing to us (and others) over the last few years have been fundamental to how good they're playing. Truthfully, they were experimenting with either players or style when they lost to us. They don't want to lose, not for a second and you can see how much it cuts them up, but they're willing to risk it.

I disagree, NZ don't get over complicated, the opposite, get your basics and you decisions down across the squad then bring physicality as the last piece, team setup and layout is looked at by them but they just play it simply and don't go overboard.

Don't tend to do overly intricate moves, you'll see them again and again Target and area of the pitch then when the defense adjusts they'll change attack and make ground.

whatawaster · 19-10-2019 9:44pm

My 34 man squad for the 6N

TH - Furlong, Porter, Moore

LH - Healy, Kilcoyne, O'Sullivan

HK - Scannell, Marshall, B Byrne

Lock - J Ryan, Henderson, Dillane, Beirne

Back Row - (Leavy injured) - VDF, Stander, Conan, Deegan, Ruddock, POM

Scrum-Half - Murray, Marmion/McGrath, Gibson-Park

Out-Half - Carbery, Byrne, Carty

Centre - Ringrose, Henshaw, Farrell, Arnold

Back 3 - Larmour, Conway, Stockdale, Addison, Lowry

Niallof9 · 20-10-2019 7:47am

Donnielighto wrote: »

I disagree, NZ don't get over complicated, the opposite, get your basics and you decisions down across the squad then bring physicality as the last piece, team setup and layout is looked at by them but they just play it simply and don't go overboard.

Don't tend to do overly intricate moves, you'll see them again and again Target and area of the pitch then when the defense adjusts they'll change attack and make ground.

Also they had 16 offloads to our 2. Since I was 8 years old any team I’ve been involved in did the pop up from going to deck drill. Look at nz training photos they do it. Reads one is a prime example of execution

We do it training then up in my club we have players admonishing others for offloads

The all blacks move on from dropped offloads

Nothing to do with “dna” as d’arcy once laughably argued

Niallof9 · 20-10-2019 8:01am

Podge_irl wrote: »

If you’re suggesting they mean the player has to play there is no way that is there. The coach picks who he wants - the players he picks most get central contracts. It’s not the other way round. Results are too important to hamstring a coach in any way like that.

Also form just can’t be the only selector. It could potentially play a larger role but you get a lot of flavour of the month campaigns for players who just disappear - it is very possible the head coach of the international team realises this will happen.

Exactly what I’m suggesting. Peter on 550 k or Ruddock on what probably 250k...they will back their investment. It’s a chicken and egg situation at times which came first the central contract or the immovable undroppable player. Like I don’t know how some of the well paid undroppable look at the others in the eye. I’m sure there is tension. People will point to dev....probably on a lower salary as he’s not as marketable and he’s aging. I think it’s a factor you don’t, we will never know. Look at Bowe always making squads right to the bitter end on his 500 k

Move to provincial contracts, private etc. ringfencing 12 guys from a 35 man squad in 2019 is dumb in my opinion. Zebo was snubbed and he thumbed his nose, rightly or wrongly but earls yesterday was making a mockery of his central contract and big bucks.

We also get flavor of the months who never stood a chance. Of course form should play a major part just as it does at lower level.

JJJackal · 20-10-2019 9:55am

whatawaster wrote: »

My 34 man squad for the 6N

TH - Furlong, Porter, Moore

LH - Healy, Kilcoyne, O'Sullivan (not sue O'Sullivan will be there just yet, ? Jack McGrath)

HK - Scannell, Marshall, B Byrne

Lock - J Ryan, Henderson, Dillane, Beirne

Back Row - (Leavy injured) - VDF, Stander, Conan, Deegan, Ruddock, POM

Scrum-Half - Murray, Marmion/McGrath (would go for Marmion), Gibson-Park

Out-Half - Carbery, Byrne, Carty

Centre - Ringrose, Henshaw, Farrell, Arnold (Aki over Arnold - no reason not to have him, very durable and every present (harsh red aside))

Back 3 - Larmour, Conway, Stockdale, Addison, Lowry

I like this squad but would definitely have Aki over Arnold

connachta · 20-10-2019 10:08am

For RWC 2023 we should have 2 decent outhalf backs per provinces. We could, bringing back the 2 Priemiership guys

Ulster : Burns (29) + Herron (27)
Connacht : Carty (31) + C.Fitzgerald (26)
Leinster : Byrne (28) + Sheedy (27)
Munster : Carbery (27) + Bleyendaal (33)

JJJackal · 20-10-2019 10:16am

connachta wrote: »

For RWC 2023 we should have 2 decent outhalf backs per provinces. We could, bringing back the 2 Priemiership guys

Ulster : Burns (29) + Herron (27)
Connacht : Carty (31) + C.Fitzgerald (26)
Leinster : Byrne (28) + Sheedy (27)
Munster : Carbery (27) + Bleyendaal (33)

Doubt you need to bring people back - they are already 2-3 irish outhalves in each province - who will be available at next world cup

Does callum sheedy see himself as Irish btw?
Is herron good enough?

Squidgy Black · 20-10-2019 12:31pm

JJJackal wrote: »

Doubt you need to bring people back - they are already 2-3 irish outhalves in each province - who will be available at next world cup

Does callum sheedy see himself as Irish btw?
Is herron good enough?

Sheedy will be capped by England, he's played underage for both Wales and Ireland, but was called up for England vs the Baa Baas. He was almost locked into Wales at U20s but pulled out last minute against France when he found out. I'd imagine he'll have little to no interest in signing for a province as a second fly half considering he has the starting shirt for Bristol in the premiership at the moment.

Herron didn't work out in Ulster, he was there for 3 seasons, it's just a snap reaction to him playing two good games in the premiership cup. He won't get anywhere close to Marcus Smith.

Zero point in bringing anyone in when you've the likes of Bill Johnston, Harry Byrne, Mike Lowry, Ben Healy coming up through the ranks.

Former Former · 21-10-2019 12:12am

I think this thread is a good reflection of the problem that we have at the moment.

If a number of our current squad are not good enough/over the hill/trading on past glories, that's fair enough... but who are the players straining at the leash waiting to burst into the squad? Who's the guy that we HAVE to see in the next Six Nations? I can't really think of one tbh.

Go back to 2007 and we crashed out in the group stages. There had been some criticism of the exclusion of Heaslip and Kearney, and to a lesser extent Bowe. By the end of the 2008 Six Nations, they were all starters, the following year they were all Lions test starters and were all central to our success over the next few years.

Now, it's a huge ask for any player to hit the levels of Heaslip, Bowe and Kearney... but looking over the names being thrown around on this thread, I'm just not seeing anyone who's appreciably better than anyone who went to Japan or who can force his way into the reckoning from a long way back.

Best guesses at additions to the set-up for 2020 6N are Rhys Marshall, Deegan and Gibson-Park - and none of them get my pulse racing tbh. Decent players but transformative? No.

Dubinusa · 21-10-2019 4:12am

I believe there's a good group scratching the surface.
Paul Boyle for me is probably the one who comes to mind. He's 21. I think he's got a good shout of making the extended squad, or better.
Deegan, clearly he's something special. Speed and great carrying ability. He could crack the squad soon.
Treadwell has been great for Ulster. Athletic and very big. He may be recalled.
Marty Moore was great last year. He's a viable option at back up.
Porter, should he revert to lh?
In the backs, Tom Farrell has been really good.
McCloskey and Gilroy could get another look and Hume may be an option in a year or two.
I also think that Flannery in Munster looks like he could be a future option.
A lot of talent hovering at the gate.

Podge_irl · 21-10-2019 4:44am

Niallof9 wrote: »

Exactly what I’m suggesting. Peter on 550 k or Ruddock on what probably 250k...they will back their investment. It’s a chicken and egg situation at times which came first the central contract or the immovable undroppable player. Like I don’t know how some of the well paid undroppable look at the others in the eye. I’m sure there is tension. People will point to dev....probably on a lower salary as he’s not as marketable and he’s aging. I think it’s a factor you don’t, we will never know. Look at Bowe always making squads right to the bitter end on his 500 k

Move to provincial contracts, private etc. ringfencing 12 guys from a 35 man squad in 2019 is dumb in my opinion. Zebo was snubbed and he thumbed his nose, rightly or wrongly but earls yesterday was making a mockery of his central contract and big bucks.

We also get flavor of the months who never stood a chance. Of course form should play a major part just as it does at lower level.

Why would the coach care what the player is earning? Anyway, central, provincial whatever, they're still all ultimately paid by the IRFU. People put far, far too much weight on the importance of having a central contract.

Podge_irl · 21-10-2019 4:45am

Dubinusa wrote: »

I believe there's a good group scratching the surface.
Paul Boyle for me is probably the one who comes to mind. He's 21. I think he's got a good shout of making the extended squad, or better.
Deegan, clearly he's something special. Speed and great carrying ability. He could crack the squad soon.
Treadwell has been great for Ulster. Athletic and very big. He may be recalled.
Marty Moore was great last year. He's a viable option at back up.
Porter, should he revert to lh?
In the backs, Tom Farrell has been really good.
McCloskey and Gilroy could get another look and Hume may be an option in a year or two.
I also think that Flannery in Munster looks like he could be a future option.
A lot of talent hovering at the gate.

That honestly strikes me as a giant stack of "meh".

whatawaster · 21-10-2019 8:45am

Former Former wrote: »

I think this thread is a good reflection of the problem that we have at the moment.

If a number of our current squad are not good enough/over the hill/trading on past glories, that's fair enough... but who are the players straining at the leash waiting to burst into the squad? Who's the guy that we HAVE to see in the next Six Nations? I can't really think of one tbh.

Go back to 2007 and we crashed out in the group stages. There had been some criticism of the exclusion of Heaslip and Kearney, and to a lesser extent Bowe. By the end of the 2008 Six Nations, they were all starters, the following year they were all Lions test starters and were all central to our success over the next few years.

Now, it's a huge ask for any player to hit the levels of Heaslip, Bowe and Kearney... but looking over the names being thrown around on this thread, I'm just not seeing anyone who's appreciably better than anyone who went to Japan or who can force his way into the reckoning from a long way back.

Best guesses at additions to the set-up for 2020 6N are Rhys Marshall, Deegan and Gibson-Park - and none of them get my pulse racing tbh. Decent players but transformative? No.

A change of approach is definitely needed more than a wholesale change of personnel. We have been left behind by the rest of the world in the last year.

We have the players to play expansive, exciting, creative rugby. Most of the new faces in the squad should be down to natural turnover / retirements.

Niallof9 · 21-10-2019 9:12am

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why would the coach care what the player is earning? Anyway, central, provincial whatever, they're still all ultimately paid by the IRFU. People put far, far too much weight on the importance of having a central contract.

Did i say the coach? I said the IRFU. Also the players of course care. Its definitely a factor. If people say it isn't , well thats is a denial of human society and how life works.

What i'm saying is stop publicly announcing them and keep them provincial..they are being paid anyway by the IRFU.

You had the ludicrous situation of certain players on central deals while being under serious pressure from better less paid individuals. You can't be ringfencing 12 or so individuals anymore. How is that good for a 35 man squad?

I love the way people dismiss these tiny details or suggestions (excuse really) like the changing coach one, but when Joe talks about late buses, lost keycards or what not its sage stuff. It all matters then in this game of inches.

I've also adressed in the other forum in relation to Sexton retiring (which he won't). It extends to sponsors and power etc. Its not as plain as just the contract.

Utah_Saint · 21-10-2019 10:26am

whatawaster wrote: »

A change of approach is definitely needed more than a wholesale change of personnel. We have been left behind by the rest of the world in the last year.

We have the players to play expansive, exciting, creative rugby. Most of the new faces in the squad should be down to natural turnover / retirements.

I tend to agree.

Obviously we aren't gonna play like the AB's after 12months but we can def make a few moves towards that style. Look at how Japan transformed their style.

We have the quality/players. Is it a matter of IRFU enforcing greater focus on skills at each province? I despair every time i see us shovelling the ball along the line. 8 passes later we finally make it to the wing

Niallof9 · 21-10-2019 11:03am

Former Former wrote: »

I think this thread is a good reflection of the problem that we have at the moment.

If a number of our current squad are not good enough/over the hill/trading on past glories, that's fair enough... but who are the players straining at the leash waiting to burst into the squad? Who's the guy that we HAVE to see in the next Six Nations? I can't really think of one tbh.

Go back to 2007 and we crashed out in the group stages. There had been some criticism of the exclusion of Heaslip and Kearney, and to a lesser extent Bowe. By the end of the 2008 Six Nations, they were all starters, the following year they were all Lions test starters and were all central to our success over the next few years.

Now, it's a huge ask for any player to hit the levels of Heaslip, Bowe and Kearney... but looking over the names being thrown around on this thread, I'm just not seeing anyone who's appreciably better than anyone who went to Japan or who can force his way into the reckoning from a long way back.

Best guesses at additions to the set-up for 2020 6N are Rhys Marshall, Deegan and Gibson-Park - and none of them get my pulse racing tbh. Decent players but transformative? No.

I think its more the idea that guys from within take over no? Like Larmour, Conway, Farrell all deserve a try there now. Carbery needs more time. Outside of it its hard to judge as we haven't seen enough. We all know the names but yeah we probably won't see them this six nations. If he brought in future internationsl like Penny, Kelleher, Lowry, O'Sullivan whoever he'd win alot of hearts and minds. I mean the guys you mentioned were in the same boat. Kearney was 19 when he first started getting A games, Heaslip held himself back (i think) for his degree and luke was 19. The same thing has to happen. The guys they were replacing meant the hype was huge for them. This is the new normal so there won't be as much hype for a Penny or French or Doris. Its the way it is.

There was nobody really straining at the leash last time either. Alot of you lads said Payne should be in ahead of Ringrose even when he was outperforming him. Again theres alot of revisionism going on.

jacothelad · 21-10-2019 12:05pm

whatawaster wrote: »

My 34 man squad for the 6N

TH - Furlong, Porter, Moore

LH - Healy, Kilcoyne, O'Sullivan

HK - Scannell, Marshall, B Byrne

Lock - J Ryan, Henderson, Dillane, Beirne

Back Row - (Leavy injured) - VDF, Stander, Conan, Deegan, Ruddock, POM

Scrum-Half - Murray, Marmion/McGrath, Gibson-Park

Out-Half - Carbery, Byrne, Carty

Centre - Ringrose, Henshaw, Farrell, Arnold

Back 3 - Larmour, Conway, Stockdale, Addison, Lowry

That's pretty much the squad going forward if we don't make the decision to refresh it. However, some guys I'd disagree with are O'Sullivan over McGrath until we see how they work out in the same team. Arnold hasn't really moved on much which is a pity. He looked good a while back. I'd have McCloskey ahead of him until he gets back on track and also Luke Marshall.
Lowry isn't within a country mile of the Irish set up. For all his 'talent' he just hasn't cut it ...yet. Also I think Baloucoune looks the replacement for Earls when he is no longer considered. I also think that Rob Lyttle is a bit of a star but the competition is great.

jacothelad · 21-10-2019 12:07pm

connachta wrote: »

For RWC 2023 we should have 2 decent outhalf backs per provinces. We could, bringing back the 2 Priemiership guys

Ulster : Burns (29) + Herron (27)
Connacht : Carty (31) + C.Fitzgerald (26)
Leinster : Byrne (28) + Sheedy (27)
Munster : Carbery (27) + Bleyendaal (33)

Brett Herron plays for Harlequins now and why would he come back. I actually don't think he got a proper chance. Ulster should have made a play for Callum Sheedy years ago.

Movementarian · 21-10-2019 12:10pm

At this point I dont even think we need to massively go nuts with creative rugby.

I would settle for dropping the predictable wrap around off 10 and focus more on simple hands out wide.

Maybe encourage more sniping runs from the 9 and 10 so defenses cant just ignore them and spread out.

Jump_In_Jack · 21-10-2019 12:44pm

JJJackal wrote: »

If your leaving out sexton and co you cant be bringing in dave kearney, dev and SOB - same vintage

You've misread what I'd typed, I said I can't see Toner or O'Brien ever coming back, and I was referring to the immediate post-RWC campaigns.
Dave Kearney could be around for another couple of years, he is only just turned 30 in June.
It remains to be seen who will fill the void if and when Rob Kearney and Keith Earls fade out of the Ireland squad over the next 12-24 months.

Jump_In_Jack · 21-10-2019 12:52pm

The one player that way be a big improvement to this squad could be Aaron Sexton, if he fulfills his promise he could be the best wing we’ve ever produced.

Former Former · 21-10-2019 1:03pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

I believe there's a good group scratching the surface.
Paul Boyle for me is probably the one who comes to mind. He's 21. I think he's got a good shout of making the extended squad, or better.
Deegan, clearly he's something special. Speed and great carrying ability. He could crack the squad soon.
Treadwell has been great for Ulster. Athletic and very big. He may be recalled.
Marty Moore was great last year. He's a viable option at back up.
Porter, should he revert to lh?
In the backs, Tom Farrell has been really good.
McCloskey and Gilroy could get another look and Hume may be an option in a year or two.
I also think that Flannery in Munster looks like he could be a future option.
A lot of talent hovering at the gate.

See this is my point exactly;
McCloskey/Gilroy/Farrell/Treadwell/Moore - these guys are squad filler at best. Marty Moore is maybe the best hope but he's an old-school tight-head when we have Furlong and Porter who can scrummage, carry and win turnovers. The others are significantly worse players than the incumbents in their positions. They won't improve us one iota and if none of the above ever win another cap, I don't think we will lose much.

Boyle looks decent, I don't know anything about Flannery, but are either of them ready to force their way into the reckoning?

Then there's Deegan. It might be unpopular but I don't really see it. He's a good player, no doubt, but who out of POM/Stander/Murphy/Ruddock/Conan is he going to displace?

Honestly, barring some serious breakthrough players emerging, I think we are in for a bit of a lean spell.

whatawaster · 21-10-2019 1:22pm

Former Former wrote: »

Honestly, barring some serious breakthrough players emerging, I think we are in for a bit of a lean spell.

I think we have enough good players still young or in their prime that this shouldn't be the case.

Then there are the players in their late teens/early 20s who are probably going to see massive improvements over the next few years. 4 years ago VDF, Leavy and Ringrose were just breaking into the Leinster team. Deegan, Doris, Penny etc probably have just as much, if not more, potential.

AdamD · 21-10-2019 1:32pm

Deegan was junior world player of the year. Doris and Penny are top prospects too. Conor O'Brien could breakout this year in the backline at Leinster

ClanofLams · 21-10-2019 1:53pm

With Cronin out, Ronan Kelleher will probably get a chance in Europe, it’s an area of weakness for Ireland at the moment, he could force his way into squad very quickly.

Don’t watch as much as Leinster as many on here but from what I’ve seen, Doris looks like he could be top class. It will be interesting to see who gets no8 for Europe, hope it’s him just to get a better look at him.

Caolin Blade could force his way into match day 23 if he maintains his current form. Unless Murray regains his form in a significant way, he should be dropped for first game of six nations, be it McGrath, Marmion, Blade or JGP who replaces him. Murray Kinsella writing today that fringe players felt they had no chance of getting past the established first XV players no matter what they did. Farrell needs to make clear those days are gone.

Larmour should take over at 15. Could do with finding a few wing options, Ulster have some talented looking wingers even aside from Stockdale.

Change up the style and bring in a few players can put more an optimistic outlook on the future.

partyguinness · 21-10-2019 1:59pm

I think what we see with Ireland stylistically is that they fall between two bar stools so to speak.

You have the NZ, Wales, Argentina (1997 & 2015) and Japans of the world- fast, nippy, more natural ball players.

On the other side you have the SA and England- big, burly brute force with lethal wingers.

Ireland do not fall into either camp. So I believe the the usual reaction and talk about jettisoning players is over blown- it is far deeper than that and a cultural issue that strikes at the root and branch of rugby in this country. Quite simply Irish rugby players are not raised to be natural ball players- you cannot manufacture new players or change that in a few years.

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