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€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

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    #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    And to think that for all those years of Fianna Fáil in power, the Blueshirts liked to promote themselves as the "serious" party of fiscal rectitude in contrast to the "populists" of Fianna Fáil. Ha. What pretensions.

    I suppose as long as they only let a handful of already rich business people (who are absolutely certainly not paying 50%-60% tax on that income to this state) benefit from this enormous "overrun" they'll still feel morally superior than a party which would be "populist" enough to distribute the same overrun across a wider section of the population.


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    #33
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    This needs to be to the PAC and it needs to be heavily audited. It's an off the scale overspend and should be causing all sorts of warning lights go off and flags to be raised about fiscal management.

    This is the kind of thing that lands you in situations where you have to get the IMF in to show you how to count.


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    #34
    jay0109
    Registered Users Posts: 2,669 ✭✭✭jay0109


    buried wrote: »
    Hmmm Anyone in some semblance of authority going to take some responsibility for this?

    Simon Harris was all over the abortion referendum 'win'.
    All he seems to have said about these overruns is that he won't put a price on quality healthcare for children. Quality stuff


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    #35
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    I bet you that this white elephant will open with all sorts of lovely facilities and then it's going to have waiting lists and inadequacies due to constraints around hiring adequate numbers or medical staff to run the services.


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    #36
    jay0109
    Registered Users Posts: 2,669 ✭✭✭jay0109


    And don't forget, the 1.4bn price tag is likely to rise further said Varadkar.
    And it does not include the fit out costs.

    This thing could get close to 2bn yet before the first patient goes in the door


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    #37
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,283 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    The figures never meant anything, they decided where they were putting the hospital sold the lotto rights and had the reports done afterwards.
    It has been a shambles from day one.


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    #38
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    It's madness - no private company could survive with an attitude that the price they were quoted is not worth the paper it's written on. Price the damn job then build the building - if you got your initial sums wrong, that's your own problem.


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    #39
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    jay0109 wrote: »
    Simon Harris was all over the abortion referendum 'win'.
    All he seems to have said about these overruns is that he won't put a price on quality healthcare for children. Quality stuff

    Nothing new there. The aim of all health ministers it to achieve something that does not involve tackling the problems in the HSE because it's like opening a Pandora's box of crazy and unsolvable problems that will destroy you.

    That's why they usually pick a topic like the smoking ban or in this case abortion services all of which are useful things to have done but it allows the HSE to roll on.

    There's a major problem with this and it's only going to be solved by declaring the health system a national mess that has to be solved cross party without political football issues.

    Time after time the HSE manages to sail on and 100% of of political pressure lands on a minister who has only barely has his or her feet under the desk for 10 minutes.

    The result is that ministers for decades have learnt from experience of predecessors that trying to tackle this beast results in it destroying your career and it just rolls on anyway.

    The health system in my opinion is a national crisis and I think it needs to be handled as such until it is working.


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    #40
    Cina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,387 ✭✭✭Cina


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    There are many parents who would be very happy their babies headed out of there with an intact heart , skin that didn't peel off on contact , the clefts in their palates closed so they can feed etc
    I don't think bringing the sick babies into a thread on finances is appropriate to be honest
    I never mentioned sick babies so I really don't see where you're getting that from. It was a joke relating to the cost of the hospital.


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    #41
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I really have to wonder what the point is of spending so much money on this.


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    #42
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Did Dermot Bannon do the initial cost estimate?

    Simon Harris: "I've a budget of €650 million"

    Bannon: "No problem"

    Two months later

    Bannon: "Yeah, it's actually going to be €1.4 billion...."


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    #43
    marvin80
    Registered Users Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭marvin80


    Set to be the world's most expensive medical facility and in a ridiculously unsuitable location - some shambles.


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    #44
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    TBH these kind of projects worldwide overrun the mark but this project overrun is pretty insane and I'd say I would be safe making the prediction that it will be higher than the 1.4 billion mark when it opens in 2022.

    They should have bought HP's former plant in Leixlip. It was built originally for use as a hospital and contained rakes of free space for expansion in the years to come with easier access for people from all over Ireland and ample parking. I believe the asking price was around €50 million.


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    #45
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    Have no doubt this is going to balloon to >1.8 billion by the time it's done. There is no way a hospital should be costing this much. How can building costs alone rise by 350 million since September?


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    #46
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    Cina wrote: »
    I never mentioned sick babies so I really don't see where you're getting that from. It was a joke relating to the cost of the hospital.

    Well what kind of babies are usually in a paeds hospital ? You mentioned the babies getting out of there so it stands to reason they are sick babies . The cost of building the facility has nothing to do with the babies in my opinion


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    #47
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    gandalf wrote: »
    TBH these kind of projects worldwide overrun the mark but this project overrun is pretty insane and I'd say I would be safe making the prediction that it will be higher than the 1.4 billion mark when it opens in 2022.
    Anita Blow wrote: »
    How can building costs alone rise by 350 million since September?
    You see, we don't actually know what the overrun is, or whether costs have actually risen at all.

    The Dermot Bannon comparison is a good one.

    We need to know what the price was at tender.

    Because it wasn't 450m or 650m. Those were terrible estimates thrown out by someone who should be fired. A monkey with a dartboard could have provided better estimates.

    But if the price at tender was €1.4bn, then it's not a cost overrun but a terrible underestimation.

    When I first had a builder and architect look at my extension, they estimated €40k. When the formal tender came in, it was €65k. The final price was €72k.

    Did my extension overrun by €7k or €32k?


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    #48
    manonboard
    Registered Users Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭manonboard


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Well what kind of babies are usually in a paeds hospital ? You mentioned the babies getting out of there so it stands to reason they are sick babies . The cost of building the facility has nothing to do with the babies in my opinion

    Thats a pretty creepy point you are trying to drag. There was no insinuation about sick babies, merely a reflection that for the money we are paying we would to be getting almost super powered babies. No malice was in his statement and you dragging it on is a pretty weird way of interpreting it.


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    #49
    Cina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,387 ✭✭✭Cina


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Well what kind of babies are usually in a paeds hospital ? You mentioned the babies getting out of there so it stands to reason they are sick babies . The cost of building the facility has nothing to do with the babies in my opinion
    It's also a maternity hospital.

    When I made that post I didn't even think of sick babies, however that's somehow what you're deducing from what I'm saying, which was simply a joke about the financial cost of the hospital. I think that speaks more about you than me. You seem a bit too eager to jump on what someone says and claim they're being inappropriate. My post was a joke with no malice toward anyone, I suggest you lighten up and stop fishing for things that don't exist. Quite frankly it's insulting for someone to insinuate that I'm making a joke at the expense of ill children in the first place.


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    #50
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    This is also the the problem though.

    A gross overspend is not going to achieve better services. It will achieve a white elephant and constrained sercives due to lack of budget putting pressure on in other areas.

    Emotive arguments don't take away from the fact that this has been at best absolute chaos from day one.

    I mean I could stand here and burn 500 million euro and say it's for the health budget and I can assure you that will not help sick children. It will actually take money away from them.

    The reality of this is if you keep changing the specifications for a large piece of infrastructure it will double and triple in build cost. We had every well meaning lobbyist jumping on the bandwagon and they all suddenly were world experts on hospital location.

    We then had the whole project scrapped and redesigned and there was all sorts of other crazy things done in the middle.

    This isn't a garden shed. It's a very complex healthcare facility.

    What happened was absolutely insane and demonstrates a total lack of management, oversight or accountability.

    Would you rather €1 billion be spent on cardiac facilities for pediatric care or on redesigning the hospital building over and over due to lobby groups and political interests fighting ?


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    #51
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    Cina wrote: »
    It's also a maternity hospital.

    When I made that post I didn't even think of sick babies, however that's somehow what you're deducing from what I'm saying, which was simply a joke about the financial cost of the hospital. I think that speaks more about you than me. You seem a bit too eager to jump on what someone says and claim they're being inappropriate. My post was a joke with no malice toward anyone, I suggest you lighten up and stop fishing for things that don't exist. Quite frankly it's insulting for someone to insinuate that I'm making a joke at the expense of ill children in the first place.
    Its not a maternity hospital actually


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    #52
    Cina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,387 ✭✭✭Cina


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Its not a maternity hospital actually
    It's not but surely that forms a part of it? Perhaps I'm mistaken. Either way my post was clearly only in reference to children that are delivered there.


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    #53
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Deleted User wrote:
    1. Who is going to make the additional profit from this?


    Must check would PP take a bet that close friends of FF and FG are in the mix.


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    #54
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Cina wrote: »
    It's not but surely that forms a part of it? Perhaps I'm mistaken. Either way my post was clearly only in reference to children that are delivered there.
    No, the new maternity hospital is a separate facility, on the opposite side of an incredibly busy city. Critical neonates will have to be stabilised in the maternity hospital before being rushed through the city by ambulance to the children's hospital.

    Yet another reason why the location for the new children's hospital is stupid.


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    #55
    Thatnastyboy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭Thatnastyboy


    EdgeCase wrote: »

    The reality of this is if you keep changing the specifications for a large piece of infrastructure it will double and triple in build cost.


    This, is what's happening. Spec changes & realisation that some original ideas & design intents are unworkable.

    The initial cost estimates probably didn't fully grasp the level of specification & certification that this project is calling for, there has been no other capital projects done to this level in the state before. It is overkill, but the contractor doesn't call up the spec, the design team do.

    Of course every € spent will have an element of profit attached to it, business 101...


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    #56
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Cina wrote: »
    It's not but surely that forms a part of it? Perhaps I'm mistaken. Either way my post was clearly only in reference to children that are delivered there.

    Nope its a separate facility to be built in the grounds of St Vincent’s Hospital.


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    #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    This isn't a garden shed. It's a very complex healthcare facility.

    What happened was absolutely insane and demonstrates a total lack of management, oversight or accountability.

    Would you rather €1 billion be spent on cardiac facilities for pediatric care or on redesigning the hospital building over and over due to lobby groups and political interests fighting ?
    How so? It's a building ffs. It needs pipes and wires. It doesn't need to be architecturally magnificent or significant. It's an absolutely ludicrous amount of money to spend on a not very large building.


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    #58
    mad muffin
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭mad muffin


    Am I reading this right? It has no car park?


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    #59
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    The IMF did not paint a rosy view of Irish public capital management and somehow the state completely ignored the report and spun it into positivity.

    We got a very mediocre rating and it was scathing about some areas, specifically citing the children's hospital project.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/government-ignored-imf-warnings-about-rising-cost-of-children-s-hospital-1.3735660?mode=amp


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    #60
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    seamus wrote: »
    No, the new maternity hospital is a separate facility, on the opposite side of an incredibly busy city. Critical neonates will have to be stabilised in the maternity hospital before being rushed through the city by ambulance to the children's hospital.

    Yet another reason why the location for the new children's hospital is stupid.

    That's not necessarily stupid. As it stands we have neonatology units divided across the city between Temple St, Crumlin and each of the maternity hospitals. NCH will still have a new larger neonate unit which will accommodate mainly surgical neonate cases (due to presence of paediatric surgeons that maternity hospitals lack) and the neonate unit in NMH at Vincents can accommodate medical cases just fine.

    Until the Coombe relocates to James', surgical neonate cases can be anticipated, delivered in the coombe and stabilised there and transferred to NCH at St. James. Once it does relocate, I imagine all surgical neonate cases will be delivered there.


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    #61
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,215 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    And we still have people claiming that the State should be directly involved in the building of social housing.


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