N17 & M18 - Galway to Tuam and rest of Atlantic corridor back on agenda

Sponge Bob · 11-10-2009 10:13pm

2+2 is confusingly called Type 2 by the NRA.

For those coming late to this forum the road North of Sligo is now proposed at 6km of Type 1 ( like the southern N4 approach from Colooney ) and 20km of type 2 further north .

1. Type 1 is fully grade separated with ramps up and down at junctions and hard shoulders too
2. Type 2 ( 2+2) is not always grade separated although it may be at busy junctions. Hard shoulders are anorexic . Therefore the road is narrower.
3. Type 3 was tried and abandoned, also called 2+1 . A road will therefore be 2+2 or Wide Single . The only proper example I ever saw built was in Monaghan with a mickey mouse version south of Mallow.

The Knock Bypass could be converted to 2+2 very easily . 2+2 has no hard shoulder or very narrow hard shoulder .

Pictures of 2+2 here

http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadDesignConstruction/file,11236,en.pdf

Finally we should remember that the reason we have hard shoulders on our single lane roads (unlike the UK) is

1. Feckin Farmers who wanted their tractors on primary routes , and had fields opening off them. The feckers also had a big lobby back then in the IFA .
2. Our cars were ****e in the 1970s when hard shoulders became the norm not the exception ...and often broke down .

By planning and enforcing access limitations we can effectively build 2+2 instead of wide single on main routes . The capacity increase will suffice at all except the busiest times ...eg friday afternoons in summer.

Tech3 · 11-10-2009 10:19pm

I was coming back down the N17/N18 from Sligo to Limerick tonight. The road is a disaster from Tuam to Gort. The traffic was absolutely awful, it took me nearly 2 hours from Tuam to Shannon alone.

When the Gort-Tuam is done it will take 50 mins from Tuam to Shannon.

Seriously this road at the minute is a joke for people outside of the commuter belt.

Sponge Bob · 11-10-2009 10:35pm

tech2 wrote: »

I don't think we need 2+2 for this as the road is sufficient enough as S2 tbh. They would probably ruin the perfect surface that is down as well.

2+2 would mean that you need not hope the car in front pulls in on the hard shoulder for ya

There is no logical reason why standard ( not wide) single lane need not be nearly as good as the Knock Bypass if one were ruthless with L drivers and bloody tractors and set minimum speeds and 'pull aside' requirements like in the states where you must pull in if there are 5 cars queued behind you .....no matter what speed you are doing .

That would be an access controlled standard single lane ( with hard shoulders for 1/2 mile out of every 3 miles for pulling in ) .

It would suffice in many places and is used quite a lot in the UK although most commonly on 1960s and 1970s built roads in my experience...and without hard shoulders or pull in requirements of course.

Let me say that I do not propose such a configuration on the Atlantic corridor but would consider it on the Roscommon section of the N5 that badly needs doing and where AADT is around 5000 and long has been and likely will continue to be .

YES that means that the N5 Charlestown bypass is, in my opinion, slightly too wide for its purpose ( AADT c 5k units) and could have been equally effective with a lower land take. However it was designed to humour tractors and L drivers .

Tech3 · 11-10-2009 10:44pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

There is no logical reason why standard ( not wide) single lane need not be nearly as good as the Knock Bypass if one were ruthless with L drivers and bloody tractors and set minimum speeds and 'pull aside' requirements like in the states where you must pull in if there are 5 cars queued behind you .....no matter what speed you are doing .

That would be an access controlled standard single lane ( with hard shoulders for 1/2 mile out of every 3 miles for pulling in ) .

It would suffice in many places and is used quite a lot in the UK although most commonly on 1960s and 1970s built roads in my experience.

I agree with all your points there. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to be driving along at 80km/hr holding up a lot of traffic. It frustrates drivers and results in dangerous overtaking which sometimes can turn out to be fatal.

The slow lanes can be very effective but even then I encounter too many idiots not pulling into the slow lane. One example is north of Ballinacarrow, they never pull in.

Sponge Bob · 11-10-2009 11:04pm

tech2 wrote: »

The slow lanes can be very effective but even then I encounter too many idiots not pulling into the slow lane. One example is north of Ballinacarrow, they never pull in.

That would be why an Access Controlled S2 Standard with cameras at the beginning of the pullover sections would be very cost effective .

You then know that you can do 100kph steady and if not then you only put up with it for 2.5 miles where they gotta pull in or face a deux points infraction.

National roads should be about doing 100kph steady or 120kph steady for long stretches .

It may further require 2 tiers of secondary road because I could not compare the importance of the N5 to that the N59 in all fairness which has an AADT of 3k west of Oughterard and which serves far fewer people . I would consider Access Restrictions to be overkill on such a road.

Roadsliek the N59 may best be considered as Tier one Regional like the R336 south Connemara Road through Barna .

Now the NRA 'owns' them all it may be time to look into all of these matters with green tinted glasses and with a mind to put inappropiate traffic off National Routes in the National interest .

You will further want electric cars to be able to traverse the state on the one charge , they really dog their batteries unless they can hold a steady speed

. Once a standard electric car can do 400 miles you will need to give them clear 400 mile runs in the national interest seeing as they will take half a day to recharge . Consider it a citizens right to freedom of movement in a small green state

A ****ing electric car would hardly do Tuam Galway and back right now and would probably die slap in the middle of Claregalway at 5pm of a friday

westtip · 11-10-2009 11:43pm

tech2 wrote: »

I was coming back down the N17/N18 from Sligo to Limerick tonight. The road is a disaster from Tuam to Gort. The traffic was absolutely awful, it took me nearly 2 hours from Tuam to Shannon alone.

.

Tis a nightmare and death trap of a road. Drove down it saturday late pm and back at about 10 on Sat night (Sligo - Galway)- it is a mare of road and concur with everything you say Tech.

tech2 wrote: »

I agree with all your points there. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to be driving along at 80km/hr holding up a lot of traffic. It frustrates drivers and results in dangerous overtaking which sometimes can turn out to be fatal.

The slow lanes can be very effective but even then I encounter too many idiots not pulling into the slow lane. One example is north of Ballinacarrow, they never pull in.

I don't know why they use the term "slow lane" in signage it means every pratt toddling along at whatever speed says are thats not for me thats for slow cretins - when they themselves are in fact the slow cretins - signs should say use left hand lane ahead - If you are driving on a road with two lanes and the lane ahead is clear you drive in the left hand lane no matter what speed you are doing - As for the habit many have on our standard single carriageway with wide hard shoulder national roads (such as Knock bypass N17 or Boyle bypass on the N4) of simpy never looking in the rear view mirror to see the traffic behind, and driving along at about 80 kph with their drivers side front wheel about six inches from the central line and enough room for a jugarnaut between them and the road edge on their left - it just baffles me - I just can't stand it! why People can't look in their rear view mirror and realise someone wants to pass and just pull into the unnecessary "hard shoulder" is beyond me! They only have to pull over half way into the hard shoulder - which by the way I would actually cut to half the width it is and provide a soft verge; Ok these driver may have set their cars to autocruise at bang on 98 kph but do you know what its dangerous not to be mindful of the drivers around you .... Mind you one massive danger we have on our national roads with single carriageway and hard shoulder is when roads are upgraded and opened the hard shoulder suddenly becomes the power walkers route to death - I mean why would anyone want to take an evening stroll on for example the Knock by-pass and just how many people do you see walking along the Claremorris/Knock bypass in the hard shoulder two abreast, with only two yards of tarmac and a yellow painted line between them and lorries, buses and motorcars hurtling past at 100 - 120 kph on a national road - What pleasure is there in that? One thing the Greens have got right is their view on proper facilities for pedestrians - I am surprised we don't have more pedestrian deaths on these roads, it only needs a blow out or item falling off a lorry to wipe out someone in an instant. It is simply crazy to use the hard shoulder as a pedestrian routeway - now this is something that needs addressing on all national roads.

Sponge Bob · 23-10-2009 10:35am

....but will those nasty greens give it to them ????

http://www.galwaynews.ie/9244-nra-chief039s-strong-signal-gort-tuam-motorway-still-track

Do remember that land acquisition must be funded in 2010 in order for the construction to commence , some of the land is already bought and fenced off but not all of it by any means . If the fencing does not appear continually over the course of the next year we have a problem .

Building the road itselft thereafter will cost around €250m max and as that is on a PPP the annual cost will be substantially less.

Tony Collins of the National Roads Authority in Galway said that a contractor would be appointed by October next year after which construction of the 57 kilometres of motorway would commence.

“The NRA have been very supportive of this project and I am confident that work will commence before the end of next year”, he said and added that the project would also include the Tuam bypass.

Mr. Collins said that the tendering process was currently under way and that the successful contractor would be appointed based on both a technical and financial perspective.

It is estimated that the Gort to Tuam project, including the Tuam bypass, will cost in the region of €500 million and is expected to commence once the Gort to Crusheen section of the N18 is completed around the middle of next year.

Irish and Proud · 23-10-2009 1:07pm

tech2 wrote: »

I agree with all your points there. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to be driving along at 80km/hr holding up a lot of traffic. It frustrates drivers and results in dangerous overtaking which sometimes can turn out to be fatal.

The slow lanes can be very effective but even then I encounter too many idiots not pulling into the slow lane. One example is north of Ballinacarrow, they never pull in.

...yes, if you can't keep up with the traffic, you've really no business driving - it's dangerous - simple as that. If I had my way, motorways would have a minimum speed of 100kph for cars and 80kph for trucks. On WD2 motorways, the maximum speed limits should be increased to 130kph for cars and 90kph for trucks - if the height for trucks was restricted to 3.65m, is there any real reason why they can't go faster than 80kph on a motorway? As for anyone caught doing 60kph on a motorway for no good reason, it would be a criminal offence, as would be the case with speeds exceeding the limit by 30kph or more (like in France AFAIK). Crawlers and speedsters are reckless drivers - simple as that!

Regards!

Chris_533976 · 23-10-2009 5:37pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

....but will those nasty greens give it to them ????

http://www.galwaynews.ie/9244-nra-chief039s-strong-signal-gort-tuam-motorway-still-track

Do remember that land acquisition must be funded in 2010 in order for the construction to commence , some of the land is already bought and fenced off but not all of it by any means . If the fencing does not appear continually over the course of the next year we have a problem .

Building the road itselft thereafter will cost around €250m max and as that is on a PPP the annual cost will be substantially less.

Good question. Gort to Athenry is CPOed and fenced, not sure about the Athenry to Tuam bit.

KevR · 23-10-2009 5:58pm

Surely if money has been spent on CPOing Gort-Athenry it would be a huge waste/national scandal not to CPO Athenry-Tuam and build the road.

Chris_533976 · 23-10-2009 6:14pm

N11 gap has been CPOed for years

spacetweek · 28-10-2009 5:55pm

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The revised Programme for Government says that the final designs of all 94 planned road projects will be reviewed in the light of falling traffic (!), and environmental and economic circumstances.

Translated, that means that any planned motorways/HQDCs will probably be downgraded to 2+2 standard and any planned 2+2 will probably be downgraded to single-carriageway.

It also seems likely that some of these projects will be dropped, at least for the lifetime of this government.

I'd expect the Gort to Tuam motorway to go ahead though, although it's very unlikely that the M20 will proceed or that most of the proposed 2+2 upgrades to the N17 between Tuam and Collooney and the N15 between Sligo and Co. Donegal will proceed.

This is greatest load of bulls*** I've ever heard. Traffic is falling *very marginally* because we are in a *temporary economic downturn*. When this ends in a year or two, the roads will be needed again.

Does anyone in Gov actually understand the concept of "long term planning"?

Nuttzz · 28-10-2009 6:11pm

spacetweek wrote: »

This is greatest load of bulls*** I've ever heard. Traffic is falling *very marginally* because we are in a *temporary economic downturn*. When this ends in a year or two, the roads will be needed again.

Does anyone in Gov actually understand the concept of "long term planning"?

i feel the dead hand of the greens....

schween · 28-10-2009 6:31pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Does anyone in Gov actually understand the concept of "long term planning"?

This is why our country has so many planning/infrastructure problems. Instead of build it and they will come our govt waits for them to come, then sits about for a few years pondering what to do, then spends a fortune building around them and trying to cope with everybody spread out in an urban/semi-urban mess.

Hopefully it won't be shelved.

marmurr1916 · 29-10-2009 10:26pm

spacetweek wrote: »

This is greatest load of bulls*** I've ever heard. Traffic is falling *very marginally* because we are in a *temporary economic downturn*. When this ends in a year or two, the roads will be needed again.

Does anyone in Gov actually understand the concept of "long term planning"?

Exactly.

Any falls in traffic levels are going to be temporary.

The long-term population figures predict that Ireland will have 5 million people before mid-century, roughly an extra 500,000 people compared to 2009.

That's a hell of a lot of extra traffic...

road_high · 19-11-2009 12:51am

That was an awful accident on the N17 last night, 4 young girls killed. Locals on the news said the road is an absolute blackspot there and there have been numerous serious accident in recent years.

deiseman21 · 19-11-2009 1:54am

bad alright, reactionary comments always are!

Amtmann · 19-11-2009 1:58am

THE NATIONAL Roads Authority has been urged to take immediate action to improve the stretch of road on the Galway-Mayo border where four young students lost their lives in a collision between a car and a truck on Tuesday night.

A fifth student, 21-year-old Michelle O’Donnell, daughter of the RNLI Aran Island lifeboat coxswain, was still in a critical condition in hospital last night, having sustained head and chest injuries.

The four students who died on Tuesday night have been named as Sarah Byrne (20) from Headford, Co Galway; Theresa Molloy (19) from Leitir Móir, Co Galway; Marie Stephanie Ní Conghaíle (19) from Baile na hAbhann, Co Galway; and Sorcha Rose McLoughlin (19) from Mulgannon, Co Wexford.
The driver of a truck involved in the collision in darkness and torrential rain at Carrownurlaur, between Milltown, Co Galway, and Ballindine, Co Mayo, was released yesterday from Mayo General Hospital in Castlebar.

Gardaí in Tuam, Co Galway, are investigating the collision, amid calls from residents living close to the crash location for urgent action to address a very dangerous stretch of road.

The five students studied Irish together at NUI Galway as part of their arts degree. The friends, who had attended Michelle O’Donnell’s 21st birthday party on Inis Mór only a few weeks ago, had been returning from a shopping trip in Sligo when the crash happened at about 7.30pm.
Mayo Fire Service senior assistant fire officer Tony Shevlin said the alert was received at 7.32pm, and fire officers arrived at the scene at 7.47pm, with units from Claremorris and Ballyhaunis, along with the ambulance service and gardaí.

“Three of those in the car were dead so we concentrated on the two who were alive and most in need of assistance. All of them were removed from the scene by 8.24pm,” he said.

The scene was such that at first emergency services believed one of the women had been a passenger in the truck.

Fr Michael Kenny of Kilconly parish was called to give the Last Rites. “I will never forget it. It was a scene of devastation,” he said.
Fr Martin O’Connor of Ballindine parish said the truck driver was badly shocked but was recovering. He said the people of Ballindine had been very distressed at the loss of so many young lives.

Residents living close to the crash area expressed shock at the circumstances of the collision, and said that they had been appealing for years for action to be taken on two dangerous bends – known as Coyne’s Bend and Hernon’s Bend, on the eight kilometre stretch between Ballindine and Milltown.

A total of 20 crashes occurred at the two bends in the last three months according to Mary Hernon, who lives at Musicfield on Hernon’s Bend.
Flowers were still in place at Coyne’s Bend yesterday in memory of a man who lost his life there on August 21st.
“8,000 cars pass here every day between Galway and Sligo, and we have been on to the NRA, the county council and councillors and the gardaí about this most dangerous stretch on the entire N17,” Ms Hernon said. “My sympathies go out to the families of these women, and to the whole population of the university and all those doing exams.”
Ms Hernon said that she and neighbour John Coyne had met on Monday to try to organise a petition about the road. “John Coyne has seen more crashes than anyone in his lifetime and it is so traumatic for those involved and for him also,” she said.

Marita Gibbons, niece of Mr Coyne, said the bend was “dangerous whatever the weather”.
“When it’s dry, people are injured and when it is wet people die,” she said. “This is the second time that this road has been closed for fatalities in the last three months and it is a very eerie feeling.” An NRA spokesman could not be reached for comment.

Mayor of Co Galway Cllr Tom McHugh expressed his sympathies to the families of those who died. The volume of rain had been “unprecedented” on Monday night, he said, and he had never experienced driving conditions like it in Co Galway.

The crash brought to five the number of deaths on Galway roads in a 12-hour period. Sally O’Brien (58), a mother of 12 from Williamstown was driving her five-year-old grand-daughter to school shortly after 9am on Tuesday when her car struck a wall. She was pronounced dead at the scene. Her grand-daughter was treated in hospital.
Supt Marie Skehill, who is leading the investigation into Tuesday night’s collision, appealed for anyone who passed the area between 7.20pm and 8pm to contact Tuam Garda station on 093-70840.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1119/1224259108641.html

Sponge Bob · 19-11-2009 9:17am

There is another bad bend south of Milltown ( at Castletown ) and that was tendered out two years ago

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=SEP091165

Nothing done to it at all whatever they are at

westtip · 19-11-2009 10:20am

nothing will happen as per usual unless we make it happen - the tragic loss of these four girls and others who have lost their lives on this stretch of road would quite simply not have happened if the road was a seamless DC, that is not to say there would be no further accidents but the liklihood of such devastating head ons is vastly diminished. More flowers by the roadside and memorials erected - but no fast tracking of the removal of these death traps claiming the lives of our citizens.

A local resident on TV news referred to the new road coming but that is a long way off; how many more such tragedies are we to witness on the N17 before the big project moves on.

On a wet windy night it is dangerous to drive, and accidents will happen - in these conditions to give people these rally driving country lanes as main arterial routes - then the state has to look at its role in this sorry situation.

Wake up government and start fast tracking these projects before more lives are lost.

KevR · 19-11-2009 12:28pm

Had to drive to Castlebar one night last winter when there was very bad weather. I foolishly took the N84 on the way up as that is the shortest route - it was the worst experience I have ever had driving (aweful road in aweful weather at night). I took the N60 and N17 coming home that night and it wasn't as bad as the N84, but it is still really bad. Spent the whole journey wishing the M/N17 was finished/upgraded.

The M/N17 upgrade will definitely save lives - it will take a good chunk of N84 traffic as well as existing N17 traffic.

murphaph · 19-11-2009 12:59pm

First off, dreadfully sad story.

Anyone got any pics of these bendy bits?

Are they similar to the sandwiched section of N11 which is still twisty S2 with no overtaking for about 6km?

Have the NRA/GCC/MCC at least installed double white lines, no passing signage and good road markings including cat's eyes and hazard signage? Any anti-skid coatings been applied at particular points? What is the speed limit? Is it generally adhered to or broken? Do the Gardai attempt to enforce road traffic law here?

A road being bendy is not automatically going to lead to fatalities. There's a lot more involved! A new DC is a long way off so (as with the N11) remedial measures sound like they need to be taken.

munchkin_utd · 19-11-2009 1:38pm

murphaph wrote: »

<snip>
A road being bendy is not automatically going to lead to fatalities. There's a lot more involved! A new DC is a long way off so (as with the N11) remedial measures sound like they need to be taken.

Have to agree.
What happened here was a head on collision on a national primary route which is plenty wide for 2 trucks to pass.
So, someone was not on their side of the road.
From the picture below, the road is plenty wide for 2 small vehicles to safely pass.

I would see the issue here being simply that the young girls underestimated the corner and took it too fast. In Ireland this is VERY easy to do.
The speed that you take a corner at is completely up to you to determine with your experience and judgment
The girls were only 18/ 19 so the driver was max 2 years driving.
How should they know this was a 50kmh corner? Or a 40kmh in the wet. HOW?

I'd compare this to Germany.
Before any corner on a main road, there is a speed limit specified limit which is appropriate for the bend. So if its 80kmh its a curve, if its 40kmh or less its a bloody bad bend and you'd want to hit the brakes ASAP or you'll be off the road.

I would suggest that Ireland, rather than putting dozens of signs saying "Caution!" or "Bend Ahead!" or "Slow!", they could skip to the chase and simply put an appropriate limit on the section of the road.

How slow is slow? How cautious is cautious? How dangerous is dangerous?
Slap a limit sign with a number on it and you quantify the danger and hopefully save lives.

murphaph · 19-11-2009 1:55pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Have to agree.
What happened here was a head on collision on a national primary route which is plenty wide for 2 trucks to pass.
So, someone was not on their side of the road.
From the picture below, the road is plenty wide for 2 small vehicles to safely pass.

I would see the issue here being simply that the young girls underestimated the corner and took it too fast. In Ireland this is VERY easy to do.
The speed that you take a corner at is completely up to you to determine with your experience and judgment
The girls were only 18/ 19 so the driver was max 2 years driving.
How should they know this was a 50kmh corner? Or a 40kmh in the wet. HOW?

I'd compare this to Germany.
Before any corner on a main road, there is a speed limit specified limit which is appropriate for the bend. So if its 80kmh its a curve, if its 40kmh or less its a bloody bad bend and you'd want to hit the brakes ASAP or you'll be off the road.

I would suggest that Ireland, rather than putting dozens of signs saying "Caution!" or "Bend Ahead!" or "Slow!", they could skip to the chase and simply put an appropriate limit on the section of the road.

How slow is slow? How cautious is cautious? How dangerous is dangerous?
Slap a limit sign with a number on it and you quantify the danger and hopefully save lives.

Agreed. Here in Germany there are countless B roads (equivalent of an N road) with straight sections lined by solid mature trees (no barrier) and 100 limit but when a curve comes upon you the limit drops before it to a safe speed. People die in Germany less frequently than in Ireland and a lot of it has to do with driver education.

I would say one thing however-it's too soon to say who was at fault for this accident. The forces involved can easily throw vehicles 180 degrees out of rotation onto the other side so that picture is not enough to establish responsibility. There's also the possibility of a serious mechanical failure (always unlikely but possible) having lead to a vehicle crossing the centre line.

ardmacha · 19-11-2009 2:47pm

I would suggest that Ireland, rather than putting dozens of signs saying "Caution!" or "Bend Ahead!" or "Slow!", they could skip to the chase and simply put an appropriate limit on the section of the road.

This would be no real help, alas. People who ignore caution signs would also ignore the speed limit sign.

Amtmann · 19-11-2009 2:52pm

murphaph wrote: »

I would say one thing however-it's too soon to say who was at fault for this accident.

Agreed. We should not apportion blame here.

Tech3 · 19-11-2009 3:13pm

Due to the accident I had to take a detour yesterday, a little boreen for about 15km to Balindine.

Whatever caused the accident, this section of the N17 is very poor. From Miltown to Balindine is littered with bad bends and absolutely no overtaking opportunities. I reckon this is the bend that has nearly a 90 degree turn on it with a junction at the south of it.

IMO this stretch of road should really be prioritized after the PPP's. Why sort out the bed? Get the whole stretch done.

munchkin_utd · 19-11-2009 3:58pm

Sorry, i meant to say that I "could" imagine a scenario that such an accident as this could have inexperience/ inability to judge severity of a corner as the root cause rather than I would presume that to be the case.

Of course there could be many other causes.

Nevertheless. A better indication of the severity of a bend could save lives (regardless of whether its really the cause of this accident or not).
A sign saying "Bad Bend" doesnt really say much. A specified speed limit though would indicate precisely the severity of a bend and act as a guide to how you negotiate the corner.

I am only back driving after a break of 9 years so could be again considered inexperienced. On the roads of Germany I find myself driving quite safely, never taking a corner too quick. But then again, how can I if even mild curves have a limit appropriate to the conditions. In Ireland I notice the difference when I the driver have to make a judgement (aka a wild guess) myself at how fast a corner is, how long it is etc. If I feck up, make a bad guess, intrepret bad bend to be "middlin" bad rather than "shockin" bad then heck, I find myself compensating by being on the wrong side of the road.

The best example being on the ring of Kerry when a 100kmh sign was plonked before a horseshoe bend!! Que much heavy braking and a little raised heart beat!

dubhthach · 19-11-2009 4:19pm

I don't know if it's been posted but here's the "preferred route" from Galway County Council site for Tuam to Claremorris, appears to be a type 2 DC (not that it will get built anytime soon)

http://www.galway.ie/en/media/Media,10689,en.pdf

westtip · 19-11-2009 4:33pm

Guys look I don't know about you but perhaps we shouldn't even be talking about the detail of this accident the N17 is death trap he section of the N11 not yet done is the same parts of the N25 the N20 etc N59 and so on - I know I referred to it a few posts back and wish I hadn't now - is there any chance those photos of the carnage could be removed - isn't it bad enough for the poor family to see them on the newspapers and TV without perhaps stumbling on them again on a message board. What do ye all think.

road_high · 19-11-2009 4:59pm

westtip wrote: »

Guys look I don't know about you but perhaps we shouldn't even be talking about the detail of this accident the N17 is death trap he section of the N11 not yet done is the same parts of the N25 the N20 etc N59 and so on - I know I referred to it a few posts back and wish I hadn't now - is there any chance those photos of the carnage could be removed - isn't it bad enough for the poor family to see them on the newspapers and TV without perhaps stumbling on them again on a message board. What do ye all think.

Very true but by highlighting what happened on these blackspots then the NRA and County Councils may be forced to take on board some of the measurea outlined to reduce the risk or eliminate them completely so other families will not have to go through this hell.
Road accidents will alaways happen unfortunatlely as long as humans are involved but a lot can be done to greatly reduce the risk. Much of the drop in road deaths can be I believe put down to the sheer imporvement in sections of our N roads. Parts of the old N7,N8,N11 and especially N1 were awful death traps with many deaths. Now they have been bypassed and accidents have been slashed.

dubhthach · 19-11-2009 5:46pm

mfitzy wrote: »

Much of the drop in road deaths can be I believe put down to the sheer imporvement in sections of our N roads. Parts of the old N7,N8,N11 and especially N1 were awful death traps with many deaths. Now they have been bypassed and accidents have been slashed.

Indeed around 40% of road deaths are due to head on collisions something that is effectively eliminated with proper grade seperated Motorway/DC with crash barriers. It will be interesting to see what happens post 2010, with the interurbans finished then and further road spending slashed due to the recession you would think that there mighten be any further major drops in road deaths from 2011 onwards.

westtip · 19-11-2009 6:06pm

mfitzy wrote: »

Very true but by highlighting what happened on these blackspots then the NRA and County Councils may be forced to take on board some of the measurea outlined to reduce the risk or eliminate them completely so other families will not have to go through this hell.
Road accidents will alaways happen unfortunatlely as long as humans are involved but a lot can be done to greatly reduce the risk. Much of the drop in road deaths can be I believe put down to the sheer imporvement in sections of our N roads. Parts of the old N7,N8,N11 and especially N1 were awful death traps with many deaths. Now they have been bypassed and accidents have been slashed.

Well maybe you are right - the shock factor for our decision makers has to continue - I have just had a bad feeling about this road recently - my daughter is in 2nd year at NUIG and travels this road every other friday and sunday - I had a near miss about four weeks ago on a saturday evening (the night Ireland played Italy), it was p*ssing down and someone overtook coming towards me at about 11.30 pm - the swerve in to save their necks (and mine) was miraculous - and my breaks didn't fail me to stop in a straight line, had I not seen it coming and breaked he woudl have hit me, I wonder how many near misses like this there are everyday - I was sick to the pit of my stomach with this news and seeing those photos again on the thread just got me this afternoon

KevR · 19-11-2009 6:14pm

westtip wrote: »

Well maybe you are right - the shock factor for our decision makers has to continue - I have just had a bad feeling about this road recently - my daughter is in 2nd year at NUIG and travels this road every other friday and sunday - I had a near miss about four weeks ago on a saturday evening (the night Ireland played Italy), it was p*ssing down and someone overtook coming towards me at about 11.30 pm - the swerve in to save their necks (and mine) was miraculous - and my breaks didn't fail me to stop in a straight line, had I not seen it coming and breaked he woudl have hit me, I wonder how many near misses like this there are everyday - I was sick to the pit of my stomach with this news and seeing those photos again on the thread just got me this afternoon

Similar happened to me when coming up from Shannon Airport with my Dad one dark horrible night. We were going around a bad bend on the Crusheen-Gort section and some **** coming the other way was on our side of the road coming straight for us (he was overtaking on a bad bend where there was a solid white line). There was no HS to swerve into so Dad slammed on the brakes and managed to slow enough so that we avoided a smash. Could have easily been killed that night. I know there is no excuse for overtaking on such a bend, you should be banned from driving and/or jailed, but if the Gort-Crusheen section of the M18 had have been open back then, we would not have had that near miss.

kippy · 19-11-2009 6:22pm

KevR wrote: »

Similar happened to me when coming up from Shannon Airport with my Dad one dark horrible night. We were going around a bad bend on the Crusheen-Gort section and some **** coming the other way was on our side of the road coming straight for us (he was overtaking on a bad bend where there was a solid white line). There was no HS to swerve into so Dad slammed on the brakes and managed to slow enough so that we avoided a smash. Could have easily been killed that night. I know there is no excuse for overtaking on such a bend, you should be banned from driving and/or jailed, but if the Gort-Crusheen section of the M18 had have been open back then, we would not have had that near miss.

Kev,
No offence, but theres lots of ifs and buts that have the potential to change our lives on a daily basis. If you hadnt been on the road nothing would have happened, if you were 10 seconds earlier leaving, if he lost power in his car, if he didnt overtake etc etc....

In relation to the crash, i am very familiar with that stretch of road and there have been a number of accidents there in recent times.
One has to remember that at the time of the accident we had one of the worst downpours in a long long time, coupled with the bend and the night time driving conditions. I was shocked when I heard the news and genuinely sadened for all involved in the accident and those poor poor familes whose lives will never be the same again.

The road itself is very very bendy but hundreds of vehicles pass thorugh it daily. The Ballinrobe road in my opinion is a worse state.
After the current round of PPP is over, this and other roads like it should get funding as it is often used and in need of upgrading and as already mentioned would take traffic off the Ballinrobe road also, which too has had a number of accidents in recent years.

KevR · 19-11-2009 6:44pm

kippy wrote: »

Kev,
No offence, but theres lots of ifs and buts that have the potential to change our lives on a daily basis. If you hadnt been on the road nothing would have happened, if you were 10 seconds earlier leaving, if he lost power in his car, if he didnt overtake etc etc....

None taken. I'm just saying the only near miss I have ever had was on a bad stretch of single carriageway road. What we do have the power to do is improve our roads. We can't change the weather, we can't say to ourselves "I won't use that road in case I have a near miss", "I won't drive today in case I have a near miss", "I'll leave 10 seconds earlier so I won't have a near miss".

I am a huge supporter of building new roads, improved safety being one of the main reasons.

black47 · 19-11-2009 6:50pm

kippy wrote: »

Kev,
No offence, but theres lots of ifs and buts that have the potential to change our lives on a daily basis. If you hadnt been on the road nothing would have happened, if you were 10 seconds earlier leaving, if he lost power in his car, if he didnt overtake etc etc....

I don't think that's quite fair. Better roads with grade separations reduce the amount of accidents. Obviously if you're not on the road nothing can happen but we have to be to get around unfortunately. How many near misses are there every day because of unnecessary dangerous corners such as outside milltown. That stretch of the N17 will sit there for another few years before anything is done. It won't be part of the Gort Tuam PPP.

murphaph · 20-11-2009 9:44am

I think people may be a little hard on the NRA etc. here. The pics show an apparently smooth, well surfaced road with clear double white lines and clean and clear hazard signage.

I am deeply sorry for the families of the deceased (my own grandfather was knocked down and killed) but at some point, personal responsibilty has to come into play.

There are roads like this in Germany/UK/France etc. too. Driver education and road traffic law enforcement are the pits in Ireland.

People may not like speed cameras but they work here in Germany. German drivers obey the speed limits to a MUCH greater degree than Irish ones. Even Autobahn road work 40km/h limits at night when no works are taking place are pretty rigidly enforced and observed.

My GF got "blitzed" (they have an actual verb for it) in a 30km/h zone a couple of weeks ago. I was in the passenger seat and just saw the flash. The camera was hidden in an unmarked VW Caddy van and just parked up, running on automatic. This is totally common practice, at least in Berlin/Brandenburg. They also hide cameras in fake wheelie bins if there's a spot they want to target but can't safely park a car up.

My GF was lucky-she was doing 40km/h, another 5km/h and she'd have gotten 2 points but she escaped with a fine. The German system is graduated-just a bit over the limit is a fine and then depending on the severity of the offence, the points increase until you hit the automatic removal of the licence for 2 months/3months/6months and then I believe if you are doing something reallly crazy like 120km/h in a school zone you'll be banned outright and have to resit the test €€€€ and have to do what the Germans call the "Idiotentest" (The Medizinisch-Psychologisch Untersuchung) which is a psychological exam to see if you are fit to return to the wheel! It is notoriously difficult to pass and very expensive (€500 or so). It alone serves as an incentive not to do stupid things on the roads.

I find German driving (in the city) to be stress free as you can predict with a great degree of certainty what everyone else will do. Ireland needs to wake up to the real problems and tackle the shocking skills shortage of Irish drivers (Germans MUST learn in the dark as well as during the daytime and I think they also have to learn in the wet, on a skid pan if needs be). There is no such thing as a provisional licence/learner's permit in Germany-you take lessons from official teachers until you can drive alone, whatever that may cost. The test is almost a formality at that stage.

serfboard · 20-11-2009 7:20pm

In relation to this section of the N17, the point where the accident happened is an almost 90 degree bend, and is particularly dangerous when coming from Sligo (as those poor girls were), as the road dips and bends at the same time.

Yes, there are hazard warnings, and double-white lines, but I have to agree with other posters:

1. There should be no accident black-spots. OK, reality says we don't have the money to fix every one, so priorities can be made easily enough. I would suggest accident black spots on high-volume National Primary Routes, such as the N17, should be among the first to be fixed.

2. Of course, this section of non-hard-shouldered road should be replaced. Which it will be. But that's long-term, unless this terrible accident really will concentrate minds.

3. Like those in Germany, I have seen speed limit signs on bends in New Zealand, so for example, on a 100Km/h road a bend will have a 35km/h limit in large lettering on it. And as others have said, I think this gives a very good indication of how severe a bend actually is. We are making great strides in road safety in this country, with the numbers killed being way down considering that the numbers of cars and drivers on the roads has gone way up. However, this is one thing that should definitely be done ASAP.

DWCommuter · 20-11-2009 10:32pm

"Whoever" was at fault is irrelevant. But "Someone" was at fault. We can blame the NRA, County Councils, Government etc. but (and we have to be honest with ourselves here) they are only part of the reason for accidents like this. I know this road and have driven it many times in wet conditions (on one occasion, I'd driven from Dublin to Millstreet, Co. Cork and then on up to Sligo without a rest!- not good) So we must realise that the main fault in accidents like this lies with the quality of driving.

I agree it wouldn't happen on a wider road or DC, but we cannot build massive roads everywhere in an effort to eliminate bad driving habits. The media have decided to blame the road quality in this particular tragedy, but that is in complete contradiction to its usual stance on driver quality. Its a very sad event, but we must never lose sight of the deplorable standard of driver behaviour in this country. Thats the real killer, not the crappy roads.

westtip · 03-12-2009 12:10pm

Derek I can take your point about driver quality, but I hadn't been down this road since the recent tragedy until yesterday - I noted that approaching the location of the accident (from Sligo) there are a lot more temporary electronic signs warning of bad bends ahead and to slow down - were these put up after the accident?

Going through that bend again - and in the light of what happened recently it really bought to mind just how bloody dangerous it is.

From Sligo a sharp right hand bend, a brow of a hill then down about 30 yards before a right angle left hand bend. It is a akin to a rally course not a national route - those poor girls - on a night like the accident was, it wouldn't take much in terms of loss of concentration to slip across the road at that bend and hit any oncoming vehicle

If this accident isn't a catalyst to get things sorted in the meantime on that bend then I really don't know what the authorities are playing at - I don't think it's acceptable now just to wait the maybe ten years for the dc to come along, Galway Coco and Mayo coco and the NRA need to do something and soon.

Zoney · 04-12-2009 6:24pm

DWCommuter:

Quite frankly, despite the poor quality of driving in this country in general, I do strenously object to your position. I think poor quality roads entirely unsurprisingly do result in lives lost.

While "massive" roads everywhere isn't feasible, I do think we have to *improve* roads (to some degree) *everywhere*. At the very least bring all R and N roads to a reasonable standard, which we are still a very long way away from in general, despite the new motorway network.

Of course funding is in short supply at present, but that is only relevant to arguments as to what *can* be done, not what *should* be done.

Sponge Bob · 07-12-2009 1:40am

They only just reopened ( and resurfaced) this part of the goat track after floods last week.

http://www.galwaynews.ie/10038-man-critical-condition-following-serious-crash-gort

A man is in a critical condition in hospital following a serious two car collision in Gort earlier. The crash happened at around 3 o' clock this afternoon just below the level crossing at Kiltartan.

westtip · 07-12-2009 11:33pm

Has anyone heard what Noel Grealish may be putting on his must have for continued support list:

Just mindful of his previous utterings on N17 and CG bypasss.

Just one example here from three years ago.

http://www.nuachtchlair.com/nlpdf/janfeb07/January%20February%202007%20-%2000001.pdf

Sponge Bob · 08-12-2009 1:15am

westtip wrote: »

Has anyone heard what Noel Grealish may be putting on his must have

Grealish will do a Jackie Healy mystery list that 'must remain confidential' so he can claim credit for absolutely anything and get notified of expenditures on 'ministerial terms' like Jackie does by the whips office.

I have only one thing to say to Grealish while he tries to save himself from the real economy.

westtip · 08-12-2009 11:00am

Sponge I agree these independents like Jackie Healy Rae are a bunch of charlatans and epitomise the very depths of what is bad about our parish pump politics mentality. However if Grealish can seriously bump tne N17 Gort Tuam up the waiting list and maybe a relief road for CG, then at least we will get something from this shambles - I know its my backyard politics and I am being selfish as a better route to Galway would be great for Sligo/Galway travellers....and the sooner the better and less death injuries and misery as well.

Sponge Bob · 08-12-2009 11:33am

Grealish only wants a deal where he can announce on the same terms as Fahey or O Cuiv and gets informed at the same time that the shed roof at Ballymagoo school is to be replaced and can claim credit for it.

That is all.

westtip · 08-12-2009 11:49am

Power is knowledge. I know a teacher in Donegal who got information ahead of pat the cope about some work being done on her school, all the work and lobbying to the DOE had been done on a direct level between the community and the Department. She got the nod and went on local radio and announced the grant; Pat the Cope huffed and puffed and tried to come in claiming credit - he was apparently livid!

Sponge Bob · 08-12-2009 12:02pm

And I know a teacher who had O Cuiv claim credit for a new set of windows she got for her school a full year after they were approved and long after they were installed. His secretary read the YEAR wrong.

westtip · 08-12-2009 12:40pm

I know they really are a pathetic breed.

N17 & M18 - Galway to Tuam and rest of Atlantic corridor back on agenda

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