Dublin’s traffic it’s a two part problem.

tom1ie · 14-12-2018 11:06am #1

Any reading up on Dublin’s transport problems that I do seems to describe Dublin as being gridlocked and that public transport needs to be given priority etc etc.
I agree with this of course, but the more I think about it the more I see there’s actually two problems.
We have commuters from within the m50 and the outer suburbs who are problem 1 that require a good bus service such as bus connects etc.
problem 2 is the commuters coming from satellite towns such as Naas, Balbriggan, bray etc. I think addressing problem 2 would act like a pressure reducing valve on the whole of the traffic problem. Let me explain:
Let’s take the n7, if we built two p+r’s (capacity 2x 5000) at say kill and rathcoole and took a dedicated lane of the n7 and converted it to qbc all the way to the cc we could run frequent express busses into the cc.
Now when I say express i also mean the bus would have to stop at 4 interchange hubs as it approaches the cc. At these interchange hubs there would be an orbital route that allows the person to hop off and change onto another radial route, eg if you live in Naas but work in fonthill industrial park you drive to rathcoole p+r get the cc bus to the outer orbital which is at the outer ring road, and that heads northbound up the outer ring road towards woodies in Lucan, where the n4 radial express intersects with the orbital route.
At these interchanges bike sharing schemes with high quality bike lanes would be positioned to allow people to have an easy cycle within say 5k of their workplace.
Tackling this problem would take 60000 cars off the motorway network in Dublin if you built p+r’s at all radial routes, (m1,n2,n3,n4,n7,n11).
The other 3 orbital routes would be located further on in to the cc at strategic locations that would take in business parks etc.
eventually rail could replace/ compliment the busses going to the p+r’s.

Also to make people use the p+r’s I would place tolls on the cc side of the p+r’s but also encourage tax incentives for parking and pt travel passes if p+r’s were used.

We’ve spent €120m adding an extra lane to the m7 up to the m9 turn off, could we have spent this money more wisely on stopping the cars from coming into Dublin as opposed to making it easier for them?
What do you guys and gals think?

DavyD_83 · 14-12-2018 11:14am

Sounds like it makes sense to me.
I definitely agree that keeping cars out of the city would be the best approach and trying not to make that an additional cost and hassle for the people who need to get in.

Lord Glentoran · 14-12-2018 12:04pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Any reading up on Dublin’s transport problems that I do seems to describe Dublin as being gridlocked and that public transport needs to be given priority etc etc.
I agree with this of course, but the more I think about it the more I see there’s actually two problems.
We have commuters from within the m50 and the outer suburbs who are problem 1 that require a good bus service such as bus connects etc.
problem 2 is the commuters coming from satellite towns such as Naas, Balbriggan, bray etc. I think addressing problem 2 would act like a pressure reducing valve on the whole of the traffic problem. Let me explain:
Let’s take the n7, if we built two p+r’s (capacity 2x 5000) at say kill and rathcoole and took a dedicated lane of the n7 and converted it to qbc all the way to the cc we could run frequent express busses into the cc.
Now when I say express i also mean the bus would have to stop at 4 interchange hubs as it approaches the cc. At these interchange hubs there would be an orbital route that allows the person to hop off and change onto another radial route, eg if you live in Naas but work in fonthill industrial park you drive to rathcoole p+r get the cc bus to the outer orbital which is at the outer ring road, and that heads northbound up the outer ring road towards woodies in Lucan, where the n4 radial express intersects with the orbital route.
At these interchanges bike sharing schemes with high quality bike lanes would be positioned to allow people to have an easy cycle within say 5k of their workplace.
Tackling this problem would take 60000 cars off the motorway network in Dublin if you built p+r’s at all radial routes, (m1,n2,n3,n4,n7,n11).
The other 3 orbital routes would be located further on in to the cc at strategic locations that would take in business parks etc.
eventually rail could replace/ compliment the busses going to the p+r’s.

Also to make people use the p+r’s I would place tolls on the cc side of the p+r’s but also encourage tax incentives for parking and pt travel passes if p+r’s were used.

We’ve spent €120m adding an extra lane to the m7 up to the m9 turn off, could we have spent this money more wisely on stopping the cars from coming into Dublin as opposed to making it easier for them?
What do you guys and gals think?

Or people could use the train services already going from those towns. Infrastructure is already there, only investment needed then is additional trains (which are coming anyway). ‘Busses’ are inherently unreliable once traffic and incomplete bus priority is added to the mix.

salmocab · 14-12-2018 12:16pm

The guy who lives in Naas and works in fonthill would have to be beaten out of his car and tortured before he’d take 2 busses and a bicycle to work.

Your right though in that there are in Dublin terms two types of commuter and we need to deal with both.

tom1ie · 14-12-2018 1:06pm

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Or people could use the train services already going from those towns. Infrastructure is already there, only investment needed then is additional trains (which are coming anyway). ‘Busses’ are inherently unreliable once traffic and incomplete bus priority is added to the mix.

Yes as in the case of the n4, with kishogue railway station (I think it’s still closed), build a p+r their with direct access to the n4 and that’s what I’m talking about. Road and rail pt alternatives to the car. It baffles me that this hasn’t been done.

GreeBo · 14-12-2018 1:12pm

salmocab wrote: »

The guy who lives in Naas and works in fonthill would have to be beaten out of his car and tortured before he’d take 2 busses and a bicycle to work.

Your right though in that there are in Dublin terms two types of commuter and we need to deal with both.

People will use public transport if its faster or easier than driving.
Until it is, why would anyone bother to switch?

salmocab · 14-12-2018 1:17pm

GreeBo wrote: »

People will use public transport if its faster or easier than driving.
Until it is, why would anyone bother to switch?

That was kind of my point, he’d not give up the car for this.

Macy0161 · 14-12-2018 1:30pm

I'd wholeheartedly agree with the OP. I see the same as a solution for the N11. Buses are at capacity, and commercial operators are making a success of routes. What isn't there is the bus priority on the N11, or the park and rides. That, and extra capacity, and lots of cars could be taken off the road. Limited stops at Cherrywood (Luas and Dublin Bus routes), Stillorgan, UCD and City Centre.

I actually think a lot of the anti bus/ proposition that only rail can work is just to kick the can down the road, so "I" don't have to get out of my car.

tom1ie · 14-12-2018 3:45pm

salmocab wrote: »

The guy who lives in Naas and works in fonthill would have to be beaten out of his car and tortured before he’d take 2 busses and a bicycle to work.

Your right though in that there are in Dublin terms two types of commuter and we need to deal with both.

Agreed but he would be pushed out of using his car (stick) by introducing tolls, congestion charge and higher car tax for people with no integrated public transport ticket, and he would be incentivized (carrot) by getting tax credits towards pt ticket, quicker commute times, healthier lifestyle etc.

Skatedude · 17-12-2018 5:35pm

Unfortunately public transport simply isn't an option for so many people, especially around Dublin with it's huge amount of 24/7 shift work.
The idiots still think everyone works 9 to 5 mon to fri. Why use public transport if i still need my car for all of the shifts where there is no public transport available ?

tom1ie · 17-12-2018 9:34pm

Skatedude wrote: »

Unfortunately public transport simply isn't an option for so many people, especially around Dublin with it's huge amount of 24/7 shift work.
The idiots still think everyone works 9 to 5 mon to fri. Why use public transport if i still need my car for all of the shifts where there is no public transport available ?

No doubt there is plenty of shift work around but the vast majority of people work regular hours. That’s kinda proved by the amount of traffic on the road at rush hour.

Eric Cartman · 17-12-2018 9:43pm

salmocab wrote: »

The guy who lives in Naas and works in fonthill would have to be beaten out of his car and tortured before he’d take 2 busses and a bicycle to work.

Your right though in that there are in Dublin terms two types of commuter and we need to deal with both.

+1

This is Ireland, any solution that involves more than 1 bus / train and a 10 minute walk either side is less appealing than driving, even if it means sitting in traffic for 30-40 more minutes, its still more convenient, bikes and multiple busses is too idealistic to persuade anybody. unless those busses cross over in a sheltered warm terminal it would never work, one rainy day and boom everyones back to the loveable car.

Eric Cartman · 17-12-2018 9:46pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Agreed but he would be pushed out of using his car (stick) by introducing tolls, congestion charge and higher car tax for people with no integrated public transport ticket, and he would be incentivized (carrot) by getting tax credits towards pt ticket, quicker commute times, healthier lifestyle etc.

For somebody living in naas , working in sandyford , the additional time waiting on the bus, changing to the luas and getting the luas to sandyford would likely mean driving would have to basically double in price to make it unapealing.

I know im self employed and even if you charged me a 10 euro congestion charge, 50 cents an exit m50 toll and a 5er an hour for parking anywhere in the city, it would still make more financial sense and give me more earning time than any public transit solution.

OldMrBrennan83 · 17-12-2018 9:49pm

GreeBo wrote: »

People will use public transport if its faster or easier than driving.
Until it is, why would anyone bother to switch?

There may be ways of making it faster with a lot of work, but it'll never be easier or more appealing.

tom1ie · 17-12-2018 9:53pm

One thing I do wonder about is do we know where people are actually going on the road. What i mean is how many people who use the m4 corridor go to the cc or sandyford, or swords etc.
that question applies to all the other radial routes. I presume this information is available from the census but it would be interesting to see how many people are going straight to the cc, and therefore these commuters could very easily be serviced by a p+r with frequent bus routes.

salmocab · 17-12-2018 11:03pm

tom1ie wrote: »

One thing I do wonder about is do we know where people are actually going on the road. What i mean is how many people who use the m4 corridor go to the cc or sandyford, or swords etc.
that question applies to all the other radial routes. I presume this information is available from the census but it would be interesting to see how many people are going straight to the cc, and therefore these commuters could very easily be serviced by a p+r with frequent bus routes.

P&R onto a bus even one with great corridors is not appealing to a lot of people. The metro one will be successful but the chances are it won’t affect the M50. It will take the few users who come in from the M1 and go to the sandyford/leopards town area they will be delighted with a single reliable timewise journey.

AndrewJRenko · 17-12-2018 11:06pm

Patww79 wrote: »

There may be ways of making it faster with a lot of work, but it'll never be easier or more appealing.

This may be a bit of a shocker to you, but there are many, many people who choose public transport over driving. They don't want the stress of driving. They're quite happy to be able to do their email or do some browsing or some snoozing on their journey. They're delighted to be able to become a one-car family instead of two, or a no-car family instead of one. It's never been easier to get a car on those occasions that you actually need it.

17-12-2018 11:06pm

Totally agree OP.

I dont drive in as I would be stressed enough dealing with traffic before Id even started work....and I dont have a parking space anyway plus fuel/tolls cost would be more about 4 times what I pay now. I get a commuter bus and M1 is at a standstill around malahide estuary every single morning. Used to be just the odd one but its gotten worse in last 6 months or so.

As for travelling on bus, theres not much in it vs driving but extra time for parking at bus depot etc. I watch netflix and catch up on some zzzz's so happy enough once the traffic is light

Plenty of cars you see only have a driver too, maybe carpool incentives might be helpful too

P_1 · 17-12-2018 11:18pm

Agree wholeheartedly with this idea.

When you cycle around town you can't help but notice how miserable so many people look as they're stuck sat in traffic in their cars. Theres no surprise so many people refer to cars as metal cages. It can't be good for your physical and mental health dealing with the extra stress of driving through the city, particularly after a complex day at work.

Eric Cartman · 17-12-2018 11:21pm

P_1 wrote: »

Agree wholeheartedly with this idea.

When you cycle around town you can't help but notice how miserable so many people look as they're stuck sat in traffic in their cars. Theres no surprise so many people refer to cars as metal cages. It can't be good for your physical and mental health dealing with the extra stress of driving through the city, particularly after a complex day at work.

Do you cycle to work ? Ive only ever heard this from cyclists. In anything bar 20 degrees with a cool breeze on your back, the car is a much more stress free place to be.

P_1 · 17-12-2018 11:25pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Do you cycle to work ? Ive only ever heard this from cyclists. In anything bar 20 degrees with a cool breeze on your back, the car is a much more stress free place to be.

I do. I've heard motorcyclists use the term too.

20 degrees with a slight breeze on the back is oddly too warm at times to be on the bike, give me horizontal rain and a brutal headwind any day of the week. It's good for the soul ðŸ˜‰

Eric Cartman · 17-12-2018 11:32pm

P_1 wrote: »

I do. I've heard motorcyclists use the term too.

20 degrees with a slight breeze on the back is oddly too warm at times to be on the bike, give me horizontal rain and a brutal headwind any day of the week. It's good for the soul &#55357;&#56841;

ill stick to climate controlled seats and a 19 speaker sound system cheers. :pac:

L1011 · 17-12-2018 11:34pm

No car driver who does not use another format uses the cage terminology. Rather pointless bringing it up

P_1 · 17-12-2018 11:34pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

ill stick to climate controlled seats and a 19 speaker sound system cheers. :pac:

Ah different strokes for different folks. Love driving on the open roads, just couldn't be dealing with the stress of driving through the city centre

AndrewJRenko · 18-12-2018 12:12am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

ill stick to climate controlled seats and a 19 speaker sound system cheers. :pac:

I'll stick to halving my cancer risk, and not having to find time for exercise outside of my commute.

Eric Cartman · 18-12-2018 12:14am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'll stick to halving my cancer risk, and not having to find time for exercise outside of my commute.

im pretty sure breathing in all that diesel particle air without a filter vs my pollen filtered air would upset that stat.

AndrewJRenko · 18-12-2018 12:16am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

im pretty sure breathing in all that diesel particle air without a filter vs my pollen filtered air would upset that stat.

Nope, funnily enough, cyclists come out better on fumes too;

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/13/cyclists-exposed-to-less-air-pollution-than-drivers-on-congested-routes-study

Arcade_Tryer · 18-12-2018 2:47am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Do you cycle to work ? Ive only ever heard this from cyclists. In anything bar 20 degrees with a cool breeze on your back, the car is a much more stress free place to be.

The only truly stressful aspect of cycling in the city is the presence of cars, most of which shouldn't be there. It's a vicious cycle.

Working class heroes · 18-12-2018 8:52am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

im pretty sure breathing in all that diesel particle air without a filter vs my pollen filtered air would upset that stat.

Do you drive a diesel car?

OldMrBrennan83 · 18-12-2018 8:56am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

ill stick to climate controlled seats and a 19 speaker sound system cheers. :pac:

Exactly this. Your own space and your own privacy. Heat, call people, listen to what you want, no horrible odours (except your own if you choose :pac:), and just overall comfort.

magicbastarder · 18-12-2018 9:17am

19 speakers? how many ears do you have?

Macy0161 · 18-12-2018 9:18am

salmocab wrote: »

P&R onto a bus even one with great corridors is not appealing to a lot of people.

This is what I don't really believe, and see it as just an excuse. On the N11 corridor, it is already appealing to a lot of people, even with a brutal corridor (bus stuck in the same queues as cars) and BE capacity issues.

Enough for a privateer to make a success of it, and put in their own park and ride for wicklow (Wexford Bus). Enough for several villages on the corridor to have to put parking restrictions to stop unofficial park and rides (e.g. Ashford). It's never been properly proposed and tested imo, with the park and rides, facilities, capacity and frequency.

Cuddlesworth · 18-12-2018 10:29am

Patww79 wrote: »

Exactly this. Your own space and your own privacy. Heat, call people, listen to what you want, no horrible odours (except your own if you choose :pac:), and just overall comfort.

If a public transport was a hour and a car was two, few people would't transfer over.

monkeybutter · 18-12-2018 10:38am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Nope, funnily enough, cyclists come out better on fumes too;

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/13/cyclists-exposed-to-less-air-pollution-than-drivers-on-congested-routes-study

either that article is brain-dead of the original study is

just read it

the longer you commute the more air you inhale

genius

if you have the same time for the commute, the cyclist is slightly higher

and if you happen to breath heavily you might get close too twice the dose over the same period

magicbastarder · 18-12-2018 11:53am

monkeybutter wrote: »

if you have the same time for the commute, the cyclist is slightly higher

yes, but you've gone twice the distance.

the cyclists were by far the fastest, arriving in 11 minutes, half the time of bus and car travellers.

P_1 · 18-12-2018 1:00pm

Exactly, time is money afterall. Cycling is, by a country distance, the quickest and most convenient way of getting around town.

A question for the drivers in town. How much of your working week spent is wasted being sat in a traffic jam?

OldMrBrennan83 · 18-12-2018 1:31pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

If a public transport was a hour and a car was two, few people would't transfer over.

If someone forced me to take a passenger on my commute I'd put the two of us into the hedge.

You need to make other options better rather than aiming for the dystopian options of forcing people to do things.

GreeBo · 18-12-2018 1:56pm

Patww79 wrote: »

There may be ways of making it faster with a lot of work, but it'll never be easier or more appealing.

If its faster then its more appealing for most people, I would say.

AndrewJRenko · 18-12-2018 2:07pm

Patww79 wrote: »

Eric Cartman wrote: »

ill stick to climate controlled seats and a 19 speaker sound system cheers. :pac:

Exactly this. Your own space and your own privacy. Heat, call people, listen to what you want, no horrible odours (except your own if you choose :pac:), and just overall comfort.

Do you ever leave the house Pat? Ever spend time in pubs or shops or cafés or offices?

Twenty Grand · 18-12-2018 2:11pm

P_1 wrote: »

Exactly, time is money afterall. Cycling is, by a country distance, the quickest and most convenient way of getting around town.

A question for the drivers in town. How much of your working week spent is wasted being sat in a traffic jam?

At least you're warm, comfy, and have the radio on.
None of this messing with leaving clothes in work, and having showers. Even wet l, windy miserable weather is grand when you're in a car.

P_1 · 18-12-2018 2:14pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

At least you're warm, comfy, and have the radio on.
None of this messing with leaving clothes in work, and having showers. Even wet l, windy miserable weather is grand when you're in a car.

Don't see an issue with that. A shower in work means it's not coming out of your heating or leccie bill. Also means you're not wasting a fortune on petrol or funding the insurance cartel.

Cycling to work can be a great 2 fingered salute to capitalism at times

magicbastarder · 18-12-2018 2:19pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

At least you're warm, comfy, and have the radio on.
None of this messing with leaving clothes in work, and having showers. Even wet l, windy miserable weather is grand when you're in a car.

i'm enjoying the irony of people contributing to a thread about traffic congestion where they say they won't consider the alternatives which are the cure for congestion.

you want to enjoy the benefits of bringing your three piece suite to work? enjoy sitting in traffic so.

AndrewJRenko · 18-12-2018 2:22pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Nope, funnily enough, cyclists come out better on fumes too;

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/13/cyclists-exposed-to-less-air-pollution-than-drivers-on-congested-routes-study

either that article is brain-dead of the original study is

just read it

the longer you commute the more air you inhale

genius

if you have the same time for the commute, the cyclist is slightly higher

and if you happen to breath heavily you might get close too twice the dose over the same period

Oh it's way more than one study

https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jun/12/children-risk-air-pollution-cars-former-uk-chief-scientist-warns

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-35504768

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/children-exposed-to-a-third-more-toxic-car-fumes-than-adults/

https://airqualitynews.com/2016/02/16/higher-air-pollution-health-risk-inside-car-study-finds/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3818761/amp/Exhaust-fumes-cause-crashes-clogging-drivers-brains-Levels-nitrogen-dioxide-thought-blunt-attention-slow-reaction-times.html

AndrewJRenko · 18-12-2018 2:24pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

P_1 wrote: »

Exactly, time is money afterall. Cycling is, by a country distance, the quickest and most convenient way of getting around town.

A question for the drivers in town. How much of your working week spent is wasted being sat in a traffic jam?

At least you're warm, comfy, and have the radio on.
None of this messing with leaving clothes in work, and having showers. Even wet l, windy miserable weather is grand when you're in a car.

What's the 'messing' of leaving clothes in work? It's just leaving clothes in work.

GreeBo · 18-12-2018 2:25pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Even wet l, windy miserable weather is grand when you're in a car.

The problem still is being in the car when its lovely and sunny and warm and you are still 45 minutes/3km from home.

Twenty Grand · 18-12-2018 2:26pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm enjoying the irony of people contributing to a thread about traffic congestion where they say they won't consider the alternatives which are the cure for congestion.

you want to enjoy the benefits of bringing your three piece suite to work? enjoy sitting in traffic so.

The argument has been done to death many times.
There are definite pros and cons to both approaches and they vary depending on the individual and circumstances.

If you want to get people out of cars you need to offer an alternative that's at least as convenient.
Cycling just isn't that solution, for most people who are commuting into the city centre.
Public transport is that solution, but it's nowhere near as widespread or reliable as it needs to be.

P_1 · 18-12-2018 2:27pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What's the 'messing' of leaving clothes in work? It's just leaving clothes in work.

I know right? Just throw some into a bag on Monday, throw them into it again on Friday. Honestly making a sandwich (if that even counts as messing) would be more hassle.

That being said a venn diagram of people who insist on driving through town and people who live off the Spar deli counter likely resembles a circle

cgcsb · 18-12-2018 3:03pm

Skatedude wrote: »

Unfortunately public transport simply isn't an option for so many people, especially around Dublin with it's huge amount of 24/7 shift work.
The idiots still think everyone works 9 to 5 mon to fri. Why use public transport if i still need my car for all of the shifts where there is no public transport available ?

Given that there is almost no roadspace allocated to buses between the hours of 19:00 and 07:00 I find it difficult to see your point.

cgcsb · 18-12-2018 3:08pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Do you cycle to work ? Ive only ever heard this from cyclists. In anything bar 20 degrees with a cool breeze on your back, the car is a much more stress free place to be.

Err no it definitely isn't. I cycle 5km to work and back again everyday of the year across Dublin City centre despite no cycling infrastructure. Still way quicker and hassle free compared to driving. 20 degrees is very hot weather for cycling, any more than 10 and I'm usually bucketing sweat. The heatwave this year I took the luas a couple of days and/or went in super early when it was cooler.

cgcsb · 18-12-2018 3:18pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

If you want to get people out of cars you need to offer an alternative that's at least as convenient.

well that's not strictly true, the utility of alternative modes just has to be higher than that of the car. That means a combination of improving public transport and also making driving more difficult and/or expensive.

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Cycling just isn't that solution, for most people who are commuting into the city centre.

Also untrue, the vast majority of commutes in Dublin are below 10km in distance, perfect cycling distance. A big barrier to more people choosing cycling is poor infrastructure. This was identified in Copenhagen years ago and the city now has 40% of commutes being done by bike

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Public transport is that solution, but it's nowhere near as widespread or reliable as it needs to be.

Yes public transport needs to be more reliable, best way to do this is take roadspace from cars and allocate it to busses and cycling.

Eric Cartman · 18-12-2018 3:26pm

P_1 wrote: »

Don't see an issue with that. A shower in work means it's not coming out of your heating or leccie bill. Also means you're not wasting a fortune on petrol or funding the insurance cartel.

Cycling to work can be a great 2 fingered salute to capitalism at times

"Save a quid or 2 having a shower in work" , "2 fingered salute to capitalism"

This is the exact kind of lefty hippy craic thats the stereotype of cycling , Ill keep my filthy capitalist traffic sitting ways and paying for my own showers so

Dublin’s traffic it’s a two part problem.

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