Is it a kick in the face for irish people to take Ivor Callely's excuse

Mapsis · 03-06-2010 11:17am #1

Is it maybe a bridge to far for the Irish people to take the excuse "I didn't do anything wrong" in relation to Ivor's claiming of expenses?

I'd just like to pose the question that just because something might not be legally wrong, there is a moral hazard when it comes to this sort of thing and that seems to be left on the platform time and time again when it comes to the matter of political expenses.

It seems to get more far fetched with every new revaltion and are the Irish tax payer's the most gutless bunch of mice on the planet?

My answer would be no cause Irish people are the the finest there are but rather the politicians are maknig the rules up to suit themselves.

Interested to know what 'ya think and if ya can take it?

maynooth_rules · 03-06-2010 11:21am

We should be used to this kind of response. Look back at John O'Donoghues self serving resignation speech and the pathetic attempt by Cooper Flynn to get a standing ovation going at the end of the speech.
Says a lot about the standard and moral respectability of these politicians (generally FF) that this this whole episode and his speech in the Seanad yesterday do not surprise me in the least.

hardCopy · 03-06-2010 11:25am

He may have been within the rules but the rules are a joke.

It's public money, all expenses should be vouched and there should be no 'allowances'.

Are we supposed to believe that these guys are so busy and important that they can't ask for a receipt?

I'd love to see a breakdown of which politicos use the most Oireachtas envelopes too.

seamus · 03-06-2010 11:27am

It's the Irish "cute hoor" culture - if you do something which isn't technically wrong, or if you can find a technicality to avoid being found wrong, then it must be OK.

Despite decades of Roman Catholic oppression we have somehow managed to miss one of the only good messages of the RCC - "Do unto others..."

gandalf · 03-06-2010 11:32am

Politics in this country in the eyes of the people is damaged badly. What Ivor Calleley is doing is wrong and is dragging the reputation of politics event further into the gutter (as if we thought that was possible!).

If Cowan has any leadership qualities at all he would expel Calleley from Fianna Fail and publically demand that he resign. Then again does wee Ivor have something over Brian or others within the inner circles of the soldiers of destiny ?

PeterIanStaker · 03-06-2010 12:08pm

We have been kicked in the face so often and for so long by those we elect to public office, that the Callely incident is water off a ducks back at this stage. We have no pride, spine, self - belief or that ability to translate criticism into action that others have. And this is encouraged by the media because a weak people are easier to rule and control.

Sulmac · 03-06-2010 12:32pm

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

We have been kicked in the face so often and for so long by those we elect to public office, that the Callely incident is water off a ducks back at this stage. We have no pride, spine, self - belief or that ability to translate criticism into action that others have. And this is encouraged by the media because a weak people are easier to rule and control.

What adds insult to injury is that Callely wasn't even elected, he was one of the Taoiseach's nominees.

PeterIanStaker · 03-06-2010 12:45pm

Sulmac wrote: »

What adds insult to injury is that Callely wasn't even elected, he was one of the Taoiseach's nominees.

F*ck that makes it worse:mad:

mike65 · 03-06-2010 12:55pm

/off topic - Gandalf was deadtiger? :eek:

On topic, I really should care and on one level I do but on another, I can't be arsed. I think Callely will get his marching orders though, if only for the sake of the FF party looking good (less bad).

Fuhrer · 03-06-2010 12:56pm

seamus wrote: »

It's the Irish "cute hoor" culture - if you do something which isn't technically wrong, or if you can find a technicality to avoid being found wrong, then it must be OK.

Despite decades of Roman Catholic oppression we have somehow managed to miss one of the only good messages of the RCC - "Do unto others..."

No it ****ing isnt.

Please everyone stop with this utter bull****

"Irish Begrudgers" "Irish Cute Hoor"

This same thing happens everywhere there is a politician with access to an expense account

Pittens · 03-06-2010 12:57pm

It's the Irish "cute hoor" culture

I wonder what caused the English expense scandal then? Is Irishness spreading?

Buford T Justice · 03-06-2010 12:58pm

imo, this is just the typical attitude of FF in its entirety. They feel that they are the power and can do what they like. Even then they think they are answerable to no-one, not even their boss when they are asked to explain themselves. They just look on with a smug grin.

Nice leadership team we have there.

PeterIanStaker · 03-06-2010 1:03pm

mike65 wrote: »

/off topic - Gandalf was deadtiger? :eek:

On topic, I really should care and on one level I do but on another, I can't be arsed. I think Callely will get his marching orders though, if only for the sake of the FF party looking good (less bad).

the way that **** Beverly Cooper Flynn got her marching orders? ie let back in after us goldfish forgot about it?

seamus · 03-06-2010 1:11pm

Pittens wrote: »

I wonder what caused the English expense scandal then? Is Irishness spreading?

The "cute hoor" thing isn't the expense scandal in the first place, it's the reaction to being caught. In the UK, politicians end up resigning or apologising or otherwise looking like complete plebs.

Over here we say, "I didn't do anything wrong" and then refuse to talk about it. Willie O'Dea did the exact same thing until evidence came out to show that he infact *did* do something wrong, and then he resigned.

flutered · 03-06-2010 1:20pm

it is just what i expect from a f.f. politician, and i am not too sure about the other breeds,

stantheman8 · 03-06-2010 1:45pm

Seems like an obvious question?
Like many others posting here I'm enraged to see my hard earned tax euros being siphoned off by these spineless leeches.

I've had enough.
But being angry and not doing something about it doesn't solve anything.

What I'd like to understand is how we stand up to these cheating b@stards and make sure that the government - and indeed all politicians - hear the message, loud and clear that Irish people are sick to the core of the abuse of taxpayers money.

Most obvious choice is not to elect them again - which poses the question if the rest are any better ...but that's another day's work.

I tried leaving a message on Callely's website but, conveniently, that is not possible.

Apart from organising marches on the streets what other options do we have as a public to ensure that this behaviour is dealt with so forcefully that it will put the fear of God in anyone considering pulling cash out of our coffers/pockets in the future?

mike65 · 03-06-2010 1:55pm

Callely of course isn't elected. This will be his last hurrah and then he'll have just the odd pension or three to keep him going.

ART6 · 03-06-2010 2:04pm

This seems to be much more than a solely Irish thing. Look at the wholesale trough feeding frenzy in the European Parliament and Commission, the expenses scandal in the UK and, no doubt those we haven't heard about in other EU countries. It almost appears that throughout much of Europe politicians have evolved into a class that holds it's electorate in thinly veiled contempt. Perhaps that's why the feeling is mutual?

PeterIanStaker · 03-06-2010 2:06pm

Fair play to the citizen http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0603/callelyi.html

Least someone has a spine

Liam Byrne · 03-06-2010 2:10pm

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Least someone has a spine

Obviously not Batt O'Keeffe

Minister for Enterprise and Innovation Batt O'Keeffe has said he understands people's annoyance over Senator Callely's expenses.

However, he said 'generally speaking' deputies and senators incur a lot of expenses due to travel, overnight stays and general daily maintenance.

Does O'Keeffe just not want to get the fact that Callely lives in Dublin ?

peasant · 03-06-2010 2:11pm

The real problem is that cute-hoorism isn't just rampant in Irish politics, it is integral to the whole society.

Almost everybody cheats in some way or another and that's why hardly anyone can stand up with good conscience, point the finger and demand change ...they might get found out themselves.

Best keep shtumm and cheat some more to get your own back.

PeterIanStaker · 03-06-2010 2:14pm

course it wasn't Batt O'Thief. It was someone with a functioning brain.

mike65 · 03-06-2010 2:14pm

Apparently someone called to a copshop but was told it wasn't within their remit.

bigeasyeah · 03-06-2010 2:20pm

Still though,nothing will be done by the Irish people so behaviour like this will continue.
"Ah sure Jaysus,Id hate to complain"
They have us well trained.

Pittens · 03-06-2010 2:26pm

Almost everybody cheats in some way or another and that's why hardly anyone can stand up with good conscience, point the finger and demand change ...they might get found out themselves.

Rubbish.

deanh · 03-06-2010 2:28pm

As this West Cork house is supposed to be a second home, it will be interesting to check if he has paid the €200 levy, or did he claim that on expenses?

Pittens · 03-06-2010 2:32pm

"Ah sure Jaysus,Id hate to complain"

No, nobody ever complains.

bigeasyeah · 03-06-2010 3:51pm

Pittens wrote: »

No, nobody ever complains.

No,nobody ever complains effectually.
e.g:to the barman,partner,friends,on boards etc.

bamboozle · 03-06-2010 3:59pm

deanh wrote: »

As this West Cork house is supposed to be a second home, it will be interesting to check if he has paid the €200 levy, or did he claim that on expenses?

as himself and the wife own a lot of property in Dublin he'll be well aware of the €200 levy, no doubt he used some of the surplus cash received through his expenses.

All political expenses should be vouched.
For instance, Finian McGrath publishes all his expenses on his website, not many other TD's or senator's brave/honest enough to do that.

stantheman8 · 03-06-2010 3:59pm

bigeasyeah wrote: »

No,nobody ever complains effectually.
e.g:to the barman,partner,friends,on boards etc.

Which is why I'm asking:

"Apart from organising marches on the streets what other options do we have as a public to ensure that this behaviour is dealt with so forcefully that it will put the fear of God in anyone considering pulling cash out of our coffers/pockets in the future?"

I've considered contacting my local politician but fear that they are not going to disturb the status quo.
Leaving the country and taking my business elsewhere is another - somewhat extreme - option.

If there were some more effective ways of venting anger then let's pursue them, get some momentum going and try to bring about some real change instead of crying into our pints!

maynooth_rules · 03-06-2010 5:01pm

Is this not simple fraud. Everyone and their dog knows the man lives in Dublin. Could every Dublin TD not simply buy a little cheap shack in Connemara, say that that is their main residence, and essentially rob each tax payer.
All these politicians know what to expect when they run for Leinster House or are elected to the Seanad. Why in gods name should they be given money for turning up to their job, and given travelling expenses. I am a teacher, if i apply for a job in Dublin, I do not get travelling expense, I do not get more money on top of my basic salary for simply turning up to work, I do not get subsidized meals. the system is still rotten to the core, despite the small measures being taken at the moment to restructure the procedures.
But then again, do the electorate punish these politicians. Rest assured JO'D will easily be re-elected in the next election, as will Healey Ray, who is not shy of making the most of these expenses.

nuac · 03-06-2010 5:11pm

Unless Ivor Callely can prove that he was actually living in West Cork each time he claimed expenses from there, he should resign.

If he doesn't resign, Taoiseach should revoke his nomination.

kippy · 03-06-2010 5:17pm

Its a disgrace really that these guys get away with this type of behaviour.
1. This isnt IC's first "disgression". He was "found out" a few years ago. What punishment did he get? Feck all as far as I can see and then a few years later a nice handy call up to the Senate (as far as I know this was a position he was put into by his FF colleagues). What kind of example is that to set to the other citizens of this country?

2. The language he used to "defend" himself is a joke. Anyone out there thinking of committing a crime of ANY description could just look to IC and say to themselves he got away with that, I can do worse and use the same excuses. Its really not a good example to be setting.

3. JoD - this guy takes the biscuit. He gets takes COMPLETE advantage of the job he found himself in and what happens? He loses his "job" - for which I believe he got a "severence" package and STILL keeps his job as a TD and no doubt head of a few committees etc for which he still gets paid and can claim expenses. I never heard whether he paid back what he claimed UNLAWFULLY in expenses.

4. They say there is no "law" to cover these guys and others who have epitomised the Celtic Tiger era but there are many, including this one: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0006.html#partii-sec6
Why hasn the DPP looked into these cases?

5. While many argue that the people who voted these people in (In JoDs case anyway) still need their representation in the Dail, that SHOULD NOT stop these guys from being "Fired" without ANY level of renumeration for gross misconduct. Even if the people "fire" them at the next election, they still get a handsome payoff. A by election could ensure the people are still represented.

6. The recent interviews of J. McDaid from Donegal on his pensions also taught us a thing or two about how these guys things.
He made the point that politicians HAVE to have parachute payments if they lose their seat as they may have no other career to go into if they do lose it. How does he think the rest of us manage when we lose our job? He also made the point that politicians dont have any skills that transfer into the real world. (He is a doctor) Most are ex teachers with their place being held open for them, Solicitors, Publicans and have multiple business interests. These guys know how to cream it and ALL parties exist in this cost cartel at the top. They dont want to see the representation numbers changed, the shrinking of any of the houses or the ACTUAL implementation of FULLY vouched expenses.

7. Bertie Ahern - how often has this guy been in the Dail since he was "demoted" - Fcuk all. What has he been doing on OUR time and with OUR state car an security? Swanning around at his book signing and doing speeches for money at various engagements. I wonder did he manage to set up a bank account for the income that will come as a result of these events?

Sorry, this turned into a general rant but you get the picture. The political culture in this country is out of control, the core of our Public services are just as bad and not a single thing getting done about it.

goose2005 · 04-06-2010 1:00pm

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Fair play to the citizen http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0603/callelyi.html

Least someone has a spine

He should have been expelled from the party after the free paint affair. This isn't FF trying to enforce proper standards, it's just that Ivor has become a liability, especially as his buddy Ahern is gone.

Liam Byrne · 04-06-2010 1:20pm

goose2005 wrote: »

This isn't FF trying to enforce proper standards, it's just that Ivor has become a liability, especially as his buddy Ahern is gone.

FF don't do proper standards......

And unfortunately his buddy Ahern is far from gone, and is still swanning around at our expense.

Anyone who can afford a holiday home doesn't need expenses.

Scofflaw · 04-06-2010 5:56pm

When we want defamatory material, and trash-talking posts where every second word gets starred out by the obscenity filter, we'll be sure to rename the forum.

In the meantime, if I see that kind of rubbish again, people will lose their posting privileges. For the sake of clarity, that's Carlos_Ray, RATM, and Nijmegen I'm talking about.

moderately,
Scofflaw

PCPhoto · 04-06-2010 5:58pm

from reading the RTE article......surprised no-one mentioned this:

Mr Callely's expense claims will be the subject of an investigation by the Select Committee on Members' Interests.

so he's gonna be investigated by his colleagues and co-workers.... that makes me feel very confident that something will be done :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Nijmegen · 04-06-2010 6:02pm

My apologies Scofflaw.

To explain my post in different language, every penny that these guys draw down for themselves - in wonderful salary packets and expenses - that they in fact set for themselves, they are taking money directly from you and from me.

We work hard, show up to work every day and work long hours. We trudge from work to home. At the end of the month, we get a pay packet with tax taken out. Consider that figure. Now consider that every muffen and every cup of coffee these guys claim on their expenses is money that they are taking directly from you. To put it simply, if you're on a tight budget you might consider a coffee and a muffen some morning around 11am, but decide against.

Well, down the road there's a TD or a senator who is spending that money. Your money.

I'm sorry for becoming emotional. But I feel the pain in my pocket every month, acutely. And the way I see it, every penny these guys mispend is stolen money. It's white collar crime. Only they set the rules that says its not.

It's my money. I earned it. I give it to them on the promise that they'll give it back in good services. Instead, they steal it and they waste it and often they deliver half arsed services instead.

aDeener · 04-06-2010 7:18pm

Fuhrer wrote: »

No it ****ing isnt.

Please everyone stop with this utter bull****

"Irish Begrudgers" "Irish Cute Hoor"

This same thing happens everywhere there is a politician with access to an expense account

hey dont get in the way of the generalising of the irish, so long as you dont generalise about others!!

Poochie05 · 05-06-2010 12:36pm

stantheman8 wrote: »

Which is why I'm asking:

"Apart from organising marches on the streets what other options do we have as a public to ensure that this behaviour is dealt with so forcefully that it will put the fear of God in anyone considering pulling cash out of our coffers/pockets in the future?"

I've considered contacting my local politician but fear that they are not going to disturb the status quo.
Leaving the country and taking my business elsewhere is another - somewhat extreme - option.

If there were some more effective ways of venting anger then let's pursue them, get some momentum going and try to bring about some real change instead of crying into our pints!

The simple way is not to vote them back in again. I know this doesn't apply as no one voted for Callely but there's plenty of examples of politicians doing things while not technically illegal, definitely morally wrong and they top the poll in the next election. Until it is culturally unacceptable, these people will continue to think they can get away with it.

simonj · 05-06-2010 1:04pm

Poochie05 wrote: »

The simple way is not to vote them back in again. I know this doesn't apply as no one voted for Callely but there's plenty of examples of politicians doing things while not technically illegal, definitely morally wrong and they top the poll in the next election.
Until it is culturally unacceptable, these people will continue to think they can get away with it.

Well said

Thing is, that Callely is just the tip of the iceberg, I have recently written about Stroke Fahy in Galway East, who got out of jail to top the poll, with the strong support of Mary Hanafin and her brother.

Another example we have Beverly Flynn, of whose expenses etc we can only gain access to about half the strokes she pulls -
I wont bother going into details here - they are available at
citizensimon.blogspot.com

However, with the current system, gombeen politics hold sway.

We hear a lot of talk about transparency and accountability, but othing is delivered, the freedom of information act was nutered by FF

We need to change the gombeen culture of constituancy politics, the only way to do that is electoral reform - e.g. get rid of the senate and introduce a list system

kippy · 09-06-2010 12:33pm

It looks like Harney is gone to ground/blaming the HSE on this latest scandal over miscarriages to hit the Health service.
Like many scandals in her tenure she will no doubt manage to deflect blame from herself onto the local management or the HSE who will in turn deflect blame else where.
The whole HSE "project" has been somewhat of a disaster and provides another level of shelter for the minister. While some good has come of it the resources have been completely squanders.
They are talking about "centers of excellence" for prenatal care now.........surely the cost of the equipment and training people to use it properly justifies us calling any hospital a center of excellence for this care.
If this were to happen, on top of all the other help screw ups in this country in the past 10 years almost anywhere else in the civilised world the minister responsible (who has no party and indeed no mandate from those that voted her in) would be long gone.
But not in Ireland - her pals will back her to the hilt.

Is it a kick in the face for irish people to take Ivor Callely's excuse

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