The Luas: Badly designed?

magic_murph · 14-03-2019 4:28pm #1

Do you think there are design flaws with the luas and the signaling systems etc considering the amount of accident and actual deaths that have been linked with it.

Some incidents are definitely as a result of people running red lights etc but not all can be classed this way.

I wonder how much of a review takes places after each of the incidents

antoinolachtnai · 14-03-2019 4:31pm

Well, it's an inherently dangerous system. Running trams at frequency and speed in close proximity to pedestrians is just a risky thing to do. It is fine up to a certain point, but when the frequency goes high, you really need something segregated, like the proposed MetroLink.

The Luas safety record is actually not bad considering how busy the system is and how many interactions there are with pedestrians and other traffic.

The Rail Safety Commission looks at incidents. I don't really know what the protocol is for investigations.

ednwireland · 14-03-2019 4:32pm

it was designed ??

davidk1394 · 14-03-2019 4:32pm

magic_murph wrote: »

Do you think there are design flaws with the luas and the signaling systems etc considering the amount of accident and actual deaths that have been linked with it.

Some incidents are definitely as a result of people running red lights etc but not all can be classed this way.

I wonder how much of a review takes places after each of the incidents

I think if they painted it red or a luminous color so it would stand out other than grey.
Also people walking across in front of the Luas with headphones in or on their phone is modern day Darwinism and natural selection at its finest.
People are stuck to them and I guarantee you if they reviewed the cause of each incident a person on their phone or with headphones in is top of the list

Victor · 14-03-2019 4:33pm

magic_murph wrote: »

Do you think there are design flaws with the luas and the signaling systems etc considering the amount of accident and actual deaths that have been linked with it.

More than 440,000,000 million trips and only one (intending) passenger killed. Several other road users have died, but Luas has not been responsible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luas#Notable_incidents

Some incidents are definitely as a result of people running red lights etc but not all can be classed this way.

The vast majority of injuries on railways are due to error by third parties.

I wonder how much of a review takes places after each of the incidents

A lot more than a typical car crash.

iamwhoiam · 14-03-2019 4:34pm

I think the flaw is in the pedestrians who don't take precautions around the trams if I am honest

Boom_Bap · 14-03-2019 4:38pm

Badly designed? It looks like The Terminators mickey!

jam_mac_jam · 14-03-2019 4:38pm

I would guess its more to do with people ignoring lights and running out in front of it then the design of the tram.

antoinolachtnai · 14-03-2019 4:38pm

You can say the Luas wasn't responsible for these other incidents in some legal sense, but the system certainly did result in new risks to road-users.

wakka12 · 14-03-2019 4:38pm

Only 6 pedestrians have been killed in 15 years, so less than one every two years with over 41.8 million passengers riding it safely annually (or almost 100 million people riding it safely every two years vs one person dying), and of course most deaths and accidents are through the fault of the pedestrian themselves anyway

The design is fine and as good or better than most tram systems world wide

jimgoose · 14-03-2019 4:41pm

Apparently new figures have revealed that 100% of Luas incidents involved some sort of electric tram. It's a disgrace, Joe...

McMurphy · 14-03-2019 4:53pm

The biggest design flaw was having two Luas lines in a relatively small city that didn't hook up imo.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 14-03-2019 5:41pm

[QUOTE=davidk1394;109681277]I think if they painted it red or a luminous color so it would stand out other than grey.
Also people walking across in front of the Luas with headphones in or on their phone is modern day Darwinism and natural selection at its finest.
People are stuck to them and I guarantee you if they reviewed the cause of each incident a person on their phone or with headphones in is top of the list[/QUOTE]

Good point. It blends in with the dull city streets, plus the skies are grey over Dublin 3 quarters of the yr.

A new paint scheme could definitely reduce incidents.

Pronto63 · 14-03-2019 5:43pm

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Badly designed? It looks like The Terminators mickey!

You mean The Traminator!

:eek:

Paulzx · 14-03-2019 5:49pm

magic_murph wrote: »

Do you think there are design flaws with the luas and the signaling systems etc considering the amount of accident and actual deaths that have been linked with it.

What's the problem with the Luas signalling systems? I'm not aware of one incident involving the Luas where the tram itself broke a signal. There have been numerous minor collisions where cars broke traffic lights.

I'm also unaware of a single fatality that involved an occupant of a car or a tram itself. Unfortunaltely pedestrians have been the big losers but as vulnerable road users this is to be expected.

Fr_Dougal · 14-03-2019 5:50pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

The biggest design flaw was having two Luas lines in a relatively small city that didn't hook up imo.

Maybe they didn’t fancy each other.

murpho999 · 14-03-2019 6:04pm

Tram deaths are tiny.

Compare them to deaths caused by cars, which kill over 1m per year and nobody thinks cars are badly designed?

People walking near tram tracks which are very obvious should be looking out for trams. Simple.

murpho999 · 14-03-2019 6:05pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Good point. It blends in with the dull city streets, plus the skies are grey over Dublin 3 quarters of the yr.

A new paint scheme could definitely reduce incidents.

Are you really saying that people don't see a 60 meter tram because of clouds in the sky?

If they were looking at the clouds they wouldn't see the tram either.

Ridiculous argument.

SEPT 23 1989 · 14-03-2019 6:16pm

They should be fitted with Stuka dive bomber sirens to alert other road users and pedestrians of its approach

DEFTLEFTHAND · 14-03-2019 6:25pm

murpho999 wrote: »

Are you really saying that people don't see a 60 meter tram because of clouds in the sky?

If they were looking at the clouds they wouldn't see the tram either.

Ridiculous argument.

I'm saying that it blends in with the dull city environment. A fresh paint scheme would make it stand out better for drivers and pedestrians alike.

Tow · 14-03-2019 6:30pm

Back when it was initially finished. They admitted (well their engineers) that digging out the embankment rather then building a bridge at Beachwood was a mistake.

The Green Line's original plans had a cycle way/walkway along the Harcourt Street Line section. This was never implemented as the two tracks were laid (far apart) to allow for the metro upgrade, which did not leave enough room. But now that the metro upgrade is not going ahead, a special cycle way is going to be built along roads running largely parallel to the track. Joint up think at it's best!

Gulliver · 14-03-2019 6:33pm

wakka12 wrote: »

Only 6 pedestrians have been killed in 15 years, so less than one every two years with over 41.8 million passengers riding it safely annually (or almost 100 million people riding it safely every two years vs one person dying), and of course most deaths and accidents are through the fault of the pedestrian themselves anyway

The design is fine and as good or better than most tram systems world wide

Is there any breakdown of where the unfortunate pedestrians were from? I'm just wondering if it was tourists or non-locals who weren't familiar with the system who got killed.

Fian · 14-03-2019 6:35pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You can say the Luas wasn't responsible for these other incidents in some legal sense, but the system certainly did result in new risks to road-users.

If the passengers on the luas were using buses or even worse private cars to commute rather than a tram the risks to other road users would be higher - the system significantly reduced the risks overall. so yes "new" lower risks, to replace old more severe risks.

Birneybau · 14-03-2019 6:35pm

People: stupid?

branie2 · 14-03-2019 6:36pm

I think it's fine

Fian · 14-03-2019 6:37pm

Tow wrote: »

But now that the metro upgrade is not going ahead, a special cycle way is going to be built along roads running largely parallel to the track. Joint up think at it's best!

Newspaper headlines notwithstanding, the cancellation of the metro has not been announced. What has been reported is a quote from the Minister saying he would not accept a proposal which caused a 2 year closure of the luas. Nobody has proposed anything of the sort of course.

salmocab · 14-03-2019 6:39pm

Tow wrote: »

Back when it was initially finished. They admitted (well their engineers) that digging out the embankment rather then building a bridge at Beachwood was a mistake.

The Green Line's original plans had a cycle way/walkway along the Harcourt Street Line section. This was never implemented as the two tracks were laid (far apart) to allow for the metro upgrade, which did not leave enough room. But now that the metro upgrade is not going ahead, a special cycle way is going to be built along roads running largely parallel to the track. Joint up think at it's best!

Metro upgrade not going ahead? That’s certainly not been announced.

punisher5112 · 14-03-2019 6:47pm

It could do with a bell sounding all the time.

iamwhoiam · 14-03-2019 7:20pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

It could do with a bell sounding all the time.

That would be seriously annoying for all people living close enough to the Luas to hear it .

astrofool · 14-03-2019 7:39pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

That would be seriously annoying for all people living close enough to the Luas to hear it .

We could call it the "Everything's OK" alarm.

IngazZagni · 14-03-2019 7:45pm

Tow wrote: »

Back when it was initially finished. They admitted (well their engineers) that digging out the embankment rather then building a bridge at Beachwood was a mistake.

This was objected to by local residents. Of course we see time and time again that we allow the minor issues of a few affect major infrastructure projects all over the Country. We will always have third rate infrastructure until this changes.

punisher5112 · 14-03-2019 7:46pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

That would be seriously annoying for all people living close enough to the Luas to hear it .

Not high pitched but like a cat bell....

Just enough for the rodents.... I mean people... To hear

iamwhoiam · 14-03-2019 7:55pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Not high pitched but like a cat bell....

Just enough for the rodents.... I mean people... To hear

Any bell loud enough to shift the eejits with headphones etc on would wake the kids in nearby homes !

nice_guy80 · 14-03-2019 8:01pm

Should have built more of it

Alf Veedersane · 14-03-2019 8:01pm

Paulzx wrote: »

What's the problem with the Luas signalling systems? I'm not aware of one incident involving the Luas where the tram itself broke a signal

Well, apart from the crash with the bus on O'Connell St but the driver was acquitted on direction of the judge due to a degree of conflict in evidence

Alf Veedersane · 14-03-2019 8:03pm

Gulliver wrote: »

Is there any breakdown of where the unfortunate pedestrians were from? I'm just wondering if it was tourists or non-locals who weren't familiar with the system who got killed.

Unfortunate blind pedestrians you mean?

Ones who might not see the tracks or the tram?

KungPao · 14-03-2019 8:05pm

Too many stops is my gripe. And if they could add a short spur so it passes nearer to my house, that’d be great.

punisher5112 · 14-03-2019 8:23pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Well, apart from the crash with the bus on O'Connell St but the driver was acquitted on direction of the judge due to a degree of conflict in evidence

Eh the Luas ran a signal.

The bus had a green light.

Alf Veedersane · 14-03-2019 8:56pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Eh the Luas ran a signal.

The bus had a green light.

Eh, I'm not sure you read the post I quoted.

It said "I'm not aware of one incident involving the Luas where the tram itself broke a signal".

And I said "apart from the one where it crashed into the bus".

strandroad · 14-03-2019 9:05pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

It could do with a bell sounding all the time.

If you're on the luas in town the driver usually keeps sounding the bell all the time, because of rampant jaywalking. Often they don't even look right or left it's quite a sight.

People are so used to jaywalking and the cars accommodating them that they forget the luas cannot brake on the spot.

jrmb · 14-03-2019 9:09pm

I saw a tram painted yellow the other day as part of an advertising campaign. It was very visible but actually looked tidy and quite sharp. In Berlin all of the public transport vehicles are painted a similar colour and they look perfectly elegant. It could be a good idea for Dublin.

nice_guy80 · 14-03-2019 9:45pm

jrmb wrote: »

I saw a tram painted yellow the other day as part of an advertising campaign. It was very visible but actually looked tidy and quite sharp. In Berlin all of the public transport vehicles are painted a similar colour and they look perfectly elegant. It could be a good idea for Dublin.

Paint them the colour of the line
I don't know why the line out to cabra wasn't called the yellow line etc
It's a completely different part of the city

Sheeps · 14-03-2019 9:47pm

The green line was designed to be upgraded to a metro system, with wider reinforced tracks, but then NIMBYism happened.

salmocab · 14-03-2019 9:49pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Paint them the colour of the line
I don't know why the line out to cabra wasn't called the yellow line etc
It's a completely different part of the city

You know that would mean having to repaint every tram every time it crosses the city from green to your yellow

Manic Moran · 14-03-2019 11:16pm

There is nothing as easy to avoid getting run over by as a large vehicle which weighs scores of tons, and does not approach from unexpected directions on unexpected paths. If you can't see the rail lines under your feet, you're probably not going to notice a yellow vehicle 60 feet away and closing.

iamwhoiam · 14-03-2019 11:29pm

salmocab wrote: »

You know that would mean having to repaint every tram every time it crosses the city from green to your yellow

They could use magic paint and have it drive through a car wash and change colours as it crosses town

Outlaw Pete · 14-03-2019 11:43pm

You'd be quicker walking than getting the Luas in many areas. Grand for certain parts of Dublin where it can pick up some speed but they made a mess off locating the stops in or around the city centre.

Nobody is going to walk from Henry St to Malbrough St, Dominick or Parnelll to get the Luas towards Grafton St, they'll just walk up instead and it's the same in the other direction. If you're around Grafton St are you going to walk over to Dawson or around the side of Trinity to get the Luas to O'Connell St? Nah, you'll just walk down as sure it's nearly as far.

They should have made it more user friendly and convenient to jump on and off by like the trams are in San Franciscooooo. Abbey St and Jervis were good locations though, so I guess it's just the Green Line city centre stops I think they dropped the ball on.

Anyway, with regards to safety, the stats ain't so bad.

supersaint3 · 14-03-2019 11:43pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

They could use magic paint and have it drive through a car wash and change colours as it crosses town

My little lad has a jumper and if you rub the picture on it one way it's Darth Vader and the other way it's a stormtrooper....

AndrewJRenko · 15-03-2019 12:12am

davidk1394 wrote: »

I think if they painted it red or a luminous color so it would stand out other than grey.
Also people walking across in front of the Luas with headphones in or on their phone is modern day Darwinism and natural selection at its finest.
People are stuck to them and I guarantee you if they reviewed the cause of each incident a person on their phone or with headphones in is top of the list

Is this a joke?

It's covered in a big yellow stripe. It's big, it's shiny in parts, and it runs along the same track every day, just a few minutes apart.

And you want it repainted? Maybe if drivers would just put their phones down and stop breaking red lights, then they'd stop crashing.

Do we need to paint all houses in hi-vis too now, to make it easy for drivers to avoid them?

https://twitter.com/DubFireBrigade/status/1106246238863851520

Alf Veedersane · 15-03-2019 12:21am

Hmmm. Definitely time for a complete overhaul of LUAS design.

andekwarhola · 15-03-2019 1:04am

By its nature, it has to navigate through urban areas with other traffic and pedestrians. I think a certain level of accidents are inevitable and nearly all can't really be pinned on the luas trams. They're running on fixed tracks with clearly defined junctions. I commuted on the luas for years and the and witnessed first hand the amount of wanker behaviour from pedestrians and especially cars at junctions.

The Luas: Badly designed?

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