The End for Youghal?

hans aus dtschl · 08-11-2018 11:23am

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Will be interesting to see how it goes. Unconfirmed reports say that some of those who were behind the Deise greenway would rather see the train line restored over the greenway,

Only anecdotal, but anyone I met on the line (Kilmeadan, Dungarvan, Kilmac) is thrilled with that greenway. Have yet to meet someone against.

I can see why people would like to have a train line - it's a great way to travel. Don't think IE have any interest in this line in the short-medium term though.

Del.Monte · 08-11-2018 12:10pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Only anecdotal, but anyone I met on the line (Kilmeadan, Dungarvan, Kilmac) is thrilled with that greenway. Have yet to meet someone against.

I can see why people would like to have a train line - it's a great way to travel. Don't think IE have any interest in this line in the short-medium term though.

IE management and staff aren't interested in anything except the big pay-off.

hans aus dtschl · 08-11-2018 12:17pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

IE management and staff aren't interested in anything except the big pay-off.

I think they're interested in Monard and Waterrock tbf. I'd say if a big SDZ went into Mogeely there could be some interest alright. But it'd want to be very big, like Monard big.

Just looking at the numbers, it's 8km and no road crossings, probably something like €60million, if the Midleton rail line is to go by, and they'd need something like 20k people or more to consider it. Would be great, but doubt it'll happen in the next 20 years.

If the NRA approves an upgrade of the N25 to Castlemartyr to dual carriageway people should probably have those figures in mind. Again, nothing on the horizon there though.

Markcheese · 08-11-2018 2:40pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

IE management and staff aren't interested in anything except the big pay-off.

Well they're definitely not interested in getting politically lumbered with another Ennis to Athenry, and I can't say I blame them...

end of the road · 08-11-2018 4:05pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Well they're definitely not interested in getting politically lumbered with another Ennis to Athenry, and I can't say I blame them...

given the passenger railway isn't a commercial venture, what they are interested in or not isn't relevant. they are the operator and infrastructure manager, and they get paid to run the lines by government. what opens or not isn't their concern. at least not anymore

Markcheese · 08-11-2018 8:10pm

end of the road wrote: »

given the passenger railway isn't a commercial venture, what they are interested in or not isn't relevant. they are the operator and infrastructure manager, and they get paid to run the lines by government. what opens or not isn't their concern. at least not anymore

Well they've said they're not interested in it.. And they're leasing it to Cork coco.. Which shows they're not interested in it (except in getting it off their books)
And while your right IR isn't a commercial venture, it does have commercial interests, it has to worry about running lines and stations, allocating rolling stock, balancing books and the government aren't exactly throwing open the purse to them..

end of the road · 09-11-2018 12:12am

Markcheese wrote: »

Well they've said they're not interested in it.. And they're leasing it to Cork coco.. Which shows they're not interested in it (except in getting it off their books)

the fact they aren't interested is irrelevant. if government/NTA ever decide it will open, it will open. whether irish rail are interested or not won't matter a jot, they will be operating it whether they want it or not. and i'd doubt it actually goes off their books dispite them leasing it to the council. i'd be surprised if there isn't some responsibility still remaining with them given they haven't gone for an abandonment order.

Markcheese wrote: »

And while your right IR isn't a commercial venture, it does have commercial interests, it has to worry about running lines and stations, allocating rolling stock, balancing books and the government aren't exactly throwing open the purse to them..

those aren't "commercial" interests as such, but rather simple operations. freight and charter trains would be the only real commercial interests irish rail have.

marno21 · 13-01-2019 4:22am

Councillors to vote on Monday on possibly one of the most short sighted plans I've seen. With a bit of luck sense will prevail and the mistakes of the past won't be repeated but I don't have much hope.

whisky_galore · 14-01-2019 2:35pm

marno21 wrote: »

Councillors to vote on Monday on possibly one of the most short sighted plans I've seen. With a bit of luck sense will prevail and the mistakes of the past won't be repeated but I don't have much hope.

Sense? LoL
Councillors, like some of the greenway supporters, are sheep.
Can't say I'm that surprised at the result.

marno21 · 14-01-2019 3:27pm

Greenway passed council voe

https://twitter.com/JP_Cork/status/1084800555963371520

Cork Trucker · 14-01-2019 3:48pm

marno21 wrote: »

Greenway passed council voe

https://twitter.com/JP_Cork/status/1084800555963371520

If i knew how to appeal it i would.

Markcheese · 14-01-2019 5:01pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

If i knew how to appeal it i would.

Because its been brilliant since the 80s

marno21 · 14-01-2019 5:05pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Because its been brilliant since the 80s

Cork has been following a policy of car based commuting with large scale car dependent residential development in satellite towns since the 80s. In addition to this loads of car dependent development has opened up around the city. In recent years it's been proven that this is not a successful strategy to follow and there is a push on now to density the city and concentrate development in the centre of the city along good quality transit corridors.

Youghal is the only town in Cork that can be rail connected that isn't rail connected (unless you count Blarney's lack of a station). Macroom, Bandon, Fermoy, Watergrasshill, Carrigaline, Kinsale, will never get the opportunity so destroying the last potential corridor is not good forward planning

end of the road · 14-01-2019 5:36pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Because its been brilliant since the 80s

so? it couldn't have been brilliant seeing as it isn't in a state to take traffic. how it was operated previously, or it's current state, does not proclude it from being reopened and providing a good rail service in the future.

whisky_galore · 14-01-2019 5:50pm

No one was rooting for the railway, not the NTA, not Irish Rail, not the councillors, politicians but above all the car-centric people of the locality and Youghal itself selling themselves short. It hadn't a prayer.

Isambard · 14-01-2019 7:20pm

marno21 wrote: »

Cork has been following a policy of car based commuting with large scale car dependent residential development in satellite towns since the 80s. In addition to this loads of car dependent development has opened up around the city. In recent years it's been proven that this is not a successful strategy to follow and there is a push on now to density the city and concentrate development in the centre of the city along good quality transit corridors.

Youghal is the only town in Cork that can be rail connected that isn't rail connected (unless you count Blarney's lack of a station). Macroom, Bandon, Fermoy, Watergrasshill, Carrigaline, Kinsale, will never get the opportunity so destroying the last potential corridor is not good forward planning

Buttevant?

The rational of wanting a line re-opened just because it is there escapes me. There are lots of projects that could be done that would reap greater benefits.

end of the road · 14-01-2019 8:02pm

Isambard wrote: »

Buttevant?

The rational of wanting a line re-opened just because it is there escapes me. There are lots of projects that could be done that would reap greater benefits.

because reopening a line like youghal is easy and quick to do compared to some of the other projects, and it would have a good level of usage.

whisky_galore · 14-01-2019 8:45pm

Isambard wrote: »

Buttevant?

The rational of wanting a line re-opened just because it is there escapes me. There are lots of projects that could be done that would reap greater benefits.

Such as?

Isambard · 14-01-2019 9:10pm

I've said it before, but how about new stations at Blarney, Rathduff, Buttevant etc and a stopping train service from Cork to Limerick City.

whisky_galore · 14-01-2019 9:57pm

Isambard wrote: »

I've said it before, but how about new stations at Blarney, Rathduff, Buttevant etc and a stopping train service from Cork to Limerick City.

Irish Rail have to be forced to do this, elements within Irish Rail were apathetic if not hostile to reopening Midleton. But then, public transport was never this country's strongest suit. Politicians and the people that elect them don't seem to understand any concept outside of the private car.

end of the road · 14-01-2019 10:12pm

Isambard wrote: »

I've said it before, but how about new stations at Blarney, Rathduff, Buttevant etc and a stopping train service from Cork to Limerick City.

nothing apart from will to stop those from happening. money is there to fund them

marno21 · 14-01-2019 10:14pm

Isambard wrote: »

I've said it before, but how about new stations at Blarney, Rathduff, Buttevant etc and a stopping train service from Cork to Limerick City.

New railway stations are part of the Cork Metropolitan Transport Strategy to be published this month.

Not sure why Youghal + new stations can't all be done over an extended period. By the way, I wasn't suggesting Youghal should be opened now, but it looks good for viability in 10 years time or so.

Isambard · 14-01-2019 11:40pm

I don't buy it. It's the same argument as the Western Rail Corridor or Foynes. Let's re-open it because it's there.

Investment in Rail is subject to Cost Benefit analysis and there's plenty of rail projects in the land that would rank above the Youghal line.

Youghal is a small town that would not itself generate enough rail passengers, and so most potential passengers in East Cork would have to drive to the station. and to many of them there would be no advantage over driving to Midleton and also higher fares.

The WRC is in danger of losing parts of it's route through adverse possession and I imagine the same could apply to the Youghal line. A Greenway would protect the corridor.

Isambard · 14-01-2019 11:42pm

marno21 wrote: »

New railway stations are part of the Cork Metropolitan Transport Strategy to be published this month.

Not sure why Youghal + new stations can't all be done over an extended period. By the way, I wasn't suggesting Youghal should be opened now, but it looks good for viability in 10 years time or so.

Cork Metropolitan Transport strategy presumably covers the metropolitan area, whereas my suggestion was a service using spare capacity on the Lim Junc to Cork line (One train an hour each way means it is seriously underused for a double track line)

no.8 · 15-01-2019 11:44am

Good points with the exception of the higher fares comment. Park and Ride commuters will generally travel to the closest station (if the facilities suit). It's not free to drive to midleton from afar either.

Well, as a railway advocate it is on the one hand sad that there won't be a connection anytime soon, but on the other hand the alignment will be preserved and the corridor may prove viable down the line (literally).

Isambard · 15-01-2019 12:00pm

no.8 wrote: »

Good points with the exception of the higher fares comment. Park and Ride commuters will generally travel to the closest station (if the facilities suit). It's not free to drive to midleton from afar either.

Well, as a railway advocate it is on the one hand sad that there won't be a connection anytime soon, but on the other hand the alignment will be preserved and the corridor may prove viable down the line (literally).

the point was that many of them would be on the Midleton side of Youghal or equidistant from either.
I think if you are beyond Youghal, you'd be as likely to be headed for Dungarvan or even Waterford than Cork and anyone north of the area would probably find it as easy to reach Midleton.

Fare from Youghal would obviously be higher than from Midleton

tabbey · 15-01-2019 1:11pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Because its been brilliant since the 80s

What does this mean?

What does the poster intend it to mean?

tabbey · 15-01-2019 1:18pm

Isambard wrote: »

I've said it before, but how about new stations at Blarney, Rathduff, Buttevant etc and a stopping train service from Cork to Limerick City.

These places are on the existing main road which can serve the town centres such as Mallow and Charleville, thus more attractive to the travelling public.

A stopping rail service would have to go via Limerick Junction rather than direct through Croom. The additional distance and travel time would be uncompetitive.

It would be nice to have the direct rail route, but even when it existed, it was very underused. The chances of reopening are currently zero.

Isambard · 15-01-2019 1:59pm

tabbey wrote: »

These places are on the existing main road which can serve the town centres such as Mallow and Charleville, thus more attractive to the travelling public.

A stopping rail service would have to go via Limerick Junction rather than direct through Croom. The additional distance and travel time would be uncompetitive.

It would be nice to have the direct rail route, but even when it existed, it was very underused. The chances of reopening are currently zero.

Youghal is on a main road.Charleville station is nowhere near either the main road or the town centre.

The stopping service to Limerick would ideally serve Limerick Junc as an interchange point for the Waterford services (which themselves need enhancement) and also, importantly, with the Cork to Dublin "fast" trains.

Okon · 15-01-2019 2:18pm

Isambard wrote: »

The rational of wanting a line re-opened just because it is there escapes me.

... and would likely be very little used.

A journey from Youghal to Cork city would still be quicker by car, so I don't see too many people opting for a longer commute.

A greenway keeps the route open though, so should things change one day and the rail link is deemed profitable to re-open at least there won't be a housing estate built on the route instead.

end of the road · 15-01-2019 3:33pm

Okon wrote: »

... and would likely be very little used.

A journey from Youghal to Cork city would still be quicker by car, so I don't see too many people opting for a longer commute.

A greenway keeps the route open though, so should things change one day and the rail link is deemed profitable to re-open at least there won't be a housing estate built on the route instead.

profitable? very very very few passenger railways anywhere in the world are profitable. so whether it is or isn't profitable to reopen it or not is completely irrelevant. what is relevant is how much funding it will save elsewhere such as on more road capacity for singley occupied cars.

it is very unlikely that the route will be returned to rail use now. even though, quite likely i suspect, the proposed greenway will have little usage, as it does not offer anything. greenways like the waterford one have something worth cycling to see. youghal has what?

but not a problem, we can spend a hell of a lot more money on more road capacity for single person cars and congest the city further. not to mention stretching the council budget which probably isn't enough as it is, to take on maintenence?

Markcheese · 15-01-2019 3:56pm

no.8 wrote: »

Good points with the exception of the higher fares comment. Park and Ride commuters will generally travel to the closest station (if the facilities suit). It's not free to drive to midleton from afar either.

Well, as a railway advocate it is on the one hand sad that there won't be a connection anytime soon, but on the other hand the alignment will be preserved and the corridor may prove viable down the line (literally).

I'd largely agree with you, the current Midleton line would be a lot more usable with more investment.. (more stations, more connectivity)

Markcheese · 15-01-2019 4:36pm

end of the road wrote: »

profitable? very very very few passenger railways anywhere in the world are profitable. so whether it is or isn't profitable to reopen it or not is completely irrelevant. what is relevant is how much funding it will save elsewhere such as on more road capacity for singley occupied cars.

it is very unlikely that the route will be returned to rail use now. even though, quite likely i suspect, the proposed greenway will have little usage, as it does not offer anything. greenways like the waterford one have something worth cycling to see. youghal has what?

but not a problem, we can spend a hell of a lot more money on more road capacity for single person cars and congest the city further. not to mention stretching the council budget which probably isn't enough as it is, to take on maintenence?

I don't agree with you that the greenway will be half empty... But nó matter what it won't be ever be a commuter route unlike the Blackrock greenway, which is well traveled by commuters on bikes,
The thing is, there'd be relatively few using it as a rail line either.. (for the fore see able future anyways)
And you are right about road spending versus public transport investment (or even joined up planning)..

Isambard · 15-01-2019 7:09pm

I don't really see how a Greenway from/to Youghal can offer less than the one in Waterford. You don't usually go to a destination, the actually cycling or walking is what people do it for, they enjoy the experience , admire the countryside, stop for a bit of lunch somewhere and cycle /walk back again. If that somewhere they stop is in Youghal then it's a big plus, Youghal needs all the new trade it can get.

Frostybrew · 15-01-2019 7:18pm

Isambard wrote: »

I don't really see how a Greenway from/to Youghal can offer less than the one in Waterford. You don't usually go to a destination, the actually cycling or walking is what people do it for, they enjoy the experience , admire the countryside, stop for a bit of lunch somewhere and cycle /walk back again. If that somewhere they stop is in Youghal then it's a big plus, Youghal needs all the new trade it can get.

Because the Waterford greenway offers some spectacular mountain, coastal, and river scenery and stunning views; along with many examples of interesting railway engineering with viaducts and tunnels.

Youghal to Midleton offers ditches.

tabbey · 15-01-2019 10:42pm

Isambard wrote: »

Charleville station is nowhere near either the main road or the town centre.

A point I have made.

Markcheese · 15-01-2019 11:00pm

Frostybrew wrote: »

Because the Waterford greenway offers some spectacular mountain, coastal, and river scenery and stunning views; along with many examples of interesting railway engineering with viaducts and tunnels.

Youghal to Midleton offers ditches.

Ah but they're east cork ditches...
There are actually some nice views and visitas from along the line,(especially looking south after kilkeagh towards youghal Bay)
there arent many villages to stop at, just 2 between Midleton and youghal, but it is beautiful country side,

Isambard · 16-01-2019 11:54am

Markcheese wrote: »

Ah but they're east cork ditches...
There are actually some nice views and visitas from along the line,(especially looking south after kilkeagh towards youghal Bay)
there arent many villages to stop at, just 2 between Midleton and youghal, but it is beautiful country side,

I thought the lesson had been learned on the WRC, you don't stop at every place where there was originally a station. Not only would such stations inflate the cost, they'd also make the journey time less competitive

Markcheese · 16-01-2019 3:26pm

Isambard wrote: »

I thought the lesson had been learned on the WRC, you don't stop at every place where there was originally a station. Not only would such stations inflate the cost, they'd also make the journey time less competitive

I don't think it matters so much on a greenway...

Isambard · 16-01-2019 5:48pm

Markcheese wrote: »

I don't think it matters so much on a greenway...

yep, i read it properly this time :-)

whisky_galore · 16-01-2019 7:59pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Ah but they're east cork ditches...
There are actually some nice views and visitas from along the line,(especially looking south after kilkeagh towards youghal Bay)
there arent many villages to stop at, just 2 between Midleton and youghal, but it is beautiful country side,

It's pretty ho-hum, no different to that seen on the many by roads in the area of which there's no shortage of. The Waterford one opened up a tunnel, viaducts and sea views previously unseen to many since closure as a railway.

Isambard · 16-01-2019 8:43pm

i'd wager almost all the people using it don't give a flying duck for the railway infrastructure.

whisky_galore · 16-01-2019 9:16pm

Isambard wrote: »

i'd wager almost all the people using it don't give a flying duck for the railway infrastructure.

Whatever you think yourself.

Quackster · 16-01-2019 10:48pm

As someone who's cycled the Waterford greenway, whilst the scenery was very attractive in places, the overriding source of enjoyment was being able to cycle on a country road that was completely free of motorised traffic. I've no doubt many others feel similarly and therefore would expect the Youghal greenway to do well, regardless of how 'boring' the countryside is.

I'd hate to see a greenway obstructing a future reopening of a railway but at the same time I'd hate to see a former railway idle for years, probably decades, to come instead of being put to good use.

Frostybrew · 17-01-2019 1:35am

Quackster wrote: »

As someone who's cycled the Waterford greenway, whilst the scenery was very attractive in places, the overriding source of enjoyment was being able to cycle on a country road that was completely free of motorised traffic. I've no doubt many others feel similarly and therefore would expect the Youghal greenway to do well, regardless of how 'boring' the countryside is.

I'd hate to see a greenway obstructing a future reopening of a railway but at the same time I'd hate to see a former railway idle for years, probably decades, to come instead of being put to good use.

The figure quoted for the development of the greenway is €19 million. Let's hope a sizeable portion of this figure is for bridge rebuilding which will facilitate double tracking and electrification post 2030.

Lord Glentoran · 17-01-2019 11:25am

Quackster wrote: »

As someone who's cycled the Waterford greenway, whilst the scenery was very attractive in places, the overriding source of enjoyment was being able to cycle on a country road that was completely free of motorised traffic. I've no doubt many others feel similarly and therefore would expect the Youghal greenway to do well, regardless of how 'boring' the countryside is.

I'd hate to see a greenway obstructing a future reopening of a railway but at the same time I'd hate to see a former railway idle for years, probably decades, to come instead of being put to good use.

No greenway will ever be allowed to work as a railway again.

Markcheese · 17-01-2019 11:01pm

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

No greenway will ever be allowed to work as a railway again.

Well they're already looking at turning the old Blackrock line in Cork (a path for decades) into a joint tram way and greenway...
It does add complication though...

Markcheese · 18-01-2019 12:37am

Frostybrew wrote: »

The figure quoted for the development of the greenway is €19 million. Let's hope a sizeable portion of this figure is for bridge rebuilding which will facilitate double tracking and electrification post 2030.

How the hell will it cost 19 million to clear and surface the line, there shouldn't be any major engineering, the Aligment already exists, (not sure about where it crosses the n25...)
Or am I just old, and still think 19 million is a lot of money...?

questionmark? · 18-01-2019 12:47am

Markcheese wrote: »

How the hell will it cost 19 million to clear and surface the line, there shouldn't be any major engineering, the Aligment already exists, (not sure about where it crosses the n25...)
Or am I just old, and still think 19 million is a lot of money...?

Reports were €10 -€15 million for the 23km route. Can imagine clearing the tracks, building up the ground so it's stable, tarmac, signage, associated car parks, fencing etc... will all add up so wouldn't be surprised at the cost. I'm all for it and look forward to using it.

Isambard · 18-01-2019 10:22am

Markcheese wrote: »

Well they're already looking at turning the old Blackrock line in Cork (a path for decades) into a joint tram way and greenway...
It does add complication though...

yes I agree, but if they can run a LUAS through the centre of DUblin surely it must be relativley simple to devise shared use of the trackbed. One mode doesn't exclude the other as shown on other Greenways shared with railways. You shouldn't even need a dividing fence by rights. Hell, in places they have massive freight trains passing along the main streets of towns (USA for instance)

The End for Youghal?

Comments