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Beagán gramadaí

2

Comments

  • #52
    MaryKirwan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭MaryKirwan


    Rinne me measúnú gramadaí.

    I don't want to write a wall of text so I'll just ask about the simpler ones I got wrong for now.

    OK, so:


    Question 10: Cén post atá agat? __________

    Is múinteoir mé.
    Tá mé múinteoir.
    I siopa.
    Ní hea.

    I chose the right one (Is múinteoir mé), but I don't understand why "tá mé múinteoir" wasn't acceptable. Is múinteoir mé just sounds better to my ear. It sounds more straightforward, like you're identifying something. It doesn't FEEL like "Tá mé" should be attributed to a noun. Something like that. But I don't really know what's wrong with it.


    Question 11: An post lánaimseartha é? __________

    Tá sé.
    Is ea.
    Níl sé.
    Bíonn.

    Why is it "is ea"? I chose "Tá sé".


    Question 16: An __________ deirfiúr Shorcha?

    ortsa
    agat
    tusa
    bhfuil tú

    I chose "an bhfuil tú", but it's tusa. "An tusa deirfiúr Shorcha?" sounds like "yourself is Sorcha's sister" to me though, rather than "Are you" her sister. How come it's tusa? I'll leave the other 47 questions I got wrong for later :p


  • #53
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    The last two, and "tá mé múinteoir" are all classic "TSF" mistakes, that is, "Tá sé fear" mistakes, as opposed to the correct "is fear é".

    I grabbed this explanation from another site, i don't have a "go-to" technical explanation for the TSF mistake:

    ‘Tá’ is used with adjectives to express a state or condition; it is not used (on its own) for classification or identification sentences, i.e., it can’t be used to answer the question ‘what is he/it?’. For these structures you use ‘is’


  • #54
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    It's also worth remembering that translations between different language families are rarely 100% like-for-like.

    Syntax and idiom and verb conjugations aren't always going to translate cleanly. You can't just apply English grammar rules to Gaeilge.


  • #55
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    It's also worth remembering that translations between different language families are rarely 100% like-for-like.

    Syntax and idiom and verb conjugations aren't always going to translate cleanly. You can't just apply English grammar rules to Gaeilge.

    Always worth noting!


  • #56
    deirdremf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,953 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    MaryKirwan wrote: »
    Question 10: Cén post atá agat? __________

    Is múinteoir mé.
    Tá mé múinteoir.
    I siopa.
    Ní hea.

    I chose the right one (Is múinteoir mé), but I don't understand why "tá mé múinteoir" wasn't acceptable. Is múinteoir mé just sounds better to my ear. It sounds more straightforward, like you're identifying something. It doesn't FEEL like "Tá mé" should be attributed to a noun. Something like that. But I don't really know what's wrong with it.
    As someone has already said the rule is this:
    Is + noun
    Tá mé/tú + adjective
    Question 11: An post lánaimseartha é? __________

    Tá sé.
    Is ea.
    Níl sé.
    Bíonn.

    Why is it "is ea"? I chose "Tá sé".


    Question 16: An __________ deirfiúr Shorcha?

    ortsa
    agat
    tusa
    bhfuil tú

    I chose "an bhfuil tú", but it's tusa. "An tusa deirfiúr Shorcha?" sounds like "yourself is Sorcha's sister" to me though, rather than "Are you" her sister. How come it's tusa? I'll leave the other 47 questions I got wrong for later :p
    These two questions are really the same:
    an in both cases is the verb, it is the interrogative forms of the verb is, an chopail.
    The long answer in q.11 is
    Is post lánaimseartha é
    To save repetition, you say
    Is ea.

    In q.16, an again is the verb, the question or interrogative form. So if you say "an bhfuil" you now have two verbs; and yes, out of context this is very confusing because in a different context "an bhfuil" is a good construction.
    But remember that you didn't say
    Tá mé múinteoir so you're not going to say
    An bhfuil tú múinteoir either.
    You wouldn't say
    Tá tú deirfiúr so you won't say
    An bhfuil tú deirfiúr

    So you have
    is mé - is mise - is múinteoir mé
    is tú - is tusa - is tusa deirfiúr Shorcha
    and alsoto make a question,
    an mé - an mise - an múinteoir mé?
    an tú - an tusa - an tusa deirfiúr Shorcha?
    etc.
    I hope that's of some help!


  • #57
    MaryKirwan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭MaryKirwan


    deirdremf wrote: »
    As someone has already said the rule is this:
    Is + noun
    Tá mé/tú + adjective

    These two questions are really the same:
    an in both cases is the verb, it is the interrogative forms of the verb is, an chopail.
    The long answer in q.11 is
    Is post lánaimseartha é
    To save repetition, you say
    Is ea.

    In q.16, an again is the verb, the question or interrogative form. So if you say "an bhfuil" you now have two verbs; and yes, out of context this is very confusing because in a different context "an bhfuil" is a good construction.
    But remember that you didn't say
    Tá mé múinteoir so you're not going to say
    An bhfuil tú múinteoir either.
    You wouldn't say
    Tá tú deirfiúr so you won't say
    An bhfuil tú deirfiúr

    So you have
    is mé - is mise - is múinteoir mé
    is tú - is tusa - is tusa deirfiúr Shorcha
    and alsoto make a question,
    an mé - an mise - an múinteoir mé?
    an tú - an tusa - an tusa deirfiúr Shorcha?
    etc.
    I hope that's of some help!

    So does that mean if you were asking someone if they were a teacher you'd say "An tusa múinteoir?"?! I've been using "an bhfuil..." for everything :eek:

    I don't really get it, but eventually I will. I'll at least identify it next time. I'll read it another few times and try to understand it a bit better. It's mostly just that I don't understand why "an bhfuil"= two verbs in this context. Is it because you're identifying something, so if you were answering you'd be saying "is mise", so here you need the corresponding "tusa"? I half understand.


  • #58
    MaryKirwan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭MaryKirwan


    OK :3

    Cúpla níos mó ceisteanna faoin measúnú, má ní miste libh.

    Ceist 7:


    Question 7: Féachaim __________ an teilifís.

    ag
    as
    leis
    ar

    Cén fáth "ar" an teilifís seachas (rather than?) "ag". As béarla, you look AT TV, not on it. I know these things don't translate the same way. I'm just wondering if there's a particular explanation.


    Question 31: Tá sé ina chónaí ar imeall __________.

    na cathrach
    an baile
    an cathair
    chathair

    Roghnaigh (I chose?) mé "an cathair" ach tá sé (or is ea??? ) "na cathrach". Cén fáth ;_; Níl tuigim sin ar bith.


    Question 35: Cé mhéad seomra leapa atá sa teach? __________

    Ceathair.
    Trí cinn.
    Triúr.
    Dhá.

    Dúirt mé "Ceathair", tá sé/is ea "trí cinn". What's a cinn :O? It says "advanced" when I look it up.


  • #59
    deirdremf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,953 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    MaryKirwan wrote: »
    So does that mean if you were asking someone if they were a teacher you'd say "An tusa múinteoir?"?! I've been using "an bhfuil..." for everything :eek:
    You could say that, but most people in this context would put "tusa" at the end: An múinteoir tusa? Please don't ask me to explain, other than to say if you put tusa earlier in the sentence, you are stressing it.
    I don't really get it, but eventually I will. I'll at least identify it next time. I'll read it another few times and try to understand it a bit better. It's mostly just that I don't understand why "an bhfuil"= two verbs in this context. Is it because you're identifying something, so if you were answering you'd be saying "is mise", so here you need the corresponding "tusa"? I half understand.
    The verb is has 4 forms in the present tense:
    is - affirmation
    ní - negation
    an - normal question
    nach - negative question (e. g. Aren't you the person I saw at the beach on Tuesday?)

    The problem is that an, ní and nach are also used separately from the above as particles with other verbs:
    An itheann tú leite?
    Ní oibríonn mé ar an Satharn.
    Nach bhfuil gúna nua Mhary go hálainn?

    However, don't worry too much about this, just remember the general rule:
    use is with a noun
    use tá with an adjective


  • #60
    deirdremf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,953 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    MaryKirwan wrote: »
    OK :3

    Cúpla níos mó ceisteanna faoin measúnú, má ní miste libh.

    Ceist 7: Féachaim __________ an teilifís.

    ag
    as
    leis
    ar

    Cén fáth "ar" an teilifís seachas (rather than?) "ag". As béarla, you look AT TV, not on it. I know these things don't translate the same way. I'm just wondering if there's a particular explanation.
    No specific reason, it's just that the verb féach is usually followed by ar. To be learnt and remembered!
    Question 31: Tá sé ina chónaí ar imeall __________.

    na cathrach
    an baile
    an chathair
    chathair

    Roghnaigh (I chose?) mé "an chathair" ach sé ( = is é ) "na cathrach". Cén fáth ;_; Ní thuigim sin ar bith.
    Same reason as you'd say "the edge of the city" rather than "the edge the city"in English: it's a genitive case.
    Question 35: Cé mhéad seomra leapa atá sa teach? __________

    Ceathair.
    Trí cinn.
    Triúr.
    Dhá.

    Dúirt mé "Ceathair", is é "trí cinn" an freagra ceart. What's a cinn :O? It says "advanced" when I look it up.
    ceann amháin, dhá cheann, trí cinn, ceithre cinn etc.

    one of them, two of them, three of them, four of them etc.
    (although ceann, cinn mean head, heads in actual fact. Always used in counting things when you don't actually name the thing)
    Also, when you are counting things, remember to use dhá and ceithre instead of dó and ceathair. The rest of the numbers don't have special forms, except for counting people.


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  • #61
    MaryKirwan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭MaryKirwan


    A few more enquiries for anyone willing to explain.

    Ceist 37

    An (blank) tu ansin go minic?

    Bhfuil
    Ta
    Mbionn
    Bhionn

    Is e mbionn an freagra ceart. Cen fath? Cen fath nach bhfuil se "bhfuil"?

    Ceist 38

    Thosaigh me ag obair ansin cupla (blank) o shin.

    Sheachtaine
    Miosa
    Mi
    Mhi

    Duirt me "sheachtaine" ach is e "mi" an freagra ceart. Ach nil thuigim, mar ta se an aimsir caite. Shouldn't it have a "h"?

    Ceist 39

    (Blank) as mo phost me an tseachtain seo caite.

    Briseadh (freagra ceart)
    Bhris (mo freagra)
    Bristear
    Bhriseann

    Aris, ta se san aimsir caite. Why briseadh? What tense is that anyway?

    Forgive the lack of fadas, my phone won't do 'em.


  • #62
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    MaryKirwan wrote: »
    Ceist 37
    Is e mbionn an freagra ceart. Cen fath? Cen fath nach bhfuil se "bhfuil"?

    Ceist 38
    Duirt me "sheachtaine" ach is e "mi" an freagra ceart. Ach nil thuigim, mar ta se an aimsir caite. Shouldn't it have a "h"?

    Ceist 39
    Aris, ta se san aimsir caite. Why briseadh? What tense is that anyway?

    Forgive the lack of fadas, my phone won't do 'em.

    Bí/bíonn is used for something that happens.
    Tá/"bhfuil" is used for something that is happening right now.

    "Cúpla" doesn't put a séimhiú on the noun that follows it.
    The Aimsir Chaite puts a séimhiú on verbs, not on nouns, so that has nothing to do with it anyway.

    "Briseadh" is the saorbhriathar, Aimsir Chaite. It's used for describing an action that has been done, but without saying who did it.
    The sentence translates as "I was let go from my job last week". It's in the past tense, but it doesn't say exactly who let you go.


  • #63
    MaryKirwan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭MaryKirwan


    [quote="Insect Overlord;84794697"

    "Cúpla" doesn't put a séimhiú on the noun that follows it.
    The Aimsir Chaite puts a séimhiú on verbs, not on nouns, so that has nothing to do with it anyway.
    [/quote]

    Okay, so it's not sheachtaine or mhi because they have a h and the sentence doesn't need one of them. And it's not miosa because that's a single month. So it has to be mi. Is that it? :o


  • #64
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    MaryKirwan wrote: »
    Okay, so it's not sheachtaine or mhi because they have a h and the sentence doesn't need one of them. And it's not miosa because that's a single month. So it has to be mi. Is that it? :o

    Cúpla seachtain, cúpla mí ---- correct :)


  • #65
    MaryKirwan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭MaryKirwan


    deirdremf wrote: »
    No specific reason, it's just that the verb féach is usually followed by ar. To be learnt and remembered!

    Same reason as you'd say "the edge of the city" rather than "the edge the city"in English: it's a genitive case.

    ceann amháin, dhá cheann, trí cinn, ceithre cinn etc.

    one of them, two of them, three of them, four of them etc.
    (although ceann, cinn mean head, heads in actual fact. Always used in counting things when you don't actually name the thing)
    Also, when you are counting things, remember to use dhá and ceithre instead of dó and ceathair. The rest of the numbers don't have special forms, except for counting people.


    Actually, I don't really understand 31. It came up in another context just now.

    "...agus e ag magadh faoi chinealtas an mhaistir".

    And joking about the kindness of the master (ta se ar sceal taim ag leamh)

    I would have thought that it should be "chinealtas den mhaistear"

    Just, you said 31 was "na cathrach" because I wouldn't say "the edge the city", so I thought you meant na implies of the, but an doesn't. In this case, it couldn't be na because it's one man. So where's the "of the" there?


  • #66
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    MaryKirwan wrote: »
    Actually, I don't really understand 31. It came up in another context just now.

    "...agus e ag magadh faoi chinealtas an mhaistir".

    And joking about the kindness of the master (ta se ar sceal taim ag leamh)

    I would have thought that it should be "chinealtas den mhaistear"

    Just, you said 31 was "na cathrach" because I wouldn't say "the edge the city", so I thought you meant na implies of the, but an doesn't. In this case, it couldn't be na because it's one man. So where's the "of the" there?
    MaryKirwan wrote: »
    Actually, I don't really understand 31. It came up in another context just now.

    "...agus e ag magadh faoi chinealtas an mhaistir".

    And joking about the kindness of the master (ta se ar sceal taim ag leamh)

    I would have thought that it should be "chinealtas den mhaistear"

    Just, you said 31 was "na cathrach" because I wouldn't say "the edge the city", so I thought you meant na implies of the, but an doesn't. In this case, it couldn't be na because it's one man. So where's the "of the" there?

    It's to do with the genitive form of the words. Bear with me, I may not be correct with my explanation, but the end result will definitely be correct :P

    So. We have the noun, "fear". Fear = man/a man. Plural is "fir". "men".

    The genitive singular form of "fear" is "fir", and the genitive plural form of it is fear. Yes, you heard me right. Like opposites.

    (The) hat of the man. Possessions utulises the genitive case. So we must use it. Man is in the singular in English, so we do the same in Irish. The answer is "hata an fhir". Irish doesn't distinguish whether there's a the before hata, rather this meaning is included within the an/na in the middle if the context demands it. That's why I have the first "the" in brackets.

    So. (The) hat of the MEN. We use "na" because it's in the plural, and because it's masculine (an for singular, na for plural - but you'll see soon, for feminine nouns it's the opposite). Remember, the genitive plural form is "fear" which means of men. So the answer is "hata na bhfear". There is an ellipsis of "fear" because anytime a noun in the genitive plural follows na this is done. So hata na gcapall means (the) hat of the horses (capall is the genitive plural form of horse - yes I know capall is also the nominative plural form in the singular).

    Also note that, following "an" in the genitive the genitive singular, the genitive singular form is lenited. So we have "hata fir" which mean (a) hat of a man and "hata an fhir" (the) hat of the man. Or, since "capaill" is the genitive singular form of capall, we have either "hata capaill" or "hata an chapaill).

    Hope I'm being clear so far. I'm writing this on my iphone, hopefully there are no mistakes. Now for feminine nouns.

    So. "Cathair" is feminine. So using definite article is slightly different in conjunction with the genitive case relative to masculine words. It's the opposite. OK.

    Cathair. (A) city. "Cathrach" is the genitive singular form of it. It is a feline noun. "Cathracha" is the genitive plural form of city, and, as you might know already means "of cities".

    "Geata cathrach" (a) gate of a city. Geata na cathrach. (The) gate of the city. No mutation of the genitive singular form as you can see. Geata cathracha. Gates of cities. Geata na gcathracha. (The) gate of the cities. Note again how na mutates cathracha.

    Another feminine word. Leaba. Bed. Genitive singular is "leapa". Gen. plural is "leapacha". So, we'll hata again for fun :))

    Hata na leapa. (The) hat of the bed. Hata na leapacha. (The) hat of the beds. Note that l resists mutation., so no change.

    I hope that clears it up. an/na are definite articles in Irish, and are used accordingly when implementing the genitive case.

    So, in your case we have máistir. The genitive singular is simply máistir. No change. So implementing the genitive case with a noun that's masculine is "cineáltas an mháistir". (The) kindness/generosity of the master/teacher.


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  • #67
    teileann
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70 ✭✭teileann


    the master's kindness /the kindness of the master
    Genitive case.

    just as
    the dog's colour/the colour of the dog
    dath an mhadra

    the cat's tail/the tail of the cat
    eireaball an chait


    the table legs/the legs of the table
    cosa an bhoird/

    the tree leaves/the leaves of the tree
    duilleoga an chrainn

    are other examples of the genitive case singular.

    The genitive is formed differently depending on which group (declension) the noun belongs to.
    All the above are formed by
    1. putting in the article an (the)
    2. séimhiú
    3. and making the noun slender. (blue)

    Not all genitives are formed like this.

    imeall na cathrach the edge of the city/city's edge

    In this example
    an chathair is the Nominative singular
    and the genitive is formed by
    changing an to na
    and changing the spelling of cathair to cathrach
    imeall na cathrach

    The na does not mean that it is plural. It is used when forming the genitive singular of a feminine noun.
    The examples that I gave at the top are all masculine nouns and the an does not change to na.

    The bus goes to
    lár na cathrach.
    city centre/centre of the city

    siopaí na cathrach
    are
    The city shops /the shops of the city.

    Do you know the song
    Barr na Sráide ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQaLCWhnxYg

    An tsráid the street (feminine noun)
    but
    the top of the street (Genitive)
    barr na sráide.


  • #68
    teileann
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70 ✭✭teileann


    Gabh mo leithscéal, a Ghumbi.
    Ní fhaca mé do fhreagra go dtí go raibh mo cheannsa seolta agam.
    Sílim go rabhamar ag clóscríobh ag an am céanna.


  • #69
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    teileann wrote: »
    Gabh mo leithscéal, a Ghumbi.
    Ní fhaca mé do fhreagra go dtí go raibh mo cheannsa seolta agam.
    Sílim go rabhamar ag clóscríobh ag an am céanna.

    'Cuma ann go ndeirimid an rud céanna ar aon nós :)


  • #70
    MaryKirwan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭MaryKirwan


    Cén fáth úsáideann an abairtí seo "i ngan" seachas díreach (rather than just) "gan":

    "Bhí sí ag déanamh aclaíochta sa mbreis i ngan a fhios dom".

    Chomh maith leis sin, cén fáth an "dom" seachas an gnáth "agam"?


  • #71
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    MaryKirwan wrote: »
    Cén fáth úsáideann an abairtí seo "i ngan" seachas díreach (rather than just) "gan":

    "Bhí sí ag déanamh aclaíochta sa mbreis i ngan a fhios dom".

    Chomh maith leis sin, cén fáth an "dom" seachas an gnáth "agam"?

    That's the idiom. You have to get out of the mindset of translating word for word, it's not a good habit when it comes to learning a new language. "i ngan fhios do" is the idiom for "not knowing".


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  • #72
    MaryKirwan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭MaryKirwan


    Gumbi wrote: »
    That's the idiom. You have to get out of the mindset of translating word for word, it's not a good habit when it comes to learning a new language. "i ngan fhios do" is the idiom for "not knowing".

    I know, but how can I know when something's an idiom? :confused:


  • #73
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    MaryKirwan wrote: »
    I know, but how can I know when something's an idiom? :confused:

    You can't, you just learn it :)


  • #74
    Aodh Rua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Aodh Rua


    Placenames.

    I just drove down Prospect Road. The Irish on the sign, and according to the usually reliable Logainm.ie, is Bóthar na Radharc. However, according to Focal.ie 'Radharc' is masculine, and the genitive is 'Radhairc'. Should, therefore, the correct Irish not be Bóthar an Radhairc?


  • #75
    Micilin Muc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭Micilin Muc


    The official plural of radharc is 'radhairc'. The genitive of the plural is 'radharc', hence Bóthar na Radharc (more than one sight to behold!)


  • #76
    Aodh Rua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Aodh Rua


    Micilin Muc wrote: »
    The official plural of radharc is 'radhairc'. The genitive of the plural is 'radharc', hence Bóthar na Radharc (more than one sight to behold!)

    I'm not too sure about 'Prospect' being the plural Micilín because Prospect Road goes to what is officially still named Prospect Cemetery, but more commonly known as Glasnevin Cemetery. Prospect was the old name for this townland. Similarly Prospect Avenue right next to it was formerly knows as Cemetery Avenue. Séamas Ó Brógáin records it as Bóthar an Radhairc on his Sráidainmneacha Bhaile Átha Cliath, even though DCC records it as Bóthar na Radharc.


  • #77
    Aodh Rua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Aodh Rua


    deirdremf wrote: »
    You have to be careful with the "á múineadh" construction, as it refers to the student or students, and the initial will have a séimhiú/urú/will be unchanged, depending on whether what you are referring to is masculine/plural/feminine. Obviously in this case, it doesn't change as students are plural and "m" doesn't take an urú.

    Apologies for going back to this point but could somebody tell me the grammatical name for the á ndéanamh/á lorg/á múineadh construction? I can then study it myself. I'm still not clear how it is used, for instance how do I distinguish if he has done something or she has? And if it was done would it just be "a dhéanamh" (without the fada over the "a")?


  • #78
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    Apologies for going back to this point but could somebody tell me the grammatical name for the á ndéanamh/á lorg/á múineadh construction? I can then study it myself. I'm still not clear how it is used, for instance how do I distinguish if he has done something or she has? And if it was done would it just be "a dhéanamh" (without the fada over the "a")?

    If the noun is singular, then it would be "á dhéanamh" for masculine/firinscneach and "á déanamh" for feminine/baininscneach. In the plural, "á ndéanamh".

    So: séimhiú for masculine singular, no séimhiú for feminine (unless it starts with a vowel) and an urú for plural, when using "á" to describe what is being done.

    For me/you/he/she/we/ye/they: Tá sé á dhéanamh (for example) agam/agat/aige/aici/againn/agaibh/acu.

    To describe something that was done/has been done you need the Aidiacht Bhriathartha. Some examples would be:
    dúnta, oscailte, ólta, déanta, críochnaithe, ceannaithe


  • #79
    Aodh Rua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Aodh Rua


    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    If the noun is singular, then it would be "á dhéanamh" for masculine/firinscneach and "á déanamh" for feminine/baininscneach. In the plural, "á ndéanamh".

    So: séimhiú for masculine singular, no séimhiú for feminine (unless it starts with a vowel) and an urú for plural, when using "á" to describe what is being done.

    For me/you/he/she/we/ye/they: Tá sé á dhéanamh (for example) agam/agat/aige/aici/againn/agaibh/acu.

    To describe something that was done/has been done you need the Aidiacht Bhriathartha. Some examples would be:
    dúnta, oscailte, ólta, déanta, críochnaithe, ceannaithe

    Thanks for that.

    OK, so: Tá sé á dhéanamh aige = He is doing it (?)
    Tá sé á déanamh aici = She is doing it (?)

    Can you also use it in the active sense in the past and future: e.g. Bhí sé á ndéanamh acu = They did it (?)or Bheidh sé á dhéanamh agat = You will do it (? if talking to a male)

    But in the passive sense you must use the Aidiacht Bhriathartha - e.g. Bhí mo chuid oibre déanta roimh a naoi a chlog = My work was done before 9 (?)


  • #80
    Aodh Rua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Aodh Rua


    Also, anybody know the grammatical name of the "á dhéanamh etc" construction?


  • #81
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    Thanks for that.

    OK, so: Tá sé á dhéanamh aige = He is doing it (?)
    Tá sé á déanamh aici = She is doing it (?)

    Not exactly. The gender of the object determines whether or not it takes a séimhiú. Take, for example, a window. Fuinneog is a feminine noun.

    Tá an fhuinneog á dúnadh aige. (He is closing the window.)
    Tá an fhuinneog á dúnadh aici. (She is closing the window.)

    Contrast that with a door (doras being a masculine noun):

    Tá an doras á dhúnadh aige. (He is closing the door.)
    Tá an doras á dhúnadh aici. (She is closing the door.)
    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    Can you also use it in the active sense in the past and future: e.g. Bhí sé á ndéanamh acu = They did it (?)or Bheidh sé á dhéanamh agat = You will do it (? if talking to a male)

    The urú is used when you are talking about plurals.

    Tá na fuinneoga á ndúnadh ag na fir. (The men are closing the windows.)
    Tá na doirse á ndúnadh ag na mná. (The women are closing the doors.)
    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    But in the passive sense you must use the Aidiacht Bhriathartha - e.g. Bhí mo chuid oibre déanta roimh a naoi a chlog = My work was done before 9 (?)

    That's the most straightforward way of describing that an action has been done. Here's a link to a useful grammar site: http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/zeitform.htm#Verlaufsform
    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    Also, anybody know the grammatical name of the "á dhéanamh etc" construction?

    I think it's the passive progressive form of the Ainm Briathartha/verbal noun.


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  • #82
    deirdremf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,953 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aodh Rua viewpost.gif
    Also, anybody know the grammatical name of the "á dhéanamh etc" construction?

    I think it's the passive progressive form of the Ainm Briathartha/verbal noun.


    You've explained it well, but as regards the name, I don't know - I wouldn't call it passive, though.
    The progressive form of the verbal noun would be okay, I'd say, but I'm not sure that there aren't other progressive forms of the verbal noun, too.
    The "á" is actually a contraction of "do a", with "do" forms for the other persons when needed:
    do mo
    do do
    d'ár
    do bhur

    e.g. A Mhamaí, tá sé do mo bhualadh. - Mammy, he's hitting me.

    (slightly different construction, I know, as there is no "ag" here).

    Maybe we could call it the progressive form with "do"? (or with "á" if you prefer).


  • #83
    Aodh Rua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Aodh Rua


    Thanks once again IO and Deirdre. Another one.

    What is the difference between, for example, 'tá an doras dúnta' and 'Dúntar an doras'? I know the former is the aidiacht bhriathartha and the latter is the Briathar Saor (present tense ending). But in both cases we do not know who has closed the door so I'm just trying to get a clear definition of the different function of both "tenses" (Are both of them tenses, or what precisely is their grammar label?).


  • #84
    teileann
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70 ✭✭teileann


    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    Thanks once again IO and Deirdre. Another one.

    What is the difference between, for example, 'tá an doras dúnta' and 'Dúntar an doras'? I know the former is the aidiacht bhriathartha and the latter is the Briathar Saor (present tense ending). But in both cases we do not know who has closed the door so I'm just trying to get a clear definition of the different function of both "tenses" (Are both of them tenses, or what precisely is their grammar label?).

    Tá an doras dúnta. The door is a state of being closed. It is closed. We have no information into the action which caused it to be closed.
    Dúntar an doras. The door is closed but this relates to an action. Briathar.


    Sombody closes the door. Briathar Saor. We don't know who.
    I think the problem is that we think in English.
    Sombody closes the door and
    the door is closed (possibly by xxx)
    has the same meaning in English.

    I usually think of the Briathar Saor as
    somebody
    who does the action, we just don't know who that somebody is.


  • #85
    teileann
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70 ✭✭teileann


    deirdremf wrote: »
    You've explained it well, but as regards the name, I don't know - I wouldn't call it passive, though.
    The progressive form of the verbal noun would be okay, I'd say, but I'm not sure that there aren't other progressive forms of the verbal noun, too.
    The "á" is actually a contraction of "do a", with "do" forms for the other persons when needed:
    do mo
    do do
    d'ár
    do bhur

    e.g. A Mhamaí, tá sé do mo bhualadh. - Mammy, he's hitting me.

    (slightly different construction, I know, as there is no "ag" here).

    Maybe we could call it the progressive form with "do"? (or with "á" if you prefer).

    This is not exactly the same thing but I read a couple of days ago about
    a + séimhiú
    having a meaning of
    for

    Unfortunately, I can't remember where I saw it as I would like to look into it.
    I found the following in FGB under a - purpose
    D'éirigh sé a chaint, he rose to speak. Téigh a chodladh, go to sleep. Tháinig sé a iarraidh iasachta orm, he came to ask me for a loan.

    Does anybody use this construction? I use téig a chodladh, but don't use the others. I would probably stick in chun.
    The
    a +séimhiú
    seems
    succint.


  • #86
    deirdremf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,953 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    teileann wrote: »
    This is not exactly the same thing but I read a couple of days ago about
    a + séimhiú
    having a meaning of
    for

    Unfortunately, I can't remember where I saw it as I would like to look into it.
    I found the following in FGB under a - purpose
    D'éirigh sé a chaint, he rose to speak. Téigh a chodladh, go to sleep. Tháinig sé a iarraidh iasachta orm, he came to ask me for a loan.

    Does anybody use this construction? I use téig a chodladh, but don't use the others. I would probably stick in chun.
    The
    a +séimhiú
    seems
    succint.
    Gaeilge Thír Chonaill, b'fhéidir?
    Cé nár chualas "d'éirigh sé a chaint" riamh.


  • #87
    An gal gréine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 941 ✭✭✭An gal gréine


    deirdremf wrote: »
    Gaeilge Thír Chonaill, b'fhéidir?
    Cé nár chualas "d'éirigh sé a chaint" riamh.

    'S é leagan infinideach an bhriathair a leanann cineálacha áirid briathra i nGaeilic Thír Chonaill. Nuair a thagann briathra ar nós éirigh, seasaigh, imigh srl. sa phríomhchlásal 'is nuair a leanann frása iad a chuireann cuspóir nó aidhm in iúl, is gnáth gur leis an infinid a chuirtear an cuspóir nó aidhm sin in iúl. Samplaí eile:
    Tá siad ag dul a dhamhsa.
    Chuaigh se a throid.


  • #88
    kingchess
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kingchess


    i think you are talking about the direct relative clause -you use the direct relative particle( a) to translate -who,-to whom etc-this will add h to the verb in irish eg-the man who was working here,and if it is an indirect clause you also use (a) which will eclipse the verb eg the man whose son was working here.this is in reply to aodh rua.


  • #89
    Micilin Muc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭Micilin Muc


    An gal gréine wrote: »
    'S é leagan infinideach an bhriathair a leanann cineálacha áirid briathra i nGaeilic Thír Chonaill. Nuair a thagann briathra ar nós éirigh, seasaigh, imigh srl. sa phríomhchlásal 'is nuair a leanann frása iad a chuireann cuspóir nó aidhm in iúl, is gnáth gur leis an infinid a chuirtear an cuspóir nó aidhm sin in iúl. Samplaí eile:
    Tá siad ag dul a dhamhsa.
    Chuaigh se a throid.


    An ceart ar fad ag an nGal Gréine.


  • #90
    MacGiobuin
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭MacGiobuin


    Cuirfear fáilte roimh aon chomairle!

    Tá na rudaí seo agam:
    Tá mé ag iarraidh oibre (ginideach)
    Tá mé ag iarraidh obair a dhéanamh (gan ginideach)

    ach cad é faoi seo

    Tá mé ag iarraidh obair a bheidh furasta
    Nó
    Tá mé ag iarraidh oibre a bheidh furasta (sílim seo)

    Cé acu i gceart a chairde?
    An ndéanann 'atá, a bheidh, a bheadh srl' difear?


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  • #91
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Does anybody know what 'maitríósce' means? It's not appearing anywhere online except in a story by Siobhán Parkinson.


  • #92
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    Does anybody know what 'maitríósce' means? It's not appearing anywhere online except in a story by Siobhán Parkinson.

    No idea, it certainly doesn't look like an Irish word, it doesn't follow spelling conventions at all (the íó specifically).


  • #93
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    Does anybody know what 'maitríósce' means? It's not appearing anywhere online except in a story by Siobhán Parkinson.

    Maitríóisce
    Níl meas ar bith ag Mara ar na bábóigíní Rúiseacha a thugann a máthair di dá lá breithe, ach rud is iontach — tá duine de na bábóigíní ar iarradh, ach deir Mam nach bhfuil barúil aici fúithí…
    Mara’s mother gives her a birthday present of Matryoshka dolls from Russia, and one of the dolls is missing. When Mara and her friend Dorota go in search of the missing doll they make some discoveries.

    It's an Irish spelling of a Russian word. It's there in the description so I dunno how you missed it! :P


  • #94
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Briseadh v Briste
    Dúnadh v. Dúnta
    etc.

    Briseadh an fhuinneog; the window was broken
    Bhí an fhuinneog briste: the window was broken
    Brisfear an fhuinneog: the window will be broken
    Beidh an fhuinneog briste; the window will be broken
    Dúntar an doras; the door is closed
    Tá an doras dúnta; the door is closed

    Could somebody explain the difference between both in the above examples and correct me if I'm mistaken in my translation. I suspect the saorbhriathar intentionally avoids mentioning who is responsible, while there is not necessarily any intentional avoidance in the aidiacht bhriathartha. Not sure at all of the full difference, though. Grma.


  • #95
    MacGiobuin
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭MacGiobuin


    Seo mar a mholfainn féin duit...

    Use the aidiacht bhriathartha....when it acts as an adjective
    E.g.
    Tá an fhuinneog briste .......The window is broken
    Bhí an fhuinneog briste.......The window was broken
    In these examples you are describing the window (it's appearance for example)

    On the other hand, use the Saorbhriathar when stating something happened (the verb- V) to the window (object - O). As you rightly said, when not mentioning who carried out the action (without a subject-S)
    E.g.
    Briseadh an fhuinneog (the window was broken)
    Or maybe you might say
    Dúnadh an fhuinneog bhriste (the broken window was closed; describing the action of the broken window being closed)


    Bhí an fhuinneog dúnta ag Seán nuair a chonaic sé Máire. Seán had (already) closed the window when he saw Máire

    Dúnadh an fhuinneog nuair a chonacthas Máire. The window was closed when Máire was seen. (Because she was seen possibly; or just after see she was seen etc)
    Dhún sé an fhuinneog nuair a chonaic sé Máire. He closed the window when he saw Máire.


    Summary:
    In the Aidiacht bhriathartha examples you are describing the condition of the object (window)
    In the Saorbhriathar examples you are describing action (closing)


  • #96
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    1. Comhairle Bhéaloideas Éireann ("Comhairle Chontae", 46,400 torthaí)


    nó

    Comhairle Béaloideas Éireann ("Comhairle Contae", 64,700 torthaí)

    Ach:

    Ón gCaighdeán Oifigiúil (lth 205)
    (j) aonaid riaracháin agus gnó: más teideal aonaid riaracháin nó gnó atá i gceist:— An Roinn Comhshaoil, an rannóg pearsanra, seirbhís comhairleoireachta, comhairle baile, comhairle contae, comhairle cathrach,...


    2. Leabharlann Poiblí (Cabrach, BÁC 7)

    nó

    Leabharlann Phoiblí (Deilginis, Co. BhÁC) (Leabharlann = baininscneach)

    3. Feis Ceoil

    nó

    Feis Cheoil (Feis = baininscneach)


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  • #97
    Micilin Muc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭Micilin Muc


    Tá na cinn seo ceart:

    1. Comhairle Béaoideas Éireann (agus Comhairle Contae)

    2. Leabharlann Phoiblí

    3. Feis cheoil


  • #98
    NCW feen
    Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭NCW feen


    An bhfuil aon difríocht idir 'silím' agus 'silímse' ?


  • #99
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    NCW feen wrote: »
    An bhfuil aon difríocht idir 'silím' agus 'silímse' ?

    The "se" at the end is for emphasis. Can be used for any verb Táim ---> Táimse etc. Also mé ---> mise.


  • #100
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Roundstone is Cloch na Rón, the stone of the seal, in Irish, according to the Logainm.ie entry.

    But Rón is masculine, according to Teanglann.ie.

    Why, therefore, is the correct name not Cloch an Róin, for stone of the seal, or even Cloch na Rónta, if stone of the seals is meant?


  • #101
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    Roundstone is Cloch na Rón, the stone of the seal, in Irish, according to the Logainm.ie entry.

    But Rón is masculine, according to Teanglann.ie.

    Why, therefore, is the correct name not Cloch an Róin, for stone of the seal, or even Cloch na Rónta, if stone of the seals is meant?

    Could be feminine in the particular dialect, I imagine.


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