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LGBT and Islam

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    #242
    Der Stier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Der Stier


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    So what? He's preaching shìte, there are christians preaching the same shìte.

    Should we tar all with the same brush?

    Unfortunately research shows a lot more Muslims share this opinion than Christians.


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    #243
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Der Stier wrote: »
    Unfortunately research shows a lot more Muslims share this opinion than Christians.

    He does not represent Muslims in the same way westboro baptist church do not represent Christians.


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    #244
    Der Stier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Der Stier


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    He does not represent Muslims in the same way westboro baptist church do not represent Christians.

    I do hope you are correct - really


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    #245
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,162 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Wow !
    Classy as ever! trying to get me banned by misrepresenting my post!

    What I meant was - to clarify - the doublethink here is the mental illness.
    Not being gay or being a Muslim.

    Ah ok - in that case I have misunderstood (chill!)

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #246
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Der Stier wrote: »
    I do hope you are correct - really

    When was the last time a muslim insulted you? When was the last time a muslim attacked you? When was the last time you heard a muslim scream "FÙCKING FÀGGOTS" in a gay persons face?

    I've never seen a muslim do any of that, i have seen a christian people do it all 3 in the last 6 months.


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    #247
    Harvey Weinstein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Harvey Weinstein


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    So what? He's preaching shìte, there are christians preaching the same shìte.

    Should we tar all with the same brush?


    Can you post some surveys from Muslims or Muslim countries which show a majority favourable opinion of Homosexuals?

    How many Muslim countries recognise same sex marriage? In how many Muslim countries is it even legal to be Gay?


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    #248
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    When was the last time a muslim insulted you? When was the last time a muslim attacked you? When was the last time you heard a muslim scream "FÙCKING FÀGGOTS" in a gay persons face?

    I've never seen a muslim do any of that, i have seen a christian people do it all 3 in the last 6 months.

    You make a very good point actually.


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    #249
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Harvey Weinstein wrote: »
    Can you post some surveys from Muslims or Muslim countries which show a majority favourable opinion of Homosexuals?

    How many Muslim countries recognise same sex marriage? In how many Muslim countries is it even legal to be Gay?

    I don't live in a muslim country i live in a christian country. Why don't you post up those surveys? I have never claimed any of the above.

    If an imam says xxxx about gays he does not represent all muslims.

    If an christian preacher says xxxx about gays he does not represent all christians.

    Is that so hard to understand?


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    #250
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Then there is some context I have not seen yet and you have not shown yet because the contents of the placard do not seem to match your description of it yet.

    And this is from someone who argued in the past that slogans and so forth do not have to be _exactly_ representative and explain every nuance of the persons position. So I am not someone who is demanding complete clarity of a placard here.

    But if their issue is they do not want differing values conflicting with the values their children are being instilled with - then I am not sure how a placard suggesting confusion in the child is representing that. It is two very different things. Perhaps confusion is a word I am using differently to them. Perhaps by confusion they mean more what I would call "internal conflict" or the child finding their way.


    I think they’re just referring to the fact that they don’t want their children taught values by the school which are in conflict with their own values. The conflict has been going on for a while now -

    Birmingham school stops LGBT lessons after parents protest


    There was a recent similar conflict (but in the opposite direction) here in this country -


    Educate Together taking direct action in sex education primary school row as parents stage protest

    Which likely goes a long way to explaining why I never once claimed or even implied it was unique to my situation. I just think it worthy of note that confused people tend to project onto children their own confusion - which is probably them assuming I guess that if they are confused then surely children will be too - if not more so.

    The opposite in my experience is the reality though. Children are much more understanding and much less prone to confusion than many give them credit for. In fact I find them prone to insights that I myself never find in myself or other adults.


    My point is that parents will decide what is best for their own children in their particular circumstances, as opposed to what someone else thinks is better for their children or someone else’s experience with other children who are not the children of the parents whom other people who are trying to impose their ideas upon. Other people may see the parents as confused, parents may see other people as confused, but ultimately it is the parents who maintain the right to choose how their own children should be raised and what values they should or should not be exposed to, as opposed to other people wishing to expose children to ideas their parents do not want their children exposed to.


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    #251
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    When was the last time a muslim insulted you? When was the last time a muslim attacked you? When was the last time you heard a muslim scream "FÙCKING FÀGGOTS" in a gay persons face?

    I've never seen a muslim do any of that, i have seen a christian people do it all 3 in the last 6 months.

    Hehe actually just for the interest of fairness I have have not just seen - but been the direct or near direct recipient of - all three in the last 18 months by people I am led to believe are entirely atheist :) We are not immune to assholery it seems in our group either.

    And at some point I can not now date in the last decade I was drawn into a physical altercation with a Wiccan who I drunkenly remember threw fecal matter - not human - at me.

    This would be why statistics rather than anecdotes are more useful. Especially if the source group sizes for relative anecdotes are skewed by many multiples of %s. If we live in a country that is over 90% Christian and under 5% Muslim for example - and under 10% atheist then an anecdote pissing contest is going to be unfair to _at least_ one party.

    I mean who even _meets_ a wiccan these days???? :D


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    #252
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I think they’re just referring to the fact that they don’t want their children taught values by the school which are in conflict with their own values.

    Oh no I get that bit sorry if I was not clear on that. I know what you are saying their issue is! I just do not see the placard in question being remotely representative of that to anyone but the person who wrote the placard.

    As I said I have in the past argued slogans and placards do not need to be entirely on point. I defended a few times the "my body my choice" slogan in abortion for example from people who were yammering on about the exceptions to it. In fact I argue slogans and placards literally _cant_ be entirely representative and we should give them quite a wide margin of leeway!

    But they should at least be a useful indicator of the message behind them. And "Dont confuse our children" - and what the actual issue you describe is - they are quite parallel to my reading of them. One appears to be not a representation of the other at all in any way I can yet see. But as I said - they may simply use the word "confuse" in a way I would use words like discovery - conflict - and other words around the concept of finding ones place in life. I use the word "confuse" more as an indicator as a failure in understanding which as I said is more insulting to their own children than I suspect they intended to be.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    My point is that parents will decide what is best for their own children in their particular circumstances

    Which of course is only a good thing up to a point! We certainly as a society should not be giving complete free reign to parents in choosing what is best for their own children. And thankfully we as a society actually are not doing that. Their ability to make that determination is curtailed and limited in all kinds of ways in fact.


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    #253
    Harvey Weinstein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Harvey Weinstein


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    I don't live in a muslim country i live in a christian country. Why don't you post up those surveys? I have never claimed any of the above.

    If an imam says xxxx about gays he does not represent all muslims.

    If an christian preacher says xxxx about gays he does not represent all christians.

    Is that so hard to understand?

    Aside from the video

    The fact remains that across the Muslim world the vast majority of Muslims hold dire attitudes towards Homosexuals. If you disagree with this statement then perhaps you could provide evidence to the contrary.

    You cannot get around this fact, and I would say that your denials are a grevious insult towards Homosexuals...and in fact should illustrate to Gays that when the time comes they will be abandoned when faced with Muslim pressure

    The Birmingham school episode and the pitiful response by the contemporary left shows this is happening already


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    #254
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Der Stier wrote: »
    Unfortunately research shows a lot more Muslims share this opinion than Christians.


    What research are you referring to? I couldn’t find any research to support your viewpoint above as representative of Christianity worldwide, but as far as Christianity in the US goes -


    Amid a changing religious landscape that has seen a declining percentage of Americans who identify as Christian, a majority of U.S. Christians (54%) now say that homosexuality should be accepted, rather than discouraged, by society. While this is still considerably lower than the shares of religiously unaffiliated people (83%) and members of non-Christian faiths (76%) who say the same, the Christian figure has increased by 10 percentage points since we conducted a similar study in 2007. It reflects a growing acceptance of homosexuality among all Americans – from 50% to 62% – during the same period.

    Pew Research Centre

    And Africa as a continent is pretty much evenly split between Christians and Muslims who condemn homosexuality with a population of 40% Christian and 45% Muslim.


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    #255
    Sajid Javid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 116 ✭✭Sajid Javid


    Islam has existed for 1000s of years and will be around 1000s more.


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    #256
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    If an imam says xxxx about gays he does not represent all muslims.

    Yet his followers will continue to gleefully follow and attend his teachings regardless, with no media exposure and no complaints from anyone.

    When a priest in Kilkenny wrongly suggested something similar, people walked out of church. A Bishop has publically called it inappropriate language. Now the Capuchin Order has expressed their deep regret and outlined clearly their views for the inclusion of all


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    #257
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    And Africa as a continent is pretty much evenly split between Christians and Muslims who condemn homosexuality with a population of 40% Christian and 45% Muslim.

    My own experience is quite limited I admit but in that experience the Christians who have an issue with it condemn homosexuality as you say above. The Muslims I have encountered with issues about it however condemn the homosexual. More often than not expressing the view point they should be killed or at least imprisoned.

    The "hate the sin love the sinner" mentality is one I heard more often from Christians than Muslims. In fact I struggle now to recall a single Muslim expressing it to me. But this is _online forum_ Christians and Muslims mostly and we know that is not always representative either.

    So I wonder when we say "evenly split" are we being a little vague there as to what exactly the split entails and in what proportions? I have no idea - I have not actually looked at the stats for Africa. And in fact I would wonder if they even made that kind of distinction when compiling them?

    In their defense though - I would also suspect people conducting that research are prone to asking different questions of the two groups. Given the rep Muslims have - I would not at all be surprised to find studies of their attitudes to homosexuals specifically asked what should be done with / to homosexuals while studies of Christians simply did not think to / care to ask.

    I would have to read the studies in question I guess. To which African statistics do you refer specifically?


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    #258
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Harvey Weinstein wrote: »
    Aside from the video

    The fact remains that across the Muslim world the vast majority of Muslims hold dire attitudes towards Homosexuals. If you disagree with this statement then perhaps you could provide evidence to the contrary.

    Please point me to the survey that clarifies this
    You cannot get around this fact, and I would say that your denials are a grevious insult towards Homosexuals...and in fact should illustrate to Gays that when the time comes they will be abandoned when faced with Muslim pressure

    One of my children is gay, surprisingly, no pressure from Muslims, plenty of abuse from christians.
    The Birmingham school episode and the pitiful response by the contemporary left shows this is happening already

    Wheres your outrage at the westboro baptist church and their protests?


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    #259
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Andy Flaky Snowstorm wrote: »
    Yet his followers will continue to gleefully follow and attend his teachings regardless, with no media exposure and no complaints from anyone.

    When a priest in Kilkenny wrongly suggested something similar, people walked out of church. A Bishop has publically called it inappropriate language. Now the Capuchin Order has expressed their deep regret and outlined clearly their views for the inclusion of all

    The same goes for westboro baptist church, where's your outrage there? A bishop? Who was the priest? Link tonthe story and the bishops comment please.


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    #260
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    The same goes for westboro baptist church, where's your outrage there? A bishop? Who was the priest? Link tonthe story and the bishops comment please.

    It made headline news today/yesterday incase you missed it:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/
    Needless to say Tom Forde will either need to resign, or clarify his comments.

    Do the Baptists call for jail or death to the gay folks?
    Doubt it somehow.


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    #261
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Which of course is only a good thing up to a point! We certainly as a society should not be giving complete free reign to parents in choosing what is best for their own children. And thankfully we as a society actually are not doing that. Their ability to make that determination is curtailed and limited in all kinds of ways in fact.


    I wasn’t suggesting that parents be given completely free reign in choosing what is best for their own children. It’s only my personal belief that parents do know what is best for their own children. I don’t think other adults who are not the children's parents are in any position to know what is best for someone else’s children in terms of the religious, moral, intellectual, social and physical education of their own children. The State too is limited by numerous laws in terms of it’s reach into the private affairs of the family as the fundamental unit of society.

    That’s not something that society as such really has any control over, and that’s a good thing as far as I’m concerned because it has been demonstrated throughout history that it is better for children to remain with their parents where this is possible as opposed to separating children from their parents and raising them in the care of the State.

    Those would really be extreme examples though as opposed to what we’re talking about here which is a conflict of cultural values.


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    #262
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    And for the 17th time on this site, I'll give the following statements.

    Catholic church's problem: Clergy.
    Islam's problem: Congregation.

    Muslims in Ireland: Like Americans visiting Ireland.
    Muslims in their own countries: Alabama on steroids.


    I've been to Sharia areas and it's quite different to the craic you'd have with Mohammad in IT. I don't personally have an issue with individual Muslims. They're sound. But once there's enough in an area that their religion compels them to act according to their religion, it comes up against everything the West stands for.

    Is that a bad thing to say? No. I believe the vast majority of Muslims are sound and have no problem with homosexuality for example. The problems crop up when there's enough of a community that those personal beliefs need be forgotten because the religion is so harsh that people need to conform.

    It's barely arguable to be honest. It's peer pressure religious worship that causes the issues. The West have largely moved past that and we're happy to tell someone to fak off. The same can't be said for "ghettos" where like it or not, they have to follow the religion closely.


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    #263
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    And for the 17th time on this site, I'll give the following statements.

    Catholic church's problem: Clergy.
    Islam's problem: Congregation.

    Muslims in Ireland: Like Americans visiting Ireland.
    Muslims in their own countries: Alabama on steroids.


    I've been to Sharia areas and it's quite different to the craic you'd have with Mohammad in IT. I don't personally have an issue with individual Muslims. They're sound. But once there's enough in an area that their religion compels them to act according to their religion, it comes up against everything the West stands for.

    Is that a bad thing to say? No. I believe the vast majority of Muslims are sound and have no problem with homosexuality for example. The problems crop up when there's enough of a community that those personal beliefs need be forgotten because the religion is so harsh that people need to conform.

    It's barely arguable to be honest. It's peer pressure religious worship that causes the issues. The West have largely moved past that and we're happy to tell someone to fak off. The same can't be said for "ghettos" where like it or not, they have to follow the religion closely.


    Do you really think it’s an issue of peer pressure due to religious worship, or is it an issue of peer pressure due to culture, and religion is used as a convenient excuse?


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    #264
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Do you really think it’s an issue of peer pressure due to religious worship, or is it an issue of peer pressure due to culture, and religion is used as a convenient excuse?

    Religion imo.

    I used to be friends with a few rich Afghani tea traders here in Vietnam. Alone, few beers nay bother. Together, it's tea and cokes. They act based on who's watching.


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    #265
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Andy Flaky Snowstorm wrote: »
    It made headline news today/yesterday incase you missed it:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/
    Needless to say Tom Forde will either need to resign, or clarify his comments.

    Do the Baptists call for jail or death to the gay folks?
    Doubt it somehow.

    I did miss it, so one priest said that, does he speak for all christians?

    Maybe look up the westboro baptist church and see hiw vile they are for yourself.


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    #266
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Wheres your outrage at the westboro baptist church and their protests?

    Twice (Three times now) you mention 'wesboro' in 'whaboutery', which on the last count has a gongregation of 40 (four. zero.) essentially it's just a small family (the Phelps) based cult organisation.

    It is also rejected and rightly condemned by all mainstream Christians and is denounced by the Southern Baptist Conventiion.


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    #267
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Religion imo.

    I used to be friends with a few rich Afghani tea traders here in Vietnam. Alone, few beers nay bother. Together, it's tea and cokes. They act based on who's watching.

    Reminds me of a woman i know live in Kells, mid 40's and still wint touch a drink or ciggy when the mammy is around.


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    #268
    NaFirinne
    Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭NaFirinne


    Could it be that certain groups are subconsciously influenced by the great deceiver. So even when on the surface they have different and even totally contradicting Ideals and even in smaller groups appear virtuous and out for the greater good...in the end, they all come together to support each other against Christ and the christian message of repentance and faith.


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    #269
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    So I wonder when we say "evenly split" are we being a little vague there as to what exactly the split entails and in what proportions? I have no idea - I have not actually looked at the stats for Africa. And in fact I would wonder if they even made that kind of distinction when compiling them?

    In their defense though - I would also suspect people conducting that research are prone to asking different questions of the two groups. Given the rep Muslims have - I would not at all be surprised to find studies of their attitudes to homosexuals specifically asked what should be done with / to homosexuals while studies of Christians simply did not think to / care to ask.

    I would have to read the studies in question I guess. To which African statistics do you refer specifically?


    I’m not referring to any studies specifically when I mentioned the African population of both Muslims and Christians, but rather I was making the point that the poster I was replying to seemed to ignore the fact that there are many more Christians globally than just those in Europe or the US.

    The point I’m getting at is that I don’t think condemnation of homosexuality really a product of any specific religion, but rather one of culture, and religions tapped into that and formed their ideas around it, rather than the other way around. I think the correlation between the majority of people who have issues with homosexuality and are also either Christian or Muslim is simply a question of numbers as opposed to the idea that they condemn homosexuality or homosexuals because an old book tells them to. I think that’s a rather simplistic correlation that ignores many cultural factors which influence their condemnation of anything which is outside of their cultural norms within their own culture.


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    #270
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    I did miss it, so one priest said that, does he speak for all christians?


    Nope, hence the media exposure, Bishops intervention (with public aplogoy), the immediate public walkout, and a likely resignation to follow.

    The question is, would any of the same have happened within the next largest religion, of course not.


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    #271
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Andy Flaky Snowstorm wrote: »
    Twice (Three times now) you mention 'wesboro' in 'whaboutery', which on the last count has a gongregation of 40 (four. zero.) essentially it's just a small family (the Phelps) based cult organisation.

    It is also rejected and rightly condemned by all mainstream Christians and is denounced by the Southern Baptist Conventiion.

    Someone quoted one imam, even if hebhas a congregation of 10,000 its miniscual compared to the Billion muslims across the world.

    The point is you get nutjobs/extremists in ALL religions yet heres you lads banging the anti islam drum loud and proud.


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