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Religious hate-speech in the UK or fearless speaker of truth?

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    #272
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    People have been hounded out of their homes.
    Lets face it, if this was a BBC or an RTE interview concerning a sensitive topic and the person's face was pixelated out with the voice distorted, you wouldn't bat an eyelid.


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    #273
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    People have been hounded out of their homes.
    Lets face it, if this was a BBC or an RTE interview concerning a sensitive topic and the person's face was pixelated out with the voice distorted, you wouldn't bat an eyelid.

    True, but Tommy Robinson wouldn't be considered a credible journalist outside of his immediate fan base, whereas professional journalists from the BBC or RTE would. Tommy Robinson is considered by many to be professional shít stirrer, has convictions for fraud, and is an anti-Islamic far right activist. He's not exactly unbiased, now is he?


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    #274
    BBFAN
    Registered Users Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭BBFAN


    recedite wrote: »
    People have been hounded out of their homes.
    Lets face it, if this was a BBC or an RTE interview concerning a sensitive topic and the person's face was pixelated out with the voice distorted, you wouldn't bat an eyelid.

    You seem to be on your own here recedite in defending this low life pond scum.

    Have you ever heard of the phrase if you meet assholes all day it's probably you who's the asshole?


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    #275
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    BBFAN wrote: »
    You seem to be on your own here recedite in defending this low life pond scum.

    Have you ever heard of the phrase if you meet assholes all day it's probably you who's the asshole?
    Hello, and welcome to the forum. Please read the rules.


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    #276
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,151 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    recedite wrote: »
    Hello, and welcome to the forum. Please read the rules.

    The irony


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    #277
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    recedite wrote: »
    OK so you just watched the interview with the actual kid who squirted the water bottle saying a different kid was involved when Jamal's arm got broken. Then you watched the interview of the actual parent of that other kid. And you dismiss these people as "randomers", no better than "actors". It seems you are really going out of your way to discredit TR's journalism, even to the point of dismissing primary source material as being irrelevant.

    I seen the interview where, even if it is who it is claimed to be, they were not there and are relating a story their kid told them. Can you not see the huge bias? Can you not here the multiple ways in which this seems to falls apart when you look at it for plausibility.


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    #278
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    True, but Tommy Robinson wouldn't be considered a credible journalist outside of his immediate fan base, whereas professional journalists from the BBC or RTE would. Tommy Robinson is considered by many to be professional shstirrer...
    So we are back to this dilemma again; mainstream reporters won't do the reporting, but when Tommy fills the gap he gets labelled "a $hit stirrer."
    That's why I say In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
    He doesn't need to be an excellent investigative reporter when he's the only reporter on the scene.


    But there I go making assumptions again, I assumed he really did go up to 'Uddersfield and interview the people.

    Maybe you're right, and maybe he employed actors and a rented a film studio instead. Maybe he went to Hollywood and used the same studio they used for the fake moon landings (if you like CTs, you may as well dream big :pac:).


    Anyway, moving on, here's an interesting opinion piece.
    It isn’t ‘too much freedom of speech’, or being ‘given a platform’, to use the modern parlance, that has energised the Tommy Robinson phenomenon, as censorious leftists would have us believe. Rather, it is their censorship that did that. It is the stymying of open debate that nurtures the space for the rise of self-styled and often quite eccentric ‘truth-speakers’
    We end up with a darkly symbiotic relationship: the left needs Tommy Robinson, in order to prove that its ridiculous thesis about the return of fascism is correct, and Tommy Robinson needs the left because it is the left’s fear, loathing and pursuit of him that furnishes him with political importance and substance.


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    #279
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,978 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    recedite wrote: »
    So we are back to this dilemma again; mainstream reporters won't do the reporting, but when Tommy fills the gap he gets labelled "a $hit stirrer."
    .............




    ...which is what he's paid to be. More specifically a spreader of anti-muslim propaganda.


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    #280
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    So we are back to this dilemma again; mainstream reporters won't do the reporting, but when Tommy fills the gap he gets labelled "a $hit stirrer."

    If mainstream reporters, including the entirety of the tabloid press, won't report on a story, there either isn't a story (my guess) or you're heading into the realms of gargantuan conspiracy theory. So yeah, i think he's making this stuff up, which as has already been pointed out, is what he's being paid to do.


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    #281
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    BBFAN wrote: »
    You seem to be on your own here recedite in defending this low life pond scum. Have you ever heard of the phrase if you meet assholes all day it's probably you who's the asshole?
    No need for that kind of language hereabouts.
    recedite wrote: »
    Hello, and welcome to the forum. Please read the rules.
    No need for that kind of back-seat modding hereabouts.

    Thanking youze.


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    #282
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Afternoon all!
    King Mob wrote: »
    Who has been pulling which strings and why?
    recedite wrote: »
    I don't know. Its probably a mixture. Some people in influential positions like this guy.
    recedite wrote: »
    From the link..That's it. He knew that in advance of any prosecutions. And he's in a position where he gets to say who gets prosecuted and who does not. Just think about that for a second. And there are loads more just like him in control of local councils, boroughs, police, social services etc.
    recedite wrote: »
    There is an allegiance there, that goes beyond the allegiance to the state and/or the wider society.
    In line with the recent update to the forum rules, King Mob has requested adjudication on a general claim which recedite has made.

    The links above show a small number of the relevant posts, but the essence of recedite's claim is that, in the UK, people who self-describe as islamic are engaged in a range of actions in support of other people who also self-describe as islamic - such actions including attempting to delay or pervert the course of justice.

    To date, recedite has provided no evidence to support this claim.

    @recedite - can you please supply evidence which backs up your claim so that the mod team can assess it?

    Thanks.


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    #283
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    King mob is confusing two different issues.
    The "pulling of strings" which he has taken offence to referred to Paypal making it more difficult for TR to crowdfund, and as I mentioned a guy who has been unlawfully imprisoned should have every right and opportunity to raise necessary funds to achieve his freedom. If an appeal is successful, as this one was, then the appellant is considered vindicated.
    Here is my original post on that.
    recedite wrote: »
    Somebody has been pulling strings again. But are you not at all concerned that private companies such as these have the power to censor and control public political debate and activity?
    As the crowdfunding donations were used primarily to launch a very expensive Supreme Court appeal to get Tommy out of jail during his unlawful imprisonment, it seems that the pursuit of justice is now contrary to paypal's "acceptable use policy".
    When King mob demanded to know who was pulling these strings I replied..
    recedite wrote: »
    I don't know. Its probably a mixture. Some people in influential positions like this guy. Others like yourself, people who feel some sense of self-satisfaction when they feel they are "punching a nazi". Paypal will easily cave in to such people because "corporate values" as always, are really only to make money and to get more subscribers.
    The original conviction is considered wrongful. Can you not accept that fundamental fact?


    King Mobs second ambition is to trick me into coming up with a racist conspiracy theory, so that he can nail me. Again I replied in a way that did not give him satisfaction. Even so, he has gone ahead with this allegation against me.


    Its true I laughed at some of the things Nazir Afzal said (in the link quoted by the mod above) ...
    victims were not targeted because they were white but because they were vulnerable and their vulnerability caused them to seek out “warmth, love, transport, mind-numbing substances, drugs, alcohol and food”. “Who offers those things? In certain parts of the country, the place they go is the night-time economy,” he says. “Where you have Pakistani men, Asian men, disproportionately employed in the night-time economy, they are going to be more involved in this kind of activity than perhaps white men are. We keep hearing people talk about a problem in the north and the Midlands, and that’s where you have lots of minicab drivers, lots of people employed in takeaways, from that kind of background. If you have a preponderance of Asians working in those fields, some of that number, a very small number of those people, will take advantage of the girls who have moved into their sphere of influence. It’s tragic.
    And I asked where are all the Chinese rape gangs, after all they work nights more than anybody.
    There is no religious basis for this. These men were not religious. Islam says that alcohol, drugs, rape and abuse are all forbidden, yet these men were surrounded by all of these things. So how can anyone say that these men were driven by their religion to do this kind of thing?
    Nor do I accept that a misogynous religion founded by a prophet who "married" a child has nothing to do with these crimes which went unpunished in the various northern towns for so long.


    If a lack of respect for Islam is my crime, then I plead guilty.


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    #284
    BBFAN
    Registered Users Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭BBFAN


    Has his conviction been overturned?


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    #285
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    If a lack of respect for Islam is my crime, then I plead guilty.

    I don't have much respect for Islam, Christianity, Hindu, or any of the other major religions, and I doubt anyone would classify that as a crime. However I personally believe that suggesting that a follower of any of these religions is somehow guilty of the crimes of any or all other member of the same religion, simply for sharing the same belief system, is bigoted in the extreme unless supported by very strong evidence to the contrary. Where such suggestions come from those who also have a broad anti-immigrant agenda, my belief if that those suggestions are both biased and bigoted.


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    #286
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    However I personally believe that suggesting that a follower of any of these religions is somehow guilty of the crimes of any or all other member of the same religion, simply for sharing the same belief system, is bigoted in the extreme.
    Can you quote the post where this claim was made, please?
    Otherwise strawmanning must be assumed on your part.


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    #287
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    recedite wrote: »
    Can you quote the post where this claim was made, please?
    Otherwise strawmanning must be assumed on your part.

    The last paragraph of post 283 is the closest one to hand.


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    #288
    BBFAN
    Registered Users Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭BBFAN


    BBFAN wrote: »
    Has his conviction been overturned?

    No answer to this then?


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    #289
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    CramCycle wrote: »
    The last paragraph of post 283 is the closest one to hand.
    Do you mean this?....
    Nor do I accept that a misogynous religion founded by a prophet who "married" a child has nothing to do with these crimes which went unpunished in the various northern towns for so long.

    If a lack of respect for Islam is my crime, then I plead guilty.


    I was going to say you could find better examples on the very first page of this thread, but when I went back a saw the words "not" and "nor" in there.
    Alfredo Prehistoric Tendon wrote: »
    Any guesses of what the mugshots of the similar Telfod & Ofxord gangs might be like?

    ljm23JY.png & zjDewN3.png

    Since 2011, groups of men have been prosecuted for organised sexgrooming crimes against 'hundreds of girls' in Rochdale, Rotherham, Oxford, Telford, Leeds, Birmingham, Norwich, Burnley, High Wycombe, Leicester, Dewsbury, Middlesbrough, Peterborough, Bristol, Halifax and Newcastle...

    In only two of those cases were the men 'were not' of South Asian heritage.
    Of all the victims, only three 'were not' white teenage girls.

    Still of course, let's not pin this on a cultural nor any religious aspects.


    So yeah, I guess my post is the closest here to blaming all muslims for rape crimes.
    Still nowhere near close enough though, to justify your insinuation.


  • Options
    #290
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    BBFAN wrote: »
    No answer to this then?
    I've no time for somebody who jumps in near the end of a thread with insults directed at me, but at the same time is too lazy to read the same thread where the answers they seek are clearly laid out.


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    #291
    BBFAN
    Registered Users Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭BBFAN


    recedite wrote: »
    I've no time for somebody who jumps in near the end of a thread with insults directed at me, but at the same time is too lazy to read the same thread where the answers they seek are clearly laid out.

    I've read the whole thread. I'm simply asking a question that has a yes or no answer?


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    #292
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    recedite wrote: »
    Do you mean this?....



    I was going to say you could find better examples on the very first page of this thread, but when I went back a saw the words "not" and "nor" in there.




    So yeah, I guess my post is the closest here to blaming all muslims for rape crimes.
    Still nowhere near close enough though, to justify your insinuation.
    It's not an insinuation. You said that you refuse to believe that their religion had nothing to do with the crimes they commited. This means you are saying their religion is to blame or at least a significant factor. Plenty of pedophilic people in other religions, including rings. Do you also believe that Catholicism, and others are also one of the main factors with these people? Or could it just be the people?
    recedite wrote: »
    I've no time for somebody who jumps in near the end of a thread with insults directed at me, but at the same time is too lazy to read the same thread where the answers they seek are clearly laid out.
    It looked like he was defending you?


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    #293
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    Can you quote the post where this claim was made, please?
    Otherwise strawmanning must be assumed on your part.

    Your opening post on the thread relates to Muslim rape gangs and you go on to laud Tommy Robinson / Yaxley Lennon throughout this thread.
    recedite wrote: »
    Yet another muslim* rape gang (this one operating 2004-2011 in Huddersfield, England)finally brought to justiceActivist Tommy Robinson was snatched off the street and imprisoned for talking about this.

    One of Robinson / Yaxley Lennon's better know quotes;
    “Every single Muslim watching this video on YouTube, on 7/7 you got away with killing and maiming British citizens... you had better understand that we have built a network from one end of the country to the other end... and the Islamic community will feel the full force of the English Defense League if we see any of our British citizens killed, maimed, or hurt on British soil ever again"

    Another of your own posts which generalise crime by religion and ethnicity;
    recedite wrote: »
    There's two motives here. One is that Prof Dowling "failed the student" and the other is that he insulted Islam.
    Now given that loads of students fail their exams, and it's normally the students own fault, the first is not a great motive.
    And given that Pakistanis are known to get very upset about blasphemers and regularly kill them, the second motive would appear to be more significant.
    In reality the guy would have mixed the two motives together in his head. He would have used the blasphemy thing to justify the morality of the murder, in his own mind.

    But as usual, SMACL seeks to deflect and to justify. He will do anything to excuse the despicable behaviour that stems from Islamic ideologies, and instead he prefers to continue lambasting the "racists" and the "Islamophobes".

    For context, read the thread, from this post onwards.


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    #294
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    CramCycle wrote: »
    It looked like he was defending you?
    The guy arrived on this thread and immediately called me an asshole, which personal insult has still not been withdrawn.


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    #295
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    Another of your own posts which generalise crime by religion and ethnicity;
    For context, read the thread, from this post onwards.
    I asked you to back up a specific claim you made about this thread, and now you quote from a completely different thread.
    If you want to discuss why that guy's throat was cut, or why this guy's throat was cut, or why Christmas Market attacks have become an annual event in Europe, please do so on the appropriate thread.


    I take it then that you cannot provide a quote from this thread to back up your claim?


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    #296
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    I take it then that you cannot provide a quote from this thread to back up your claim?

    Which bit of “Every single Muslim watching this video on YouTube, on 7/7 you got away with killing and maiming British citizens... you had better understand that we have built a network from one end of the country to the other end... and the Islamic community will feel the full force of the English Defense League if we see any of our British citizens killed, maimed, or hurt on British soil ever again" does not exactly back up my claim?

    The thread in case you hadn't noticed is on religious hate speech, where my conjecture and that of many others is that Tommy Robinson is a hateful bigot. You seem to be his biggest fan boy around these parts and seem to have a problem accepting this fact.

    That said, I wouldn't want to let this distract you by the questions asked by the mod, so please do feel free to answer those first and come back to me when you're done.


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    #297
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    Which bit of “Every single Muslim watching this video on YouTube, on 7/7 you got away with killing and maiming British citizens... you had better understand that we have built a network from one end of the country to the other end... and the Islamic community will feel the full force of the English Defense League if we see any of our British citizens killed, maimed, or hurt on British soil ever again" does not exactly back up my claim?
    Why did you quote me then, and not Tommy Robinson, when you made the claim? You didn't mention his name at the time.


    Now that we have established you were referring to TR, the context of the quote needs to be considered.
    This was an intemperate remark made by a very upset Londoner many years ago, in the immediate aftermath of the gruesome murder of drummer Lee Rigby, whose throat was cut and head was halfway hacked off. People needed to vent their anger. But did TR then go about attacking all Muslims? No, he calmed down and put his arm around one.
    Mohammad Ansar wrote:
    In the midst of all this came the brutal killing of drummer Lee Rigby. The morning after, I joined the media junket in Woolwich. I felt we needed to not only condemn the attack but to promote unity among communities, to call for tolerance and to ask for people to search out peace. A few days later I met Tommy again, in the back streets of Newcastle, where an EDL rally was being held.
    We got into a heated debate almost immediately. I challenged him, claiming he was going to stoke fear and increase tensions. He was pumped. He wasn't listening. A sizeable crowd gathered quickly at the end of the road and our debate ended up being little more than a platform for Tommy to vent. And then it happened again. We both looked at each other, sighed, laughed and before I knew it, he had put his arm around me. A little taken aback, the anti-fascist in me despised it, but the person of faith accepted it. I had to laugh. How can we begin to build a bridge if I cannot accept a gesture, however cynical?
    It was only when I arrived in Bristol the next morning that Nicky Campbell showed me we had been "papped" and the picture was in the Sunday Mirror. The furore about the image spread around the world, particularly the Muslim world. It was the first and only time that I doubted the process and my conviction that dialogue was the way forward. But in the end, there was an overwhelming consensus that to accept Tommy's gesture (however cynical) was in line with the prophetic traditions.


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    #298
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    recedite wrote: »
    King mob is confusing two different issues.
    The "pulling of strings" which he has taken offence to referred to Paypal making it more difficult for TR to crowdfund

    When King mob demanded to know who was pulling these strings I replied..
    Then you can see my confusion with the issue when you claimed that person you linked to was "evidence" fro what I asked for:
    recedite wrote: »
    The example was actually a link.


    Recedite, The All-Pervading One

    And you can see why I subsequently asked you to provide any evidence that the person you linked to had ever unduly used his influence to do anything.

    You can also see my confusion when you continued with statements such as:
    recedite wrote: »
    He's not evil, but he is most definitely a follower of Islam. And he receives a nice salary from the UK taxpayer.

    From the link..That's it. He knew that in advance of any prosecutions. And he's in a position where he gets to say who gets prosecuted and who does not. Just think about that for a second.
    And there are loads more just like him in control of local councils, boroughs, police, social services etc..

    Recedite, The Wise One

    I then asked you to clarify what you mean by "loads more just like him". You dodged the question entirely.

    Further, imagine my confusion when you state things like:
    recedite wrote: »
    Part of the same "community" as they would call it themselves.
    recedite wrote: »
    You should know that multi-culturalism leads to multi-tribalism, and in England nowadays they have many different "communities".

    ...

    The one thing you can be sure of is that when the chips are down, members of a specific community will tend to have each other's backs.

    There is an allegiance there, that goes beyond the allegiance to the state and/or the wider society.

    So I again, ask you to clarify what you mean and what evidence you had that the person you originally pointed to had done anything undue with his power at all.
    No response.

    When I chased you down on this point after you ignored it, you posted:
    recedite wrote: »
    You misconstrued my earlier comments which were about the natural tendency of divided communities to be biased towards their own community. Added to the undeniable fact that British Asians/Muslims/Pakistanis have, through their own hard work (and quite a few "diversity placings") managed to get themselves into a large number of influential public office positions in recent years.

    Again, which leaves me confused.

    I again ask you for evidence for this, which shockingly leads you to ignore me.

    You then later appear to outline what you think the effect of the above is:
    recedite wrote: »
    A third option is that (compared to the general population) the Pakistani/Muslim gangs are way over represented in rape gang crimes, and only slightly over-represented in convictions.

    So you see how people might be confused that you are making the claim that Muslim/Asian judges and other officials are unduly using their power to shield fellow Muslims.

    Just to clarify now, you don't agree that Muslim/Asian judges and other officials are unduly using their power to shield fellow Muslims.
    Is that correct?
    recedite wrote: »
    King Mobs second ambition is to trick me into coming up with a racist conspiracy theory, so that he can nail me.
    I'm not tricking you into saying anything racist.
    I'm just pointing out that what you appear to have said is a racist conspiracy theory.
    You now, despite the posts quoted above and the judgment of the mods who reviewed the post, are saying that you don't buy into any conspiracy like Muslim/asian judges and other officals are unduly using their power to shield fellow Muslims..


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    #299
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    recedite wrote: »
    King mob is confusing two different issues.
    Your friendly mod team is discussing just one issue.

    In the links provided in the mod post above, you implied that people who self-describe as islamic are engaged in a range of actions in support of other people who also self-describe as islamic - such actions including attempting to delay or pervert the course of justice.

    Can you please provide evidence to back up your claim so that the mod team can assess whether the claim can be substantiated?

    Thank you.


  • Options
    #300
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    King Mob wrote: »
    [...]
    While recedite is out looking for evidence to support his claim or considering whether to retract it or leave it lapse owing to lack of supporting evidence, it's probably best that the person requesting the adjudication steps back from the discussion until the mod team has made a decision.


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    #301
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    Why did you quote me then, and not Tommy Robinson, when you made the claim? You didn't mention his name at the time.

    Nor did I mention your name. That said, you seem to be his biggest fanboy and the bulk of your posts in this thread are pushing his extremely dubious and highly bigoted worldview.


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