Trans people in UK could face rape charges if they don't reveal gender history

Michah · 10-06-2016 04:07PM #1

Trans activist Sophie Cook has warned that trans people in the UK may face rape charges if they don’t declare their gender history to sexual partners.

Under UK law, people who are unaware of the nature of a sex act are not able to give consent, meaning non-disclosure of gender history can be seen as a breach of the Sexual Offences Act 2003.

A recent Transjustice conference in London highlighted the legal repercussions that could be faced by trans people who do not wish to disclose their gender history to prospective sexual partners.

The Crown Prosecution Service said that every case is handled individually and transgender people do not automatically face rape charges if they stay silent about their history, but activists warn this is ambiguous.

Sophie continued: “By forcing transgender people to disclose their history to prospective partners the law is not only infringing their human rights it’s also reinforcing the bigoted idea that trans people are in some way abhorrent and something that people need to be warned about.

This may be an unpopular opinion but I personally would feel violated if I discovered a sexual partner was not forthcoming about their original gender.

I don't think rape is necessarily the right label for it but people certainly have a right to know.

Raging_Ninja · 10-06-2016 04:09PM

Well the CPS is willing to prosecute somebody for rape when there is CCTV evidence proving the contrary, so it wouldn't surprise me.

Fratton Fred · 10-06-2016 04:11PM

As long as they don't have a todger any more, I'm not all that fussed to be honest.

The Sidewards Man · 10-06-2016 04:12PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As long as they don't have a todger any more, I'm not all that fussed to be honest.

Nothing stopping them slapping on a strap on.

Its dead Jim · 10-06-2016 04:13PM

If anyone who isn't completely honest about themselves is a rapist then there is a lot of rapists in this world.

beach_walker · 10-06-2016 04:15PM

Michah wrote: »

This may be an unpopular opinion but I personally would feel violated if I discovered a sexual partner was not forthcoming about their original gender.

I don't think rape is necessarily the right label for it but people certainly have a right to know.

I agree. To be honest I don't see a whole lot of difference between this and the case where the woman was jailed for having sex with her friend while pretending to be someone else.

Otacon · 10-06-2016 04:19PM

beach_walker wrote: »

I agree. To be honest I don't see a whole lot of difference between this and the case where the woman was jailed for having sex with her friend while pretending to be someone else.

The operative word there is 'pretending'.

kjl · 10-06-2016 04:20PM

I met this girl once, she was absolutely stunning, honestly she was a perfect 10. We flirted and this led to kissing which led to me going back to her house.

Just before we get naked she says she has something to confess, she then told me she was trans and at first I couldn't believe it, no way not this girl, she was way to feminine. So I said prove it, which she did and there it was, the tiniest little willy I have ever seen. My 15 year old self would have run a mile, but I was really still very attracted to this girl so I though, f&*k it, you only live once.

Once I finished I had that sudden realisation of what I had done, I left and felt weird about it and as such never contacted her again.

Looking back on it now, I certainly don't think it was rape. I actually really did like the girl and I wish I was more grown up about my feelings at the time. I haven't actively gone looking for trans people since and I still consider myself straight but I don't know if I was in the same situation if I would turn them down, I think if you are attracted to someone it really doesn't matter what they have between their legs.

Really if anything, this law puts a huge negative view on trans people and I think that is the biggest shame. I would hope we are more grown up in Ireland since we passed gay marriage but I doubt it.

beach_walker · 10-06-2016 04:21PM

Otacon wrote: »

The operative word there is 'pretending'.

So if the guilty in that case sent in the paper work to identify as a man, then it'd be ok? Give over.

_Whimsical_ · 10-06-2016 04:27PM

Its dead Jim wrote: »

If anyone who isn't completely honest about themselves is a rapist then there is a lot of rapists in this world.

I don't think that's a fair comment.
Personally while I wouldn't call it rape I think it would be a real violation to not reveal a past of that nature to someone you're going to have sex with. Consent should be informed consent at all times and people should have the right to chose their own comfort zone in terms of who they share that level of physical intimacy with. Taking that choice from someone is robbing them of something quite deep and integral to their person.

ScumLord · 10-06-2016 04:32PM

kjl wrote: »

Looking back on it now, I certainly don't think it was rape.

Well that wouldn't be, she was up front and honest, maybe a bit late telling you but, it was your decision to go ahead based on that information.

I think they should be up front and honest. Many people get into relationships on the basis it will progress to starting a family. Finding out the person you're dating can't provide the other side of the equation would be upsetting. There are also going to be people that just don't accept that the transgender person has actually changed gender. They would see them as a man dressed up as a woman.

_Whimsical_ · 10-06-2016 04:32PM

kjl wrote: »

Looking back on it now, I certainly don't think it was rape. I actually really did like the girl and I wish I was more grown up about my feelings at the time. I haven't actively gone looking for trans people since and I still consider myself straight but I don't know if I was in the same situation if I would turn them down, I think if you are attracted to someone it really doesn't matter what they have between their legs.

Really if anything, this law puts a huge negative view on trans people and I think that is the biggest shame. I would hope we are more grown up in Ireland since we passed gay marriage but I doubt it.

I agree, your genitalia doesn't define you as a person and I am happy we live in a country where you can love and marry anyone you chose. However that's the whole crux of this issue : choice! You are entitled to choose.

You might have felt very differently about your experience if you were not given the option to choose in that situation.

I feel that if there's no expectation that trans people will be upfront and reveal their past to would be partners there'll be much more fear and confusion surrounding their motivation, which would be a great shame and a barrier to their acceptance by many.

super_furry · 10-06-2016 04:41PM

It's a tough one. I mean in an perfectly idealised world, trans people would have nothing to fear from telling people that the may be close to getting intimate with. However there is a danger that having been told that the girl that they has spent the last couple of hours snogging, was born a man, that people can turn violent. Telling people could definitely present a risk.

I really don't know what the answer is, I've never been in either position but like so many other things, it's far from black and white. Not sure though if it's a big enough issue in society that someone needs to make a law.

wakka12 · 10-06-2016 04:50PM

No thats stupid. Why should they have to tell you that they got surgery to change their body , because thats all that happened. They're the same person, but now they look the way they feel they are supposed to.

wakka12 · 10-06-2016 04:51PM

beach_walker wrote: »

I agree. To be honest I don't see a whole lot of difference between this and the case where the woman was jailed for having sex with her friend while pretending to be someone else.

How..?? She was pretending to be somebody which she is not. A trans person isn't pretending, they have just changed their body to look like somebody new. They arent pretending

Tombi! · 10-06-2016 04:56PM

Usually the argument for it is that there are often transwomen who are beaten/murdered for doing things with a bloke and the bloke goes off the deepend and decides to assault them. But post op or not. Still a scumbag move. But AFAIK, most transwomen tell their potential partners since y'know, rejection is kinda stronger when you find out someone's been born a man. And the whole potentially a victim assault if they ofund out later

wakka12 · 10-06-2016 04:56PM

Anyway, if a trans person gets into a relationship with somebody they are bound to find out eventually. Meeting old school friends..parents, seeing kids photos etc..it just has to happen eventually regardless of any law made. So really I think the government should butt out of this

ScumLord · 10-06-2016 05:06PM

wakka12 wrote: »

No thats stupid. Why should they have to tell you that they got surgery to change their body , because thats all that happened. They're the same person, but now they look the way they feel they are supposed to.

There is no "supposed to" in nature. You play the cards you dealt. I'm still a bit on the fence about gender surgery, I feel it's very close to body dysmorphia, having surgery for anything other than a medical condition just doesn't sit right with me. The human body is a temple that we don't understand well enough to do renovations on.

I understand these people feel strongly that they should be something else, but that's common throughout the human experience. Surgery can be a one way street, I don't think people should be risking their health to look a certain way. That extends to all cosmetic surgery that isn't reconstructive, although I also know reconstructive surgery benefits hugely from cosmetic surgery.

But, their body, their choice, it's just a decision I hope they think long and hard about, it is a risk that may not be worth taking for what they get out of it.

Maximus Alexander · 10-06-2016 05:06PM

If you manage to go through the whole act of having sex with someone without realising that they are trans, then what actual practical difference is there? How have they wronged you?

If the only issue is that when subsequently told about it you feel conflicted, then surely that's a you problem? And I say this as someone who admittedly would likely be turned off by knowing someone was trans; I just consider that a problem with me, not them.

wakka12 · 10-06-2016 05:10PM

ScumLord wrote: »

There is no "supposed to" in nature. You play the cards you dealt. I'm still a bit on the fence about gender surgery, I feel it's very close to body dysmorphia, having surgery for anything other than a medical condition just doesn't sit right with me. The human body is a temple that we don't understand well enough to do renovations on.

I understand these people feel strongly that they should be something else, but that's common throughout the human experience. Surgery can be a one way street, I don't think people should be risking their health to look a certain way. That extends to all cosmetic surgery that isn't reconstructive, although I also know reconstructive surgery benefits hugely from cosmetic surgery.

But, their body, their choice, it's just a decision I hope they think long and hard about, it is a risk that may not be worth taking for what they get out of it.

That sounds a bit archaic. Millions of people around the world have had cosmetic surgeries only to be delighted with their positive results, how thats a problem I don't know. Some people just hate the way they look, and sometimes it is because they look bad and people can suffer for looking bad. Not liking aspects of your appearance is not always because of body dysmorphia. If surgeries make people feel better about themselves then I don't see why there is a problem.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 10-06-2016 05:13PM

wakka12 wrote: »

No thats stupid. Why should they have to tell you that they got surgery to change their body , because thats all that happened. They're the same person, but now they look the way they feel they are supposed to.

What are you talking about, of course they should disclose this info. It's morally wrong not to.

wakka12 · 10-06-2016 05:16PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

What are you talking about, of course they should disclose this info. It's morally wrong not to.

Why is that? What about our pasts exactly is morally wrong not to disclose to partners? If I was homeless in the past would it be morally wrong not to tell them? If Im an orphan would it be? If I have some kind of severe mental health issue that isn't immediately apparent is it wrong not to? You see theres nowhere you can draw the line. People should just disclose what information they desire to or feel comfortable sharing.

ScumLord · 10-06-2016 05:17PM

wakka12 wrote: »

That sounds a bit archaic. Millions of people around the world have had cosmetic surgeries only to be delighted with their positive results, how thats a problem I don't know. Some people just hate the way they look, and sometimes it is because they look bad and people can suffer for looking bad. Not liking aspects of your appearance is not always because of body dysmorphia. If surgeries make people feel better about themselves then I don't see why there is a problem.

I get that, it's a valid point. I'm never going to stop someone having any surgery if they feel they need it. I'm just of the opinion to avoid surgery unless it's absolutely necessary.

Starokan · 10-06-2016 05:18PM

Difficult issue to address. If someone had to face a rape charge for what would be a consensual act then that is pretty messed up by any standard.

For me personally I would want to know if my prospective partner had changed gender. I suspect that may be the result of years of conditioning though - within society at present we are intrinsically defined by our gender, we are either male or female and I think even the most open minded of people would to a degree be influenced by this.

As trans becomes more mainstream and society evolves its possible that those growing up in such a society become more open and the past gender may make no difference at all

I think we are a long way away from this though.

As to the whole rape issue while I would want to know the past gender of a prospective partner I would not consider it rape if we engaged in a consensual sexual act.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 10-06-2016 05:19PM

wakka12 wrote: »

Why is that? What about our pasts exactly is morally wrong not to disclose to partners? If I was homeless in the past would it be morally wrong not to tell them? If Im an orphan would it be? If I have some kind of severe mental health issue that isn't immediately apparent is it wrong not to? You see theres nowhere you can draw the line. People should just disclose what information they desire to or feel comfortable sharing.

Because the transgender woman is still a biological male and it's wrong to misrepresent yourself to somebody you intend sleeping with. Can you not see how upset some heterosexual men would become in such a situation. They've a right to know in such circumstances.

10-06-2016 05:21PM

Rape is absolutely the wrong word/term.

super_furry · 10-06-2016 05:22PM

All this talk of "rape" laws for misrepresentation is on dodgy ground. Should a married man be charge with rape if he misrepresents himself as single to convince someone to sleep with him?

youreadthat · 10-06-2016 05:25PM

I could see the realisation that you'd slept with a Trans person after the event as potentially damaging to some people. Not the same as rape, but I can see it triggering similar mental disorders.

Galwayguy35 · 10-06-2016 05:26PM

A lot of them would still look like men anyway so it wouldn't be that hard to tell, but for the pre op ones who could pass off as a woman they should tell someone that they are thinking of having sex with the truth before the clothes come off and he sees what's down south.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 10-06-2016 05:30PM

youreadthat wrote: »

I could see the realisation that you'd slept with a Trans person after the event as potentially damaging to some people. Not the same as rape, but I can see it triggering similar mental disorders.

I'd imagine they'd pick up on it before the act in many cases. This is when it can turn nasty, because certain men will just lose their minds. They feel liked they've been tricked and emotions are running high.

For both parties well being it is best to disclose this information up front.

wakka12 · 10-06-2016 05:31PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Because the transgender woman is still a biological male and it's wrong to misrepresent yourself to somebody you intend sleeping with. Can you not see how upset some heterosexual men would become in such a situation. They've a right to know in such circumstances.

Unless the man stated that he's not comfortable sleeping with trans women then I don't see why she should be obligated state her birth gender.

Trans people in UK could face rape charges if they don't reveal gender history

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