Trans people in UK could face rape charges if they don't reveal gender history

Michah

Trans activist Sophie Cook has warned that trans people in the UK may face rape charges if they don’t declare their gender history to sexual partners.

Under UK law, people who are unaware of the nature of a sex act are not able to give consent, meaning non-disclosure of gender history can be seen as a breach of the Sexual Offences Act 2003.

A recent Transjustice conference in London highlighted the legal repercussions that could be faced by trans people who do not wish to disclose their gender history to prospective sexual partners.

The Crown Prosecution Service said that every case is handled individually and transgender people do not automatically face rape charges if they stay silent about their history, but activists warn this is ambiguous.

Sophie continued: “By forcing transgender people to disclose their history to prospective partners the law is not only infringing their human rights it’s also reinforcing the bigoted idea that trans people are in some way abhorrent and something that people need to be warned about.

This may be an unpopular opinion but I personally would feel violated if I discovered a sexual partner was not forthcoming about their original gender.

I don't think rape is necessarily the right label for it but people certainly have a right to know.

Raging_Ninja

Well the CPS is willing to prosecute somebody for rape when there is CCTV evidence proving the contrary, so it wouldn't surprise me.

Fratton Fred

As long as they don't have a todger any more, I'm not all that fussed to be honest.

The Sidewards Man

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As long as they don't have a todger any more, I'm not all that fussed to be honest.

Nothing stopping them slapping on a strap on.

Its dead Jim

If anyone who isn't completely honest about themselves is a rapist then there is a lot of rapists in this world.

beach_walker

Michah wrote: »

This may be an unpopular opinion but I personally would feel violated if I discovered a sexual partner was not forthcoming about their original gender.

I don't think rape is necessarily the right label for it but people certainly have a right to know.

I agree. To be honest I don't see a whole lot of difference between this and the case where the woman was jailed for having sex with her friend while pretending to be someone else.

Otacon

beach_walker wrote: »

I agree. To be honest I don't see a whole lot of difference between this and the case where the woman was jailed for having sex with her friend while pretending to be someone else.

The operative word there is 'pretending'.

kjl

I met this girl once, she was absolutely stunning, honestly she was a perfect 10. We flirted and this led to kissing which led to me going back to her house.

Just before we get naked she says she has something to confess, she then told me she was trans and at first I couldn't believe it, no way not this girl, she was way to feminine. So I said prove it, which she did and there it was, the tiniest little willy I have ever seen. My 15 year old self would have run a mile, but I was really still very attracted to this girl so I though, f&*k it, you only live once.

Once I finished I had that sudden realisation of what I had done, I left and felt weird about it and as such never contacted her again.

Looking back on it now, I certainly don't think it was rape. I actually really did like the girl and I wish I was more grown up about my feelings at the time. I haven't actively gone looking for trans people since and I still consider myself straight but I don't know if I was in the same situation if I would turn them down, I think if you are attracted to someone it really doesn't matter what they have between their legs.

Really if anything, this law puts a huge negative view on trans people and I think that is the biggest shame. I would hope we are more grown up in Ireland since we passed gay marriage but I doubt it.

beach_walker

Otacon wrote: »

The operative word there is 'pretending'.

So if the guilty in that case sent in the paper work to identify as a man, then it'd be ok? Give over.

_Whimsical_

Its dead Jim wrote: »

If anyone who isn't completely honest about themselves is a rapist then there is a lot of rapists in this world.

I don't think that's a fair comment.
Personally while I wouldn't call it rape I think it would be a real violation to not reveal a past of that nature to someone you're going to have sex with. Consent should be informed consent at all times and people should have the right to chose their own comfort zone in terms of who they share that level of physical intimacy with. Taking that choice from someone is robbing them of something quite deep and integral to their person.

ScumLord

kjl wrote: »

Looking back on it now, I certainly don't think it was rape.

Well that wouldn't be, she was up front and honest, maybe a bit late telling you but, it was your decision to go ahead based on that information.


I think they should be up front and honest. Many people get into relationships on the basis it will progress to starting a family. Finding out the person you're dating can't provide the other side of the equation would be upsetting. There are also going to be people that just don't accept that the transgender person has actually changed gender. They would see them as a man dressed up as a woman.

_Whimsical_

kjl wrote: »

Looking back on it now, I certainly don't think it was rape. I actually really did like the girl and I wish I was more grown up about my feelings at the time. I haven't actively gone looking for trans people since and I still consider myself straight but I don't know if I was in the same situation if I would turn them down, I think if you are attracted to someone it really doesn't matter what they have between their legs.

Really if anything, this law puts a huge negative view on trans people and I think that is the biggest shame. I would hope we are more grown up in Ireland since we passed gay marriage but I doubt it.

I agree, your genitalia doesn't define you as a person and I am happy we live in a country where you can love and marry anyone you chose. However that's the whole crux of this issue : choice! You are entitled to choose.

You might have felt very differently about your experience if you were not given the option to choose in that situation.

I feel that if there's no expectation that trans people will be upfront and reveal their past to would be partners there'll be much more fear and confusion surrounding their motivation, which would be a great shame and a barrier to their acceptance by many.

super_furry

It's a tough one. I mean in an perfectly idealised world, trans people would have nothing to fear from telling people that the may be close to getting intimate with. However there is a danger that having been told that the girl that they has spent the last couple of hours snogging, was born a man, that people can turn violent. Telling people could definitely present a risk.

I really don't know what the answer is, I've never been in either position but like so many other things, it's far from black and white. Not sure though if it's a big enough issue in society that someone needs to make a law.

wakka12

No thats stupid. Why should they have to tell you that they got surgery to change their body , because thats all that happened. They're the same person, but now they look the way they feel they are supposed to.

wakka12

beach_walker wrote: »

I agree. To be honest I don't see a whole lot of difference between this and the case where the woman was jailed for having sex with her friend while pretending to be someone else.

How..?? She was pretending to be somebody which she is not. A trans person isn't pretending, they have just changed their body to look like somebody new. They arent pretending

Tombi!

Usually the argument for it is that there are often transwomen who are beaten/murdered for doing things with a bloke and the bloke goes off the deepend and decides to assault them. But post op or not. Still a scumbag move. But AFAIK, most transwomen tell their potential partners since y'know, rejection is kinda stronger when you find out someone's been born a man. And the whole potentially a victim assault if they ofund out later

wakka12

Anyway, if a trans person gets into a relationship with somebody they are bound to find out eventually. Meeting old school friends..parents, seeing kids photos etc..it just has to happen eventually regardless of any law made. So really I think the government should butt out of this

ScumLord

wakka12 wrote: »

No thats stupid. Why should they have to tell you that they got surgery to change their body , because thats all that happened. They're the same person, but now they look the way they feel they are supposed to.

There is no "supposed to" in nature. You play the cards you dealt. I'm still a bit on the fence about gender surgery, I feel it's very close to body dysmorphia, having surgery for anything other than a medical condition just doesn't sit right with me. The human body is a temple that we don't understand well enough to do renovations on.

I understand these people feel strongly that they should be something else, but that's common throughout the human experience. Surgery can be a one way street, I don't think people should be risking their health to look a certain way. That extends to all cosmetic surgery that isn't reconstructive, although I also know reconstructive surgery benefits hugely from cosmetic surgery.

But, their body, their choice, it's just a decision I hope they think long and hard about, it is a risk that may not be worth taking for what they get out of it.

Maximus Alexander

If you manage to go through the whole act of having sex with someone without realising that they are trans, then what actual practical difference is there? How have they wronged you?

If the only issue is that when subsequently told about it you feel conflicted, then surely that's a you problem? And I say this as someone who admittedly would likely be turned off by knowing someone was trans; I just consider that a problem with me, not them.

wakka12

ScumLord wrote: »

There is no "supposed to" in nature. You play the cards you dealt. I'm still a bit on the fence about gender surgery, I feel it's very close to body dysmorphia, having surgery for anything other than a medical condition just doesn't sit right with me. The human body is a temple that we don't understand well enough to do renovations on.

I understand these people feel strongly that they should be something else, but that's common throughout the human experience. Surgery can be a one way street, I don't think people should be risking their health to look a certain way. That extends to all cosmetic surgery that isn't reconstructive, although I also know reconstructive surgery benefits hugely from cosmetic surgery.

But, their body, their choice, it's just a decision I hope they think long and hard about, it is a risk that may not be worth taking for what they get out of it.

That sounds a bit archaic. Millions of people around the world have had cosmetic surgeries only to be delighted with their positive results, how thats a problem I don't know. Some people just hate the way they look, and sometimes it is because they look bad and people can suffer for looking bad. Not liking aspects of your appearance is not always because of body dysmorphia. If surgeries make people feel better about themselves then I don't see why there is a problem.

DEFTLEFTHAND

wakka12 wrote: »

No thats stupid. Why should they have to tell you that they got surgery to change their body , because thats all that happened. They're the same person, but now they look the way they feel they are supposed to.

What are you talking about, of course they should disclose this info. It's morally wrong not to.

wakka12

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

What are you talking about, of course they should disclose this info. It's morally wrong not to.

Why is that? What about our pasts exactly is morally wrong not to disclose to partners? If I was homeless in the past would it be morally wrong not to tell them? If Im an orphan would it be? If I have some kind of severe mental health issue that isn't immediately apparent is it wrong not to? You see theres nowhere you can draw the line. People should just disclose what information they desire to or feel comfortable sharing.

ScumLord

wakka12 wrote: »

That sounds a bit archaic. Millions of people around the world have had cosmetic surgeries only to be delighted with their positive results, how thats a problem I don't know. Some people just hate the way they look, and sometimes it is because they look bad and people can suffer for looking bad. Not liking aspects of your appearance is not always because of body dysmorphia. If surgeries make people feel better about themselves then I don't see why there is a problem.

I get that, it's a valid point. I'm never going to stop someone having any surgery if they feel they need it. I'm just of the opinion to avoid surgery unless it's absolutely necessary.

Starokan

Difficult issue to address. If someone had to face a rape charge for what would be a consensual act then that is pretty messed up by any standard.

For me personally I would want to know if my prospective partner had changed gender. I suspect that may be the result of years of conditioning though - within society at present we are intrinsically defined by our gender, we are either male or female and I think even the most open minded of people would to a degree be influenced by this.

As trans becomes more mainstream and society evolves its possible that those growing up in such a society become more open and the past gender may make no difference at all

I think we are a long way away from this though.

As to the whole rape issue while I would want to know the past gender of a prospective partner I would not consider it rape if we engaged in a consensual sexual act.

DEFTLEFTHAND

wakka12 wrote: »

Why is that? What about our pasts exactly is morally wrong not to disclose to partners? If I was homeless in the past would it be morally wrong not to tell them? If Im an orphan would it be? If I have some kind of severe mental health issue that isn't immediately apparent is it wrong not to? You see theres nowhere you can draw the line. People should just disclose what information they desire to or feel comfortable sharing.

Because the transgender woman is still a biological male and it's wrong to misrepresent yourself to somebody you intend sleeping with. Can you not see how upset some heterosexual men would become in such a situation. They've a right to know in such circumstances.

Rape is absolutely the wrong word/term.

super_furry

All this talk of "rape" laws for misrepresentation is on dodgy ground. Should a married man be charge with rape if he misrepresents himself as single to convince someone to sleep with him?

youreadthat

I could see the realisation that you'd slept with a Trans person after the event as potentially damaging to some people. Not the same as rape, but I can see it triggering similar mental disorders.

Galwayguy35

A lot of them would still look like men anyway so it wouldn't be that hard to tell, but for the pre op ones who could pass off as a woman they should tell someone that they are thinking of having sex with the truth before the clothes come off and he sees what's down south.

DEFTLEFTHAND

youreadthat wrote: »

I could see the realisation that you'd slept with a Trans person after the event as potentially damaging to some people. Not the same as rape, but I can see it triggering similar mental disorders.

I'd imagine they'd pick up on it before the act in many cases. This is when it can turn nasty, because certain men will just lose their minds. They feel liked they've been tricked and emotions are running high.

For both parties well being it is best to disclose this information up front.

wakka12

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Because the transgender woman is still a biological male and it's wrong to misrepresent yourself to somebody you intend sleeping with. Can you not see how upset some heterosexual men would become in such a situation. They've a right to know in such circumstances.

Unless the man stated that he's not comfortable sleeping with trans women then I don't see why she should be obligated state her birth gender.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3BY72RF8vc

wakka12

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

A lot of them would still look like men anyway so it wouldn't be that hard to tell, but for the pre op ones who could pass off as a woman they should tell someone that they are thinking of having sex with the truth before the clothes come off and he sees what's down south.

Yeah cause nobody would touch those manly looking trans women anyway am I right

osarusan

Hmmm...this 'rape by deception' is very very dodgy ground indeed in terms of what would need to be disclosed and what constitutes deception.

Who decides what needs to be disclosed and what doesn't need to be disclosed?

Is there a difference between non-disclosure and non-disclosure through pretense?

Galwayguy35

wakka12 wrote: »

Yeah cause nobody would touch those manly looking trans women anyway am I right

No idea what yours or anyone elses sexual preferences are, just know what mine are.

No need to sound so outraged at my opinion on the subject.

wakka12

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

No idea what yours or anyone elses sexual preferences are, just know what mine are.

No need to sound so outraged at my opinion on the subject.

Because you're setting up different standards for trans women depending on how they look? Does that not seem a bit ridiculous? You say trans women who look masculine don't need to disclose because we can all tell, but trans women who pass as women need to because they can't go around deceiving people.

The only reason I find this annoying is because men who sleep with trans women don't mind until they find out the woman is trans. Why is such a big deal if you didnt even mind sleeping with her in the first place? I hate throwing out the 'isms' and 'phobic' terms will nilly but I really think that is a case of transphobia.

Galwayguy35

wakka12 wrote: »

Because you're setting up different standards for trans women depending on how they look? Does that not seem a bit ridiculous? You say trans women who look masculine don't need to disclose because we can all tell, but trans women who pass as women need to because they can't go around deceiving people.

The only reason I find this annoying is because men who sleep with trans women don't mind until they find out the woman is trans. Why is such a big deal if you didnt even mind sleeping with her in the first place? I hate throwing out the 'isms' and 'phobic' terms will nilly but I really think that is a case of transphobia.

I wouldn't be one bit happy if I had sex with someone I assumed was a woman and then was told otherwise, obviously I'm talking post op in this scenario.

I don't see why I should feel like I'm wrong for thinking this.

Barry Badrinath

wakka12 wrote: »

The only reason I find this annoying is because men who sleep with trans women don't mind until they find out the woman is trans. Why is such a big deal if you didnt even mind sleeping with her in the first place? I hate throwing out the 'isms' and 'phobic' terms will nilly but I really think that is a case of transphobia.

I am not educated enough on transgender issues or sexual reassignment surgery to argue either way about the article.

Personally, I would prefer to sleep with a biological woman, not a man who consciously identified and successfully transitioned into a woman.

It is my preference and I should not be labelled as any type of "phobe" as a result of that.

unseenfootage

wakka12 wrote: »

Because you're setting up different standards for trans women depending on how they look? Does that not seem a bit ridiculous? You say trans women who look masculine don't need to disclose because we can all tell, but trans women who pass as women need to because they can't go around deceiving people.

The only reason I find this annoying is because men who sleep with trans women don't mind until they find out the woman is trans. Why is such a big deal if you didnt even mind sleeping with her in the first place? I hate throwing out the 'isms' and 'phobic' terms will nilly but I really think that is a case of transphobia.

No matter how feminine a trans woman looks, "she" is not the same as a woman.

Samaris

Wouldn't bother me. If I was attracted enough to him (in my case) to want to sleep with him, I wouldn't suddenly start seeing him as a woman who tricked me. And I certainly wouldn't take it out on them if I wasn't weirded by it. A trans person (more especially male-to-female, it seems) puts themselves in a hugely vulnerable position, emotionally and often physically by admitting it. They've almost certainly been really worrying about how I would take it. It might take a bit of mental adjustment, but no more so, for me, than finding out they're bi and/or have slept with men.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

I don't care what anyone does as long as it doesn't impact me.
I would absolutely 100% need to know the original gender of someone I was intimate with. People have the right to do whatever they like to their bodies but I have the right to know who I'm letting near my body too. It's not all about trans rights, the rest of us have rights too.

ceadaoin.

I don't know about it being rape but it's morally wrong not to disclose IMO. I could understand not doing it for a one night stand where you will never see the person again but for a relationship, let the person make their own choice after knowing all the facts, for both partners sakes.

People have the right to refuse sex for whatever reason they want. Trying to label them bigots for doing so is tantamount to coercion IMO.

Samaris

I agree that it would be the morally honest thing to do - to have that conversation beforehand, that is - but I do think waving "rape" anywhere near it is the nuclear option. It's just not the right term and it cheapens the word.

A guy in Israel was convicted of rape for pretending to be Jewish to get his hole. I've read certain *ahem* activists the last few years say that misleading someone to get into their pants should be seen as not allowing consent to be possible. Someone having had different genitals would annoy me a lot more than finding out the car they're driving is a hire or that they actually don't go to Mass every week.

pragmatic1

Rape charges is very harsh. However, on the other hand if someone genuinely didn't know and weren't told beforehand, it could mess up their head big time. It would be a very ****ty thing to do to someone.

markupmales

If I get laid by *pretending to be loaded and cool is that rape too?

* Hypothetical. I am, of course, really loaded and cool.

Grayditch

Do I think people have the right to know? Sure.
Do I think it's rape if they don't disclose it? No.

Two Tone

Hetero woman myself and wouldn't care about a man who used to be a woman, but I can understand others caring about this, and maybe I wouldn't be comfortable if I were a man and with a woman who I find out used to be a man.

drunkmonkey

Grayditch wrote: »

Do I think people have the right to know? Sure.
Do I think it's rape if they don't disclose it? No.

It's something though and could have a profound effect on the victims up there with sexual assault/abuse/rape.

None of them are pretty words.

If we called it trans rape they'd be saying their being discriminated against, easier call it rape so prople realise how serious a thing it is to decieve someone in such a way sexually.
Whatever word they use it shouldn't be something nice and fluffy just to keep trans people happy, it's a serious deception.

This is about victims of sexual crimes not about transgender rights.

Mr. CooL ICE

It's dishonest, but it shouldn't be considered rape. If anything, it trivialises rape.

drunkmonkey

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

it trivialises rape.

How so? Calling it dishonest trivialises the crime.