Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

ukoda · 09-06-2016 05:14PM

BailMeOut wrote: »

true but a device with eircode could be installed in every ambulance, fire truck and garda car. We have the infrastructure in place and it now just needs to be adopted and used.

The national ambulance service have said that they use eircodes in their call centre to pin point the location in conjunction with the address and if it's deemed difficult to find, a dispatcher will guide the ambulance driver (or their 'co-pilot') over the phone to the location, giving them turn by turn directions (essentially their own personal human sat nav)

I would advocate for an automated dashboard system though, where the dispatcher can send the location to an onboard device in the ambulance that could guide the driver.

ukoda · 09-06-2016 05:30PM

plodder wrote: »

No question, the eircodes will be very useful for the dept. but why shouldn't they be useful to the parents group as well? Why shouldn't they be able to use this system that is costing us, the taxpayers 38 million? It is most unlikely that an ad-hoc group like this would be able to get an Eircode license.

Two counter examples.

1. With the UK postcode, the parents would just collect all of the postcodes and sort them immediately showing the rough locations of everyone and how many families live in each area. Publicly available maps would show what the local postcodes in a particular area are. This would give them independent information to bring to the DOE and argue their case, rather than just trusting any analysis done by the dept.

2. The suggested improvement of Eircode would achieve the same thing. If the 4.5k eircodes were mapped to small area codes using the free dataset you could then do the same sorting and mapping job as with 1. No special software or hi-tech skills are required - just access to the data.

How many parents do you think there would be?

500? Because for £20* between the 500 of them they can get everything (full ECAD database) you say they should have access to above from www.eircodesoftware.ie (no licence required)

*I'm using GBP currency in this example as that company happens to quote their prices in sterling on their website, the Irish ones don't seem to list any prices.

ukoda · 09-06-2016 05:34PM

There are now 26 different eircode providers all with various products.

12Phase · 09-06-2016 06:23PM

GPS is very cheap. Lives aren't.
It's an absolute disgrace if the HSE hasn't got a simple GPS device or a smartphone in every ambulance.

clewbays · 09-06-2016 06:50PM

See https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2016-04-14a.2376

It is strange that there have been no media reports about the use of Eircodes by the Emergency Call Answering Service or the National Ambulance Service?

ukoda · 09-06-2016 06:56PM

clewbays wrote: »

See https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2016-04-14a.2376

It is strange that there have been no media reports about the use of Eircodes by the Emergency Call Answering Service or the National Ambulance Service?

Not surprising really, complaining about "a disaster" is far more desirable reading these days

plodder · 09-06-2016 08:47PM

ukoda wrote: »

How many parents do you think there would be?

500? Because for £20* between the 500 of them they can get everything (full ECAD database) you say they should have access to above from www.eircodesoftware.ie (no licence required)

*I'm using GBP currency in this example as that company happens to quote their prices in sterling on their website, the Irish ones don't seem to list any prices.

It was 4,500. So, that would cost £180. It would be more economic to just buy a few maps and spend some hours looking up addresses and pin pointing them on the maps. So, eircode wouldn't be much use in this situation imo.

ukoda · 09-06-2016 08:54PM

plodder wrote: »

It was 4,500. So, that would cost £180. It would be more economic to just buy a few maps and spend some hours looking up addresses and pin pointing them on the maps. So, eircode wouldn't be much use in this situation imo.

It's about 5c each. Pretty economic in my opinion.

They'd get the ECAD data for every single address point... geo's SAC's, townland etc etc.

plodder · 09-06-2016 09:01PM

ukoda wrote: »

It's about 5c each. Pretty economic in my opinion.

They'd get the ECAD data for every single address point... geo's SAC's, townland etc etc.

Yeah 5 cent each. So, each family could send a cheque for 5 cent to pay for it or else one of the organisers pays the 180 pounds sterling. Or else they don't bother with it at all (Hint, that is what would happen)

ukoda · 09-06-2016 09:11PM

plodder wrote: »

Yeah 5 cent each. So, each family could send a cheque for 5 cent to pay for it or else one of the organisers pays the 180 pounds sterling. Or else they don't bother with it at all (Hint, that is what would happen)

Do they want to do it or not? If they want to do it they can. If they decide they can't be arsed then that's there decision.

Would you like me to present a viable solution to getting the money? Ok... It's likely they are part of a parents association which under the Education Act 1998 provides for them to fund raise for admin costs for their activities. So it's highly likely they already have a fund to draw down the payment on. If they don't, set one up as it has many benefits and much more likely for the gov to engage with them.

plodder · 09-06-2016 09:21PM

ukoda wrote: »

Do they want to do it or not? If they want to do it they can. If they decide they can't be arsed then that's there decision.

Would you like me to present a viable solution to getting the money? Ok... It's likely they are part of a parents association which under the Education Act 1998 provides for them to fund raise for admin costs for their activities. So it's highly likely they already have a fund to draw down the payment on. If they don't, set one up as it has many benefits and much more likely for the gov to engage with them.

I admire your can-do attitude. No matter how bad this system is, you'll make the best of it

I didn't know the education act allowed people to fundraise. To be honest, I would have thought that was a basic right independent of any statute. Not that that actually guarantees you a source of money anyway ....

ukoda · 09-06-2016 09:23PM

plodder wrote: »

I admire your can-do attitude. No matter how bad this system is, you'll make the best of it I didn't know the education act allowed people to fundraise. To be honest, I would have thought that was a basic right independent of any statute. Not that that actually guarantees you a source of money anyway ....

Some people look at something and immediately see the potential and oppurtinities

Other people look at the same thing and can only see problems and negatives

I'm glad I'm the first kind of person

plodder · 09-06-2016 09:53PM

ukoda wrote: »

Some people look at something and immediately see the potential and oppurtinities

Other people look at the same thing and can only see problems and negatives

I'm glad I'm the first kind of person

Like I said before, this attitude means accepting whatever rubbish is thrown your way, and making the best of it. We should aim higher than that and that means accepting mistakes were made and correcting them.

ukoda · 09-06-2016 10:04PM

plodder wrote: »

Like I said before, this attitude means accepting whatever rubbish is thrown your way, and making the best of it

No it doesn't. If they chose a loc8 code type national postcode I'd be raging. That type of system is plain wrong for a national postcode.

Let me spell this out for you so that it's clear.

I believe eircode to be a very good national postcode.

I don't think it's perfect. But I'm smart enough to know that no code can be perfect. So when people rubbish the code with nonsense arguements I challenge them.

plodder · 10-06-2016 06:17AM

ukoda wrote: »

No it doesn't. If they chose a loc8 code type national postcode I'd be raging. That type of system is plain wrong for a national postcode.

A geocode was not the best choice technically. But, if the state wasn't capable of getting a reasonable licensing system from geodirectory (an entity that it actually owns) then perhaps a completely free geocode would have been better.

I believe eircode to be a very good national postcode.

I don't think it's perfect. But I'm smart enough to know that no code can be perfect.

I don't think it's perfect either, but at least I'm suggesting improvements to it.

Sam Russell · 10-06-2016 10:11AM

plodder wrote: »

A geocode was not the best choice technically. But, if the state wasn't capable of getting a reasonable licensing system from geodirectory (an entity that it actually owns) then perhaps a completely free geocode would have been better.

I don't think it's perfect either, but at least I'm suggesting improvements to it.

The defects of the Eircode design imo are:

1. The routing code areas are far too large. They are based on a subset of An Posts postal towns, and the historic Dublin postal codes. 139 areas are used - and those areas vary in size geographically and in population hugely. At least one routing code is intersected by another so is not contiguous.

2. The second part of the code is purely random in all four positions such that my neighbours code bears no relationship to mine. The logic for this has not been explained but it makes it more difficult to remember mine and his.

3. It has done nothing to solve the non-unique addresses. It is basically a PPS number for properties. Now if you have the Eircode then you can find the property using a computer connected to the internet, but if you do not have the Eircode, then the location is impossible to find. This is not necessarily the fault of Eircode, but it was an opportunity lost to go some way to solve it. For example, many addresses in urban areas are non-unique because they refuse to number their houses or display their house names.

4. The licencing appears to not be necessary if a simpler design had been chosen. For example, the Swiss have a 5 digit code plus a two character canton identifier.

I know that Eircode is here to stay for at least a decade so by then it will be obvious if it has succeeded or not. Hopefully some move will be made to eradicate the non-unique addresses by then.

Carawaystick · 10-06-2016 11:08AM

~Another defect is the delay in getting an eircode for new builds.
They should be allocated on grant of pp, to allow deliveries of construction materiel.
Having a postcode and only using it for letters is silly.

HelgaWard · 10-06-2016 11:15AM

Carawaystick wrote: »

~Another defect is the delay in getting an eircode for new builds.
They should be allocated on grant of pp, to allow deliveries of construction materiel.
Having a postcode and only using it for letters is silly.

Totally agree, their current update process is to wait until the property receives mail, then the GeoDirectory gets updated, then an Eircode gets created. Too much of a delay and things being left to chance. If for example someone builds a new house, but directs their mail to a different house, there will be a huge delay before an Eircode is allocated. You should have to to apply for an Eircode when you have submitted a commencement notice to your planning authority. Developers building large developments should have to submit plans or the estate layout and Eircodes be requested accordingly.

FAILSAFE 00 · 10-06-2016 11:20AM

ukoda wrote: »

Some people look at something and immediately see the potential and oppurtinities

Other people look at the same thing and can only see problems and negatives

I'm glad I'm the first kind of person

You forgot the people that see things as they actually are. Not head in the clouds dreamers or dooms day apostles.

The system is as useful as tits on a bull.

Case closed.

ukoda · 10-06-2016 11:20AM

plodder wrote: »

but at least I'm suggesting improvements to it.

Sometimes. But to be fair, most of the time you're making up negatives that don't exist. I.e. "A group of parents wouldn't be able to look up eircodes because it's unlikely they'd get a licence." When in fact they can do it and don't need a licence at all. Of course you immediately found a problem with that too, which I could overcome. You then moved on to tell me my attitude means I'd except any old rubbish as a post code. Not true.

ukoda · 10-06-2016 11:22AM

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Case closed.

Oh right thanks for the update. Let the mods know to close the thread, you've given your opinion and that's it so. Case closed. Go ahead and ignore all the people and companies who find it useful. Bury your own head in the sand and ignore that.

HelgaWard · 10-06-2016 11:28AM

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

You forgot the people that see things as they actually are. Not head in the clouds dreamers or dooms day apostles.

The system is as useful as tits on a bull.

Case closed.

Using Eircodes constantly at work and have to say they are very useful. I think they need to make the data more open and accessible to all in order for their implementation to be really successful. Also think they need to implement a system whereby people/developers can apply for Eircodes to reduce the costs of keeping the system up to date. I think these changes will happen and it will ultimately become a really useful national piece of infrastructure.

FAILSAFE 00 · 10-06-2016 11:37AM

HelgaWard wrote: »

Using Eircodes constantly at work and have to say they are very useful. I think they need to make the data more open and accessible to all in order for their implementation to be really successful. Also think they need to implement a system whereby people/developers can apply for Eircodes to reduce the costs of keeping the system up to date. I think these changes will happen and it will ultimately become a really useful national piece of infrastructure.

It will absolutely become useful once it works however it's a shambles at the moment.
They need to become transparent and highlight what their strategy is to make it work accurately.

It's not working at the moment and that needs to be accepted and then worked on. Working for a few isn't enough for a system like this.

gctest50 · 10-06-2016 11:37AM

Sam Russell wrote: »

The defects of the Eircode design imo are:

1. The routing code areas are far too large. They are based on a subset of An Posts postal towns, and the historic Dublin postal codes. 139 areas are used - and those areas vary in size geographically and in population hugely. At least one routing code is intersected by another so is not contiguous.

They're routing codes, doesn't matter, put magic Eircode into magic website and it'll show you where it is

Sam Russell wrote: »

2. The second part of the code is purely random in all four positions such that my neighbours code bears no relationship to mine. The logic for this has not been explained but it makes it more difficult to remember mine and his.

Your neighbours mobile phone number probably bears no relationship to yours.

Sam Russell wrote: »

3. It has done nothing to solve the non-unique addresses. It is basically a PPS number for properties. Now if you have the Eircode then you can find the property using a computer connected to the internet, but if you do not have the Eircode, then the location is impossible to find. This is not necessarily the fault of Eircode, but it was an opportunity lost to go some way to solve it. For example, many addresses in urban areas are non-unique because they refuse to number their houses or display their house names.

If you don't have your neighbours mobile phone number, you'll have fun trying to call him on it.

Sam Russell wrote: »

4. The licencing appears to not be necessary if a simpler design had been chosen. For example, the Swiss have a 5 digit code plus a two character canton identifier.

I know that Eircode is here to stay for at least a decade so by then it will be obvious if it has succeeded or not. Hopefully some move will be made to eradicate the non-unique addresses by then.

Switzerland = about 15000 sq miles

plodder · 10-06-2016 12:00PM

gctest50 wrote: »

Your neighbours mobile phone number probably bears no relationship to yours.

Mobile phone numbers are not tied to locations, whereas postcodes are.

Random postcodes are much the same as if An Post insisted on random house numbers on the pretext that someone could build a new house in their garden, but where you had to license a commercial product from them, to find out the actual locations.

Nobody would stand for that.

ukoda · 10-06-2016 12:02PM

plodder wrote: »

Mobile phone numbers are not tied to locations, whereas postcodes are.

Random postcodes are much the same as if An Post insisted on random house numbers on the pretext that someone could build a new house in their garden, but where you had to license a commercial product from them, to find out the actual locations.

Nobody would stand for that.

No one has to licence a product to locate a postcodes location.

12Phase · 10-06-2016 12:06PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

The defects of the Eircode design imo are:

1. The routing code areas are far too large. They are based on a subset of An Posts postal towns, and the historic Dublin postal codes. 139 areas are used - and those areas vary in size geographically and in population hugely. At least one routing code is intersected by another so is not contiguous.

To a casual observer the routing codes are just totally illogical. They might make sense to some internal An Post systems but, they're utterly daft for any other purpose.

On top of that it's blatantly Dublin-centric. The codes in Dublin and surrounding areas are quite small and probably actually vaguely useful as you could follow them to a large degree on a map. There are at least 30 codes around the Dublin area.

The equivalent Greater Cork Area was given only a handful of codes and it is not 10 times smaller than greater Dublin area, by a long shot. Then there is basically one code for County Galway which is a vast area and Limerick City is also contained in one code covering a huge area.

So, basically they've just created a somewhat useful system for Dublin and to hell with the rest of the country.

You glance at an eircode in Galway and you basically know it's somewhere in the West of Ireland unless you actually key it into something to get the location or smaller areas from the database, which to be frank isn't very practical.

The system is deliberately hobbled and just reenforces the whole "Dublin" vs "Down the Country in Culshie Land" and the old notions of the Part 1 and Part 2 phone books etc etc. Even linking the eircodes in Dublin to a county letter, and giving every other area totally random looking letters just rubs people's faces in it even more.

I have already heard someone in Dublin refer to someone with a K67 code in North County Dublin as having a "Bog code".

plodder · 10-06-2016 12:10PM

ukoda wrote: »

Sometimes. But to be fair, most of the time you're making up negatives that don't exist. I.e. "A group of parents wouldn't be able to look up eircodes because it's unlikely they'd get a licence." When in fact they can do it and don't need a licence at all. Of course you immediately found a problem with that too, which I could overcome. You then moved on to tell me my attitude means I'd except any old rubbish as a post code. Not true.

I honestly can't tell sometimes whether you actually believe the stuff you write here. I'm beginning to think that you do.

Do you seriously think it is a practical proposition for the parents group we're talking about to spend £180 on eircode lookups, or worse that it is actually a good thing? They would also have to write software to do it. A group trying to setup a school????

They would be better off asking for people's fixed line phone numbers. Area codes and exchange codes would be a far simpler basis for determining locations that costs zero euro.

Or else they would do a rough sort based on the area part of address. I can think of half a dozen other things they might do. There is no earthly way that a group like that will write software and then spend over 200 euros on Eircode lookups. It's simply laughable to suggest they would.

ukoda · 10-06-2016 12:12PM

plodder wrote: »

I honestly can't tell sometimes whether you actually believe the stuff you write here. I'm beginning to think that you do.

Do you seriously think it is a practical proposition for the parents group we're talking about to spend £180 on eircode lookups, or worse that it is actually a good thing? They would also have to write software to do it. A group trying to setup a school????

They would be better off asking for people's fixed line phone numbers. Area codes and exchange codes would be a far simpler basis for determining locations that costs zero euro.

Or else they would do a rough sort based on the area part of address. I can think of half a dozen other things they might do. There is no earthly way that a group like that will write software and then spend over 200 euros on Eircode lookups. It's simply laughable to suggest they would.

You've missed the point. I said they CAN do it. Which you said they couldn't, and you were wrong.

It's up to them what they WANT to do.

12Phase · 10-06-2016 12:16PM

Plodder, while the phone number would give you a unique ID, beyond the actual area code, the local number's first few digits no longer mean much as numbers are just assigned to end points almost like the way URLs are ultimately pointing towards an IP address and that can be changed depending on how the DNS database is setup.

In older technology, the number was actually used directly to route the call as the network had little intelligence. That hasn't been the case for a long time. If you are on any provider that isn't using OpenEir exchanges, you could have any number in any given area code.

When you dial a number, the exchange actually performs a look up equivalent to what a browser does with a DNS server to figure out how to route the call.

Also, the % of households with active voice landlines is shrinking every day.

Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

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